A few difficult questions about Summerhall.....

[purple-eyes]

1. Who lives in Summerhall right before the tragedy? Did anybody own it as what Maekar did before?

Summerhall could serve as a place for a younger Targ son. Daeron died years before the tragedy, so it was not him. 

Is it possible that Aegon gave Summerhall to Duncan and Jenny since he lost Dragonstone?

2. If nobody lives in Summerhall and Targ family came here only for retreat, then why did Rhaella, a heavily pregnant woman who might give birth anytime, travel all the way from KL or Dragonstone to Summerhall? It is not a very short distance and certainly not a good thing to do for a pregnant princess.

Is it possible that since Jaehaerys had Dragonstone, elder Prince Duncan was in the court for service, then Aerys was given Summerhall as home after getting married? This could explain why Rhaella was there right before the birth. She lived there and other people came here to visit her (and welcome the new baby). 

If this is the case, then no wonder Rhaegar is so sad over his life. In order to welcome and see him, Egg decided to meet at Summerhall, then since all blood of Dragon will meet at Summerhall (with their dragon eggs, probably), Egg decided to wake the dragons here. (not saying this Rhaegar's fault, but it is not hard to imagine he would feel sad about this)

But still, it is strange that we only heard about death of Aegon V and Duncan, but knew nothing about other Targ family members: Aerys, Jaehaerys, Sherra, Maegor, Vaella, Rhae, Daella, Rhaelle, Jenny, Betha Blackwood, and possibly Daenora, and possibly--------------Sheira Seastar! She is maximally 81 years old and could be pretty as a maiden still. Did she practice some blood magic over there at Summerhall to wake dragons (and failed miserably)? 

I bet GRRM has not completely decided how to write about them yet   So many Targs around. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

[ChuckPunch]

I assume Aegon was trying to pull a Super Saiyan God type ritual with all of the living Targaryens joined together to try and raise a dragon from one of the eggs.

As for who lived there, it's anyone's guess and I'm not sure that it matters. At that point they also had Dragonstone for the heir apparent so likely Summerhall was where the next down the line stayed. 

[purple-eyes]

1 minute ago, ChuckPunch said:

I assume Aegon was trying to pull a Super Saiyan God type ritual with all of the living Targaryens joined together to try and raise a dragon from one of the eggs.

As for who lived there, it's anyone's guess and I'm not sure that it matters. At that point they also had Dragonstone for the heir apparent so likely Summerhall was where the next down the line stayed. 

King's blood, the more the better, the more the more powerful. 

It is not that important to know who owns Summerhall, but I just felt that it did not make much sense for rhaella to be there if she lived on Dragonstone or King's landing. 

[ChuckPunch]

1 minute ago, purple-eyes said:

King's blood, the more the better, the more the more powerful. 

It is not that important to know who owns Summerhall, but I just felt that it did not make much sense for rhaella to be there if she lived on Dragonstone or King's landing. 

I was meaning that Aegon likely ordered all Targaryens to be present regardless of how inconvenient it was for them. 

[purple-eyes]

7 minutes ago, ChuckPunch said:

I was meaning that Aegon likely ordered all Targaryens to be present regardless of how inconvenient it was for them. 

Well, for other people, maybe. But Rhaella is carrying his first great grandchild, and also this baby is from a union which might bring Prince that was promised according to Jenny's witch friend. So I guess even Aegon himself would not want to run this risk. 

 

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

Summerhall is proof that king's blood doesn't have any inherent powers.  It's just some people happen to have the ability for magic.  The warlock that took Varys' manhood had magic and it's not his genitals that did the trick.  It's like the saying "what works for me may not work for you" but the untalented refuse to accept their limitations.

[ChuckPunch]

8 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Well, for other people, maybe. But Rhaella is carrying his first great grandchild, and also this baby is from a union which might bring Prince that was promised according to Jenny's witch friend. So I guess even Aegon himself would not want to run this risk. 

 

If you read Dunk and Egg you can see that even early Aegon has little regard for the wishes of others. He has a firm belief in the hierarchy of their world and uses his status to get what he wants (often against Dunk's wishes). 

Summerhall happened when Aegon was a King, frustrated at the lack of progress he was making with creating certain laws. The very reason he even tried this magic ritual at all was to get dragons so he could strong-arm his will on the Lords. This is not a King who would be very mindful of what his granddaughter thought. Also, it was Jahaerys who cared about the prophecy, Aegon didn't even even want the incestuous marriage to happen. This may also have played a part in what I imagine was a firm command for all to be present.

I could easily see him not caring what was easy or safe for Rhaella and ordering her to be present, which she obviously was. I'm not sure why you think Aegon had conflicting feelings on this since if he didn't want her there she wouldn't be.

[zandru]

17 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

But still, it is strange that we only heard about death of Aegon V and Duncan, but knew nothing about other Targ family members:

I'm thinking all will be revealed in subsequent books. Which, at this point, is little consolation...

[Alexis-something-Rose]

20 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Well, for other people, maybe. But Rhaella is carrying his first great grandchild, and also this baby is from a union which might bring Prince that was promised according to Jenny's witch friend. So I guess even Aegon himself would not want to run this risk. 

I actually have some 3 pages in a Google Docs written about this, that I'm not nearly done with, because slow go

This is something I've been thinking about for a while (obsessing is more like). We don't know what the Ghost of High Heart told Jaehaerys aside from the Prince that was Promised coming from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. 

But if they thought that Rhaegar was the Prince that was Promised, then I think Rhaella would have to be present. It seems like this whole experiment Aegon had going was happening as Rhaegar was being born. It seems like waking dragons and AA being reborn may have been considered to be mutually exclusive. What I find interesting is that it doesn't seem like Aegon tried to manipulate the signs by going to Dragonstone which is a place of smoke and salt. There's plenty of king's blood and part of Duncan the Tall's sigil is a falling star, so he could the bleeding star. 

I think that the location of Summerhall is going to turn out to be important. Summerhall is located in the Dornish Marches, and has a foothold in Dorne. At the very least, it's located at the mouth of the Boneway. Jon was born in Dorne, the ToJ is in the Red Mountains of Dorne and Dany hatched her dragons in the Red Waste.

I do have a lot more to say about this and the possible connecting threads, but it's out of the scope of this OP.

Aegon may have been a lot closer to hatching than dragons than we think.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 11/28/2017 at 7:59 PM, purple-eyes said:

1. Who lives in Summerhall right before the tragedy? Did anybody own it as what Maekar did before?

Summerhall could serve as a place for a younger Targ son. Daeron died years before the tragedy, so it was not him. 

Is it possible that Aegon gave Summerhall to Duncan and Jenny since he lost Dragonstone?

It was probably Egg. He was never the direct heir so he did not ever live at dragonstone. 

On 11/28/2017 at 7:59 PM, purple-eyes said:

2. If nobody lives in Summerhall and Targ family came here only for retreat, then why did Rhaella, a heavily pregnant woman who might give birth anytime, travel all the way from KL or Dragonstone to Summerhall? It is not a very short distance and certainly not a good thing to do for a pregnant princess.

They were trying to use magic to hatch an dragon egg. They probably wanted as much dragon blood as possible in the building 

On 11/28/2017 at 7:59 PM, purple-eyes said:

Is it possible that since Jaehaerys had Dragonstone, elder Prince Duncan was in the court for service, then Aerys was given Summerhall as home after getting married? This could explain why Rhaella was there right before the birth. She lived there and other people came here to visit her (and welcome the new baby). 

anything is possible when nothing is written 

On 11/28/2017 at 7:59 PM, purple-eyes said:

If this is the case, then no wonder Rhaegar is so sad over his life. In order to welcome and see him, Egg decided to meet at Summerhall, then since all blood of Dragon will meet at Summerhall (with their dragon eggs, probably), Egg decided to wake the dragons here. (not saying this Rhaegar's fault, but it is not hard to imagine he would feel sad about this)

could be 

On 11/28/2017 at 7:59 PM, purple-eyes said:

But still, it is strange that we only heard about death of Aegon V and Duncan, but knew nothing about other Targ family members: Aerys, Jaehaerys, Sherra, Maegor, Vaella, Rhae, Daella, Rhaelle, Jenny, Betha Blackwood, and possibly Daenora, and possibly--------------Sheira Seastar! She is maximally 81 years old and could be pretty as a maiden still. Did she practice some blood magic over there at Summerhall to wake dragons (and failed miserably)? 

I bet GRRM has not completely decided how to write about them yet   So many Targs around.

He is going to publish the targ history book before winds, because he loves us 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

On 11/28/2017 at 8:59 PM, purple-eyes said:

So many Targs around.

Made an easy target for their enemies. As @ChuckPunch pointed out,  Aegon V wanted dragon's back around so he could put all the high lords of Westeros in check and intimidate them into following his laws they did not want to follow.

17 hours ago, ChuckPunch said:

I could easily see him not caring what was easy or safe for Rhaella

That would follow the pattern that Rhaella was made to suffer in some way or another under all Targaryen Kings. Her father forced her into a marraige she did not want and obviously Aerys brutalized her. I wouldn't be surprised if Aegon cared little for her well being as well, especially if it meant the possibility of dragons.

[1000th Lord Commander]

I thought Summerhall might have been given to Duncan and Jenny as well. As a castle with fewer royal implications, it would have been a easy gift for them.

[Orphalesion]

On 11/29/2017 at 4:59 AM, purple-eyes said:

1. Who lives in Summerhall right before the tragedy? Did anybody own it as what Maekar did before?

Summerhall could serve as a place for a younger Targ son. Daeron died years before the tragedy, so it was not him. 

Is it possible that Aegon gave Summerhall to Duncan and Jenny since he lost Dragonstone?

2. If nobody lives in Summerhall and Targ family came here only for retreat, then why did Rhaella, a heavily pregnant woman who might give birth anytime, travel all the way from KL or Dragonstone to Summerhall? It is not a very short distance and certainly not a good thing to do for a pregnant princess.

My understanding was that Summerhall was just that: a summer hall, a summer palace for the times when summer was it's hottest and the stench and grime in King's Landing the smelliest and grimiest.
Many rulers in history kept summer palaces/residences/capitals. Legendary Shangdu (which Marco Polo called "Xanadu") was the Kahn's summer capital the European palaces of Versailles and Schonbrun, the home of two of the mightiest European dynasties during the 18 century started out as summer palaces. The Pope used to have (or maybe he still has it?) a summer retreat where he and his cardinals would go into "recess". So the practice is not unprecedented in the real world.

I can imagine the Targs could have retreated there for at least a few months on end during the heights of each summer, maybe even years considering Westeros' unique weather patterns. So it wouldn't be strange for Rhaella to be there, in fact, considering the common practices at the time in the real world, if you had the option to send your pregnant wife somewhere quiet and green, where less things are likely to have a negative influence on the fetus' development, you'd more than likely do it. 

[chrisdaw]

On 29/11/2017 at 2:59 PM, purple-eyes said:

2. If nobody lives in Summerhall and Targ family came here only for retreat, then why did Rhaella, a heavily pregnant woman who might give birth anytime, travel all the way from KL or Dragonstone to Summerhall? It is not a very short distance and certainly not a good thing to do for a pregnant princess.

It was somewhat the purpose of the event.

Quote

What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy. In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall, his favorite castle, there to celebrate the impending birth of his first great-grandchild, a boy later named Rhaegar, to his grandson Aerys and granddaughter Rhaella, the children of Prince Jaehaerys.

What will be most telling is if the idea to combine a celebration of Rhaegar's impending birth with an attempt to wake dragons was entirely Aegon's and coincidental, or if another party worked it into Aegon's thoughts. They were one dead Rhaegar away (and only Dunk's heroism prevented that) from pre-empting the same circumstances in which Dany woke dragons.

People leaning into Egg being evil are barking up the wrong tree, he's been played, it is the hidden hands behind the scenes that made Summerhall, the sorcerers and their treachery. Bloodraven and Shiera are the only two candidates.

[bent branch]

I don't have any idea if there was anyone living permanently at Summerhall or if it was just being used as a summer palace, as was suggested above. However, I think it can be taken as a given that the only people who survived Summerhall are those that have been mentioned by name. This quote from TWOIAF-The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II, clearly states that the Targaryen line was in danger of dying out:

Quote

The new king had already provided the realm with an heir in the person of his son Rhaegar, born amongst the flames of Summerhall. Aerys and his queen, his sister Rhaella, were young, and it was anticipated that they would have many more children. This was a vital question at the time, for the tragedies of Aegon the Unlikely's reign had trimmed the noble tree of House Targaryen down to just a pair of lonely branches.

The two branches mentioned here are the Targaryens and Baratheons. So after Summerhall, all living Targaryens were Jaehaerys II, Shaera, Aerys II, Rhaella, Rhaegar, Steffon Baratheon and possibly Rhaelle Targaryen Baratheon (I have no idea when or where she died). Even Robert wasn't born until three years later.

Speculating that any other Targaryens were running around is pointless given the above quote. Furthermore, understanding how devastated the Targaryen clan was is essential to understanding everything else that happens later.

[bent branch]

7 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

It was somewhat the purpose of the event.

What will be most telling is if the idea to combine a celebration of Rhaegar's impending birth with an attempt to wake dragons was entirely Aegon's and coincidental, or if another party worked it into Aegon's thoughts. They were one dead Rhaegar away (and only Dunk's heroism prevented that) from pre-empting the same circumstances in which Dany woke dragons.

People leaning into Egg being evil are barking up the wrong tree, he's been played, it is the hidden hands behind the scenes that made Summerhall, the sorcerers and their treachery. Bloodraven and Shiera are the only two candidates.

I am going to somewhat agree with you. The tragedy at Summerhall was a hostile act against the Targaryens. I am positive that the people behind it were not Bloodraven and Shiera.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

43 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

What will be most telling is if the idea to combine a celebration of Rhaegar's impending birth with an attempt to wake dragons was entirely Aegon's and coincidental, or if another party worked it into Aegon's thoughts. They were one dead Rhaegar away (and only Dunk's heroism prevented that) from pre-empting the same circumstances in which Dany woke dragons.

People leaning into Egg being evil are barking up the wrong tree, he's been played, it is the hidden hands behind the scenes that made Summerhall, the sorcerers and their treachery. Bloodraven and Shiera are the only two candidates.

I agree with the first part. There's a parallel between what happened at Summerhall and Dany hatching the dragons in the red waste. Betrayal, sorcery, fire. And I mentioned the geography in my post on this, which I think is significant.

I don't believe that Bloodraven had anything to do with this, though. I wouldn't be surprised if the name Summerhall was suggested by Bloodraven. The first time Summerhall came up in the text, all I kept thinking was how it reminded me of Bran's direwolf, Summer. And when we find out that it's Bloodraven Bran was going to find beyond the Wall, that Bloodraven guided that vision/dream Bran was having when he was comatose and that he woke when he saw the heart of winter and named his direwolf Summer after that and maybe Bloodraven himself saw what Bran saw as well. For me, it makes complete sense to me that this is where Rhaegar, the prophecy child would have to be born, since the belief might have been that he would be the one to end the Long Night.

And I know that there are all kinds of speculations out there that Shiera is still alive, but there's no evidence for this at all, so I personally can't really formulate any ideas on this. 

At the very least, if there was foul play at Summerhall, we know that someone has had it in for the Targaryens for at least that long. I have my money on a one house in particular, but there's nothing to back it up.

[chrisdaw]

GRRM has nodded at treachery and sorcery for the event. We have two sorcerers for the time, Bloodraven and Shiera. It is not going to be one of the random necromancers we've never heard of before.

It wasn't sabotage to prevent Egg from waking dragons, there's nothing to suggest what Egg was doing would work. It was the usual nonsense that had all failed before.

What it was, was someone trying to wake dragons who had at least a bit of a clue that it requires sacrifice. They knew Egg would never agree to sacrifice so they had to act behind the scenes to make it happen. They wiped out a bunch but ultimately failed, because Dunk saved Rhaegar.

Baby sacrifice for dragons, 1 Targ baby to cement the dynasty forever with the power of dragons, classic ends justify the means stuff, Bloodraven's whole persona. Shiera the curious, living on the edge of knowledge and sorcery, a boundary pushing trickster.

[Lord Varys]

On 29.11.2017 at 4:59 AM, purple-eyes said:

1. Who lives in Summerhall right before the tragedy? Did anybody own it as what Maekar did before?

We know Maekar was the Prince of Summerhall since his father gave the castle to him. When he became Prince of Dragonstone (after Aerys I named Maekar his Heir Apparent, in the wake of Prince Aelor's death) Daeron the Drunk became Prince of Summerhall (evident in the fact that Daeron wanted to be called 'Prince of Summerhall' even after he had been made Prince of Dragonstone when his father became king). As Maekar's eldest son, Daeron was already the heir of Summerhall in THK. That also established that Daeron II actually intended to make Summerhall a hereditary lordship (or princedom) for Maekar.

Maekar would also have named one of his sons the new Prince of Summerhall. Could have been Aerion, could have been Egg. Considering that Egg already had a wife and eventually a family during the reign of his father chances are that Maekar may have given Egg a place to settle down. Especially if Egg ended up becoming Maekar's favorite son - not sure if that ever happened, though.

In any case, presumably Aerion would have succeeded Daeron as Prince of Dragonstone considering that Daeron predeceased Aerion. Thus Aerion would have been Prince of Dragonstone when he died in 232 AC, allowing Maegor to give Summerhall to somebody else - presumably Egg, at that point.

On 29.11.2017 at 4:59 AM, purple-eyes said:

Summerhall could serve as a place for a younger Targ son. Daeron died years before the tragedy, so it was not him. 

Exactly.

On 29.11.2017 at 4:59 AM, purple-eyes said:

Is it possible that Aegon gave Summerhall to Duncan and Jenny since he lost Dragonstone?

I'd assume Aegon V made Duncan Prince of Dragonstone when he took the throne, giving Summerhall to Jaehaerys or keeping it for himself as a summer residence for the entire family (they were still rather young at that point). Egg may have planned to give Summerhall eventually to Jaehaerys and Celia Tully but when Duncan had to abdicate in the wake of the Jenny crisis (and then Jaehaerys and Shaera married each other, too), resulting in Jaehaerys becoming the new Prince of Dragonstone. If Duncan and Jenny ended up having children of their own - which I think they might have had (and even should have had) then Summerhall would have been the place where they settled down. In that sense, I'm reasonably confident that Duncan Targaryen could have died as Prince of Summerhall.

On 29.11.2017 at 4:59 AM, purple-eyes said:

2. If nobody lives in Summerhall and Targ family came here only for retreat, then why did Rhaella, a heavily pregnant woman who might give birth anytime, travel all the way from KL or Dragonstone to Summerhall? It is not a very short distance and certainly not a good thing to do for a pregnant princess.

The entire point of the gathering there was to celebrate the birth of Aegon V's first great-grandchild - Aerys and Rhaella's child.

On 29.11.2017 at 4:59 AM, purple-eyes said:

Is it possible that since Jaehaerys had Dragonstone, elder Prince Duncan was in the court for service, then Aerys was given Summerhall as home after getting married? This could explain why Rhaella was there right before the birth. She lived there and other people came here to visit her (and welcome the new baby). 

Not very likely. Aerys and Rhaella were still very young, and Aegon V had another son. In addition, Aegon V was no longer the youngest of man, and Aerys would get Dragonstone as soon as Jaehaerys became king. In addition, Aegon V likely made a permanent decision regarding Summerhall assuming he gave it to Duncan and Jenny at one point. If they had children the lordship/princedom would have stayed with them, with their children to inherit them after their deaths.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As Maekar's eldest son, Daeron was already the heir of Summerhall in THK. That also established that Daeron II actually intended to make Summerhall a hereditary lordship (or princedom) for Maekar.

Could that be why Maekar had his own coat of arms? So he could pass it down to his heir along with Summerhall? Would all the Princes of Summerhall have kept the four three-headed dragons as their heraldry/coat of arms I wonder? If in fact it became the permanent castle to a branch of House Targaryen.