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Free folk Daemon

Will Sansa be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms at the end of the story?

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5 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

Queen regent? Absolutely not, but queen consort? It's possible. 

Agreed, only we're kinda short of possible end game kings.

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10 hours ago, TRILOGY said:

Queen regent? Absolutely not, but queen consort? It's possible. 

If Rickon dies she'll be the Queen in the North

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Just now, Pikachu101 said:

If Rickon dies she'll be the Queen in the North

Unless Robb left a will saying otherwise (he did)... and Bran is still alive...

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6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Unless Robb left a will saying otherwise (he did)... and Bran is still alive...

I don't think Bran's coming back, as for Robb's will:

  1. We don't know if it actually exists, he could have planned on writing it after the wedding 
  2. She's no longer in Lannister clutches thus Robb's reasoning for disinheriting her is void
  3. In this scenario Rickon's dead which means she's Robb's only heir so the North won't have a choice

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22 minutes ago, Pikachu101 said:

I don't think Bran's coming back, as for Robb's will:

  1. We don't know if it actually exists, he could have planned on writing it after the wedding 
  2. She's no longer in Lannister clutches thus Robb's reasoning for disinheriting her is void
  3. In this scenario Rickon's dead which means she's Robb's only heir so the North won't have a choice

I think Sansa has a better shot at a throne through her wedding with Tyrion then she does being crowned herself... but anything is possible.

 

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Sansa is the more beautiful Queen. It is known.

For those doubting her royal Destiny, read again the Battle of the Nera: the true effective leaders during this desperate stance are Tyrion and Sansa... The former on the battlefield, the latter with the non-combatants. And incidentally, they are still husband and wife... And if Tyrion is indeed half-Targ as many of us believe, there you have your Ice and Fire - not the one expected, but who expects the expected with GRRM?

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1 hour ago, Jo Maltese said:

Sansa is the more beautiful Queen

That's a different topic but I agree 

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On 12/7/2017 at 11:20 PM, Pikachu101 said:

I don't think Bran's coming back, as for Robb's will:

  1. We don't know if it actually exists, he could have planned on writing it after the wedding 
  2. She's no longer in Lannister clutches thus Robb's reasoning for disinheriting her is void
  3. In this scenario Rickon's dead which means she's Robb's only heir so the North won't have a choice

4. His kingship was confirmed by the minority of Northern nobility.

5. He lost the North and got a lot of Northern nobility killed/imprisoned.

Why would they listen to his shitty will, he was a shit king.

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20 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

4. His kingship was confirmed by the minority of Northern nobility.

That's not how this works... and how did you come to this conclusion?

20 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

5. He lost the North and got a lot of Northern nobility killed/imprisoned.

Again, relevance? 

20 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Why would they listen to his shitty will, he was a shit king.

This is silly... and I couldn't disagree more, but it's an opinion and irrelevant anyway.

I've never even heard it suggested that the majority of houses in the north wouldn't rise for a Stark of Winterfell.

The North Remembers.

1 hour ago, Jo Maltese said:

Sansa is the more beautiful Queen. It is known.

I doubt it, but it's possible I guess if Sansa manages to become a queen and Cersei survives that long. I do think there are a lot of parallels between Cersei and Sansa, both being overwhelmingly selfish and self serving, but incompetent. 

1 hour ago, Jo Maltese said:

For those doubting her royal Destiny, read again the Battle of the Nera: the true effective leaders during this desperate stance are Tyrion and Sansa... The former on the battlefield, the latter with the non-combatants. And incidentally, they are still husband and wife... And if Tyrion is indeed half-Targ as many of us believe, there you have your Ice and Fire - not the one expected, but who expects the expected with GRRM?

Do you mean the Blackwater? Tyrion, despite the chain, still would have lost without Tywin's timely arrival. And Sansa I guess contributed something...

but that aside, I do think that Tyrian and Sansa ending up together is pretty likely and it could well see them both on the iron throne.

But this is promising too:

Quote

 

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon."
Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.

 

 

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5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

(...)

I do think there are a lot of parallels between Cersei and Sansa, both being overwhelmingly selfish and self serving, but incompetent.

Mmmm. Read again Sansa’s chapters. She is certainly not selfish when comforting people during Stannis’ attack on KL nor incompetent when dealing with LF or Robin. 

Do you mean the Blackwater? Yes. Tyrion, despite the chain, still would have lost without Tywin's timely arrival. And conversely, Tywin would have arrived too late without Tyrion’s delaying tactics. But this is not the point. Tyrion’s revealing in leading the desperate defenders of the city : “Half-man! Half-man!” is the clue.

And Sansa I guess contributed something... Again this not the point (she did not in all fairness), her queen-like attitude is what struck me: she did what Cersei was supposed to do, comfort the women and children while the men fought...

but that aside, I do think that Tyrian and Sansa ending up together is pretty likely and it could well see them both on the iron throne.

But this is promising too:

Yes

 

 

 

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On 12/13/2017 at 7:29 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

That's not how this works... and how did you come to this conclusion?

of course it is. If you proclaim yourself King of the North but nobody supports you, you are not really King of the North, like Stannis isn't and Viserys, Daenerys aren't because nobody (few) who hold's lands in Kingdom they claim supports them.

Robb was proclaimed King of the North and Trident by Greatjon Umber, Rickard Karstark, Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover and some other less important Northern nobles. Riverland nobles don't really matter since they don't own any Northern land, they can only proclaim him King of Trident. Robb had like 4000 Northern men in Riverrun while proclaimed, while Roose Bolton had at least 14 thousand Northern men which meant he also had most of the nobles since vassals (soldiers) are loyal to their lord not their lord's lord (usually), this is the point that Davos makes when talking with Stannis. While Umber, Karstark, Glover are really powerful families they are sill minority against rest of the North. Also all these men are now dead or imprisoned which further decreases Robb's legitimacy as King in the North.

On 12/13/2017 at 7:29 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Again, relevance?

Maybe that makes him a bad King, doesn't it? And who decided to support Aerys's heir Viserys? If you dislike someone you are likely to go against their will, especially if you dislike that will.

On 12/13/2017 at 7:29 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This is silly... and I couldn't disagree more, but it's an opinion and irrelevant anyway.

I've never even heard it suggested that the majority of houses in the north wouldn't rise for a Stark of Winterfell.

The North Remembers.

It is not really just an opinion and it is relevant. Robb lost lands in the North and many Northern noble families suffered loses either to Ironborn invaders from which he didn't protect them or in battles in Riverlands and Red Wedding which is his fault. He married Westerling girl and insulted Freys.

You are really naive if you believe all this "The North Remembers", "We know no King but King in the North!" bullshit. People are different some are honorable and loyal others are ambitious or pragmatic, ect. Some see fall of House Stark as an opportunity to size control of the North for themselves (Bolton, maybe Ryswell ...). Whoever will get a Stark back to Winterfell will be awarded or even have influence over new ruler (if Manderlies get Rickon, Vale gets Sansa). We know Lady Dustin hates Starks, Ryswells are considering declaring themselves independent.

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4 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

It is not really just an opinion and it is relevant. Robb lost lands in the North and many Northern noble families suffered loses either to Ironborn invaders from which he didn't protect them or in battles in Riverlands and Red Wedding which is his fault. He married Westerling girl and insulted Freys.

I respect the opinion that Rob's war was pointless and you think him a bad king... I don't respect stating that opinion as fact, that's all...

Rob wasn't perfect, but he was a pretty good dude... clearly he fell for Tywin's trap, but let's be honest, it was young wolf vs Mr Rain on your Catermere parade. It was never a fair fight, in so many ways. The Westerling Girl, was a plot to trap him, it says wonders about the man that she ended up being loyal to him.

Honestly, had Lysa brought the Vale to help he never would have needed the Twins in the first place, there were a lot of moving parts, and he had a tough break... but bad king? I disagree.

Quote

You are really naive if you believe all this "The North Remembers", "We know no King but King in the North!" bullshit. People are different some are honorable and loyal others are ambitious or pragmatic, ect.

I don't think it's silly to believe loyalty exists... of course people are people and they vary, but what is naive is the Boltons thinking they can rule because they assume everyone is as selfish as they are.

Quote

Some see fall of House Stark as an opportunity to size control of the North for themselves (Bolton, maybe Ryswell ...).

I think Lady Dustin may surprise you, she may begrudge Ned her husbands bones... but I think she is far more loyal to the Starks than you would think. 

Quote

Whoever will get a Stark back to Winterfell will be awarded or even have influence over new ruler (if Manderlies get Rickon, Vale gets Sansa). We know Lady Dustin hates Starks, Ryswells are considering declaring themselves independent.

I think we are only starting to see the results of the Starks "just" rule pay off... Clearly we've seen the advantages of Tywin and Littlefinger types being ruthless and scheming... but there are benefits to being a good ruler, reliable and honorable. Loyalty is something that pays off when you are down and out and they have no "reason" to help you... so yes, I think "the north remembers".

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1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I respect the opinion that Rob's war was pointless and you think him a bad king... I don't respect stating that opinion as fact, that's all...

Rob wasn't perfect, but he was a pretty good dude... clearly he fell for Tywin's trap, but let's be honest, it was young wolf vs Mr Rain on your Catermere parade. It was never a fair fight, in so many ways. The Westerling Girl, was a plot to trap him, it says wonders about the man that she ended up being loyal to him.

Honestly, had Lysa brought the Vale to help he never would have needed the Twins in the first place, there were a lot of moving parts, and he had a tough break... but bad king? I disagree.

Good person or good military commander doesn't means good king. Richard Lionheart was great military commander who left his Kingdom to fight in Holy Land and probably could take Jerusalem, but he was a bad king just for doing that.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't think it's silly to believe loyalty exists... of course people are people and they vary, but what is naive is the Boltons thinking they can rule because they assume everyone is as selfish as they are.

I'm not saying it doesn't I am just saying every guy that screams "King in the Norf!" "Norf remembers!" doesn't means he is loyal to Starks. Most of nobles are pragmatic and when they are endangered they will betray their liege lord to save themselves.

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15 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Good person or good military commander doesn't means good king. Richard Lionheart was great military commander who left his Kingdom to fight in Holy Land and probably could take Jerusalem, but he was a bad king just for doing that.

Absolutely true, but this is more like the king of Scotland fighting a war in Britain then crusading across Europe...

Since we never got around to learning his tax policy, I can't judge Rob's civic virtues/failings.

And you may not approve of the results of his reign, but he can't control all the events happening around him, his dad just got executed, so he reacts a lot like Ned did when Rickard got killed. He just doesnt have a best buddy Robert to seat on the Iron Throne... frankly Ned should have declared independence after Roberts rebellion. 

Quote

I'm not saying it doesn't I am just saying every guy that screams "King in the Norf!" "Norf remembers!" doesn't means he is loyal to Starks. Most of nobles are pragmatic and when they are endangered they will betray their liege lord to save themselves.

Right, of course everyone doesn't follow through on what they say...

However, there is a noticeable difference between the loyalty of the North in general and what we see as the norm south of the neck.

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17 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Absolutely true, but this is more like the king of Scotland fighting a war in Britain then crusading across Europe...

Since we never got around to learning his tax policy, I can't judge Rob's civic virtues/failings.

And you may not approve of the results of his reign, but he can't control all the events happening around him, his dad just got executed, so he reacts a lot like Ned did when Rickard got killed. He just doesnt have a best buddy Robert to seat on the Iron Throne... frankly Ned should have declared independence after Roberts rebellion.

Robb did alright for his position but usually people aren't aware and will just remember he did a shit job.

18 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Right, of course everyone doesn't follow through on what they say...

However, there is a noticeable difference between the loyalty of the North in general and what we see as the norm south of the neck.

It seems like Northern vassals are more loyal then in other kingdoms but in reality it is probably pretty much the same.

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On 03/12/2017 at 5:02 PM, Free folk Daemon said:

Do people think Sansa will be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms?

 

So, I have seen this theory and understand the historical arguments behind it since she frequently thought to be somewhat inspired by Elizabeth of York who, in reality, had a better claim to the throne than Henry Tudor who was king (and the de facto Lancaster). I don't really see that happening in the books, though. Personally, at this point, I don't see how Sansa would come to be either Queen Regnant or Queen Consort of all the Seven Kingdoms because so much of her plot at this point feels to be about her reconnecting with her Stark-roots...and Starks don't really have an interest in the South. After the experiences Sansa had down there, who could blame her? I could, however, foresee her having influence over a fair chunk of Westeros as she has connections (at this point) to the Vale, the Riverlands and the Westerlands (technically, she is still married to Tyrion!) that she could foster.

Ultimately, no. I don't see her becoming the Queen at this point. I'm not sure what the status of the Seven Kingdoms will be by the end of the story or whether the union can even survive and the fate of the realm is to break up and return to the pre-Targaryen days.

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1 hour ago, Faera said:

I don't see how Sansa would come to be either Queen Regnant or Queen Consort of all the Seven Kingdoms because so much of her plot at this point feels to be about her reconnecting with her Stark-roots..

Wait, what? Building a snow castle of winterfell, and having it destroyed... that's reconnecting? She even plants Littlefinger's standard on the walls of her little snow Winterfell:

Quote

A mad rage seized hold of her. She picked up a broken branch and smashed the torn doll's head down on top of it, then pushed it down atop the shattered gatehouse of her snow castle. The servants looked aghast, but when Littlefinger saw what she'd done he laughed. "If the tales be true, that's not the first giant to end up with his head on Winterfell's walls."

The arms of house Baelish is the head of the giant of Braavos...

I hate to break it to you but Lady is dead and she's not coming back... Sansa abandoned her family, I doubt she ever gets a happy Stark reunion or even sees Winterfell again. 

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11 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Wait, what? Building a snow castle of winterfell, and having it destroyed... that's reconnecting? She even plants Littlefinger's standard on the walls of her little snow Winterfell:

The arms of house Baelish is the head of the giant of Braavos...

I hate to break it to you but Lady is dead and she's not coming back... Sansa abandoned her family, I doubt she ever gets a happy Stark reunion or even sees Winterfell again. 

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree there.

@LionoftheWest - Yeah, I don't blame you!

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