Dark: Netflix's Time-Bending German Mystery Series {Spoilers from page 5}

[briantw]

Spoiler

Regardless, hard to think that any cop would just magically assume that a body found yesterday was his dead brother from thirty years earlier.  We assume that because we're the viewers and it's obvious, but that body was fresh and the bulk of the characters were not aware that time travel was possible.  No reason they would just assume that it was a dead kid from thirty-three years prior.  It's just illogical to believe they would.  

 

[Dolorous Gabe]

Thoroughly enjoyed this.

I think its title sequence is my favourite title sequence. Mesmerising!

[red snow]

17 hours ago, dooog said:

 

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Regarding Ulrich.

You're assuming he never looks at his missing brother's photograph, the life changing event which essentially broke his mother. The case which inspired him to become a policeman in the first place.

When he discovers the dead boy, anticipating finding his son, a more practical response would have been.

Thank god its not my son. Then who is it. Wait, he looks familiar, strangely quite like my brother from all those years ago, nah well that couldn't be. Hmmm he's dressed in mid 80s garb... is someone trying to fuck with my head here... it must be whoever snatched my boy.

 

I'm maybe misrembering but didn't

the body from the 80s turning up in 2019 have his eyes/surrounding face burned black? I think that would make it tricky to ID. And, as Brian points out, leaping to "it's my brother from 33 years ago" is not an obvious choice. But Ulrich did start to question whether a body could be preserved for long periods of time. That's a more gradual and beleivable level of realisation to seeing a body in 80s clothes and a walkman and saying "that's my brother's body - travelled through time". Where this could become hard to beleive is if further seasons have teenage Ulrich dabbling in all the time travel stuff. If that happens then present day Ulrich should be aware of the possibility and more likely to jump to such a conclusion.

[briantw]

28 minutes ago, red snow said:

I'm maybe misrembering but didn't

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the body from the 80s turning up in 2019 have his eyes/surrounding face burned black? I think that would make it tricky to ID. And, as Brian points out, leaping to "it's my brother from 33 years ago" is not an obvious choice. But Ulrich did start to question whether a body could be preserved for long periods of time. That's a more gradual and beleivable level of realisation to seeing a body in 80s clothes and a walkman and saying "that's my brother's body - travelled through time". Where this could become hard to beleive is if further seasons have teenage Ulrich dabbling in all the time travel stuff. If that happens then present day Ulrich should be aware of the possibility and more likely to jump to such a conclusion.

 

Spoiler

Yeah, we know the show is about time travel, so it's blindingly obvious to us that the body that turns up is Ulrich's brother from thirty years prior.  However, it's not at all logical for a police officer to just leap to that conclusion because the body was wearing 80's clothes.  The more obvious conclusion would be that it's the same killer from thirty years ago, and the clothes are a message of some kind.  Alternatively, another conclusion would be that it's a different killer paying homage to the previous killer.

Regardless, I don't think we could realistically expect a detective to see a child's body, perfectly preserved and clearly only killed a short time ago, and jump to the conclusion that the body is his brother's who disappeared three decades earlier.  No one would logically jump to that conclusion unless they were aware that time travel was possible, which Ulrich was not at the time the body was found.

I thought the show handled how Ulrich slowly figured out that the body was his brother's pretty well.  As you said, it was a gradual process where it slowly became clear that something sinister was at work, and that perhaps things that he might have thought were impossible were not.

 

[red snow]

On 19/12/2017 at 8:51 PM, Dolorous Gabe said:

Thoroughly enjoyed this.

I think its title sequence is my favourite title sequence. Mesmerising!

It's very well crafted and the use of the apparat song (with vocals from soap and skin) fit perfectly. I've been a fan of that song (and apparat) for a long time. I can remember when they used it in a key moment in Gus Fring's arc from Breaking Bad but for this title sequence the lyrics could have been tailor made

[red snow]

Great news - renewed for a second season. Thank god we weren't left with that cliffhanger. This show has to ultimately end with the opening scene, right?

[House Balstroko]

I started off with the dub, but found it too distracting so I ended up switching to German.

[IamMe90]

On 12/20/2017 at 11:58 PM, House Balstroko said:

I started off with the dub, but found it too distracting so I ended up switching to German.

Good choice, the dub is abysmal. 

[Mexal]

On 12/20/2017 at 6:42 PM, red snow said:

Great news - renewed for a second season. Thank god we weren't left with that cliffhanger. This show has to ultimately end with the opening scene, right?

Fuck yea.

[red snow]

1 hour ago, Mexal said:

Fuck yea.

sehr gut!

[Unlady B]

Wow, I loved it. The soundtrack was amazing. And the cast, the cast was really on point.

[john]

On 12/21/2017 at 0:42 AM, red snow said:

Great news - renewed for a second season. Thank god we weren't left with that cliffhanger. This show has to ultimately end with the opening scene, right?

That would make sense (although personally I hope they get out of the closed loop version of time travel) but Mikkel will presumably have to go on some sort of Jonas esque journey where he’s taught about the importance of keeping doing the same things (which is all bullshit according to Noah) otherwise I find it hard to believe he would hang himself just because he remembers it happening.

[Corvinus85]

Just finished it. Thoroughly enjoyed it.

Spoiler

 

I'm not sure what to think about the end with Jonas possibly ending up in 2052. It's possible there is one grand time loop (the universe), with many time loops within, like the 53-86-19 loop.

 

 

[Isis]

Binged this in two days. Worth saving for the holidays in order to do it in a concentrated session. This show ranks maybe in my top three shows from 2017 (watched in 2017). 

It looks amazing, the trees, the rain, all the aerial shots, that great opening shot looking outwards from inside the cave, down to stuff like how the machines look (I want one - so cute!). The soundtrack is fantastic (reminds me a little of Les Revenents, in that it's all rather dark and bleak), I've just been listening to it in the bath.

What I find about watching shows with subtitles is that I pay more attention to what is being said. Subtitles would never put me off watching a good film or show. One other bonus is that you can have the volume a little bit lower than normal and still not miss out on anything.

Incredible casting - I'd love to spend some time just poring over the photos of the families from the different eras and comparing their faces. Fascinating stuff.

I don't really 'get' the point of the time travel though, from the POV of the priest dude, it all seems a bit abstract. I get that's he's saying there are two sides, the light and the shadow, but what is it that they are trying to achieve via time travel?

 

[SpaceChampion]

Binged it over the past three days.  Totally didn't notice midnight passing by on new year's eve because I was watching episode 7.

I don't have much to add to the discussion here, except

Spoiler

the dog isn't the only one to go forward in time.  Jonas switching places with places with Helge through the wormhole brought Helge forward to 1986.  As karaddin said, he probably used the cave to get back to his correct time.  I imagine Noah recruited him then (in 1986 torture room) and taught him how to use the cave.  What time Jonas ended up of course is not clear.  Why would Helge go forward 33 years but Jonas go forward 66 years from 1986 to 2052?  I would have thought he'd go back in time 33, or forward only 33 -- to 2019.  So maybe this is an alternate timeline 2019.

The girl leading the group that captures Jonas looked familiar.  The end credits lists the character as "Girl from the Future".  So it's probably 2052.  But why does she look familiar?  Could she be the younger version of a character we've seen already?  Jana?

 

Another thing:  I think it's called "Dark" because this really fits in the Noir genre as I understand it.  Noir is where everyone is varying levels of bad or evil but the only thing that tells you who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist is the quality of the ideas they hold, and the effects of their plans.  If Noah has the better ideas and succeeds, then he's the real protagonist.  I doubt that'll be the case though.  We'll see in a few years.  But my point is the characterization in noir fiction is always aimed at showing how flawed all the characters are, so that all you have left is the ideas they express and the consequences of their actions.

Oh, and film noir got its start from German Expressionism, which began in...  wait for it.... 1920.  Coincidence???

[Isis]

4 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Binged it over the past three days.  Totally didn't notice midnight passing by on new year's eve because I was watching episode 7.

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We did exactly the same thing. Best way to spend NYE if you ask me, watching something great in your PJs.

[Corvinus85]

10 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Binged it over the past three days.  Totally didn't notice midnight passing by on new year's eve because I was watching episode 7.

I don't have much to add to the discussion here, except

  Reveal hidden contents

the dog isn't the only one to go forward in time.  Jonas switching places with places with Helge through the wormhole brought Helge forward to 1986.  As karaddin said, he probably used the cave to get back to his correct time.  I imagine Noah recruited him then (in 1986 torture room) and taught him how to use the cave.  What time Jonas ended up of course is not clear.  Why would Helge go forward 33 years but Jonas go forward 66 years from 1986 to 2052?  I would have thought he'd go back in time 33, or forward only 33 -- to 2019.  So maybe this is an alternate timeline 2019.

The girl leading the group that captures Jonas looked familiar.  The end credits lists the character as "Girl from the Future".  So it's probably 2052.  But why does she look familiar?  Could she be the younger version of a character we've seen already?  Jana?

 

Another thing:  I think it's called "Dark" because this really fits in the Noir genre as I understand it.  Noir is where everyone is varying levels of bad or evil but the only thing that tells you who is the protagonist and who is the antagonist is the quality of the ideas they hold, and the effects of their plans.  If Noah has the better ideas and succeeds, then he's the real protagonist.  I doubt that'll be the case though.  We'll see in a few years.  But my point is the characterization in noir fiction is always aimed at showing how flawed all the characters are, so that all you have left is the ideas they express and the consequences of their actions.

Oh, and film noir got its start from German Expressionism, which began in...  wait for it.... 1920.  Coincidence???

My question is

Spoiler

why didn't the wormhole open in 3 periods at the same time? This is mentioned several times, that past, present, and future are the same. 1986 was the focal point, the "present", because that's when the nuclear incident took place, and the wormhole opened ways to 1953 and 2019. Helge's son (the therapist) and Tronte were there, waiting in 2019, but we only see a connection between '53 and '86. Or maybe the blackhole that old Jonas created messed up the connections so the 2019 timeline got skipped and the wormhole jumped to 2052. hmm...

 

[DaveSumm]

On 02/01/2018 at 4:08 AM, SpaceChampion said:

 

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the dog isn't the only one to go forward in time.  Jonas switching places with places with Helge through the wormhole brought Helge forward to 1986.  As karaddin said, he probably used the cave to get back to his correct time.  I imagine Noah recruited him then (in 1986 torture room) and taught him how to use the cave.  What time Jonas ended up of course is not clear.  Why would Helge go forward 33 years but Jonas go forward 66 years from 1986 to 2052?  I would have thought he'd go back in time 33, or forward only 33 -- to 2019.  So maybe this is an alternate timeline 2019.

Spoiler

I like the idea that Jonas and Helge touching created a separate timeline, and that that was an alternate 2019. Sadly it'd make the "welcome to the future" line a bit of a cheat, so I doubt it. A shame as I'm pretty tired of post-apocalyptic settings, I'm here for the time travel shenanigans. So rarely done well, and so rarely done without the makers panicking that no one will understand it and spoon feeding explanations. 

It's weird as there isn't any mystery with Helge. It'd be really odd to throw him to 1986 only for him to use the cave to get back again. And where was that that Jonas woke up? It wasn't the bunker was it? Which I guess supports the idea that it's an alternate timeline. 

I'm still not sure I entirely understand the wormhole. So it leads to two other times, 33 years in the future and 33 years in the past. But we saw that when Jonas went through, the same amount of time had passed for Mikkel. So if you go through on November 5th, you arrive on November 5th but just in a different year. If you go back on the 6th, you arrive on the 6th. So the wormhole itself is moving through time independently. Weirdly, this means that if you found yourself in 1953, you might need to ask yourself where the wormhole is. Is it aligned such that 53 is the past, the present, or the future? For any given year, the wormhole will 'pass over' it three times.

That is unless it only works on the November dates we saw in the show. Is it like a stuck record, jumping back to the beginning each loop? That would make more sense that there is something special about this time period, as otherwise there's nothing significant about 53, 86 and 2019 anymore than there would be about 54, 87 and 2020.

But then if that's the case, how are Noah and future Jonas and Claudia so clued up about it? They seem to give off a vibe that time travel is old hat for them, when really this would mean that they had a few days in November to experiment and then had to wait 33 years. What happens if you go through the cave in another year? And how do they keep their memories each time? 

I don't really understand what Claudia's plan was, she seemed to just stand there and watch. I'm not sure if she was fooled by Noah in the same way Jonas was to create the wormhole in the first place, or if she's actually succeeded at anything.

A few other lingering questions; the woman in red (Ulrich's grandma) in 53 who was staying at the Tiedermann's was about to mention a grandma who used to live in Winden but got cut off. Any chance this'll be someone we know from the future? Also, I forgot that Regina said to Ulrich's wife "tell them who their mother is" when they had that fight at the school. Only Mikkel's brother and sister were present, so it's possible they have a different Mother but Mikkel doesn't. Which means Jonas can get it on with his aunt.

LOVE the show and feel like it's been ages since I got to sink my teeth into a good time travel story.

[karaddin]

14 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

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I'm still not sure I entirely understand the wormhole. So it leads to two other times, 33 years in the future and 33 years in the past. But we saw that when Jonas went through, the same amount of time had passed for Mikkel. So if you go through on November 5th, you arrive on November 5th but just in a different year. If you go back on the 6th, you arrive on the 6th. So the wormhole itself is moving through time independently. Weirdly, this means that if you found yourself in 1953, you might need to ask yourself where the wormhole is. Is it aligned such that 53 is the past, the present, or the future? For any given year, the wormhole will 'pass over' it three times.

That is unless it only works on the November dates we saw in the show. Is it like a stuck record, jumping back to the beginning each loop? That would make more sense that there is something special about this time period, as otherwise there's nothing significant about 53, 86 and 2019 anymore than there would be about 54, 87 and 2020.

But then if that's the case, how are Noah and future Jonas and Claudia so clued up about it? They seem to give off a vibe that time travel is old hat for them, when really this would mean that they had a few days in November to experiment and then had to wait 33 years. What happens if you go through the cave in another year? And how do they keep their memories each time? 

...

A few other lingering questions; the woman in red (Ulrich's grandma) in 53 who was staying at the Tiedermann's was about to mention a grandma who used to live in Winden but got cut off. Any chance this'll be someone we know from the future? Also, I forgot that Regina said to Ulrich's wife "tell them who their mother is" when they had that fight at the school. Only Mikkel's brother and sister were present, so it's possible they have a different Mother but Mikkel doesn't. Which means Jonas can get it on with his aunt.

LOVE the show and feel like it's been ages since I got to sink my teeth into a good time travel story.

I still think that this is the wrong way to think about the wormhole

Spoiler

It's not moving through time independently or anything like that, think of time as a spring with a circumference of 33 years which is when the solar bodies realign exactly as they were again. From any point on the spring the point directly above you is 33 years in the future and the point directly below you is 33 years into the past. The wormhole creates a bridge from the current point to the spiral above and below, and this bridge isn't at a set point - its just 33 years into the past and future from "now".

What is not clear in the show is whether "now" is always there and the events that take place every 33 years in November are simply when those events happen - and they all happen at the same time, just across the 3 time locations - or if the wormhole is only open for a small period of time that spans "10 days in each year". My initial expectation was that the wormhole is open all the time and that from 2019 the travel options should be to 1986 or 2042, from 1986 to 2019 or 1953 etc, however the events of the show (especially Ulrich winding up in 1953) suggested that the "now" in which the wormhole exists is only the 1986 point, which is when the wormhole is created and closed/looped. How the ending fits into this is not clear either.

 

[DaveSumm]

11 hours ago, karaddin said:

I still think that this is the wrong way to think about the wormhole

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It's not moving through time independently or anything like that, think of time as a spring with a circumference of 33 years which is when the solar bodies realign exactly as they were again. From any point on the spring the point directly above you is 33 years in the future and the point directly below you is 33 years into the past. The wormhole creates a bridge from the current point to the spiral above and below, and this bridge isn't at a set point - its just 33 years into the past and future from "now".

What is not clear in the show is whether "now" is always there and the events that take place every 33 years in November are simply when those events happen - and they all happen at the same time, just across the 3 time locations - or if the wormhole is only open for a small period of time that spans "10 days in each year". My initial expectation was that the wormhole is open all the time and that from 2019 the travel options should be to 1986 or 2042, from 1986 to 2019 or 1953 etc, however the events of the show (especially Ulrich winding up in 1953) suggested that the "now" in which the wormhole exists is only the 1986 point, which is when the wormhole is created and closed/looped. How the ending fits into this is not clear either.

 

Spoiler

OK yes that makes sense. But it points to the wormhole only working on the dates we've seen (or at least, some finite set of dates), otherwise when does the wormhole start putting you back 33 years instead of forward? What happens if you travel back to 1953, then wait a few months? Or a few years? If you wait till 1986, where does it take you? 

I missed that the bunker at the end was the same one, but it's obviously been used by Claudia. So she obviously has some independent means of getting to 2052 as she's lived there some time (or ..... I've only just thought of this ..... she could have travelled through the caves in 1986 to 2019, and then aged between 2019 and 2052. Even then she obviously got back from 2052 though.) So I'm still struggling to reconcile how Claudia and Noah know so much if they only have access at a certain time. We know Noah hasn't mastered time travel, but is trying to with his experiments. Thats another curve ball though ..... technically Noah's is a different wormhole, so for all we know this one has completely different rules. 

I love how Season 2 could literally be the exact same dates and events, just another go through the loop with people trying to alter things for their own ends.