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Werthead

UK Politics: Winter of Discontent

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, polishgenius said:


 

Spoken like someone who definitely has no ties to any nation in Russia's vague vicinity.

And what would  suggest for a solution ? Do nothing and Let Putin do what as he pleases ? I don't know about you,  but that's hardly a winning  strategy for anyone , except for Vladimir Putin and his cronies. 

Edited by GAROVORKIN

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Cancel visas for Russian oligarchs, seize assets, expel Russian officials, increase deployment of troops and equipment in eastern Europe, begin rearmament, provide military aid to Ukraine and let MI6 loose in Moscow. Should do for starters.

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5 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

And what would  suggest for a solution ? Do nothing and Let Putin do what as he pleases ?



:rolleyes: Yes, that is definitely what I said.

It's just not nearly as simple a situation as you're pretending to believe it is. 'Let's just force Putin out' might seem like a nice clean solution from wherever you are in the world, but when you're actually in  or from Europe, especially Eastern/central Europe, it's a bit different the prospect of things getting all fucked up.

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16 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Let him keep his gas.    If he sends troops into eastern Europe with the. intent to annex ,  then we need respond by sending in troop to counter him.  With sufficient incentive , Putin can be made to back down.

 

One problem is (even discounting the fact that the current UK government is weak and near paralysed by the oncoming headlights of Brexit) that there is a nagging fear that, when push comes to shove, the current US government will fail to back Europe up, given its president is widely suspected to be in Putin's pocket.

 

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I was saving that comeback for Garovorkin's next sally!

Still, a chemical weapons attack in an English city cannot go unanswered, hence my suggestions, plus the importance of rearmament.

A resurgent Russia and a Russian asset as American president reinforces the utter stupidity of Brexit. The Leader of the Opposition being, if not a paid for asset, probably a fellow traveller, doesn't help either. [trails coat]!

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1 hour ago, Hereward said:

Cancel visas for Russian oligarchs, seize assets, expel Russian officials, increase deployment of troops and equipment in eastern Europe, begin rearmament, provide military aid to Ukraine and let MI6 loose in Moscow. Should do for starters.

How about a sporting boycott of events in Russia such as the World Cup? That would probably get more headlines than cancelling visas.

I promise I'm not just suggesting that because I'm Scottish.

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1 hour ago, williamjm said:

How about a sporting boycott of events in Russia such as the World Cup?

In conjunction with other measures, sure. But as the lone response to a chemical weapon attack on British soil it seems a bit trivial. By any reasonable measure, if the evidence backs up that this was an action undertaken by Putin or the Russian state, it could certainly be considered an act of war. I am not suggesting war with Russia would be a good response, but the response should match the gravity of the act.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, polishgenius said:



:rolleyes: Yes, that is definitely what I said.

It's just not nearly as simple a situation as you're pretending to believe it is. 'Let's just force Putin out' might seem like a nice clean solution from wherever you are in the world, but when you're actually in  or from Europe, especially Eastern/central Europe, it's a bit different the prospect of things getting all fucked up.

Again , what would you suggest as a course of action ?

Edited by GAROVORKIN

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, GAROVORKIN said:

Again , what would you suggest as a course of action ?



Hereward mentioned several potential more plausible responses.

Thing is though, I don't need to be expert enough to know what exactly might and should be done to know that 'collapse Russia's economy' and 'let him keep his gas' are either startlingly naive or startlingly callous things to be saying and that even if you could simply force Putin out like that it'd hardly solve the many problems of Russia.

Edited by polishgenius

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4 hours ago, Liffguard said:

In conjunction with other measures, sure. But as the lone response to a chemical weapon attack on British soil it seems a bit trivial. By any reasonable measure, if the evidence backs up that this was an action undertaken by Putin or the Russian state, it could certainly be considered an act of war. I am not suggesting war with Russia would be a good response, but the response should match the gravity of the act.

I meant in addition to the other measures Hereward suggested. The reason I bring it up is that Boris Johnson at one point last week seemed to suggest it, before clarifying that he was only suggestion not sending an official delegation to the World Cup (an action that probably ranks just above sending a strongly worded letter), this didn't really make me think there was much appetite in Government for even a fairly trivial reaction.

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Posted (edited)

Observing all this from the other side of the Pond, just when I am ready to come to the conclusion that you folks are surpassing us for  sheer breathtaking dysfunctional stupidity, along comes another tweet/word/action our said Russian Asset,  who currently sits at  (desecrates) Abe Lincoln's desk (when he isn't golfing that is) that turns your current  Punch and Judy show into a cute puppet spectacle for children. Your situation is as tragic, yes, but you Brits are not supposed to be the linchpin of the entire international order....whatever we are economically, it still seemed to be the Pax Americana. Our dysfunction has real and immediate global consequences, puts global order at risk (as if his mere being there hasn't done that already). Your situation is a tragedy, but ours is an utter devolvement into the Seventh Circle of Hell. 

The announcement of the NK meeting is bad enough...(which will be an utter farce; he probably wants to open a hotel chain in Pyongyang; another avenue for propping up a financial empire held together only by Rubles at this point...that he was supposed to have given up when taking power....and the meeting for their part will only be for them--and China--to thumb their nose at us and the world to  say, "See, we are equal to America now!" For us it will be an utter farce. ) 

But for Putin to out and out come out with a "Don't f--" with me, or you will pay," statement made after a poison gas attack on the soil of our de facto SISTER COUNTRY, our closest ally, and NOBODY HERE HAS UTTERED A WORD OR DONE ANYTHING..COMPLETE AND UTTER SILENCE, from  the country where "If you see something, say something" has become the national slogan, along with "You gotta do what you gotta do"? .can you imagine if Obama did not respond? No TV statements of alarm at this disruption of the peaceful international order? Where then is NATO? The U.N? "Five Eyes", for God's sake, where were they?

 

And maybe your government won't do anything b/c they have plans for cozy relationships with Russia propping up their personal fortunes and swanky London townhouses. once full Brexit is accomplished, May is kicked out after she played her part, and the full economic costs become apparent to the average voter. By which time it will be too late. And the players in the current drama will have quietly exited the stage having done the damage, to enjoy life in their coy dachas and yachts, not bothered by intrusive media examinations of their roles in subsequent years, while the poor earnest chappies  of the next generation are left to deal with all the fallout, the damage and the loss. And this is before you factor in climate change and what will come of that. (The image of Cersei raising her wineglass after blowing up the Sept comes to mind.) Or the oligarchs walking up the gangplank waving to the trapped workers who built their Ark in "2012": :"So long, see ya, shmucks!" (OK, that wasn't a line, but that's what was being conveyed.) 

 

It also  reminds me of Agent Orange's sneering response to the Women's March, the day after the "Inauguration": "I thought there was an election?" Knowing full well what he knew, and knows. 

 

Try as I might, I have not been able to resist slipping into the ladies' room at work, overwhlemed by the sheer horror of it all, and shedding a quiet and solitiary tear. I have said to friends and co-workers, "Can you imagine all the groups--and you know who I mean--who are noting THE LACK OF OUR RESPONSE to this incident and are probably making plans because of this? If you know what I mean? (And they all nod, b/c with all the violence here lately, to say "terrorist attack", seems like a swear word.) God forbid, b/c no-one else will..." There is a creeping Sept 1939 feel about it all, as stable govt around the world fall to "strongmen." But esp Putin, an evil we should already know well. Unlike the others, b/c of what he has already done, I really do get a "I want to take over the world, and will stop at nothing to do it" vibe. Pretty old-school....but his methods (at least to outsiders) are not. I mean, poison gas attacks and poisonings of his enemies both inside and outside Russia have kinda become his trademark. So too late;y has using various nefarious KGB methods combined with modern tech and often domestic traitors "opening the gates" to install either captive puppet regimes (our own) or at least sympathetic actors (of which Le Pen almost was one) to aid his purpose. 

 

And that's what I think here in the U.S. I cannot imagine what someone like you, Polish Genius, must be feeling as you watch....or at least I have followed....the slow progress of this monster on the international stage and the slow revealing of his plans. How helpless the world seems to be to stop him. I have seen our own role in legitimizing  this monster. I remember the poison gas attack on the Moscow theater a few yrs back,that killed hundreds of his own innocent people  as well as the attackers. (Like, a SWAT Team kinda thing could have defused that situation?)   Putin actually called Dubya and informed him what he was going to do, and Bush's response was basically, "Well, as long as it isn't Zyklon B, it's ok. And you have to, ya  know, becuz Muslim terrorists." I also remember he "offered to help" after the Boston bombing. That's what oil oligarch Putin does, use the "Muslim terrorist/race" card to win govt leaders to his side, and when that doesn't work, it's the real estate thing, or oil deals, or..let's see....gathering "kompromat" on people in positions of power and influence  to use against them later. (It just might be how he keeps his Americans puppet(s) under control. We'll see if Mueller will offer any evidence of that.) 

 

So what? you might be saying. High time America got a taste of its own Kissingerian medicine. Oh, I know the long litany list of wrongs we did during the Cold War in the name of the Pax Americana, but I didn't see anybody doing anything meaningful to protest our actions either, like boycott our Hollywood films or place us under sanctions or anything. maybe I'm wrong about that, but even so.
"Words are wind," as the saying goes.  I suppose there are many well-meaning people who quielty applaud our current woes and are happy to see America pay the price for all the suffering it has caused in the world, both during the Cold War and after. They are happy, no doubt, that the chickens seem to have come home to roost. (let's see how happy they are when climate change and our own stupidity and greed destroy our corn crop, and there goes much of the feed for your cows and chickens, and there goes your meat consumption.) But I always say to them (and I've talked to a few in my life): "Why don't you come and live here. You might revise your opinion. We're not what you think. Do you really think we are happy here?" 

And ask yourself if you want China to take over. A hyper-industrial China that aspires to, even if it will never achieve,  American per capita consumption levels, and controlled by a man who really has just made himself Dictator for Life. We did enough damage to the planet as a capitalist democracy with only  250-300  million; now imagine what happens when the gloves really come off a Communist dictator whose Party are professionals at oppression and corruption who make us puny by comparison, and who have 1 out of every 6 or 7 people on the planet....what happens when the fish in the South China Sea run out?...this is beginning to happen already....what do you think the real cause of the South China Sea drama is about? Again, I refer to the article " China's Communist-Capitalist Ecological Apocalypse"  (google it) to see what I mean. 

 

But to get back to Polish Genius and others who concede that there is nothing we can do, b/c Putin has done his work too well, and it would be unwise to provoke him.  Made you folks dependent on Gazprom etc. To which I say: history shows us that if you do not find some way to act now, you will be FORCED to act later. You will pay the price in the long run for not acting now. And talk to your elders, seek out the eyewitness accounts of those who lived under the ancien regimes of the 20th century. It is like outer space for those of us who have only known peace, relative prosperity, a connected and globalized world. We don't remember because  we can't. We simply have no idea. me? I'm half-Armenian. Of course I don't either. But I talked my grandfather before he passed away..and over 70 yrs later, he remembered things he had experienced as a child. I can hear him still. 

 

Watching the daily devolvement of our society here in America, so soon after "Hamilton" hit the streets, I have a Sept 1, 1939 feeling. No, no tanks are rollingi in, and we have no Rifenstaalian-hyper spectacle. But watching our society fragment at a rapidly accelerating pace, the school shootings almost on a weekly basis now, the explosion of bomb threats; the disentigration of society into hordes of squabbling groups (men/women; PoC/white; liberalconservative; tradtional media/socal media and the subgroups fighting within that, the explosion of the opiates in medication abuse crisis (60,000+ dying  A YEAR in the past 2 years, that has actually shortened our life expectancy statistics--hey Tory Brits who  hate the NHS, try coming over here where heavy opiates are routinely prescribed for routine illnesses like back pain, and sometimes even to childen? it's how Tom Petty just died, he was taking meds for a hip injury..hey, at the rate we're going, we should just put the coacaine back in Coca-Cola, This is what I hope Britain will become if the full "reforms" go through.) 

 

And worst of all is the rotting and ossification of our revered national institutions: the news media have all mysteriously turned into giggling schoolgirl fan worship of our Traitors, esp the Usurper. Not just "Wow! let's see what he does next!" But PRAISING him. Squeeing Beatlemania at worst, and pardoning crimes brought to light at best, or practing another of Putin's favorite methods: "me-too ism" aka "Hey, if they can do it, I can do t too." Or conversely,  "well, the left did this, so we can do this." When they really should be sounding the alarm that  the United States of America, the supposed Superpower or at least one of the big "multi-laterals" (hey, let's cut to the chase; the one with the nuclear football, OK?) has become in essence a puppet vassal state of Russia, just as surely as if Putin's tanks had rolled up to the WH gate. the way he/they behave, and Congress's utter silence (again:imagine Obama or Hillary this?) Big deal right? OK, so what was the whole existential 20th century struggle against Russia about? Crickets from Congress. They're just as paraliyed as your govt it seems. Or worse....what many suspect...the entire Congressinal GOP --and many Dems--are all either on Russia's blackmail list, on the Kremin's take, or both. The media is bought and paid for, except maybe Reuters and a few intrepid Twitter bloggers. Then there are the courts....and the Supreme Court, which has a certified neo-Nazi on it now (Gorsuch, appointed by...3 guesses) ..again, he has a track record. 

 

Our Internet has just been privatized, (in spite of a huge campaign it stop it from happening, by voters of all parties as well a lot of corporate America--the FCC tried to do it twice when Obama was in power but he listened to the people and vetoed it both times, even though he was for it at first; no such luck with this creitn) the Tax Code has just been changed for the first  time since 1986, and we are alreafy feeling the pinch of that;; BTW, that was rushed though both Houses in less than 3 weeks, during the Christmas season, and we relly didn't find out about it from the media until New Year's. You'd think changing the national tax code would be something that the people would want to debate, but no. It's effectively wiped out all our "living wage" raises we've fought for over the yrs.  

 

We are out of the picture, it seems, until our  Traitors and Usurpers are dealt with accordingly. (God, this is all so GoT!) And that is a scary thought. But other Western institutions thrive....of the kind that Europe did not have say, in the 1920's-30's. NATO has already correctly come to this conclusion months ago; that is why they are doing what they are doing on the Russian border now.  I was convinced that the tanks would come rolling into Estonia by last September, and that Hungary would again fall like it did in '68, by Christmas. I'm serious. But so far, they have not. And that, I think, is b/c of NATO. Maybe Putin is working on a way to sabotage their elections too. Or play the "Muslim race" card like he did in the Czech Republic. (Beware.) 

 

I go around thinking that history is repeating itself, and that we are revisiting a dark chapter in history, the long slow exestential agony that all peace and freedom loving peoples must have suffered before the real crisis unfolded. I have always thought democracy's days were limited, but that it would crumble organically under the weight of rescource depletion and climate change, around starting 10 yrs from now as the perfect storm of crisis begin to hit. But not this. Not like this, and before it had to....Ithought we could take a few pleasant memores with us on the final trip, before we faced the Long Night togther. 

 

I always thought that democracy would die a natural death in bed, sometime towards the middle of this century:  a victim of not enough food or water or timely energy infusions; a changing of the temperature, so to speak;  or too many people in the Global house.

 

I never in my wildest imaginings thought that it could die young: that it could be--WOULD be--murdered. 

 

Thank you all for reading my ramblings. I sit here finishing this at 2 AM. Had to get it out of my system. I apologize. 

Edited by Lady Of The Crossbow Inn

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