What's your Nissa Nissa theory?

[Dorian Martell's son]

24 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Snip

First of all, the Iron islands had Iron, which carries a superior edge to bronze. This is not new. 
As for the rest, There is still nothing about the golden empire of the dawn making dragon steel. If it isn't in the text it didn't happen. So far, if dragonsteel is valyrian steel, only the valyrians have made it, so that would mean the last hero story is embellished as the stories were written down thousands of years after their original telling, just like the AA myth and why Nissa Nissa never existed

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, Dorian Martell's son said:

First of all, the Iron islands had Iron, which carries a superior edge to bronze. This is not new. 
As for the rest, There is still nothing about the golden empire of the dawn making dragon steel. If it isn't in the text it didn't happen. So far, if dragonsteel is valyrian steel, only the valyrians have made it, so that would mean the last hero story is embellished as the stories were written down thousands of years after their original telling, just like the AA myth and why Nissa Nissa never existed

Quiet possible. Iron is better than Bronze and this would hypothetically work. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

15 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

This isn't out right discussed in the books but it's set up. It's set up by Varamyr and the rules of Warging. Then we're given two creatures described as similar. 

There were no tales of skinchanging outside of westeros, so the comparison seems meaningless. I could be wrong, but GRRM does not usually make references and inferences like that. The point of the varamyr prologue is to setup Bran skinchanging hodor and other animals. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Quiet possible. Iron is better than Bronze and this would hypothetically work. 

Yes, it was literally stated in the world book 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, it was literally stated in the world book 

I know, by Maester Yandel. I just dont trust Maester Yandel and like to speculate where he does not. I take Old Nan, Septon Barth, Maester Denestan, and others when ever possible. 

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion IV

What he really wanted was the complete text of The Fires of the Freehold, Galendro's history of Valyria. No complete copy was known to Westeros, however; even the Citadel's lacked twenty-seven scrolls. They must have a library in Old Volantis, surely. I may find a better copy there, if I can find a way inside the Black Walls to the city's heart.

He was less hopeful concerning Septon Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. 

 

 

It is suggested.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

11 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

There were no tales of skinchanging outside of westeros, so the comparison seems meaningless. I could be wrong, but GRRM does not usually make references and inferences like that. The point of the varamyr prologue is to setup Bran skinchanging hodor and other animals. 

 

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - Beyond the Free Cities: Sothoryos

 

In Septon Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons. Though the bloodmages were alleged to have experimented mightily with their unnatural arts, this claim is considered far-fetched by most maesters, among them Maester Vanyon's Against the Unnatural contains certain proofs of dragons having existed in Westeros even in the earliest of days, before Valyria rose to be a power.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

Never doubt Septon Barth, it is known

[AlaskanSandman]

If i were to try to bridge all 4 legends, i would venture it went like this.

1. Curse placed on the Barrow of the First High King. Garth

2. Curse activated by the Grey King 

3. The Curse only effects him, as he was the only one to break the rule. Well, how to reproduce? You need a woman. Hence Nissa Nissa? So he turned her. But he was later brought down during the Battle for the Dawn by the Brother of Fire

4. Brother of Fire become L.C. but turns when he spots his kidnapped wife now an Other. So he turned. 

Idk, just a random thought. I can't make up my mind hahah

Edit- The hard part, is trying to figure out what is a lie by the Children of the Forest to trick us.

[hiemal]

49 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I wrestle with this one alot.

There's not a lot to go on, but I think dragons and firewyrms were created during a previous prophetic cycle- the one in which the Grey King is the Azor Ahai figure- by infusing wyverns and wyrms with elemental energy, The Lightbringer incident created a blood bond with dragons (among many other things).

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, hiemal said:

There's not a lot to go on, but I think dragons and firewyrms were created during a previous prophetic cycle- the one in which the Grey King is the Azor Ahai figure- by infusing wyverns and wyrms with elemental energy, The Lightbringer incident created a blood bond with dragons (among many other things).

Very possible. I have discussed else where in another thread what may have been happening in the Tent with Mirri Maz Dur. 

The main thought seemed to be that Mirri and Dany accidentally bonded dragons to Dany's blood again. Something possibly lost during the Dance of Dragons. 

Though, by mixing Firewyrms and Wyvers, you would essentially do this same thing as described above. Spending to much time in your beast is risky because you can get lost in your beast, and your beast possibly lost in you. 

Being that who ever back then would have gone through trial and error to succeed, they had to have spent too much time doing it. Else wise, why create a rule against doing just this?

The other rule about taking control of some one makes me wonder about Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa's myth and why either of them would do this thing. How did Azor get this idea? A vision perhaps? Why did she present her chest to him? Choice? or lack of control? 

There is alot to go on, which i why i really try hard to not ignore any and all clues. 

[AlaskanSandman]

29 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

If i were to try to bridge all 4 legends, i would venture it went like this.

1. Curse placed on the Barrow of the First High King. Garth

2. Curse activated by the Grey King 

3. The Curse only effects him, as he was the only one to break the rule. Well, how to reproduce? You need a woman. Hence Nissa Nissa? So he turned her. But he was later brought down during the Battle for the Dawn by the Brother of Fire

4. Brother of Fire become L.C. but turns when he spots his kidnapped wife now an Other. So he turned. 

Idk, just a random thought. I can't make up my mind hahah

Edit- The hard part, is trying to figure out what is a lie by the Children of the Forest to trick us.

Which, the Curse of Garin seems like a modified weaker version of this original curse on Garth.

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Never doubt Septon Barth, it is known

Uum, this is not the best way to approach Septon Barth.

He had a direct link to the king (something that the faith always wanted) and he was able to sway Jaehaerys with little effort. And he also supported closing off Night Fort, which unhinged the balance of magic and natural order in Westeros, especially the north with culture and indigenous beings. Barth is a "Steel Angel".

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Uum, this is not the best way to approach Septon Barth.

He had a direct link to the king (something that the faith always wanted) and he was able to sway Jaehaerys with little effort. And he also supported closing off Night Fort, which unhinged the balance of magic and natural order in Westeros, especially the north with culture and indigenous beings. Barth is a "Steel Angel".

Well put and good points  definitely an interesting figure. I would've loved a book on Jaehaerys and his reign so much more than Maegor

 

[AlaskanSandman]

Though i should add that for as interesting as this is, its equally as interesting that the Maesters contest everything he says. 

So for a Septon, apposed by the Maesters, aligned with a Targaryen King, is interesting. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I know, by Maester Yandel. I just dont trust Maester Yandel and like to speculate where he does not. I take Old Nan, Septon Barth, Maester Denestan, and others when ever possible. 

Yes, but something like the simplicity of the fear of Iron weapons to a bronze wielder shouldn't  be discounted. 

 

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

It is suggested.

It isn't suggested. We don't even know what is in the book.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

quote 

That quote didn't mention skinchanging dragons either, nor did it mention the Golden empire of the dawn having dragonsteel weapons 

[White Ravens]

20 hours ago, White Ravens said:

My theory is that Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai are legends not historical figures. 

 

 

15 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Is it just that you dont thinks the legends associated to them are true. Or everything to do with them is myth? Is this just a random myth? Does it serve a narrative purpose beyond filler? Who started this myth and why? Just because myths happen and so he gave them unrelated myths? What's your more thought provoking opinions? 

World building, maybe?  Its just that I think legends function on Planetos much as they have in societies throughout our own history on earth.  We don't know who started the myths of Thor or Hercules.  Very ancient myths from very ancient societies influenced the myths of less ancient societies that followed them (Roman myths echoing Greek myths for example).  Clearly GRRM imagined the very ancient Ashai empire creating a myth of a great hero and the magical sword he forged to save the world from darkness.  Maybe there are moral lessons to be learned about perseverance and personal sacrifice.  Only GRRM knows.  Clearly there are a few prophecies in these books but I don't share many peoples need to try to use them to predict potential parallel events or echoes in the upcoming books.  I don't believe that GRRM has laid out hints and details in these books with the intent of it being a big solvable puzzle, especially when we know that he gardens like a motherfucker, nurturing each beloved shrub and flower, allowing them to grow in their own way and influence the look and feel of the overall garden.  But hey even though I doubt that I (or most people) could predict what GRRM has in store for his characters I do enjoy reading the many theories that appear here on this forum, cracked or otherwise. 

[AlaskanSandman]

9 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, but something like the simplicity of the fear of Iron weapons to a bronze wielder shouldn't  be discounted. 

 

It isn't suggested. We don't even know what is in the book.

We do though

Quote

In Septon Barth's Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns, he speculated that the bloodmages of Valyria used wyvern stock to create dragons.

He just credits it to Valyria instead of the Empire of the Dawn. Barth seems to be ignoring the fact that Dragons existed before Valyria. 

He doesn't mention skinchanging though. One could say this is suggested by what we know of the warging rules, but it isn't out right mentioned.

10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

That quote didn't mention skinchanging dragons either, nor did it mention the Golden empire of the dawn having dragonsteel weapons 

And no Barth makes no mention of the Empire of the Dawn at all that im aware of. He also never makes mention of Dragonsteel of Valyrian Steel for that matter that i know of. Other sources are needed for those subjects.

[AlaskanSandman]

6 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

 

World building, maybe?  Its just that I think legends function on Planetos much as they have in societies throughout our own history on earth.  We don't know who started the myths of Thor or Hercules.  Very ancient myths from very ancient societies influenced the myths of less ancient societies that followed them (Roman myths echoing Greek myths for example).  Clearly GRRM imagined the very ancient Ashai empire creating a myth of a great hero and the magical sword he forged to save the world from darkness.  Maybe there are moral lessons to be learned about perseverance and personal sacrifice.  Only GRRM knows.  Clearly there are a few prophecies in these books but I don't share many peoples need to try to use them to predict potential parallel events or echoes in the upcoming books.  I don't believe that GRRM has laid out hints and details in these books with the intent of it being a big solvable puzzle, especially when we know that he gardens like a motherfucker, nurturing each beloved shrub and flower, allowing them to grow in their own way and influence the look and feel of the overall garden.  But hey even though I doubt that I (or most people) could predict what GRRM has in store for his characters I do enjoy reading the many theories that appear here on this forum, cracked or otherwise. 

This is true, though i would argue that some historians do trace Zeus and such to ancient Greek Kings before the Democracy. Some legends have passed over from Greek to Roman, but that's not the whole story. Those myths were middle eastern in origin. Which alot in those regions trace back to the same sources possibly as the Old Testament which mentions Noah and the Flood while the Greeks mention it and Deucalion. That Old Testament that many trace myths to, leaves out other scripts that could be argued are part of the older belief. This Old Testament mentions Lightbringer and Dragons, Giants, and the giver of Fire/Knowledge in the Devil, or Prometheus. 

   The Bible also goes on to mention the sons of god and the daughters of man. It also goes on to mention other people in the world when Adam and Eve are created. Which these people are dubbed evil peoples. 

This could be seen both in the Novel and mythically in our own world as humans having come from apes or some other primitive thing that was touched by god when we bred into his divine children. Sons of god, and daughters of man. This same thing could be said of our Empire of the Dawn who had dragons, giants, and lightbringer. 

[AlaskanSandman]

I would say Martin is drawing very heavily off real world legends in this context