Why I believe Dany is the daughter of Lyanna and Rhaegar

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Nevts' point was that Darry was there when Rhaella gave birth and took the child away, something the fake Darry / fake child theories try to find a way to undermine because it helps them confuse and thus question the narrative as presented. 

I don’t debate that Darry was on dragonstone and left with Viserys... just that Dany was born there rather than the woman who’s had a lot of miscarriages sadly passing after a final one. 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Though I appreciate some people are not convinced by Dany's parentage as persented and Jon's parentage as largely (but not universally) deduced by the forum (not the readership in general) I simply don't see a valid basis to question or erase Darry.  It's convenient, even necessary, to do so in order to argue certain theories but there is no basis for it in story.

At no point did I try to erase him... we know he signed a wedding pact between dorne and Viserys in Braavos. What we don’t know, beyond the word of Viserys, is wether Danny was living in Braavos. Dany’s early memories, which conveniently omit Viserys, and have the Gray old man she remembers as Darry never call her by name, and the house with the red door descriptions having several glaring discrepancies with the idea that it was in Dorne. There are holes which appear in want of further explanation... but I certainly am not erasing anyone. 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

The idea that the blue flower is related to someone else rather derstroys the symbolism GRRM has introduced.  

The winter rose certainly connected with Lyanna... 

Quote

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash, and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds.

And Dany, who as I showed in the op is called “too skinny” in her first chapter just like Arya.

Quote

Oh, and flowers for my hair. When first they met, the captain brought her flowers every day, all the way from Yunkai to Meereen. "Bring the grey linen gown with the pearls on the bodice. Oh, and my white lion's pelt."

Also, that freezing gale which follows Robb into the hall (notice no wolf head for him at this feast of the dead) is remarkably similar to the cold chasing Danny...

Quote

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

And of course wolves howl, not Dragons.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Wow, poor Ned

On that we can agree... cheers

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

23 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I did not dig much into the HotU, and I think the visions she sees should at least be relevant to her ...

For example, the silent wolf led the king at the party of the corpses ... many assume that this is the red wedding ... but that never made sense to me. Why would Rob look at her with appeal? And there is only one horribly wolf notoriously silent, ghost. I think it's Jon she saw.

When she arrives at the Heartroom, she asks about the rooms she passed along the way:

The rooms she passed:

1. Servers that annoy a beautiful woman (the shape of the shadows, just like the children in Bloodravens Cave, are the little people performing the show here). What did they want to say? Run!!!

2. Dead body party (morrow not yet done, I believe this is Jon looking at her with appeal, being at the feast of the dead seems appropriate).

3. House with the red door (drink from the ice cup, as I showed in the OP the bitter cup, or ice cup, the truth difficult, in this case I believe it is exile, and the glass served by her family Stark, the gray bear guard may not have really been Willem Darry, and the house with the red door description does not seem to fit with Braavos) past things

Aerys "burn them all" (drinking from the glass of fire, from the sweet glass, sweet lies, I believe there is more to Aerys' death than we have learned so far, but I believe it is important that she does not recognize it, as opposed to Rhaegar, whom she acknowledges) lies

5. Song of Ice and Fire (mother of dragons, she recognizes Rhaegar and Rhaegar seems to see her when she says there must be one more, the prince who was promised to awaken stone dragons) True sights, even if Rhaegar was wrong about Aegon being the sweet music that follows it, it looks directly at her.

6. Create the maggot creature / Magnificent Undying room / Heart Room (Child of three, we see three versions of the eternal, Warlock Pree becomes a worm (root?), The false image of the Nonexistent as wonderful magicians who promise knowledge and power and a thousand lives, and then the heartroom) "The things I saw"

They, of course, continue to give you visions in sets of three ... deserving your own post / topic / discussion.

But of course this is all just my opinion today!
 

The man with the wolf's head I believe is Ned. That explains why he looks at her with a mute appeal. It's much more plausible that it's Ned than Jon or Robb.

Quote

"The look Ned gave him was an anguish.
You know I can not take you south. There will be no place for him in court. A boy called a bastard ... You know what they're going to say about him. Will be put aside.
Catelyn fortified her heart against the mute appeal in her husband's eyes. "

Catelyn II - AGOT

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

The idea that the blue flower is related to someone else rather derstroys the symbolism GRRM has introduced.  Bran is hugely important to the story, probably equally if not more so than Jon or Dany but there is nothing to associate him with a blue flower.  I feel you are taking the author's clues as "too obvious" and looking for a more obscure meaning when the "obvious" one actually will be missed by a lot of readers on one and multiple read throughs.  Crowd sourced theories and internet databases offer us a lot more processing power than the average reader brings on a winter evening or an afternoon on the beach.

The problem from my point of view is that the blue rose has such a strong association with Lyanna in people's minds that they can't see anything else.  The blue rose is Jon and only Jon.  That's wrong.  I'm not looking for what is 'too obvious' and I don't expect to change people's minds if they are invested in Jon is the rose.  There are some people who will recognize that I've given textual evidence that Bran's appearance as Tree-Bran and Bran's description of the tree at the Night Fort are the same.  The Black Gate is a chink in the Wall of ice allowing passage through the ice.  Bran's power is growing just as the sapling tree grows before Jon's eyes.  He is accessing the power of the gate and the Wall to appear to Jon in a place where there are no weirwoods - on a metaphysical level.  So really, take it or leave it.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 minutes ago, Nina DarkSister said:

The man with the wolf's head I believe is Ned. That explains why he looks at her with a mute appeal. It's much more plausible that it's Ned than Jon or Robb.

Interesting, but Ned was never a king... and I’m not sure what he would be appealing Danny for?

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

9 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Interesting, but Ned was never a king... and I’m not sure what he would be appealing Danny for?

Well, Ned was forced to lie that he wanted to steal Joffrey's Throne. I believe that the man sitting on the Throne with a leg of lamb is symbolic of it. He being falsely portrayed as a king.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

4 minutes ago, Nina DarkSister said:

Well, Ned was forced to lie that he wanted to steal Joffrey's Throne. I believe that the man sitting on the Throne with a leg of lamb is symbolic of it. He being falsely portrayed with a king.

Well I do think it’s an interesting take... I’d still wonder why you think Ned would be looking to Dany?

I always took the leg of lamb to be a reference to Jon’s time as a wolf in sheeps clothing...

Quote

Jon wheeled and followed Tormund back toward the head of the column, his new cloak hanging heavy from his shoulders. It was made of unwashed sheepskins, worn fleece side in, as the wildlings suggested. It kept the snow off well enough, and at night it was good and warm, but he kept his black cloak as well, folded up beneath his saddle. "Is it true you killed a giant once?" he asked Tormund as they rode. Ghost loped silently beside them, leaving paw prints in the new-fallen snow.

 

[Ygrain]

32 minutes ago, Nina DarkSister said:

The man with the wolf's head I believe is Ned. That explains why he looks at her with a mute appeal. It's much more plausible that it's Ned than Jon or Robb.

More plausible than the guy who was actually murdered at a feast and whose own head was cut off to be replaced by his wolf's?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

More plausible than the guy who was actually murdered at a feast and whose own head was cut off to be replaced by his wolf's?

Ya but again, why would Robb look to Dany with appeal? What would he appeal Dany for and why would she care? Not to mention the crown is wrong for Robb... and Theon dreams of the Stark feast of the dead, Robb walks in, but has his own head and Grey Wind is at his side...

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

12 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Well I do think it’s an interesting take... I’d still wonder why you think Ned would be looking to Dany?

I always took the leg of lamb to be a reference to Jon’s time as a wolf in sheeps clothing...

 

Does he look at Dany because he died believing his promises were broken? That he could not help her? Or something like that? We can speculate ...

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

9 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Ya but again, why would Robb look to Dany with appeal? What would he appeal Dany for and why would she care? Not to mention the crown is wrong for Robb... and Theon dreams of the Stark feast of the dead, Robb walks in, but has his own head and Grey Wind is at his side...

Exactly! That goes for Jon too. Why would he look at Dany with mute appeal?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

24 minutes ago, Nina DarkSister said:

Exactly! That goes for Jon too. Why would he look at Dany with mute appeal?

Well given that he’s just been cesar’d, this could provide both an escape from the NIghts Watch vow allowing him to wear a crown, and that I think they are brother and sister... not to mention Danny has Dragons and the Others are coming... it seems like there is quite a bit he might look to Dany for. 

The mute part fits perfectly with Ghost being the silent wolf... and it’s possible Jon will second life into Ghost, who’s death maybe necessary for Jon to return to his own body... but that’s, of course, speculation.

To put it really simply, he will likely still be around to need her help when she gets to Westeros, and I don’t see Danny being able to assist either Ned or Robb.

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Well given that he’s just been cesar’d, this could provide both an escape from the NIghts Watch vow allowing him to wear a crown, and that I think they are brother and sister... not to mention Danny has Dragons and the Others are coming... it seems like there is quite a bit he might look to Dany for. 

The mute part fits perfectly with Ghost being the silent wolf... and it’s possible Jon will second life into Ghost, who’s death maybe necessary for Jon to return to his own body... but that’s, of course, speculation.

To put it really simply, he will likely still be around to need her help when she gets to Westeros, and I don’t see Danny being able to assist either Ned or Robb.

Interesting, but I still do not think that's it.

The mute appeal could mean that Dany helps the Stark family (who is her family too) because I do not think the appeal is for him. I think the crown symbolizes the lie that Ned wanted to steal Joffrey's throne, the lamb's leg symbolizes that he was innocent of the accusations, and the wolf's head symbolizes his decapitation.

[the trees have eyes]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

The problem from my point of view is that the blue rose has such a strong association with Lyanna in people's minds that they can't see anything else.  The blue rose is Jon and only Jon.  That's wrong.  I'm not looking for what is 'too obvious' and I don't expect to change people's minds if they are invested in Jon is the rose.  There are some people who will recognize that I've given textual evidence that Bran's appearance as Tree-Bran and Bran's description of the tree at the Night Fort are the same.  The Black Gate is a chink in the Wall of ice allowing passage through the ice.  Bran's power is growing just as the sapling tree grows before Jon's eyes.  He is accessing the power of the gate and the Wall to appear to Jon in a place where there are no weirwoods - on a metaphysical level.  So really, take it or leave it.

Well, I'll leave it then.  I don't agree that "the blue rose has such a strong association with Lyanna in people's minds that they can't see anything else", it's that the blue rose is only connected with Lyanna in story by GRRM and there is no reason I can see to connect it to Bran or anyone else.  I understand that you find the idea of Lyanna being associated with winter roses, Jon being present at The Wall and Dany having a vision of a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice to be too obvious a connection between Jon and Lyanna but really it's not, a lot of people won't even notice it.  I mean if you read through the books several years apart, say when they were originally published, and had only read them once would this really leap out at you?  I think not.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 12/1/2017 at 4:18 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

 

On 12/1/2017 at 4:26 PM, LynnS said:

I'm sick of people dismissing things out of hand as well. Everything hasn't been demolished and RLJ isn't the grand unified theory that underpins everything.   I'm especially tired of the logic that AA = Jon... 'because RLJ'.  By all means, have at it.   

 

I'm not going to dismiss this.  The honest to goodness truth is, the parents of Dany, Jon, Tyrion, and Griffin can't be proven for the time being.  Martin still has some room to go in more than one direction.  But, out of the four above, Martin has less options for Dany because there are witnesses on Dragonstone when she was born. 

I will do better than not dismiss this theory.  I will list some potential clues that lead to this direction.  I think I can also make a better case for R + L = D than I can for R + L = D & J.  For my evidence, I will use the visions from the House of the Undying chapter in the second volume.  The undying referred to Dany as the child of three.  It is easy to see why Dany is the child of three if R + L = D.  By the same line of thinking, it is equally easy to see why Dany is the child of three if A + R = D.  There is evidence to support both theories.

1. If R+L=D, Dany is the third child of Rhaegar.
2. Dany had three hand maidens:  Irri, Jhiqi, and Doreah.  In Meereen she has Irri, Jhiqi, and Missandei. 
3. Dany has three Bloodriders:  Aggo, Jhogo, and Rakharo.
4. She was sought out by Pyat, Xaro, and Qaithe.  Like the three wise men of the bible searching for Jesus. 
5. She has three dragons.
6. Three Kingsguard knights died at the Tower of Joy.  Three pure (likely virgins) lives in exchange for the birth of the real dragon.
7. She fought three cities in Slaver's Bay.
8. House Targaryen has a three-headed dragon sigil.  She is at least part Targaryen in whichever parental pairings you may choose.

So #6  fits into the pattern of the three fires, three mounts, and all the rest.

I'm not going to dismiss this theory because it is possible.  My own personal preference is A + R = D.   There is more to support that in comparison to any other theory.  If Rhaegar and Lyanna were intimate (this is not proven) and they had a child that lived it is most likely Griffin-Aegon.

 

[the trees have eyes]

6 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

I'm not going to dismiss this theory because it is possible.  My own personal preference is A + R = D.   There is more to support that in comparison to any other theory.  If Rhaegar and Lyanna were intimate (this is not proven) and they had a child that lived it is most likely Griffin-Aegon.

 

Interesting.  If R+L=(F)Aegon, then what theory do you have for Jon's parentage and Lyanna's "Promise me Ned"?  I'm curious as I have yet to hear a theory that R+L=/=J (or A+R=/=D for that matter) that doesn't raise more questions that it attempts to answer.

[Bloodraven's Spider]

The World of Ice and Fire text mentions lemon tree's (in Dorne) but High Hall specifically. Could this be the house with the red door? It's very clear she has been fed lies by Viserys 

[Ygrain]

15 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

 it's that the blue rose is only connected with Lyanna in story by GRRM 

To be honest, there is one reference to someone else - the blue rose in Ygritte's story about Bael and the unnamed Stark daughter - and one unstated reference, the blue rose on the Wall. Every single other reference is to Lyanna, and by extension, to Rhaegar, because he is the only person ever mentioned as gifting the roses to her. No other people connected to blue roses whatsoever :-)

[Ygrain]

3 hours ago, Bloodraven's Spider said:

The World of Ice and Fire text mentions lemon tree's (in Dorne) but High Hall specifically. Could this be the house with the red door? It's very clear she has been fed lies by Viserys 

It is, but the part about being born in a storm and escaping DS is supported by other sources, e.g. Stannis.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

22 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It is, but the part about being born in a storm and escaping DS is supported by other sources, e.g. Stannis.

Is it though?

He wasn’t there, and we are hearing about it years later after the news of Darry’s escape to Essos is public knowledge. There is no evidence of what he was told or if there were still witnesses to the birth and death on Dragonstone.

We don’t get a witness to the birth or the escape from dragonstone except Viserys, who we know for a fact is lying about other things to Dany (namely the usurper’s knives, and the midnight/morning departure from King’s Landing). 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

35 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

To be honest, there is one reference to someone else - the blue rose in Ygritte's story about Bael and the unnamed Stark daughter - and one unstated reference, the blue rose on the Wall. Every single other reference is to Lyanna, and by extension, to Rhaegar, because he is the only person ever mentioned as gifting the roses to her. No other people connected to blue roses whatsoever :-)

Look, I completely agree that the Blue Rose is a symbol tied first, foremost, and intentionally meant to make the reader think of Lyanna... 

But it’s not accurate to say it’s the only connection...

Quote

 

"Not kind," said Cersei, "merely truthful. Taena tells me that you are called the Blue Bard."

"I am, Your Grace." The singer's boots were supple blue calfskin, his breeches fine blue wool. The tunic he wore was pale blue silk slashed with shiny bluesatin. He had even gone so far as to dye his hair blue, in the Tyroshi fashion. Long and curly, it fell to his shoulders and smelled as if it had been washed in rosewater. From blue roses, no doubt. At least his teeth are white. They were good teeth, not the least bit crooked.

"You have no other name?"