Ashara's "Boyfriend"

[Megorova]

On 24.11.2017 at 9:42 PM, Consigliere said:

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Finally, being his brother, Eddard would know Brandon much better than anyone else, save a few people like other family members or Barbrey. Do we once see Eddard thinking or talking badly about Brandon?

Yes, we do have some evidence:

“She finished for him. “… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon.”
That brought a bitter twist to Ned’s mouth. “Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King’s Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me.”

Seems to me that Ned was just bitter because of Cat's words, her reminder to him that she was supposed to marry with Brandon. Probably over those 15+ years, since Brandon's death, she often was nagging Ned about various things at which Brandon was supposedly better. Even after their marriage, first few years she still loved Brandon, and reproached Ned for being NOT-Brandon. So over years, for Ned it already became an old song, and not the kind he likes. That's why bitterness towards Brandon. Which doesn't actually mean, that he had anything against Brandon, when he was alive.

On 24.11.2017 at 9:42 PM, Consigliere said:

There is no evidence to suggest Ned wanted to dance with Ashara, only that he was too shy to dance with anyone. Once again, Ned being in love with Ashara but banging Wylla makes absolutely no sense given the character that Martin established

If he was too shy to ask anyone for a dance, I don't imagine how could he go after that and bang Ashara, just a few hours after.

On 24.11.2017 at 10:17 PM, maudisdottir said:

In Barbrey's own words:

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Brandon loved his sword. He loved to hone it. 'I want it sharp enough to shave the hair from a woman's cunt' he used to say. And how he loved to use it. 'A bloody sword is a beautiful thing,' he told me once."

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Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. I am old now, a dried-up thing, too long a widow, but I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing.

Brandon had a thing for deflowering virgins.

She could have lied. One of possible reasons why - she liked him and tried to seduce him, but he said no to her, and that he is engaged and in love with his fiancee Cat Tully. Thus this woman has a grudge, because Brandon rejected her.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

45 minutes ago, Megorova said:

That because he may know who was it, the person that dishonored Ashara - Howland Reed

With respect, there's tin foil and then there's tin foil. Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

So that leaves the odds at 5 on 3. 

This is why I find it so shocking that all 3 Kingsguard died, especially when the dialogue between Ned and all 3 seems to indicate that they thought they might have been able to turn the tide on the Trident had they been there.

Howland and Ned survived. Ned fought with Arthur and supposedly killed him.

Aside from Ned and Arthur there was 6 Ned's people vs 2 Kingsguards.

3 vs 1. They killed 2 Kingsguards. Maybe some of them were also killed. Though out of those 3, at least 1 of Ned's people came out alive from first duel 3 on 1 Kingsguard.

So then those 2, and one of them is Howland, joined Ned in his fight against Arthur. One of them was killed, and Ned with Howland offed Arthur.

3 hours ago, Faera said:

Together with the fact that it wasn't single combat but seven-facing-three and Ned told Bran that Arthur Dayne would have killed him but for Howland -- it isn't hard to imagine him doing to Arthur what Meera did to Summer or Sam, i.e. ensnared him in a net. Not an overly glorious way for the greatest sword in the realm to go out.

That's why Ned, for the sake of Arthur's family, lied to everyone that he has beat him fair and square.

[maudisdottir]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

One of possible reasons why - she liked him and tried to seduce him, but he said no to her, and that he is engaged and in love with his fiancee Cat Tull

Can you quote anything from the books to prove that Brandon was in love with Cat? You’ve said that a couple of times but I don’t remember that being stated in the text.

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Don't remember Barristan saying anything like that, also it could actually mean different things in different context.

I think there was only one Lord, to whom in books could be made referrings as to "mud". And that's Howland Reed, because he's from swamps.

If you don't remember the context, it's no use speculating about real mud men because that's totally not what Barristan said:

Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father’s son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl’s heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.
You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.

See? "Mud" here has nothing to do with crannogmen but symbolizes a plain but solid, reliable guy, contrasted to a dashing but dangerous type who attention brings nothing good. Given what happened to Ashara, she, too, being a young girl, chose fire. 

Also, look at the description following the quote: 

Ser Gerris was all his prince was not: tall and lean and comely, with a swordsman’s grace and a courtier’s wit. Selmy did not doubt that many a Dornish maiden had run her fingers through that sun-streaked hair and kissed that teasing smile off his lips. If this one had been the prince, things might have gone elsewise, he could not help but think … but there was something a bit too pleasant about Drinkwater for his taste. False coin, the old knight thought. He had known such men before.

Gerris is an example of "fire" - handsome, perfect figure, charming. Just like Brandon.

 

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that Ashara fell in love, or at least had sex, that night after Tournament, with Howland Reed. He was watching her entire evening, so it's possible that after celebrations ended, the two of them went together to her tent, and had sex.

A complete absence of quotes supporting this regardless, can you explain why someone with Ashara's looks and social position would want to have sex with a completely meaningless crannogman no taller than a child, when there were way more attractive men around and when the two never even interacted?

 

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Several years later, Jyana gives birth to two boys. One of them has too unusual for those lands features, to pass as cranogmen. Thus Howland and Jyana summon Wylla from Winterfell, and give this baby to her. She goes with him to Starfall, explains to Daynes who the baby is, and from then on he is Edric Dayne. While his brother, that his parents kept, is Jojen Reed.

And who cares about crannogmen features? It's not like anyone visits crannogmen, ever. Because Greywater Watch cannot be found, remember?

Not to mention, how do you imagine that the Daynes planted this newly arriving child as a heir to the House? Wylla comes back with a baby, and Lord of Starfall says, yeah,a wonderful idea to pass him off as my heir, after people saw you and him arrive in the castle and everyone and their mother knows that my ife was not pregnant? Come on. 

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's why Edric Dayne told Arya, that he and Jon Snow are milk brother.

Milk brothers are people nursed by the same wetnurse. No convoluted story required.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Based on what we know about Ned, and how GRRM portrayed him in the books, the only person with whom Ned ever had sex, was his wife Cat.

That is finally something we can agree on. The funny thing is that he thinks so himself in his very first PoV - that unlike Robert, he is not the type to seek carnal pleasures - but people rarely realize what it means.

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Characters in the books though so, because of those rumours. Though it doesn't mean that the rumours were truthful.

I was illustrating how the rumours came into existence, not that I believe them for a second

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

For example who told to people that Ned came to Starfall, after events at Tower of Joy?

Ned himself? He could have lied to everyone about it. Because he had to somehow explain from where did he took the baby.

Or he didn't, because he never travelled with any baby. Besides, he is the Lord of Winterfell. The only person to whom he has to explain himself is Robert. To others, he is not obliged to tell anything.

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

3 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Can you quote anything from the books to prove that Brandon was in love with Cat? You’ve said that a couple of times but I don’t remember that being stated in the text.

I would also like to see some quotes as I don't remember this either.

5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Even after their marriage, first few years she still loved Brandon, and reproached Ned for being NOT-Brandon. So over years, for Ned it already became an old song, and not the kind he likes. That's why bitterness towards Brandon.

Where is the proof of this as well? I don't even remember Catelyn ever saying she was "in love" with Brandon even when he was alive. Just that he was more handsome and charming then Ned. 

[Corvo the Crow]

9 hours ago, Megorova said:

Seems to me that Ned was just bitter because of Cat's words, her reminder to him that she was supposed to marry with Brandon. Probably over those 15+ years, since Brandon's death, she often was nagging Ned about various things at which Brandon was supposedly better. Even after their marriage, first few years she still loved Brandon, and reproached Ned for being NOT-Brandon. So over years, for Ned it already became an old song, and not the kind he likes. That's why bitterness towards Brandon. Which doesn't actually mean, that he had anything against Brandon, when he was alive.

I agree, mostly. He was bitter but I don't think because it was all meant for Brandon and Catelyn was going to marry him. He says it himself he didn't want any of this. Think of Stannis, he only becomes kings because it is his duty. His decision on whether to choose his king or family was a very hard one for him. Ned's situation is quite similar I think. He is the second, dutiful son that tries to fill his brother's place as it is his duty with his brother died with no heir.

Not only he was fine with Brandon when he was alive, perhaps he is bitter about him being a hothead going to his grave and leaving Ned in an undesirable situation.

 

[Bullrout]

On 11/23/2017 at 7:02 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Who was the man who dishonored Ashara Dayne?  I believe the identity of this man will be important to the plot going forward.  There are many possible men who could have done this but the unusual suspects will almost certainly be sons of the Great Houses or, dare I say it, from the royal household itself.  We need to decide between two forks in the road before we can proceed with the discussion.  We have to decide what Barristan meant by - dishonor.  This is a pretty vague term with a wide breadth of meaning coming from an honorable man like Ser Barristan Selmy.  It can mean something as innocuous as love that was not reciprocated by the man.  However, I believe it was more than that.  It was something upsetting enough to make Ashara turn to a stranger for emotional support.  This second fork in the road is the one that I will pursue.  The dishonor was of a sexual nature that resulted in Ashara getting pregnant. 

The Unusual Suspects

1 - King Aerys Targaryen. 

Without doubt, he is the only person in the whole kingdom who is above the law.  Aerys was the law.  By definition, Aerys cannot do anything unlawful.  The kingdom belonged to the Targaryens and Aerys was the king at the time.  Every member of every noble house in the kingdom was his subject.  Aerys can do what he will with Ashara and get away with it. 

I do not think it was Aerys.  Don't you think the Starks and the Baratheons will still, up to the present, still blame Aerys?  Sure they would have.  Robert took the throne and he can (and did) slander every member of House Targaryen.  Every sin, minor or major, committed by the Targaryens were used by the Baratheon-Stark publicity machine.  The fact that they did not pin this on Aerys tells me that the king is not guilty.

2 - Rhaegar Targaryen.

Rhaegar was not above the law.  He was still a subject of the king.  However, for the same reasons that I struck Aerys from the list of suspects, I will do the same for Rhaegar.  Ned would think negatively of Rhaegar, even curse him, if the prince had dishonored Ashara. 

3 - Oberyn Martell.

The Martells are the lords of the Daynes.  So if Brandon can get away with dishonoring Barbrey Dustin, it is logical to assume that Oberyn can get away with dishonoring Ashara.  We need to understand that the actual dishonoring need not have taken place at Harrenhal.  The copulation took place before and Harrenhal was the place where it became public.  The date of the scandal is not when it happened but when it became public.  When the truth came out.  Oberyn need not be present at Harrenhal for the scandal to become public. 

4 - Brandon Stark.

The main suspect.  Brandon has a pattern of deflowering girls and leaving them to deal with the aftermath.  A small aftermath with Barbrey.  A bun baking in the oven with Ashara.  The actual act of the dishonor took place at Harrenhal.  Brandon goes to look for Ashara to speak on his brother's behalf.  He took it upon himself to enjoy Ashara and kicks her out of bed after his satisfaction.  Oh Ned!  Poor Ned.  Ned the cleaner.  Ned, the janitor of House Stark.  He takes it upon himself to comfort the distraught Ashara.  Have we not seen Ned clean up his family's mess repeatedly!  Who else can clean up and hide the scandal and make it go away, except a Stark, with the help of the Baratheon administration.  The Starks have a history of sweeping embarrassing family histories under the rug.  The Night's KIng was a Stark and yet that is not a well-known fact because it was swept under the rug centuries ago.

There is a chance that the baby from Harrenhal made it.  Jon Snow.  Ned cleans up after his brother and sister again.  He takes Lyanna's baby from the Tower of Joy and brings it to Starfall.  A baby trade was done.  Ned takes his brother's son north with him.  The one with the elongated appearance who could easily pass for his bastard.  The other one, from Lyanna, could not and was sent overseas with a disguised Ashara.  Similar to what Jon did later with the Rayder baby and the Craster baby.  A baby swap to protect one of the children from harm.  Both boys are bastards but Robert was out to kill all of the Targaryens so Ned was not about to take that chance after he saw what happened to Princess Rhaenys and the real Prince Aegon. 

 

 

Brandon was the swordsman in the family and he sure liked to use his sword on the ladies.  Yeah it was Brandon who took advantage of Ashara at the tournament.   R+L= young Griff.  N+A=J. 

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Bullrout said:

Brandon was the swordsman in the family and he sure liked to use his sword on the ladies.  Yeah it was Brandon who took advantage of Ashara at the tournament.   R+L= young Griff.  N+A=J. 

Thought that young Griff is Elia’s son. What are the odds of a Northman and a Stony Dornish having a Valyrian child?

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

It's unlikely that Ashara advertised the fact that she had sex with someone. So if it did became known, then most likely it happened because she became pregnant afterwards. And when people at court realised this, her family, or maybe her princess (Elia whose lady-in-waiting Ashara was) has sent her back home, dismissed her from court. Otherwise at time when rebellion began, she was supposed to be at Dragonstone alongside Elia. Tournament was in 281, so even if Ashara did had a fling with Ned, their baby was born in 281 or 282, not like Jon in 283. Could be that she miscarried, or the baby was born dead, thus there wasn't a living baby from that encounter.

It was said in the books that Lyanna was kidnapped a year (or nearly a year) after Tournament. By that time, if Ashara became pregnant at Harrenhall, she would have already given birth. Ned married with Cat at least one month after Lyanna's kidnapping. So the age difference between Robb and Ashara's baby would be 10+ months.

Robb Stark was engaged with Frey girl. He had sex with Westerling girl. And married with her the morning after. Even though she wasn't pregnant (at least not yet).

Now lets look what was S-Brothers situations: Brandon was engaged with Cat, Ned was totally free.

If Brandon had sex with Ashara, and furthermore she became pregnant, then why didn't he broke his engagement with Cat, and married with Ashara, like Robb did? Or was Brandon a less decent person than his nephew? Also in this case they could have offered to Tullys, to marry Cat with next Stark - Ned. Which is exactly what happened when Brandon became "unavailable".

If Ned and Ashara fell in love, and had sex, why they didn't married? Why Ned didn't went to her family with marriage proposal? Ashara wasn't engaged with anyone.

Also, seems that people are forgetting this part - Brandon was in love with Cat. They weren't only engaged, they were also in love. So why would he have sex with Ashara, especially if he was in love and engaged with another girl, and his brother liked Ashara?

I never said Ashara went out and advertised that she slept with someone. Only that Barristan believes Ashara was dishonored at HH and he thinks it was a Stark.  

[Faera]

19 hours ago, Megorova said:

She could have lied. One of possible reasons why - she liked him and tried to seduce him, but he said no to her, and that he is engaged and in love with his fiancee Cat Tully. Thus this woman has a grudge, because Brandon rejected her.

We have no reason to believe Barb was lying. She isn't trust worthy but only in regards to how far her loyalty to Roose goes when Ramsay is involved, not as to whether she loved Brandon or not. She gains little from lying about her relationship with Brandon. Besides, if she had a grudge against Brandon for supposedly rejecting her -- why does she count him among the only Starks she liked? No, I believe Barb is telling the truth. In this, at least.
 

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

They married, and she did had a baby - daughter Meera, that she gave birth to, after events at Harrenhall, and the baby's father was Howland.

Aah! As much as I love the tin-foil conspiracy theories that Ashara is Jyana and that she and Howland will crawl out of the woodwork to explain everything at some point, (bonus points if they are both currently disguised as someone else), and Mance is Arthur and all that stuff... there is literally nothing to back it up. Like, at all. Don't get me wrong, if it turned out to be true, it would be hilarious!

I don't see it, though. The only evidence for the Ashara-Jyana connection is that both women had daughters, possibly around the same time though we can't be sure. I also don't get what Ashara's motivation would be for faking her her death was in this series of events.

A huge part of why I don't think Ned has any romantic connection to Ashara at Harrenhal is because he was sharing his tent with Howland. Unless they were having a threesome in there, neither man is likely her babydaddy. 

Plus, if the maid with "the laughing purple eyes" was Meera's mother, wouldn't there be some hint of it in her Laughing Tree story? I know Bran and Hodor didn't want a love story but still, the 'How I Met Your Mother' aspect would be a big deal for the Reed kids. Yet they haven't even mentioned their mother once. The only mention of Ashara in connection to Howland is... he saw her. Hawt! And might have breathed the same air a soft her, like, twice. Twice! Barristan certain makes no indication he suspects Ashara's lover was anyone other than "Stark".

All of this besides, the timeline doesn't work. Meera is far too young to have been conceived at Harrenhal because she was born in 283. Even if the argument is she was conceived after and was Ashara's supposed stillborn daughter at Starfall, when are they supposed to have conceived her if Howland was in the North/Riverlands during the war while Ashara was presumably at Dragonstone, King's Landing or Starfall? It doesn't quite work with her age.

As for all that Edric Dayne stuff... my head hurts. I don't even know where to begin with that.

[The Commentator]

On 11/23/2017 at 7:02 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

 

I spent some time considering these possibilities and believe the actual dishonor did take place at Harrenhal.  I don't think Ashara came to Harrenhal already pregnant.   The way she was described indicated a person free of care and not beaten down with worry.  Laughing purple eyes!  Dancing with many men.  That doesn't appear depressed to me. 

Brandon is the likeliest of your suspects.  He has done it before with Barbrey Dustin.  No reason to believe he wouldn't do the same to Ashara Dayne.  It is possible that Jon is the son of that moment of passion. 

[The Commentator]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Thought that young Griff is Elia’s son. What are the odds of a Northman and a Stony Dornish having a Valyrian child?

Griff can be the son of a possible Rhaegar+Lyanna mating.  I think it likely IF a Rhaegar and Lyanna mating took place.  And that is not certain to have taken place.  But Rhaegar being the dad would explain the reddish-blonde hair and his good looks. 

[maudisdottir]

9 hours ago, Bullrout said:

Brandon was the swordsman in the family and he sure liked to use his sword on the ladies.  Yeah it was Brandon who took advantage of Ashara at the tournament.   R+L= young Griff.  N+A=J. 

If Brandon was the one who took advantage of Ashara, how do you get to N+A=J?

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Milk brothers are people nursed by the same wetnurse. No convoluted story required.

 

Example 1: woman has an infant son. She was hired by a family, to be wet nurse for their infant son. Her son and that boy are milk brothers.

Example 2: woman was hired by a family to be wet nurse for their infant son. Several years later she was hired by another family, to be wet nurse of their son. Thus this boys are milk brothers, even though neither of them are not her own baby.  

Edric thinks that his and Jon's case are example 1, while in reality their case is example 2. Thus Edric is only partially right.

5 hours ago, Faera said:

theories that Ashara is Jyana and that she and Howland will crawl out of the woodwork

there is literally nothing to back it up. Like, at all.

There are clues, but they are very subtle, just a slight innuendos, that form a picture only when they are combined together, not the kind of clues from which the truth will become instantly obvious to readers. It will be too long to explain, and also I don't know English language well enough, to convey those innuendos.

I could be wrong, maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there. Though I think that I'm right. At least about Ashara not dying at Starfall. So we'll have to wait for next book and see what is what.

[PrettyPig]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 5:38 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Also Martin keeps hinting at 2 brothers warring for their sister

 

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 5:46 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

No Brandon vs Eddard for Ashara doesn't count lol 

Neither are Targaryens and Ashara isn't their sister. The cyclic story just has to do with the Dragon family of which House Baratheon is apart of. 

I think the cycle covers more than that.   In fact, if you look closely at the current story, there's somewhat of an inverse parallel to two guys fighting over a sister - two sisters in conflict over a single guy.   Difference here being that "sisters" isn't necessarily in the blood relative sense...it can apply to other sororal relationships as well - practitioners of a faith, members of an organization, etc.

The one that intrigues me most is a very, VERY subtle sororal connection between Ashara Dayne and Lyanna Stark; not only are they connected with each other, these two "sisters" have Ned in the middle.   This is highlighted in the Fisherman's Daughter story when you really look closely at it - ironically, with Ned/Lyanna/Ashara there's a nifty mirror here of Aegon the Conqueror and his two sisters: one light, one dark.    I believe this pseudo-sibling relationship will come to light in future books (provided we ever get them).   

Also, fwiw, I am firmly in the camp of "Ashara was dishonored by Rhaegar at ToHH".  I wrote about it here if you are interested in some thoughts that align with yours about it.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 11/23/2017 at 4:02 PM, Aline de Gavrillac said:

There is a chance that the baby from Harrenhal made it.  Jon Snow. 

Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It is known 

[AlaskanSandman]

1 hour ago, PrettyPig said:

 

I think the cycle covers more than that.   In fact, if you look closely at the current story, there's somewhat of an inverse parallel to two guys fighting over a sister - two sisters in conflict over a single guy.   Difference here being that "sisters" isn't necessarily in the blood relative sense...it can apply to other sororal relationships as well - practitioners of a faith, members of an organization, etc.

The one that intrigues me most is a very, VERY subtle sororal connection between Ashara Dayne and Lyanna Stark; not only are they connected with each other, these two "sisters" have Ned in the middle.   This is highlighted in the Fisherman's Daughter story when you really look closely at it - ironically, with Ned/Lyanna/Ashara there's a nifty mirror here of Aegon the Conqueror and his two sisters: one light, one dark.    I believe this pseudo-sibling relationship will come to light in future books (provided we ever get them).   

Also, fwiw, I am firmly in the camp of "Ashara was dishonored by Rhaegar at ToHH".  I wrote about it here if you are interested in some thoughts that align with yours about it.

Oh there is definitely an inverse as ive mentioned else where with Aegon and Rhaenys vs Visenya and one some one else pointed out with Rhae and Aegon V and (Cant remember sister off hand).

And absolutely! Id love to check it out!!  meet more resistance here than people agreeing hahah If your also interested, check out some of my other threads. I have my own thoughts about Valyrian Steel and Dawn among other things. Im also working on putting out a couple new threads. One covering red hair and "kissed by fire", "Andals of Valyria", and "Valyria and Westeros". Ill be covering a few things i havn't seen covered yet (not that they havn't tho).

[AlaskanSandman]

45 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. It is known 

Agreed. This is one of the least interesting points of debate IMO. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Agreed. This is one of the least interesting points of debate IMO. 

but people still hold out