Persepolis Rising (Book 7 of the Expanse) - SPOILERS

[Larry of the Lawn]

30 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

Mixed bag. Two good chapters, but a lot of filler.

Chapter 23 sees Drummer in the arboretum of People’s Home. The description seems to disregard the effects of various gravity schemes on plant physiology – hormone production under coriolis, in particular for auxins, ethylene, gibberellins, and cytokinins. This is a huge blunder in an otherwise well-researched series. Maybe it can be rationalised because Drummer refers to the trees as “experimental”.

My theory is that the Trade Federation does have protomolecule access, and has used it to construct plant-based superwarriors in the void cities, to finally take on Laconia. Extremely intriguing.

Chapter 26 pays some more attention to the forgotten voices of Medina, when we see a park with trees. Pollination is mentioned, but only with Victorian embarrassment. Clearly, Space Opera is still not ready for some explicit descriptions of insect pollination – half a generation after a lesbian kiss on Deep Space 9. 

Some lazy imagery plant violence remains (“like an arrow shot into a tree”, “cut the rot out of the tree”, …), which will probably forever haunt this genre.

In the final chapter (52: Naomi) there is finally payoff after all this buildup, when we get some poetic imagery of anemophily on Freehold.

Thank you for this, I cried.

Lol best review yet

Honestly the lack of accuracy re: gibberellins in sci-fi / space opera has been a tragedy of the genre and we should all be collectively ashamed that it's gone on for so long unchecked.

[Happy Ent]

On 12/02/2018 at 10:45 PM, larrytheimp said:

Honestly the lack of accuracy re: gibberellins in sci-fi / space opera has been a tragedy of the genre and we should all be collectively ashamed that it's gone on for so long unchecked.

Amen. And people keep wondering why there are so few arboreal authors.

[IllusiveMan]

Just finished last night. Still need time to think where I'd rank it, but towards the lower end along with Babylon's Ashes I think. Not a bad thing, all the books are good, but not at the top with Leviathan Wakes, Abaddon's Gate, and Nemesis Games for me.

I do find that the series has struggled a bit for me by being so episodic. Four books into it, I'm like hell yeah. 7 books in and the formula is showing and I'm ready to see plot progression. I dislike the move away from the more exploratory alien story of the first few books to the straight out war stories of the past three. The first few had a solid mix of both, but the past few books have pretty much completely neglected the alien mystery which was so prominent at the start. We learned of the eaters destroying the protomolecue species in book 3, and four books later we've pretty much had no forward movement on that. I find that frustrating, even as I enjoy the political human stuff. I think that should have been better spaced out. In Ice and Fire, the Others stuff is in the background with the politics at the forefront. But the first four books of The Expanse, it was pretty half and half, central to the plot. Taking a back seat so much makes it feel like spinning wheels. Hopefully the last two will pick up.

I agree with a lot of people - the thirty year gap did not work at all for me. It was a suspension of disbelief that I could never truly get over. The aging of the characters was handled horribly. They complained about being sore, but honestly it felt more like the wear and tear you'd feel or start experiencing in your late thirties, not sixty, seventy, eighty plus. Literally no one changed in thirty years. Avasarala, despite being ninety plus, is the exact same sharp tongued politician. Bobbie has spent thirty years with these people, and she still feels like an outside and just started shipping out with them. You get a sense outside of Alex she barely knows these people. I compare with my best friend I just made in the last year - we know each other so well. Bobbie has been living in intimate quarters with people for thirty - there's just no weight to it. Same with Clarissa. Hell, Clarissa still reads like a 19 or twenty year old, and is even described as 'girl' repeatedly, with no sense of weight that she's now a fifty year old woman. I don't buy any of it. No new crew? No changes? I mean, think about how much changed for the Roci in the few years since Leviathan Wakes. New crew members, big shifts, etc. None of that in thirty years? 

It's interesting that they failed so badly in showing the age of the characters change, as it's a point that Abraham did really well in The Long Price.

I fail to see why such a gap was necessary. Cut it down to five and I'd believe it. Or do what other posters said - have new POVS, which I really think 7 books into this series was needed. It's starting to feel a tad stagnant. 

Also, I struggled to believe Amos being a full psychopath and nearly killing Bobbie (trying to!) is brushed off as 'ah, got it out of our system!' Like, no. He would have killed a close friend of thirty years if she hadn't been better than him. From a tactician standpoint, it's a poor as hell idea to keep someone so volatile and murderous on board. From a friend standpoint, I'm sorry, I just can't believe they'd keep him around and treat him like family. 

Agreed with others: Drummer was a forgettable POV to lead the war and Clarissa's death could be seen coming a mile away. 

So that was a lot of moaning, made it seem like I disliked the book. Honestly, I didn't, these books are always quality, but this one wasn't quite up to par for me. 

[sperry]

I liked the plot, a lot. I think Duarte is the best villain they've had in the series so far.

 

I thought the character development of the Roci folks was awful, though. The 30 year time gap not changing anything, as mentioned by others, killed my suspension of disbelief. The Amos and Bobbie fight was ridiculous. Bobbie just randomly beats the shit out of him after he insults her for prying into his emotions. Amos the guy who goes on base and beats the shit out of people didn't gelwith Mr. Morality Jim HOlden.

[C.T. Phipps]

I just finished the book:

1. I really liked the story of Singh who isn't even a villain so much as a story of a guy getting way in over his head. You can understand how a guy who is perfectly nice at home can completely go HEART OF DARKNESS once he's out of his element among people he's racist to. I think this is going to be the big problem the Laconians face because it's clear their soldiers are completely unprepared for life outside of their little interstellar North Korea.

2. I'm probably the only Expanse fan who has no interest really in the Proto-Builder Killers. I don't really ever want to see the aliens who wiped them out, let alone see our heroes fight them. I'm here for the human politics. I also think the advances in technology have gone a bit too much as I liked the hard and nasty side of science fiction most embodied by the early books. Laconia, for me, is a decent "final villain" to the series by themselves.

3. I can't be the only person who has picked up on all the Warhammer 40K nods. The attempts by Duarte to become God Emperor, the fact he's created his own army of Space Marines in blue power armor with an eagle on them, and his vision of a united humanity that will exterminate all aliens. It's kind of cool really.

4. The 30 year time skip is a nonstarter for me as it seems like our protagonists have either changed too much or not at all. The idea they literally continued flying for 30 more years is kind of ridiculous, especially on the same starship. The Rocinante is a muscle car and those take constant replacing. I also feel bad about some of my favorite ships sinking like Bobbie and Alex. Mind you, I kind of like the fact Clarissa and Amos are in a platonic nonsexual effective marriage. Still, I'm utterly confused about some things. Mars was dying in the previous book. Is it dead now? The Belters were afraid of being wiped out but they seem just fine. What's going on here? I feel like this could have been achieved with a 10 or 15 year timeskip and while it'd still be unbelievable--it's more palatable.

5. I like the Laconian Empire as villains as they're pretty much how I always viewed Mars as a bunch of fascists in the making (but now made). It feels kind of like Mobile Suit Gundam with the nation of Zeon....except, well, they have super suits so it's no conflict at all. I do dread the idea that there will be people who think they're "right" because that seems to be a common thing in sci-fi fandom.

6. Fred Johnson's absence is noticed terribly and I wish he'd lived for this.

7. I just realized the Laconian Empire is basically the First Order from Star Wars. They're a breakaway faction who hid in the Unknown Regions then returned 30 years later to wreck their revenge with a brainwashed new generation.

[red snow]

Agree with a lot of those comments particularly point no.3 it's the human aspect of this series that's the draw for me and the alien stuff I accept mainly to see how the humans cope with access to the galaxy and new tech. I'm hoping they'll subvert what feels like an alien invasion plot in the last act. Sort of feel they have to as surely they'd stand no chance? I still figure the proto builders/killers are the same species and they probably wiped each other out (much like the various human factions seem to be on verge of doing) and they'll be dealing with an automated program rather than aliens they can interact with.

Point 4. Not overly famiar with wh40k but it does sound like there's a few nods. The laconians certainly fit that supermarine mold

[Corvinus85]

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

1. The 30 year time skip is a nonstarter for me as it seems like our protagonists have either changed too much or not at all. The idea they literally continued flying for 30 more years is kind of ridiculous, especially on the same starship. The Rocinante is a muscle car and those take constant replacing. I also feel bad about some of my favorite ships sinking like Bobbie and Alex. Mind you, I kind of like the fact Clarissa and Amos are in a platonic nonsexual effective marriage. Still, I'm utterly confused about some things. Mars was dying in the previous book. Is it dead now? The Belters were afraid of being wiped out but they seem just fine. What's going on here? I feel like this could have been achieved with a 10 or 15 year timeskip and while it'd still be unbelievable--it's more palatable.

It would take a long time for a planet that had such a well constructed infrastructure to just die in 30 years. And the deals it made with Earth and the Belters are keeping Mars limping on.

The Belters saved themselves through the formation of that Union. They basically became the Space Guild from Dune, at least in the terms of transit authority between systems. 

[End of Disc One]

Pretty good book, but not the best.  I'm here for the alien stuff, so I enjoyed it more than books 5 and 6.

[Lord of Oop North]

On 7/19/2018 at 12:25 AM, C.T. Phipps said:

e skip is a nonstarter for me as it seems like our protagonists have either changed too much or not at all. The idea they literally continued flying for 30 more years is kind of ridiculous, especially on the same starship. The Rocinante is a muscle car and those take constant replacing. I also feel bad about some of my favorite ships sinking like Bobbie and Alex. Mind you, I kind of like the fact Clarissa and Amos are in a platonic nonsexual effective marriage. Still, I'm utterly confused about some things. Mars was dying in the previous book. Is it dead now? The Belters were afraid of being wiped out but they seem just fine. What's going on here? I feel like this could have been achieved with a 10 or 15 year timeskip and while it'd still be unbelievable--it's more palatable.

From what I remember, the implication in the book was that there was a prolonged period of instability and famine due to the collapse of Earth. So while they may be "just fine" now, there was a period when things were really bad.

[Wethers]

On 3/9/2018 at 12:09 PM, IllusiveMan said:

Also, I struggled to believe Amos being a full psychopath and nearly killing Bobbie (trying to!) is brushed off as 'ah, got it out of our system!' Like, no. He would have killed a close friend of thirty years if she hadn't been better than him. From a tactician standpoint, it's a poor as hell idea to keep someone so volatile and murderous on board. From a friend standpoint, I'm sorry, I just can't believe they'd keep him around and treat him like family. 

I had a different read on this particular issue.

There's a reason Amos is seeking a fight with Bobbie and not the others in his tribe (outside his tribe, everyone is fair game).  It's because he knows she's the one person in his tribe that he's pretty much guaranteed to lose to in a fight.  He even says/thinks this outright.  So he feels "safe" knowing that the only variable consequences are the extent of both of their injuries and whether or not Amos himself dies.

That he's fine with those things just shows you how unhinged he is becoming with death approaching for Clarissa.  But the one thing he knows he's not doing is killing Bobbie, so he feels safe trying.  Because being his flavor of being sociopath (as he has always been) means that violence is the only way he knows to banish his demons.  And sometimes he wrongly assumes that's how others work too - e.g. he asks Holden cheerfully but completely seriously if he needs a fistfight after Fred Johnson dies in Babylon's Ashes.  But mostly he does it for himself.  And he has always been that kind of sociopath.  Just look at some of the psycho stuff he does in Nemesis Games on Earth, especially after the asteroid strikes, when he is also starting to come un-tethered from his ethical compass (for different reasons - not being near Holden and to a lesser extent Naomi).  Hell, even in Babylon's Ashes, there is a moment when Amos is questioning Holden about Holden's having disarmed the torpedoes fired at the Pella that he (Amos) nearly decides to kill Holden.  But in the end based on Holden's answer, Amos decides he's ok with it and does nothing - very parallel to his decision-making on Lydia's husband in Nemesis Games.  The text is very understated (Amos just puts down his plate) and Holden as usual doesn't realize what's going on behind that amiable smile.

Of course it's nowhere near ok that Amos is like that, but that's him.  And by the end of Persepolis Rising Bobbie ends up realizing in a way that Holden never did that Amos' mental issues, while occasionally useful, will always be a threat to them all unless managed.

[Jaxom 1974]

Finished last night finally.  Good to be caught up.

The thirty year gap remains odd...but the set up for the last couple books I enjoyed...I even didn't mind Drummer.  The realism with the distamce and how ships moving and communication works is what drives my Star Trek fueled brain crazy, though I know it's really qell done in these books. I'm just used to the instant gratification Picard gets calling across the galaxy...

 

 

[RedEyedGhost]

52 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Good to be caught up.

For 6 days  

[Jaxom 1974]

3 hours ago, RedEyedGhost said:

For 6 days  

Kinda what I was thinking actually...

[Corvinus85]

So I just downloaded Tiamath's Wrath on my Kindle, though I won't start until tomorrow. But the book opened up at the prologue, and I read the first sentence, and my reaction was WTF.

[Darth Richard II]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

So I just downloaded Tiamath's Wrath on my Kindle, though I won't start until tomorrow. But the book opened up at the prologue, and I read the first sentence, and my reaction was WTF.

Mine just shipped cause I ordered it late and it probably won't be here til Thursday, but I had to go take a peek anyway and HOLY SHIT WTF.

[RedEyedGhost]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

So I just downloaded Tiamath's Wrath on my Kindle, though I won't start until tomorrow. But the book opened up at the prologue, and I read the first sentence, and my reaction was WTF.

You both made me open up my download too, even though I won't get to it for at least another week. 

Not too surprising, she was old as dirt in the last book.

[shortstark]

Note to self, do not click on reveal hidden content 

[shortstark]

Not venturing into the dedicated Tiamat thread till i am done for fear of spoilers, can i just say.. Fucking hell! I love this book so far.. 

 

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah I’m 150 pages in and holy crap, the TENSION.

[Kyll.Ing.]

Oh, Tiamat's Wrath... where do I begin?

 

No, seriously, where? I seem to be completely unable to buy a copy. Only one bookstore in town carries it, and of course they were either sold out or hadn't gotten it in yet when I visited them on Saturday (I got conflicting messages). "But come back Monday!", they said. A new crate of books had arrived, and apparently copies of Tiamat's Wrath would be among them. The manager would just have to scan them into the system before they could be sold, and she wouldn't be back until Monday.

So Monday I came back, and now they said the store was sold out. But there was one copy left, that somebody had reserved, but if it wasn't picked up that day I could have it. So I got a message this morning, telling me that the book was indeed not picked up. After work, I rushed to the bookstore, arriving at 6:02 PM...

...and it turns out they close at 6 on Mondays, not 7 as they do the rest of the week. I guess my reservation is cancelled too now, so I'll have to be there when they open tomorrow. From tomorrow afternoon, coincidentally, I'll be out of town for four weeks. So I really hope there's a quiet hour at work around 10 so I can get to the bookstore and get my copy, or else I'll have to wait for it for some time.