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5 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Don't suppose you did...  it's just that I'm working through the possibilities, and I don't think young Robert appeared any more likely to kill babies than Ned. It was, after all, Tywin who killed the infant Targs - everyone was horrified, everyone felt the political necessity to let the crime pass. Robert is not the monster here.

So most likely Lyanna was afraid of the Kingsguard. They weren't going to hurt the baby, but they weren't going to let her take it away either. It sort of explains why they felt it necessary to fight Ned, because he would have obstructed their orders as well.

So, you think Eddard fought the Kingsguard after he promised Lyanna?

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On 18/12/2017 at 10:00 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

As stated at the end of the OP,  we still have to reconcile the discrepancy between Arya horseface and her aunt of surpassing loveliness. The key is found in Arya II, Game 22, when Eddard tells his youngest daughter that she resembles Lyanna, and that means that Jon does too...

I don't think it can be reconciled really. At best we could say Lyanna was not a classic beauty, but she had the charm and spirit that made her the most beautiful in the eyes of her admirers. This might explain why Robert said the statue didn't match her beauty - the animation was gone.

Anyway, being called horseface is a tremendous compliment from the author. Horses stand for spirit, drive, courage - something in that ballpark. Nothing damned Sansa so completely as taking a dislike to horses.

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16 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So, you think Eddard fought the Kingsguard after he promised Lyanna?

No, no :P. Ned goes to the tower and finds out that Lyanna is inside with her baby. He demands that they both be released to his protection. The Kingsguard say no.

[ETA If the objection is that Lyanna would feel secure after the death of the three KG - I don't think she would. One, she's just learned that her baby is Rhaegar's heir (probably), and the likely focus of future Blackfyre-style rebellions. Two, the KG have demonstrated how fanatically loyal Targ supporters can be. And three, legally the child belongs to its father's family and Robert's not likely to overturn that - he won't want to see the child, and he's already let slip Dany and Viserys. Plenty for Lyanna to worry about.]

Edited by Springwatch

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On 21.12.2017 at 9:00 PM, Springwatch said:

I don't think it can be reconciled really. At best we could say Lyanna was not a classic beauty, but she had the charm and spirit that made her the most beautiful in the eyes of her admirers. This might explain why Robert said the statue didn't match her beauty - the animation was gone.

Anyway, being called horseface is a tremendous compliment from the author. Horses stand for spirit, drive, courage - something in that ballpark. Nothing damned Sansa so completely as taking a dislike to horses.

In last book it was said somewhere (don't remember by whom exactly) that Jon and Arya both have long faces. And Eddard also had long face. It's a genetic trait of First Men. GRRM based First Men on Celts, and Andals on Anglo-Saxons. Celts had long skulls, and Anglo-Saxons more round. So similar looks of Eddark, Lyanna, Jon and Arya is caused by their First Men blood.

Also about GRRM and horses - he said that prior starting his work on Song, he didn't even knew what horses looked like.

Edited by Megorova

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The following is placed in the context of "the secret Jon Arryn had died for, but given the emphasis in the original and that this musing is by Eddard, it would appear to be applicable to the secret about Jon Snow and Eddard’s refusal to share it with his beloved Catelyn...

Quote

And when you have it, what then? Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. 

Eddard VIII, Game 33

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12 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The following is placed in the context of "the secret Jon Arryn had died for, but given the emphasis in the original and that this musing is by Eddard, it would appear to be applicable to the secret about Jon Snow and Eddard’s refusal to share it with his beloved Catelyn...

Eddard VIII, Game 33

That's a great quote. It does point to Ned having his own secrets.

Edited by Lady Dacey

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Here's that guilt again...

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Ned let him prattle on. After a time, he quieted and they rode in silence. The streets of King's Landing were dark and deserted. The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned's head, warm as blood and relentless as old guilts. Fat drops of water ran down his face.

Eddard IX, Game 35

Those old guilts introduce the subject of the next paragraph...

Quote

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

Eddard IX, Game 35

Does Eddard feel guilty for having some hand in arranging his dear sister's betrothal to his best friend? 

Or did his old guilts only involve the promise to lie?

Quote

Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

Eddard IX, Game 35

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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In Eddard X, Game 39...

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise . . . "

...

Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Apparently, Lyanna died soon after childbirth. Ned arrived to claim her before she died. Lyanna was defended by three of the Kingsguard, ser Arthur Dayne called the Sword of the Morning, Ser Oswell Whent, and the Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower called the White Bull. Arthur had a sad smile, suggesting the confrontation would be bittersweet. 

A question remains as to the vow Gerold mentioned. Was he referring to the vow of the Kingsguard to defend the king and their duty to protect the king's family, or was it a specific vow sworn to Rhaegar at the Tower of Joy? If it was the first, that would suggest either Lyanna or the babe were of the king's family. In other words, that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna as a second wife, and/or that Rhaegar was the father of the baby.

And now we see that Lyanna's roses were blue. 

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I am going to start a reread with this in mind. 

Quick question... how much out of the ordinary (aka crackpot) do you allow in your thread? 

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On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 7:57 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

In Eddard X, Game 39...

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise . . . "

...

Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

Apparently, Lyanna died soon after childbirth. Ned arrived to claim her before she died. Lyanna was defended by three of the Kingsguard, ser Arthur Dayne called the Sword of the Morning, Ser Oswell Whent, and the Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower called the White Bull. Arthur had a sad smile, suggesting the confrontation would be bittersweet. 

A question remains as to the vow Gerold mentioned. Was he referring to the vow of the Kingsguard to defend the king and their duty to protect the king's family, or was it a specific vow sworn to Rhaegar at the Tower of Joy? If it was the first, that would suggest either Lyanna or the babe were of the king's family. In other words, that Rhaegar had taken Lyanna as a second wife, and/or that Rhaegar was the father of the baby.

And now we see that Lyanna's roses were blue. 

On the topic of Ned's dream, just as a reminder, there is an SSM where GRRM indicates that this is a fever dream and, as such, should not be taken literally. 

Given that, I have a hard time deciding which parts of the Ned's dream to rely upon.  Is the order of events correct?  Are the quotes between Ned and the KG correct or not?  Does it make sense that Lyanna is calling out to Ned using "Eddard" and "Lord Eddard", especially when we have Ned recalling that she called him "Dearest Ned" in an earlier memory?  And why does Ned name all his friends except for Lord Dustin?  Why would he list a friend by title only?

I'm not trying to interfere with the premise of the OP, just trying to point out that, IMO at least, there are some valid questions as to which information in this dream can be relied upon and which cannot, especially given the SSM.

Keep up the good work!

 

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17 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I am going to start a reread with this in mind. 

Quick question... how much out of the ordinary (aka crackpot) do you allow in your thread? 

When it comes to RLJ, I don't allow for much in my own noggin, which is why I am sticking to the basics here, but I always appreciate it when you share your thoughts. 

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2 minutes ago, The Hidden Dragon said:

On the topic of Ned's dream, just as a reminder, there is an SSM where GRRM indicates that this is a fever dream and, as such, should not be taken literally. 

Given that, I have a hard time deciding which parts of the Ned's dream to rely upon.  Is the order of events correct?  Are the quotes between Ned and the KG correct or not?  Does it make sense that Lyanna is calling out to Ned using "Eddard" and "Lord Eddard", especially when we have Ned recalling that she called him "Dearest Ned" in an earlier memory?  And why does Ned name all his friends except for Lord Dustin?  Why would he list a friend by title only?

I'm not trying to interfere with the premise of the OP, just trying to point out that, IMO at least, there are some valid questions as to which information in this dream can be relied upon and which cannot, especially given the SSM.

Keep up the good work!

 

I try not to take any of the dreams or visions in this series literally, but rather, I try to look for the symbolism that the author is trying to convey to the reader. I doubt we will ever know exactly what happened at the Tower of Joy, and that's ok. All that really matters is what the author wants us to know in order to shape our understanding of the plot. 

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There was no place for him in Winterfell, no place in King's Landing either. Even his own mother had not had a place for him. The thought of her made him sad. He wondered who she had been, what she had looked like, why his father had left her. Because she was a whore or an adulteress, fool. Something dark and dishonorable, or else why was Lord Eddard too ashamed to speak of her?

Jon V, Game 41 (emphasis in the original)

No, that's not quite right, is it? By now the attentive reader, and especially the re-reader, should have guessed that Jon’s father was Rhaegar and his mother was Lyanna. But here's another prodding from the author for the reader to ask whether Eddard would have done such a thing. Does the author want us to question whether Lyanna was an adultress? 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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"Honor," she spat. "How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

Eddard XII, Game 45

Apparently, Catelyn is not the only person who presumes or suspects that Jon is the son of Eddard and Ashara. I would assume this is designed to keep the reader guessing. Here, we are presented with two possibilities, a Dornishpeasant and the grieving Ashara. Either way, the author directs the reader to Eddard’s presence in Dorne for the birth of Jon, and we will not learn of any battles fought in Dorne except for the Tower of Joy. Keep in mind that at this point, we haven’t yet learned from where Wylla hails. Notably, this is when we learn that Ashara threw herself into the sea.

Quote

He could no longer tell the difference between waking and sleeping. The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon's laughter, and Robert's berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king's pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aeys. Afterward, Ser Oswell Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

Eddard XV, Game 58

Off-topic, this suggests that Eddard is not as dour as the story suggests since he’s dreaming of green grass, warm days, the sweet taste of wine, and his brother’s laughter, as well as Robert’s fighting ability, and the admission of a new Kingsguard. More to our point, though, Eddard’sdream describes the moment at Harrenhal, when all the smiles died...

Quote

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid SerArthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Eddard XV, Game 58

The imagery is unmistakable... The roses that Lyanna was fond of were blue as frost, and frost kills. And in case the reader misses that the laurel of blue roses that Rhaegar gives to Lyanna bears thorns beneath petals, and those thorns draw blood. And then we are reminded immediately of Eddard's promise to Lyanna in her bed of blood, associated with the blue roses, like the ones given to her by Rhaegar...

Quote

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

Eddard XV, Game 58

Bye bye, Eddard.

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And in case the reader misses that the laurel of blue roses that Rhaegar gives to Lyanna bears thorns beneath petals, and those thorns draw blood.

About this part, I've wondered about these thorns and if they truly existed in the actual crown. The crown of flowers spiraled things into a nightmare of thorns clawing at him and his fingers bleeding and he wakes up shaking. I wonder if the thorns in the crown are not just a metaphor for Ned's own suffering from everything that went down after.

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49 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

About this part, I've wondered about these thorns and if they truly existed in the actual crown. The crown of flowers spiraled things into a nightmare of thorns clawing at him and his fingers bleeding and he wakes up shaking. I wonder if the thorns in the crown are not just a metaphor for Ned's own suffering from everything that went down after.

Whether the "actual" laurel had thorns is not relevant. All that matters is what the author is telling us. Listen to the storyteller--this is a work of fiction, not a history. (There was no laurel. There was no Rhaegar. There was no Lyanna. There was no Eddard. There is only The George and our understanding of what he is telling us.) 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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38 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Whether the "actual" laurel had thorns is not relevant. All that matters is what the author is telling us. Listen to the storyteller--this is a work of fiction, not a history. (There was no laurel. There was no Rhaegar. There was no Lyanna. There was no Eddard. There is only The George and our understanding of what he is telling us.) 

In the beginning, there was Lisa [Tuttle]...

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Whether the "actual" laurel had thorns is not relevant. All that matters is what the author is telling us. Listen to the storyteller--this is a work of fiction, not a history. (There was no laurel. There was no Rhaegar. There was no Lyanna. There was no Eddard. There is only The George and our understanding of what he is telling us.) 

I was just making a comment in passing. I know it's a work of fiction. 

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1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I was just making a comment in passing. I know it's a work of fiction. 

I think I misunderstood what you were saying. 

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