Bloodraven is not the Three Eye'd Crow.

[Faera]

I think the concept of Bran being the one to "call Jon back from the dead" is a really neat one and it is one of my favourite tin-foils. It's right up there with the presumption I have that Coldhands is, somehow, literally Bran's Monster as in Bran made him. Having recently plowed my way through ADwD again, I have to admit though that I am leaning more towards the Three-Eyed Crow simply being Bran himself than anyone else, (as in it is an aspect of Bran's power), though this idea that Bran and Jon are spiritually connected (as well as being the two most powerful wargs of their generation set) has always been an idea I loved since their weird weirwood dream hook up.

My next intention is to go back and re-read Bran (and maybe Jon's) chapters themselves as I really want to try and home-in on their possible connections. I'm really not sold on the idea Jon is the 3EC though I suppose it would be interesting.

4 hours ago, Megorova said:

The crow from those dreams are Bloodraven, but the tree is a parasite, and it fused itself with Bloodraven and was speaking thru him in those dreams, i.e. thru the crow. But could be that Bloodraven himself (what is left of his consciousness) isn't aware of the fact, that the tree was talking to Bran thru him (Bloodraven).

My problem with that is because the Crow appears without the Tree and vice versa as well as them appearing together. If the tree was simply a parasite then it would surely only appear with the 3EC or the 3EC would always appear with the tree. It was actually Bran's own distinction between the tree and the crow dreams were what initially made me wonder whether the 3EC and the talking tree were two separate entities. He remarks that "I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me" (As he makes no mention of the 3EC here, it likely means he does have pure tree dreams) and it is later he later states that the tree sometimes appears at the same time as the crow, "calling [his] name."

Thus, they are asking for different things. The tree is simply calling to Bran while the 3EC holds conversations with him, demanding that he "fly or die" and trying to peck his third eye open. The fact that BR himself indicates that he has been watching Bran (perhaps trying to communicate with him) long before the 3EC appeared. Brynden feels like he has been trying to reach out for Bran since before he fell and his powers first began to awaken. In comparison, the crow appeared only after Bran fell. So, I would say there is a separation of Crow and Tree. Brynden is the tree, the Crow is probably something else.

[Clegane'sPup]

Yes, Bran has multiple images in his dreams. In one of his early dreams he dreamt that Eddard was down in the crypts.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII       The mention of dreams reminded him. "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."    "And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.     "It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."      The maester had only been half listening, Bran could tell. He lifted his eye from the tube, blinking. "Hodor won't …?"/

Hodor wouldn’t take Bran there.  Luwin has Osha take Bran there. They find Rickon is down there. It appears that Rickon also dreamt of Eddard being in the crypts.

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII    "Shaggy," a small voice called. When Bran looked up, his little brother was standing in the mouth of Father's tomb. With one final snap at Summer's face, Shaggydog broke off and bounded to Rickon's side. "You let my father be," Rickon warned Luwin. "You let him be."   "Rickon," Bran said softly. "Father's not here." "Yes he is. I saw him." Tears glistened on Rickon's face. "I saw him last night." "In your dream …?"    Rickon nodded. "You leave him. You leave him be. He's coming home now, like he promised. He's coming home."      Bran had never seen Maester Luwin look so uncertain before./

The group leaves the crypts and returns to the maesters tower where they have a conversation. The chapter is a good read lots of information.  They talk about dreams, CotF, dragonglass/obsidian. Osha, the wildling woman, makes some rather interesting remarks.

“The children of the forest could tell you a thing or two about dreaming.”

“North of the Wall, things are different. That’s where the children went, and the giants and the other old races.”

 

When Luwin is giving his history lesson Summer begins to howl. Then Shaggy chimes in. Then Bran thinks---

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII        Summer began to howl.    Maester Luwin broke off, startled. When Shaggydog bounded to his feet and added his voice to his brother's, dread clutched at Bran's heart. "It's coming," he whispered, with the certainty of despair. He had known it since last night, he realized, since the crow had led him down into the crypts to say farewell. He had known it, but he had not believed. He had wanted Maester Luwin to be right. The crow, he thought, the three-eyed crow …  The howling stopped as suddenly as it had begun. Summer padded across the tower floor to Shaggydog, and began to lick at a mat of bloody fur on the back of his brother's neck. From the window came a flutter of wings./

The raven brought word of Eddard’s death. Both Bran and Rickon had the dream about their father.

Bran has the vocabulary and knowledge of an eight year old. He doesn’t know he is warging Summer until the Reed kids show up and tell him. He describes it as a wolf dream. In one of these books Bran prays to the old gods not to send a dream tonight. The weirwoods and heart tree represents the old gods. 

A Clash of Kings - Bran I    "Do trees dream?" "Trees? No . . ."   "They do," Bran said with sudden certainty. "They dream tree dreams. I dream of a tree sometimes. A weirwood, like the one in the godswood. It calls to me. The wolf dreams are better. I smell things, and sometimes I can taste the blood."

Bran interacted with crows not ravens.  Ravens accompany Coldhands. Coldhands is looking for, as he says, the one. The Ravens can enter the cave. Coldhands can’t. Bran skinchanges a raven. The raven had a spirit in it. The spirit was that of a CotF/singer.

Martin uses different words to describe the same thing, which annoyed me to no end on the first read ---CotF/singers, dragonglass/obsidian, free folk/wildlings, etc .

According to the old man in the CotF cave Bran is a greenseer by blood. To me that means he was born a greenseer. He has the gift. It didn’t start to awaken until the deirwolves were introduced into the story. Someone in the story, I think it was Jon said, “Your children were meant to have these pups.” As a bonus, Jon got one too --- because Jon heard a noise that no one else heard.

Martin spent five books getting Bran to what is in Bran’s mind’s eye the three eyed crow.  The old man in the cave tells Bran he had been watching for a while. He also tells Bran something along the line --- now you see why I could not come to you except in dreams. Bran’s fly or die dream brought him out of his comma.

Has the the third eye symbol been brought up ---- a gateway to enlightenment or higher consciousness. In some circles the third eye is a mystical path to knowledge. A short example would be Syrio’s little speech to Arya

A Game of Thrones - Arya IV     Arya thought about it. "You saw what was there."   "Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth."

Is the below quote part of the dream that woke Bran from his comma?

A Game of Thrones - Bran III      Because winter is coming.   Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.     "Can a man still be brave if he's afraid?" he heard his own voice saying, small and far away.

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV     "Was it magic?"     "Call it that for want of a better word, if you must. At heart it was only a different sort of knowledge."

 

 

 

[ravenous reader]

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Interesting also is that BR lured him there to be his replacement & effectively "chain" him to the earth, while in a Jojen (I believe, could have been Bran's) green dream the 3EC is trying to peck at the chains holding Bran to the earth, in an attempt to free him. This also seems to contradict BR being the 3EC as BR is planning on chaining him to the earth. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

Before them a pale lord in ebon finery sat dreaming in a tangled nest of roots, a woven weirwood throne that embraced his withered limbs as a mother does a child.

 

Or, from a certain perspective, a cage.

A 'weir' is a 'garth' or fish trap.  Wolves (as well as dragons) can also get caught in 'fish traps':

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A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

Meera moved in a wary circle, her net dangling loose in her left hand, the slender three-pronged frog spear poised in her right. Summer followed her with his golden eyes, turning, his tail held stiff and tall. Watching, watching . . .

"Yai!" the girl shouted, the spear darting out. The wolf slid to the left and leapt before she could draw back the spear. Meera cast her net, the tangles unfolding in the air before her. Summer's leap carried him into it. He dragged it with him as he slammed into her chest and knocked her over backward. Her spear went spinning away. The damp grass cushioned her fall but the breath went out of her in an "Oof." The wolf crouched atop her.

Bran hooted. "You lose."

"She wins," her brother Jojen said. "Summer's snared."

 

Quote

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him.

Like a spider wrapping its prey.

The weirwood is entombing the greenseer underground.

Quote

What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents.

The greenseer is shackled by and to the tree.  Immobilized.

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One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh,

The tree is pinioning him, penetrating him -- you might even say, raping him!

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to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

Basically, the tree is mummifying the human.

As you correctly point out, the three-eyed crow in Jojen's dream is doing the opposite, namely attempting to free the chained wolf and prevent him from being turned to stone.  When weirwoods petrify, they turn to stone.

Jojen -- like all seers do on occasion-- misinterpreted the prophecy.  

[Megorova]

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So he openly admits he is coming to Bran in his dreams. What motive would he have to lie & say he isn't the crow coming to him in his dreams if he is? He has motive to lie about why he is calling Bran to him, but not about what he is appearing as. 

That's because the one who is talking to Bran is a Tree.

Tree is speaking thru body of Bloodraven.

Quote

Before them a pale lord in ebon finery sat dreaming in a tangled nest of roots, a woven weirwood throne that embraced his withered limbs as a mother does a child.

His body was so skeletal and his clothes so rotted that at first Bran took him for another corpse, a dead man propped up so long that the roots had grown over him, under him, and through him. What skin the corpse lord showed was white, save for a bloody blotch that crept up his neck onto his cheek. His white hair was fine and thin as root hair and long enough to brush against the earthen floor. Roots coiled around his legs like wooden serpents. One burrowed through his breeches into the desiccated flesh of his thigh, to emerge again from his shoulder. A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

“A … crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late.”

“I’m here,” Bran said, “only I’m broken. Will you … will you fix me … my legs, I mean?”

“No,” said the pale lord. “That is beyond my powers.”

Bran’s eyes filled with tears. We came such a long way. The chamber echoed to the sound of the black river.

“You will never walk again, Bran,” the pale lips promised, “but you will fly.”

Tree is saying to Bran that previously it was Lord Bloodraven, who was a Blackfyre and crow of Night's Watch, but now that identity got fused with the Tree. Now Bloodraven, 3EC and the Tree is tha same being. Though the body of Bloodraven is dying, thus the Tree needs a new human body to parasite it. The body uses a Tree to feed itself, but the Tree also needs, for some reason, to be fused with human body. It's a symbioz.

“I have been many things" <- this is the Tree speaking to Bran.

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“Bones,” said Bran. “It’s bones.” The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one.

The Tree merged with all of them, one after another. And when it sucked out life from one, it needed a replacement. And Children brought in that cave new prey.

That Tree is a parasite and predator. It lures its victims thru dreams and visions, and then fuses with them, and eat their life. And Children is using that monster Tree to "see" thru eyes of weirwood trees and crows.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Faera said:

So, I would say there is a separation of Crow and Tree. Brynden is the tree, the Crow is probably something else.

Two passages where Mormont's Raven seems to mimic the crow in Bran's dreams:

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

"Good," Mormont said. "We've seen the dead come back, you and me, and it's not something I care to see again." He ate the egg in two bites and flicked a bit of shell out from between his teeth. "Your brother is in the field with all the power of the north behind him. Any one of his lords bannermen commands more swords than you'll find in all the Night's Watch. Why do you imagine that they need your help? Are you such a mighty warrior, or do you carry a grumkin in your pocket to magic up your sword?"

Jon had no answer for him. The raven was pecking at an egg, breaking the shell. Pushing his beak through the hole, he pulled out morsels of white and yoke.

A Clash of Kings - Bran II

That night Bran prayed to his father's gods for dreamless sleep. If the gods heard, they mocked his hopes, for the nightmare they sent was worse than any wolf dream.

"Fly or die!" cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again. What he saw made him gasp in fear. He was clinging to a tower miles high, and his fingers were slipping, nails scrabbling at the stone, his legs dragging him down, stupid useless dead legs. "Help me!" he cried. A golden man appeared in the sky above him and pulled him up. "The things I do for love," he murmured softly as he tossed him out kicking into empty air.

 

 

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Interesting also is that BR lured him there to be his replacement & effectively "chain" him to the earth, while in a Jojen (I believe, could have been Bran's) green dream the 3EC is trying to peck at the chains holding Bran to the earth, in an attempt to free him. This also seems to contradict BR being the 3EC as BR is planning on chaining him to the earth. 

Also your reasoning doesn't explain why Bran has a tree appearing to him as well.

BR is a Tree and 3EC is Bloodraven.

... That's a bad explanation

Let's try this way:

the Tree physically "posessed" body of Bloodraven, and 3EC is soul/conciousness of Brynden Rivers.  

Though Brynden himself is also still present in his original body.

The Tree lured Bran to become a replacement of BR, when Brynden's body will die.

3EC did tried to warn Bran, that if he will come, he will be "chained".

 

That's because the Tree and Bloodraven/3EC fused so much, that sometimes even in dreams they appear together. The Tree not only fused with BR's body, but it also nearly entirely fused with his soul. And what part of BR's soul is still separated from the Tree's consciousness, is represented in spiritual world as 3EC.

When BR/Tree was speaking with Bran, it didn't knew that BR/3EC was also appearing in Bran's visions/dreams. Maybe the Tree doesn't know that soul/mind of Bloodraven wasn't entirely absorbed by it/Tree. The thing is, people thought that Lord Bloodraven was a "wizard". Even while he was still serving at Targaryen's court, people even then said that he has 1001 eyes. So could be that whatever magic he knew, partially protected his soul/consciousness from being entirely absorbed by the Tree.

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

If the crow & the tree are one entity though why are they appearing as two separate entities? Some times alone, sometimes together. 

The tree fusing itself to BR & speaking through him doesn't really explain the crow part. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying but the tree being a parasite = fused itself to BR =\= the crow is BR & the tree is speaking through BR .... And the crow? I'm not following you I guess. 

Because sometimes Bloodraven and the Tree are entirely fused, both body and soul, and then in dreams the Tree is a tree and a crow, or only tree. But sometimes the Tree is not a crow, and crow is not a Tree. The Tree is warging into birds, so it can also sometimes warg into crow (which is soul/consciousness of Bloodraven).

Sometimes they are one entity, and sometimes they are two. When BR's consciousness manages to separate from the Tree, he has different motives, than when he is one with the Tree.

Possession is complicated. And in this case it's double possession, of body and soul.

Though when Bloodraven's body will die, then the situation will become clearer. Because then the Tree, or maybe Children will tell Bran the truth, what they really want from him - to become Bloodraven's replacement and fuse his body and soul with the Tree.

4 hours ago, Faera said:

1. The fact that BR himself indicates that he has been watching Bran (perhaps trying to communicate with him) long before the 3EC appeared.

2. Brynden feels like he has been trying to reach out for Bran since before he fell and his powers first began to awaken.

3. In comparison, the crow appeared only after Bran fell. So, I would say there is a separation of Crow and Tree. Brynden is the tree, the Crow is probably something else.

Read this post, and my two posts above it, on this page.

1. The Tree said that it was watching Bran.

2. This was also done by the Tree.

3. The Crow is Brynden. Sometimes. When Brynden's soul is managing to separate from the Tree's soul. The Tree's soul is actually a merge of all those beings that it "ate".

When Bran fell, what was left from Brynden's soul, managed to partially detatch itself from the Tree's consciousness, and he (the Crow) tried to save Bran from becoming the Tree's prey. Or he wanted Bran to come to him, and kill his/Brynden's body. Or he wanted Bran to stop the Tree.

 

Whatever it was, we will know it only when Brynden's body will die.

 

Could be that when Bran fell, the Tree was very glad that soon it will eat fresh meat (Bran), instead of rotting Bloodraven. So in this moment of delight towards Bran, and boredom towards Brynden, the Tree's control over Brynden, for a moment faltered. And this moment, what was left of Brynden's soul (protected by Brynden's magical abilities, from being entirely fused with the Tree), projected itself into spiritual world as 3EC.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

59 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Tree merged with all of them, one after another. And when it sucked out life from one, it needed a replacement. And Children brought in that cave new prey.

That Tree is a parasite and predator. It lures its victims thru dreams and visions, and then fuses with them, and eat their life. And Children is using that monster Tree to "see" thru eyes of weirwood trees and crows.

Right I understand all of that but the tree being merged with BR doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the 3EC. I still don't understand what motive BR would have to lie about being the 3EC. You said because he didn't want Bran to know he was trying to get him to come to him but that doesn't really make sense given what else we know. 

 

49 minutes ago, Megorova said:

The Tree lured Bran to become a replacement of BR, when Brynden's body will die.

3EC did tried to warn Bran, that if he will come, he will be "chained".

 

That's because the Tree and Bloodraven/3EC fused so much, that sometimes even in dreams they appear together. The Tree not only fused with BR's body, but it also nearly entirely fused with his soul. And what part of BR's soul is still separated from the Tree's consciousness, is represented in spiritual world as 3EC.

When BR/Tree was speaking with Bran, it didn't knew that BR/3EC was also appearing in Bran's visions/dreams. Maybe the Tree doesn't know that soul/mind of Bloodraven wasn't entirely absorbed by it/Tree. The thing is, people thought that Lord Bloodraven was a "wizard". Even while he was still serving at Targaryen's court, people even then said that he has 1001 eyes. So could be that whatever magic he knew, partially protected his soul/consciousness from being entirely absorbed by the Tree.

I understand what you are saying now but it seems much more complicated than just assuming the 3EC is not BR. You could be right but what makes you believe this is a more likely answer than BR not being the 3EC? 

It just seems to me that we are shown a separation between the 3EC & the tree. It makes much more sense to me that's because they are separate rather than BR, the tree, & 3EC all being the same thing & sometimes more fused than others & one portion of them wanting to warn Bran against BR & another calling him to BR etc

[Faera]

46 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Two passages where Mormont's Raven seems to mimic the crow in Bran's dreams

Hmmmm.... TBH I don't really see too much of a textual parallel there at all despite the fact they are performing a similar action. Again, I would say Mormont's raven is not connected to the 3EC though I do think the raven is being skinchanged at different points. Probably by Bloodraven, though I'd love for it to be my eternal wildcard Benjen. 

46 minutes ago, Megorova said:

the Tree physically "posessed" body of Bloodraven, and 3EC is soul/conciousness of Brynden Rivers.  

2

I personally don't think the weirwood tree is possessing the body of BR, though it would be an interesting concept.

However, another issue I have always had with the idea that BR is the 3EC ever since we found out "Tree Wizard" was Bloodraven -- why would his soul/spirit take the form of a crow with three eyes? He's associated with ravens, not crows, and he is known for having one eye as well as a thousand eyes. Not three.

BR having been in the Night's Watch doesn't feel nearly a good enough explanation as to why his soul would take the form of a crow over a raven.

[LynnS]

12 minutes ago, Faera said:

Hmmmm.... TBH I don't really see too much of a textual parallel there at all despite the fact they are performing a similar action. Again, I would say Mormont's raven is not connected to the 3EC though I do think the raven is being skinchanged at different points. Probably by Bloodraven, though I'd love for it to be my eternal wildcard Benjen. 

Jon is always aware of the bird.  It's the bird who tells him to burn the wights. Drilling into the shell, pulling out bits of yolk and tissue is parallel to the 3EC drilling into Bran's skull and pulling out out bits of bone and tissue.   It could be Bloodraven, but again, I'm in favor of Uncle Benjen telling and showing Jon what to do. 

 

[Faera]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Jon is always aware of the bird.  It's the bird who tells him to burn the wights. Drilling into the shell, pulling out bits of yolk and tissue is parallel to the 3EC drilling into Bran's skull and pulling out out bits of bone and tissue.   It could be Bloodraven, but again, I'm in favor of Uncle Benjen telling and showing Jon what to do. 

2

I get that. Though I would have preferred more linguistic parallels between the 3EC and Mormont's Raven's pecking on the forehead/egg respectfully, (and perhaps the egg scene actually occurring in between the Raven giving Jon advice), I do get your point; the two birds aren't literally connected but represent the same thing for Bran and Jon -- insight and knowledge.

Bloodraven being both the 3EC and skinchanging Mormont's Raven would be a literal connection between them, too, though as already stated I don't necessarily think BR is either. Then again, I just really, really want Benjen to be the raven for no other reason that it seems fitting he be the one to guide Jon. Though, I suppose, if BR really is both the 3EC and the Raven it might reinforce even more than perhaps Jon was BR's backup if Bran hadn't heeded his "call to action".

[LynnS]

13 minutes ago, Faera said:

Bloodraven being both the 3EC and skinchanging Mormont's Raven would be a literal connection between them, too, though as already stated I don't necessarily think BR is either. Then again, I just really, really want Benjen to be the raven for no other reason that it seems fitting he be the one to guide Jon. Though, I suppose, if BR really is both the 3EC and the Raven it might reinforce even more than perhaps Jon was BR's backup if Bran hadn't heeded his "call to action".

Yes and it would be fitting if Jon is also looking out for Bran.

[Faera]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes and it would be fitting if Jon is also looking out for Bran.

I still don't subscribe to this idea myself. 

Still think it could just be Bran himself, or something else we've yet to see.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Faera said:

I still don't subscribe to this idea myself. 

Still think it could just be Bran himself, or something else we've yet to see.

Yup, that's fine.

[Megorova]

6 hours ago, Faera said:

Thus, they are asking for different things. The tree is simply calling to Bran while the 3EC holds conversations with him, demanding that he "fly or die" and trying to peck his third eye open.

Fly or die could be not about opening Bran's third eye. Maybe it means - escape or the Tree will eat you.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You could be right but what makes you believe this is a more likely answer than BR not being the 3EC? 

1. 3EC is Brynden Rivers. His soul projected itself into spiritual world in a form of a crow. Birds have two eyes, but 3EC has three. That's because when Brynden created projection of his soul, he also projected on it his one eye, and thus as result, the bird had two normal eyes and one Brynden's eye. So 3EC IS Brynden. But 3EC doesn't exist in material world, so it's only a soul (part of it).

The man from that cave, that is fused with the Tree, is definitely Lord Bloodraven - he has Bloodraven's birth mark on his cheek.

The man in the cave (body of Brynden) said to Bran that he is not 3EC.

Either he is lying (but why would he?), or if he is saying truth, then the meaning of "1. the man in the cave is body of Brynden Rivers, 2. he said that he isn't the 3EC, 3. Brynden Rivers is the 3EC (Bran saw that man, and by his eye recognised him as 3EC)" is that Brynden's body is possessed by the Tree, while 3EC is Brynden's soul.

2 hours ago, Faera said:

1. However, another issue I have always had with the idea that BR is the 3EC ever since we found out "Tree Wizard" was Bloodraven -- why would his soul/spirit take the form of a crow with three eyes? He's associated with ravens, not crows, and he is known for having one eye as well as a thousand eyes. Not three.

2. BR having been in the Night's Watch doesn't feel nearly a good enough explanation as to why his soul would take the form of a crow over a raven.

1. Read above, starting with 1. 3EC is Brynden Rivers.

2. The Tree is able to warg into ravens. It sees the world thru eyes of weirwood trees, and thru eyes of ravens. So to distinguish himself from the Tree, and also from his possessed body, which is Lord Bloodraven, but not him anymore, not Brynden, but rather part of the Tree, he (what was left of Brynden's soul) projected itself as a crow. 

Why didn't he projected himself as a cat, or a wolf, or a dog, or a raven, or whatever? Why a crow? -> Bran had three kinds of dreams - wierwood dreams, crow dreams, and wolf dreams. And he liked the most his wolf dreams, that's because in them he felt himself free and alive. While Brynden was fused with the Tree, he also saw thru three kinds of eyes - eyes of weirwood, eyes of ravens, and his own eyes - eyes of Brynden River's (human body, trapped in a cave, pierced by multiple tree roots, rotting, and in constant pain, unable to escape). So for many years to him raven "dreams" were the biggest freedom that he was able to attain. So to him birds became associated with freedom. Birds = freedom. Though Ravens = the Tree, thus Ravens =/= freedom. Also prior he joined Night's Watch he was awaiting his execution. But instead he was sent to Night's Watch, and became a Crow. So that way for him another association was created, Crow = life.

He was freed from the Tree for a mere seconds, so he thought about freedom/birds/crow, and his soul got projected in a spiritual world as 3EC.

 

What kind of meat, do you think it was?

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And almost every day they ate blood stew, thickened with barley and onions and chunks of meat. Jojen thought it might be squirrel meat, and Meera said that it was rat. Bran did not care. It was meat and it was good. The stewing made it tender.

I think that it was one of this:

1. ravens

2. Children

3. wights.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

. 3EC is Brynden Rivers. His soul projected itself into spiritual world in a form of a crow. Birds have two eyes, but 3EC has three. That's because when Brynden created projection of his soul, he also projected on it his one eye, and thus as result, the bird had two normal eyes and one Brynden's eye. So 3EC IS Brynden. But 3EC doesn't exist in material world, so it's only a soul (part of it).

The man from that cave, that is fused with the Tree, is definitely Lord Bloodraven - he has Bloodraven's birth mark on his cheek.

The man in the cave (body of Brynden) said to Bran that he is not 3EC.

Either he is lying (but why would he?), or if he is saying truth, then the meaning of "1. the man in the cave is body of Brynden Rivers, 2. he said that he isn't the 3EC, 3. Brynden Rivers is the 3EC (Bran saw that man, and by his eye recognised him as 3EC)" is that Brynden's body is possessed by the Tree, while 3EC is Brynden's soul.

I was asking more along the lines of what textual evidence do you have to your claims? 

 

[maudisdottir]

I always assumed that Bran was chained by his immobility, but BR/the 3EC would teach him to fly - which he would need to go metaphorically chain himself to a tree to achieve, but it would also open up a whole world of knowledge. Which yes, is the most obvious solution, but I like it best as it gives Bran the opportunity to live a life beyond his human limitations.

[Faera]

11 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I always assumed that Bran was chained by his immobility, but BR/the 3EC would teach him to fly - which he would need to go metaphorically chain himself to a tree to achieve, but it would also open up a whole world of knowledge. Which yes, is the most obvious solution, but I like it best as it gives Bran the opportunity to live a life beyond his human limitations.

I always felt the same but for the fact that it is more what others expect of and want for Bran, rather than what he truly wants for himself. He really isn't all that big on the idea of being trapped in a cave, losing what little of his body he has left to a tree...  and who can blame him? Getting married to a tree and essentially tricked into going to a creepy cave probably isn't high on the list of Bran's priorities.  I always felt was more important with Bran's character is his desire to regain some autonomy and control after losing his legs. Hence why I have never bought the idea that he's staying in that cave or getting wrapped up in that tree.

[LynnS]

On 12/13/2017 at 8:21 PM, ravenous reader said:

  The Night's King 'flying down from the Wall,' or leaving his post, can be understood symbolically as a crow flying down off a tree, or leaving his perch, which makes the Wall itself a giant tree, as its foundation of the weirwood at the 'Black Gate' suggests.  It follows, that the person imprisoned in the Black Gate is a greenseer.

I'm delighted that @The Fattest Leechhas the most intruiqing take on the Night's King and his corpse queen by deciphering the meaning of the song "The Bear and the Maiden Fair"!  I leave it to her to elaborate if she chooses.   

I came across some stuff that might interest you though!  Martin seems to be drawing from the Old Norse concept of self and it's parts: the mind, body and soul which are connected to shape shifting or that parts of the self can separate:

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The Hamr

Hamr (pronounced like the English word “hammer”) literally translates to “shape” or “skin.” The hamr is one’s form or appearance, that which others perceive through sensory observation. Unlike in our modern worldview, however, that which is perceived by the senses is not absolutely and unalterably static and fixed. In fact, hamr is the most crucial word in the Old Norse lexicon of shapeshifting. The Old Norse phrase that denotes the process of shapeshifting is skipta hömum, “changing hamr,” and the quality of being able to perform this feat is called hamramr, “of strong hamr.”[2]

The Hugr

Hugr can be most satisfactorily translated as “thought” or “mind.” It corresponds to someone’s personality and conscious cognitive processes, and therefore overlaps considerably with what we today would call someone’s “inner self.”[3]

The hugr generally stays within its “owner,” but can at times create effects in faraway people just by thinking about them in a certain way. This is particularly possible for people who are described as having an exceptionally strong hugr.[4]

The Fylgja

Remember the cats, ravens, and other familiar spirits who are often the companions of witches in European folktales? These are fylgjur (pronounced “FILG-yur”) in the plural and fylgja (pronounced “FILG-ya”) in the singular. The fylgja is generally perceived in an animal form by those with second sight, although human fylgjur aren’t unheard-of. It’s an attendant spirit whose well-being is intimately tied to that of its owner – for example, if the fylgja dies, its owner dies, too. Its character and form are closely connected to the character of its owner; a person of noble birth might have a bear fylgja, a savage and violent person, a wolf, or a gluttonous person, a pig.

https://norse-mythology.org/concepts/the-parts-of-the-self/

The Old Norse concept of time is also interesting as it relates to the tree and the well.

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The Well of Urd corresponds to the past tense. It is the reservoir of completed or ongoing actions that nourish the tree and influence its growth. Yggdrasil, in turn, corresponds to the present tense, that which is being actualized here and now.

What of intention and necessity, then? This is the water that permeates the image, flowing up from the well into the tree, dripping from the leaves of the tree as dew, and returning to the well, where it then seeps back up into the tree.[5]

Here, time is cyclical rather than linear. The present returns to the past, where it retroactively changes the past. The new past, in turn, is reabsorbed into a new present, whose originality is an outgrowth of the give-and-take between the waters of the well and the the waters of the tree.

  I'm reminded here of Bran descending into the well of the Black Gate and the drop of water falling onto him like a salt tear.

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Destiny cycles through the image, following the course of the water. As one scholar puts it, destiny “governs the working out of the past into the present (or, more accurately, the working in of the present into the past).”[2] In other words, destiny is the often-inscrutable force that causes the past to exert its particular influences upon the present, which, in this image, necessarily also includes the influence of the present upon the past and, thereby, the potential for a new and different present. 

Some, however, take this process into their own hands and shape destiny more actively and more potently.

An interesting description of the meeting between Ghost-Jon and Weir-Bran.

  https://norse-mythology.org/cosmology/yggdrasil-and-the-well-of-urd/
 

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The Norns:

In the Well of Urd live the Norns, three wise women who “carve into the tree the lives and destinies of children.”[3] This is another expression of the influence of the past (the well) upon the present (the tree).

Their names are Urd (Old Norse Urðr, “What Once Was”), Verdandi (Old Norse Verðandi, “What Is Coming into Being”) and Skuld (Old Norse Skuld, “What Shall Be”). A common misconception is that they correspond to the past, present, and future in a linear conception of time. A more sensitive analysis shows that they correspond instead to past, present, and necessity in a cyclical conception of time, as is discussed here.[1]

https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/others/the-norns/

[divica]

3 hours ago, Faera said:

I always felt the same but for the fact that it is more what others expect of and want for Bran, rather than what he truly wants for himself. He really isn't all that big on the idea of being trapped in a cave, losing what little of his body he has left to a tree...  and who can blame him? Getting married to a tree and essentially tricked into going to a creepy cave probably isn't high on the list of Bran's priorities.  I always felt was more important with Bran's character is his desire to regain some autonomy and control after losing his legs. Hence why I have never bought the idea that he's staying in that cave or getting wrapped up in that tree.

While you are right that it wasn t what bran wanted. It would be pretty weird if after all he did to get to bloodraven he would turn his back on him and return to the world of man and quit being a greenseer (I dont believe he can have both!). Not to mention that it should be pretty dificult getting to the Wall now...

 

The only way I can see bran leaving the cave is if BR isn t the 3 eyed raven or if he has to go to another place to better develop his gifts. Anything else would be weird to happen at this point of the story...