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Who killed Joffrey?

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@John Suburbs

As you seem to remember the scene so well

Is it true that the wine changes colour to purple (the wine inside the chalice)? Doesn t Tyrion somehow destroy the cask of the wine making it impossible to know if the rest of the wine was poisoned? 

Edited by divica

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17 hours ago, divica said:

@John Suburbs

As you seem to remember the scene so well

Is it true that the wine changes colour to purple (the wine inside the chalice)? Doesn t Tyrion somehow destroy the cask of the wine making it impossible to know if the rest of the wine was poisoned? 

The wine appears purple running down Joffrey's chin, then it appears red when spilled on the dais, then deep purple in the chalice at the end of the scene. Tyrion dumps the last bit of wine out just before Cersei accuses him of murder.

I can easily explain this under the pie scenario: the purple on Joffrey's chin is the result of a thin sheen of red wine translucent against his pale while skin illuminated by orange candle- and torchlight reflecting off a golden chalice -- of course this is going to look purple. The red on the dais is due to the fact that Joffrey only barfed the poison back into the chalice seconds before, while the deep purple was caused by the remnants of poisoned pie/saliva/gook sitting in a half-inch of wine.

Under the wine theory, however, this scene is impossible. The crystal was supposedly dropped into the chalice right as the doves were taking flight, which is the only time the poisoner would have even the slightest chance of having the entire room's gaze directed elsewhere. So it has had a good 20 or so seconds to dissolve, which should be more than enough time given that speed is of the essence when attempting to kill a powerful person in this way -- if it takes longer than a second or two, then nobody would be using this poison as a crystal, they'd crush it into a powder. I'd be surprised if the crystal even made it to the bottom of the chalice.

Then Tyrion drags the chalice across the table, stirring up the contents; Joffrey yanks it out of Tyrion's hands, stirring them up even more; then he up-ends the chalice to start chugging it -- so by now the poison should be well and thoroughly distributed throughout the contents of the chalice and the wine should be as deep purple as it can get. The only way to see red on the dais and then deep purple at the end is if someone were to add more poison to the chalice after Joffrey dropped it, and this is patently absurd. Why would anyone feel the need to do that now that the victim is already choking?

There's nothing in the text about the cask, nor is it reasonable to suspect that it was poisoned. Dozens, if not hundreds, of people would already be dead if that were the case.

Are you talking about the flagon that Tyrion grabbed from a serving girl when he filled up the chalice? That couldn't have been poisoned either because Joffrey takes a big drink and then remains perfectly well during the entire cutting ceremony. To wine fanatics, of course, this means nothing because, after all, it's not like we can see how much time has elapsed in a scene that is unfolding moment-by-moment right on the page. This is how they imagine Cressen's poisoning taking 20 minutes or more while the entire wedding scene from the dwarf joust to the end happens in mere seconds.

 

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19 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The wine appears purple running down Joffrey's chin, then it appears red when spilled on the dais, then deep purple in the chalice at the end of the scene. Tyrion dumps the last bit of wine out just before Cersei accuses him of murder.

I can easily explain this under the pie scenario: the purple on Joffrey's chin is the result of a thin sheen of red wine translucent against his pale while skin illuminated by orange candle- and torchlight reflecting off a golden chalice -- of course this is going to look purple. The red on the dais is due to the fact that Joffrey only barfed the poison back into the chalice seconds before, while the deep purple was caused by the remnants of poisoned pie/saliva/gook sitting in a half-inch of wine.

Under the wine theory, however, this scene is impossible. The crystal was supposedly dropped into the chalice right as the doves were taking flight, which is the only time the poisoner would have even the slightest chance of having the entire room's gaze directed elsewhere. So it has had a good 20 or so seconds to dissolve, which should be more than enough time given that speed is of the essence when attempting to kill a powerful person in this way -- if it takes longer than a second or two, then nobody would be using this poison as a crystal, they'd crush it into a powder. I'd be surprised if the crystal even made it to the bottom of the chalice.

Then Tyrion drags the chalice across the table, stirring up the contents; Joffrey yanks it out of Tyrion's hands, stirring them up even more; then he up-ends the chalice to start chugging it -- so by now the poison should be well and thoroughly distributed throughout the contents of the chalice and the wine should be as deep purple as it can get. The only way to see red on the dais and then deep purple at the end is if someone were to add more poison to the chalice after Joffrey dropped it, and this is patently absurd. Why would anyone feel the need to do that now that the victim is already choking?

There's nothing in the text about the cask, nor is it reasonable to suspect that it was poisoned. Dozens, if not hundreds, of people would already be dead if that were the case.

Are you talking about the flagon that Tyrion grabbed from a serving girl when he filled up the chalice? That couldn't have been poisoned either because Joffrey takes a big drink and then remains perfectly well during the entire cutting ceremony. To wine fanatics, of course, this means nothing because, after all, it's not like we can see how much time has elapsed in a scene that is unfolding moment-by-moment right on the page. This is how they imagine Cressen's poisoning taking 20 minutes or more while the entire wedding scene from the dwarf joust to the end happens in mere seconds.

 

I found the quote:

Quote

"It's, kof, the pie, noth—kof, pie." Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. "I, kof, I can't, kof kof kof kof . . ." The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais.

Isn t it easier to think that joffrey is drinking red wine with purple colour ? I am not an english native speaker but when it is written red wine it can mean that the wine is red or that it is a type of wine (and therefore doesn t need to be red) right? So why can t joff be drinking purple red wine? 

from wikipedia

Quote

Red wine is a type of wine made from dark-colored (black) grape varieties. The actual color of the wine can range from intense violet, typical of young wines, through to brick red for mature wines and brown for older red wines.

So the colour of the wine is basically a non argumente right?

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17 hours ago, divica said:

I found the quote:

Isn t it easier to think that joffrey is drinking red wine with purple colour ? I am not an english native speaker but when it is written red wine it can mean that the wine is red or that it is a type of wine (and therefore doesn t need to be red) right? So why can t joff be drinking purple red wine? 

from wikipedia

So the colour of the wine is basically a non argumente right?

The color of the wine is not central to the theory. It merely discredits the completely unsupported idea that Cressen's wine had more poison.

At the end of the scene, Tyrion notes that the wine is not just purple, but "deep purple." At many other times, wine is described as "red." So when Tyrion sees "red" wine earlier in the feast and then more "red" wine spilling over the dais, then the logical conclusion is that the wine is a perfectly ordinary color at this point, even if it is naturally purplish. At the end, the "deep purple" is a clear indication that the color is very strange -- otherwise he would have just seen a half-inch of wine that he would describe as red.

Meanwhile, Cressen sees nothing unusual about his wine at all. So if we are to use the text to draw any conclusion as to whose wine had more poison, then it was clearly Joffrey's.

But you are right when you say the color of the wine is a non-argument. The fact is that mixing the poison into more wine is not going to delay its affect on the body, it will only weaken its intensity. To understand this, we have to agree on a basic fact about the strangler: it works directly on contact with the muscles of the throat. It does not pass by the throat, enter the stomach, seep into the bloodstream and then collect in the throat. If it did, then neither victim would see the first affects for at least a minute. So in this way, the strangler is like ammonia or bleach, not arsenic or snake venom.

We do not have a real-world strangler, but we can look at how something like ammonia would react with the body if mixed with different quantities of water. Imagine drinking an ounce of pure ammonia. It would burn your throat instantly, and you might even die. If you poured the ounce into a large glass of water, it would still burn you instantly but not as badly, and you might survive. If you were to place a single drop of ammonia in a large glass of water, it would still burn you wherever it came in contact with your skin but the affect would be so small that you might not even notice. But then, a few seconds later, the ammonia would not reconcentrate itself inside your body to burn your throat. That is scientifically impossible.

So even if Joffrey's wine did have less poison, this would not delay his choking, it would only lessen its intensity. And clearly this did not happen because once the poison does start to work on Joffrey, the affect is powerful and fatal.

So, to sum it all up, the text does not support the idea that Cressen's wine had more poison -- in fact, it points to the exact opposite conclusion -- and even if it did, this still would not explain why Joffrey's poison took so long to start working.

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4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The color of the wine is not central to the theory. It merely discredits the completely unsupported idea that Cressen's wine had more poison.

At the end of the scene, Tyrion notes that the wine is not just purple, but "deep purple." At many other times, wine is described as "red." So when Tyrion sees "red" wine earlier in the feast and then more "red" wine spilling over the dais, then the logical conclusion is that the wine is a perfectly ordinary color at this point, even if it is naturally purplish. At the end, the "deep purple" is a clear indication that the color is very strange -- otherwise he would have just seen a half-inch of wine that he would describe as red.

Meanwhile, Cressen sees nothing unusual about his wine at all. So if we are to use the text to draw any conclusion as to whose wine had more poison, then it was clearly Joffrey's.

But you are right when you say the color of the wine is a non-argument. The fact is that mixing the poison into more wine is not going to delay its affect on the body, it will only weaken its intensity. To understand this, we have to agree on a basic fact about the strangler: it works directly on contact with the muscles of the throat. It does not pass by the throat, enter the stomach, seep into the bloodstream and then collect in the throat. If it did, then neither victim would see the first affects for at least a minute. So in this way, the strangler is like ammonia or bleach, not arsenic or snake venom.

We do not have a real-world strangler, but we can look at how something like ammonia would react with the body if mixed with different quantities of water. Imagine drinking an ounce of pure ammonia. It would burn your throat instantly, and you might even die. If you poured the ounce into a large glass of water, it would still burn you instantly but not as badly, and you might survive. If you were to place a single drop of ammonia in a large glass of water, it would still burn you wherever it came in contact with your skin but the affect would be so small that you might not even notice. But then, a few seconds later, the ammonia would not reconcentrate itself inside your body to burn your throat. That is scientifically impossible.

So even if Joffrey's wine did have less poison, this would not delay his choking, it would only lessen its intensity. And clearly this did not happen because once the poison does start to work on Joffrey, the affect is powerful and fatal.

So, to sum it all up, the text does not support the idea that Cressen's wine had more poison -- in fact, it points to the exact opposite conclusion -- and even if it did, this still would not explain why Joffrey's poison took so long to start working.

I agree. It is just that I have read several people talking about the poison being in the wine because it changes colors from red to purple. And that this happens because the poison is dissolved in the cup.

However if we consider that the wine was purple from the beguining then there is virtually no argument for the poison being in the wine. At most people can say that Cressen was poisoned with the same poison dissolved in wine and died a similar death. However as you have described the text shows how differently joffrey and cressen reacted to drinking their wine... The similar behaviour only happens when joffrey eats the pie.

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On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 11:16 AM, divica said:

I agree. It is just that I have read several people talking about the poison being in the wine because it changes colors from red to purple. And that this happens because the poison is dissolved in the cup.

However if we consider that the wine was purple from the beguining then there is virtually no argument for the poison being in the wine. At most people can say that Cressen was poisoned with the same poison dissolved in wine and died a similar death. However as you have described the text shows how differently joffrey and cressen reacted to drinking their wine... The similar behaviour only happens when joffrey eats the pie.

Also note that this lengthy explanation is needed just to unravel one tiny piece of this puzzle -- the difference between the two poisonings. It takes equally long, or longer, to lay out the problems with the logistics of poisoning the chalice, the motivations of the principal plotters, the geo-politics that is driving all of this, plus the numerous tiny details that rule out the wine.

This is why so few people understand what really happened. It's big, complicated and requires real effort on the part of the reader to look deep into the subtext to find the truth. Most people would rather shrug and say that because it is so complicated it cannot possibly be real, and then blame the countless discrepancies between what they choose to believe and what is actually on the page as simple laziness on the part of the author. But it isn't lazy writing; it's lazy reading.

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On 09/12/2017 at 7:02 AM, Annara Snow said:

Have you read the book to the end? It's Olenna, probably with the help of some other Tyrells (not sure which ones), in collusion with Littlefinger. 

 

Anything else (like the post above line) is a total crackpot.

 

On 14/12/2017 at 0:10 PM, Zapho said:

I think Margaery was the one who actually placed the poison in the chalice. She must have been in on it because Olenna wouldn't take the risk that her grand-daughter accidentally drank the poison. It was in the wedding chalice both Joff and Margaery drank from all evening.

The pie/wine discussion aside (I'm with the wine though), it seems pretty clear that Oleanna and Baelish plotted the murder. They both confess, and when Baelish takes Sansa on board the ship, he already knows what has happened.
During the feast, Oleanna adjusts Sansa's hairnet that carried the poison (Sansa remembers it later, and I think the scene is even literally described), so it was probably she who put the poison into Joffrey's whatever.
Now, the true question is, what was Baelish's motivation? How did he want to profit from the murder? Why should he care whether Joffrey or Tommen sits the Iron Throne?
He prepared it all a long way, already when arranging the marriage, he ordered his servants to spread rumours/the truth about Joffrey in Highgarden (he says so himself). But why???


The second murder, Baelish is made responsible for in the same book - telling Lysa to poison her husband - makes only a little more sense: killing Jon, so Ned will go to King's Landing only to be murdered there, which frees Catherine for Petyr... (that at least seems to have been his motivation for this one).

Edited by Ice C

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2 hours ago, Ice C said:

 

The pie/wine discussion aside (I'm with the wine though), it seems pretty clear that Oleanna and Baelish plotted the murder. They both confess, and when Baelish takes Sansa on board the ship, he already knows what has happened.
During the feast, Oleanna adjusts Sansa's hairnet that carried the poison (Sansa remembers it later, and I think the scene is even literally described), so it was probably she who put the poison into Joffrey's whatever.
Now, the true question is, what was Baelish's motivation? How did he want to profit from the murder? Why should he care whether Joffrey or Tommen sits the Iron Throne?
He prepared it all a long way, already when arranging the marriage, he ordered his servants to spread rumours/the truth about Joffrey in Highgarden (he says so himself). But why???


The second murder, Baelish is made responsible for in the same book - telling Lysa to poison her husband - makes only a little more sense: killing Jon, so Ned will go to King's Landing only to be murdered there, which frees Catherine for Petyr... (that at least seems to have been his motivation for this one).

All good questions, which is why I find it puzzling that people continue to cling to the wine theory despite the fact that it leads to countless inconsistencies with plot, logic, rationale and just basic facts.

How could Lady Olenna possibly poison the wine herself? She is barely five feet tall and the rim of the chalice is at least six feet off the ground and an arm's length toward the center. Not only would she have to squeeze in between Tyrion and whomever is sitting to his left or right, but then stand on tippy toes and stretch her body all the way just to reach it -- all in plain view of literally thousands of people who are facing her direction. Sorry, just not possible.

The only possible poisoner is Garlan, and even then, it's a one-in-a-million shot. Remember, he doesn't just have to drop the poison, he has to do it without being seen. So maybe, just maybe, he can pull this off just as the pigeons are taking flight, but this is an enormously risky move when the consequences of failure are arrest, imprisonment and possibly execution of virtually the entire Tyrell family. Plus, we have to square this with the fact that Garlan is an anointed knight descended from the house that literally invented the chivalric code who would invite great shame upon himself not only for being a kingslayer but using a coward's weapon like poison to do it.

And all of this is intended to prevent a situation that has not even emerged yet and probably won't for years. There is no indication that Joffrey has any evil intentions toward Margaery, in fact he is pleased as punch to be marrying her and not Sansa. Maybe, someday, Margaery will be in danger, but that will be long after she has born the next heir to the Iron Throne and the Tyrell link to supreme power in Westeros is secure. So in the end, the wine theory has Lady Olenna literally risking the lives of virtually everyone she holds dear and possible the very future of her house, all to bring about a situation in which Tyrell political power and influence is diminished, not enhanced. The whole thing just doesn't add up.

Baelish's motivation is equally puzzling. Mr Chaos himself thinks he's going to get more chaos with Tommen on the throne than Joffrey? Hardly. And let's go back to Highgarden where Petyr has convinced the Tyrells that despite the rumors about Joffrey, he's actually a great guy who would honor and cherish Margaery till her dying day. Are we expected to believe that on his word alone, the Tyrells agree to the match, and then at some point later he approaches Lady O and says "guess what. I lied. Joffrey really is a psycho murderer and Margaery's life is in great danger." So rather than just calling the family together and revealing this information, she instead joins a plot with this known liar and backstabber and continues to have full trust in him right up to the point where he has her poisoning the king in full view of thousands of people, at a time when her entire family is surrounded by Lannister guards, all while LF himself is safe aboard ship out in the bay ready to flee to Braavos at the first sign of trouble.

Lady O is one of the savviest, experienced players of the Game of Thrones in the story. She has successfully navigated her way through a hopelessly patriarchal society to become the titular head of the most powerful house in the realm. How could anyone possibly believe she is this stupid?

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