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Stormking902

Why is the North talked about as if its impossible to invade ?

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1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Blockade as you cannot trade via The Neck or by sea with anyone, and Night's watch is not helping you. But it is not real blockade because you only need to block White Harbor (take it) and few other coastal cities. These are the terms @Roose Boltons Pet Leech gave I believe:

I'm also agreeing with you, just pointing out that it wouldn't really hamper the North in any significant way to block trade since they don't seem to do a whole lot of it anyway. It might starve them of luxury goods from elsewhere but that's about it.

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The other point not mentioned is deep water ports.  To land that many men you need a suitable location.

So either it will be fortified like White Harbour or you boat them slowly on to some remote beach, this would take a lot of time to get man and supplies + horses??? 1 good mounted charge by one of the principle houses could end the invasion on the beach their and then.

Now that is just getting there, keeping the army fed has been covered, and pre conquest how would you defend your home turf against the other kingdoms should they attack?

 

Iron Born taking MC is an oversight by Martin, the whole point is the Neck is impregnable, but they navigate half way across it with no trouble, suggesting it would be relatively simple to cross south->north at some point between the sea and MC

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The Northmen are hard people.   As many have stated, the Northmen know their land far better than any visitor.  Do you really want to invade a place where your dead could be eaten? 

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All of this is assuming that a determined army could not take MC from the south, and I wouldn't be too sure of that. The last time anyone tried was thousands of years ago before portions of the towers were sunk in the mud. Plus, the armies that the river kings or the vale lords would have mustered would have been miniscule vs. a combined force of, say, dornish, reachmen, westermen, stormlanders, etc., and siege technology would have undoubtedly progressed over the ages.

The biggest problem would be the crannogmen, who would do significant damage to any army coming up the causeway. But if we are talking about a southern army looking to take the north from the Boltons or even Stannis, they might not be much of a factor.

So difficult? Definitely. Impossible to the point of not even worth considering? Eh, maybe not.

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Couldn't you build a giant turtle and just slowly expand the walkway at your leisure? Maybe even add a couple of side walls doesn't sound impossible to me. Also if you could get your hands on one Craggonman couldn't say Euron convince him to guide you through?

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13 hours ago, Stormking902 said:

Yes MC is impregnable from land cool, as long as an army has a strong fleet the North could never repel an invading force from at least LANDING there army in Northern territory. The Norths shores are only defended at White Harbour on the East coast, the West coast isnt defended AT ALL so a beef with say the Lannisters or the Reach and you could see them sail and land a fleet rather easily. Not to mention before AGOT the Manderlys barely had a fleet at all definitely not one that could repel a foreign invasion from Essos or even if the Vale wanted to take Whites Harbour they could. The cold weather is an advantage and disadvantage for Northern lords because they also need to eat and stay warm which could be a problem if your sieged in your castle and don't have a huge grainery like WF and dreadfort etc.......... 

I see the North and Vale always talked about as the hardest to invade but I would put Dorne, Westerlands above the North as well due to there natural boarders of mountains and desserts. Even the SL might be harder due to landing a fleet at there shores is tricky business due to rocks and storms so a lord could concentrate his forces at the boarder and fend off there foes, and if a force did land in the Stormlands you can probably cut there fleet in half due to the numbers they would lose in the attempt. 

While i agree with most of the assessments provided in here, i would like to point out the greatest southern invaders of the North ever.

House Stark.

Brandon Stark is not only said to be the son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, son of Garth the Green. But House Blackwood's accounts would seem to back this up as they claim to have ruled the wolf's wood prior to being kicked out by House Stark.

House Stark also defeats Gaven Grey Wolf. Sounds like House Stark ripped their sigil of a grey wolf on a white field from him. Like House Baratheon jacked the Durrandon's and possibly how Lannister's jacked the Casterly's. 

Then upon making base in the North, they went on to conquer every house ending with House Bolton. The last defender's of the North and the First Men...

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11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

While i agree with most of the assessments provided in here, i would like to point out the greatest southern invaders of the North ever.

House Stark.

Brandon Stark is not only said to be the son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, son of Garth the Green. But House Blackwood's accounts would seem to back this up as they claim to have ruled the wolf's wood prior to being kicked out by House Stark.

House Stark also defeats Gaven Grey Wolf. Sounds like House Stark ripped their sigil of a grey wolf on a white field from him. Like House Baratheon jacked the Durrandon's and possibly how Lannister's jacked the Casterly's. 

Then upon making base in the North, they went on to conquer every house ending with House Bolton. The last defender's of the North and the First Men...

First of all, Brandon of the Bloody Blade is rumoured to be an ancestor of Bran the Builder, not the father. So we have no idea where Bran the Builder came from prior to helping build Storm's End, the Wall and Winterfell. His family could have moved North generations before. Blackwood once ruling the wolfswood doesn't really prove anything.

House Stark didn't steal the wolf from Gaven Greywolf. Their war is called the War of the Wolves. They both had wolf sigils at that time. Far more likely Gaven was actually a Stark relative of some sort.

Furthermore, the Bolton's were not the last defenders of the First Men no matter which way you spell it. Even if Garth the Green himself went off and conquered the North, he himself was of the First Men and so were his decendents.

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12 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

First of all, Brandon of the Bloody Blade is rumoured to be an ancestor of Bran the Builder, not the father. So we have no idea where Bran the Builder came from prior to helping build Storm's End, the Wall and Winterfell. His family could have moved North generations before. Blackwood once ruling the wolfswood doesn't really prove anything.

House Stark didn't steal the wolf from Gaven Greywolf. Their war is called the War of the Wolves. They both had wolf sigils at that time. Far more likely Gaven was actually a Stark relative of some sort.

Furthermore, the Bolton's were not the last defenders of the First Men no matter which way you spell it. Even if Garth the Green himself went off and conquered the North, he himself was of the First Men and so were his decendents.

First of all, no. He is the possible father and or ancestor to Bran the Builder. Meaning he could be father, grandfather, or such. 

How can you be so sure? Where did the sigil come from? Specially since they possibly descend from Garth the Green? When did they get their house words or sigil? The Starks still come from the south 

Really? Hmm, cause i would think that depended on who Brandon of the Bloody Blades wife was, or his kids wife, or his grandkids wife, how ever you wanna spell it. You know, kinda like how Lann is either an Andal adventurer, or the son of one who hooked up with Florys the Fox or Rowan of Gold Tree. Who were first men women....

So tell me, how are you so certain?

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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5 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

First of all, no. He is the possible father and or ancestor to Bran the Builder. Meaning he could be father, grandfather, or such. 

How can you be so sure? Where did the sigil come from? Specially since they possibly descend from Garth the Green? When did they get their house words or sigil? The Starks still come from the south 

Really? Hmm, cause i would think that depended on who Brandon of the Bloody Blades wife was, or his kids wife, or his grandkids wife, how ever you wanna spell it. You know, kinda like how Lann is either an Andal adventurer, or the son of one who hooked up with Florys the Fox or Rowan of Gold Tree. Who were first men women....

So tell me, how are you so certain?

This argument is silly. EVERYONE came from the South. In fact, everyone came from Essos, originally. The Starks would have migrated to the North along with the other First Men who did so. They ALL came from the South. There is no way to know which families came at which point, during the Dawn Age. First Men were established in the North even before the Pact was signed. And the ancestors of the Starks are as likely to have been among them as the ancestors of the Boltons, Umbers or  Thenns.

We know pretty much nothing about the society of that period.

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2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

First of all, no. He is the possible father and or ancestor to Bran the Builder. Meaning he could be father, grandfather, or such. 

How can you be so sure? Where did the sigil come from? Specially since they possibly descend from Garth the Green? When did they get their house words or sigil? 

Really? Hmm, cause i would think that depended on who Brandon of the Bloody Blades wife was, or his kids wife, or his grandkids wife, how ever you wanna spell it. You know, kinda like how Lann is either an Andal adventurer, or the son of one who hooked up with Florys the Fox or Rowan of Gold Tree.

So tell me, how are you so certain?

I've never seen any source that cited Brandon of the Bloody Blade being Bran the Builder's father. Typically, when one uses the term ancestor they're referring to someone a couple of generations before. So while it is possible that the Bloody Blade is Bran the Builder's father, it's unlikely in my opinion.

I have no idea where they got their sigil from. The words are easy enough, considering that Bran the Builder was probably involved in fighting the Others. I'm not sure, I'm offering an alternative. However the war between House Stark and Gaven Greywolf was called the "War of the Wolves" meaning both sides had wolf ties.

My certainty about Garth comes from the fact that House Stark was formed a long time before the Andal's came to Westeros. Lann; if he was indeed an Andal, which I'm not convinced of; was the exception not the rule. It's significantly more likely for him to be First Men than not. It's also highly likely that most of his decendents married other First Men.

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16 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This argument is silly. EVERYONE came from the South. In fact, everyone came from Essos, originally. The Starks would have migrated to the North along with the other First Men who did so. They ALL came from the South. There is no way to know which families came at which point, during the Dawn Age. First Men were established in the North even before the Pact was signed. And the ancestors of the Starks are as likely to have been among them as the ancestors of the Boltons, Umbers or  Thenns.

We know pretty much nothing about the society of that period.

Not an argument really. And sure you can take that approach lol Yet im speaking of two different people in Westeros in the time of the Age of Heroes. 

15 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

I've never seen any source that cited Brandon of the Bloody Blade being Bran the Builder's father. Typically, when one uses the term ancestor they're referring to someone a couple of generations before. So while it is possible that the Bloody Blade is Bran the Builder's father, it's unlikely in my opinion.

I have no idea where they got their sigil from. The words are easy enough, considering that Bran the Builder was probably involved in fighting the Others. I'm not sure, I'm offering an alternative. However the war between House Stark and Gaven Greywolf was called the "War of the Wolves" meaning both sides had wolf ties.

My certainty about Garth comes from the fact that House Stark was formed a long time before the Andal's came to Westeros. Lann; if he was indeed an Andal, which I'm not convinced of; was the exception not the rule. It's significantly more likely for him to be First Men than not. It's also highly likely that most of his decendents married other First Men.

No these peoples do not have to be the Andals, they could merely have been ancestors to the Andals. The thing about Lann is not proof of Andals, it is proof of a 2nd culture in Westeros aside from that of the First Men. Something pretty commonly excepted, even by the Maesters who question where the Hightowers and Iron Born come from. Brandon Stark can literally be translated as Brave One of the Beacon Hill, or Last Hero of the Hightower. 

Uthor Hightower, Hugor of the Hill, Huzhor Amai and Azor Ahai all the same guy. Uthor, Hugor, Huzhor, Azor are all Brandon Stark. Who is the Bloodstone Emperor. Son of the Opal Emperor, Brandon of the Bloody Blade, younger brother to Garth Gardener the Pearl Emperor, who is first born son of The God on Earth, Garth the Green. 

But, that's just how i read the clues.

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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Consider that if Garth Greenhand was one of the original band of First Men migrants who crossed the Arm of Dorne, there could have been as much as 4000 years between him and Brandon the Builder, who lived at the time of the Long Night.

These legends are garbled fantasies, spun together without any basis in fact. Suggestions that Bran the Builder was as close as the great grandson of Garth Greenhand or something similar are almost certainly bogus.

And then you have references to the First King of the first Men being buried at Barrow Hill. A nameless person that just demonstrates that we actually know nothing about what really transpired in those first millennia of the First Men arrival in Westeros. To try and build a credible origin tale based on the tall  tales orally transmitted over thousands of years before the Andals arrived with writing and written histories is utterly foolish, in my view.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Consider that if Garth Greenhand was one of the original band of First Men migrants who crossed the Arm of Dorne, there could have been as much as 4000 years between him and Brandon the Builder, who lived at the time of the Long Night.

These legends are garbled fantasies, spun together without any basis in fact. Suggestions that Bran the Builder was as close as the great grandson of Garth Greenhand or something similar are almost certainly bogus.

And then you have references to the First King of the first Men being buried at Barrow Hill. A nameless person that just demonstrates that we actually know nothing about what really transpired in those first millennia of the First Men arrival in Westeros. To try and build a credible origin tale based on the tall  tales orally transmitted over thousands of years before the Andals arrived with writing and written histories is utterly foolish, in my view.

Garth the Green is likely the God on Earth who ruled for 10,000 years by accounts. And we know of other people closer to current history such as Melisandre who has extended her life or Bloodraven. So it's definitely possible. 

And the rest of that is merely your opinion. There are more than enough clues to suggest other wise. 

And just cause you can't connect the dots doesn't make others foolish, that just makes you ignorant for saying that. The First King that is rumored to be Garth the Green who is likely buried in that Barrow. Who likely ruled over lesser men than he was, as you know, most rulers claimed to be gods or descended from gods. But thats just my opinion, and i love tin foil, chewing on it, drooling over these theories, so. Run with what ever you got hahah just putting it out there :)

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9 hours ago, averde said:

It’s cold. 

Read about Napoleon and Russia. 

Or Charles XII and Russia, or Nazis and Russia... Invading Russia is generally considered a terrible idea. :P

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16 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

While i agree with most of the assessments provided in here, i would like to point out the greatest southern invaders of the North ever.

House Stark.

Brandon Stark is not only said to be the son of Brandon of the Bloody Blade, son of Garth the Green. But House Blackwood's accounts would seem to back this up as they claim to have ruled the wolf's wood prior to being kicked out by House Stark.

House Stark also defeats Gaven Grey Wolf. Sounds like House Stark ripped their sigil of a grey wolf on a white field from him. Like House Baratheon jacked the Durrandon's and possibly how Lannister's jacked the Casterly's. 

Then upon making base in the North, they went on to conquer every house ending with House Bolton. The last defender's of the North and the First Men...

Here's an idea; Wolfswood was named Wolfswood only after Starks, the house with the wolf sigil, took it over and kicked Blackwoods, the house with "wood" in it and living in a forest, out. Before this, Wolfswood was probably named, Blackwood. Gaven grey wolf means nothing with our limited knowledge. It could very well be some random nick name given to him like Euron Crow's Eye.

On topic; Even before the North was united, Northman responded to outside invaders together; Barrow Kings, Kings ıf Winter, Red Kings, they have all aided Marsh Kings against armies marching up the causeway.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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16 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

While i agree with most of the assessments provided in here, i would like to point out the greatest southern invaders of the North ever.

House Stark.

Only that it took them hundreds of years to take it and control it completely. There has also been a discussion that North couldn't be ruled by a same family for 8000 years or couldn't be ruled for longer periods of time as a whole because of lack of logistics.

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On 12/12/2017 at 11:47 AM, elder brother jonothor dar said:

ron Born taking MC is an oversight by Martin, the whole point is the Neck is impregnable, but they navigate half way across it with no trouble, suggesting it would be relatively simple to cross south->north at some point between the sea and MC

Moat Cailin is considered impregnable from a force coming from the South.  It's highly vulnerable from the North.

And yes, the whole point of the thread is that the North is extremely vulnerable along the coast.  Normally it isn't a problem, because decentralized feudal societies cannot equip, transport, and especially supply enough men to land and take the North.  But the ironborn, who effectively live at sea, can easily raid and hold small chokepoints.  As we see, they are completely incapable of holding anything in the North.

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On 13/12/2017 at 5:02 AM, averde said:

Read about Napoleon and Russia. 

Exactly, the idea is Russia.

Also, like Russia, of course it can be invaded. The point is, it can't be kept occupied, at least not with the resources that the plausible invaders can spare.

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More interesting to me, is the flip side of this discussion. While Moat Cailin is pretty much unassailable by land from the south, the Riverlands are open for assault from the North. While the World of Ice and Fire tells us that the Riverlands have suffered more invasions and wars than any other region, it is silent on whether any of those invasions came from the North.

Surely Robb is not the first King in the North in history who thought of carving a piece of the lush Riverlands off for himself? The Blackwoods headed south and took a part of the Riverlands for themselves. Was there ever a Stark King who took a chunk of the Riverlands and held onto it for a generation or two, before being ejected by the locals? I guess we will never know.

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