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Why is the North talked about as if its impossible to invade ?

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

I don't know if that's fair. The Iron Born essentially abandoned the North when the Kingsmoot was called. Deepwood Motte was held by Asha and her men, who had fled from Euron's rule, and Moat Cailin was held by a skeleton garrison. Even then, despite the limited numbers, lack of supplies and sickness caused from poison, they were still able to hold off three Northern attacks before Ramsay sent Theon in to negotiate a surrender.

If they could hold out with so little men then you've got to think that a full garrison, who were well supplied, could've held out for much much longer.

Doesn't matter; Anyone on a wall can fend off an attack against greater numbers. The garrison surrendered because they lacked supplies, even if they weren't abandoned they would still lose; Ironborn aren't able to feed even the islands with farming, their soil is poor. They are heavily reliant on fishing to sustain themselves and to be able to fish they need those boats they sent off to war.

Ironborn and Northman are pretty much opposites of each other in this; Northman raising armies saves them from starvation especially during winter but for Ironborn raising armies leads them to starvation.

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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On 30.4.2018 at 1:32 AM, Clegane'sPup said:

To few men and no proper supply line kinda makes taking the northern lands difficult. Balon's predictions without a quote are nada.

Don't you know the quote I'm talking about? Balon's plans:

Quote

I mean for you to strike the first blow, Theon. You shall take eight longships north— [...] You are to harry the Stony Shore, raiding the fishing villages and sinking any ships you chance to meet. It may be that you will draw some of the northern lords out from behind their stone walls. Aeron will accompany you, and Dagmer Cleftjaw.

Asha my daughter you shall take thirty longships of picked men round Sea Dragon Point. Land upon the tidal flats north of Deepwood Motte. March quickly, and the castle may fall before they even know you are upon them.

Victarion, the main thrust shall fall to you. When my sons have struck their blows, Winterfell must respond. You should meet small opposition as you sail up Saltspear and the Fever River. At the headwaters, you will be less than twenty miles from Moat Cailin. The Neck is the key to the kingdom. Already we command the western seas. Once we hold Moat Cailin, the pup will not be able to win back to the north . . . and if he is fool enough to try, his enemies will seal the south end of the causeway behind him, and Robb the boy will find himself caught like a rat in a bottle.

The lords are gone south with the pup. Those who remained behind are the cravens, old men, and green boys. They will yield or fall, one by one. Winterfell may defy us for a year, but what of it? The rest shall be ours, forest and field and hall, and we shall make the folk our thralls and salt wives.

I don't think Balon could have taken the entire North that way - but the parts he and his Ironborn had taken by then he might have been able to keep.

On 30.4.2018 at 1:32 AM, Clegane'sPup said:

In this story the head of the enemy has not been cut off. The Houses are seeming to me to be gathering.

Sure, they will free the North again, etc. But that's not the point. The point is whether the Ironborn - or an even more powerful naval power - could take it. And I think they could.

On 30.4.2018 at 6:46 PM, Tagganaro said:

Yes, you definitely get the sense of the North as being comparable to Russia- too large a landmass, too extreme weather, not enough of a reward to make invading worthwhile, or maybe even possible in Westerosi terms.  Agreed with @Lord Varys above that if you could take out the Starks, the North becomes much more vulnerable to invasion, but I don't think it changes the general calculus that says actually holding the North after invasion would not make sense and would be close to impossible.

Guys, we have to differentiate between conquering and occupying. This is a medieval setting. You conquer a land by defeating the kings and lords in charge of the land, not by occupying it with a vast standing military force. That kind of thing is very rarely done. The Targaryens took the North - and the other kingdoms, too - by defeating their armies in battle and accepting their surrender. They did not send vast armies to occupy any village, town, garrison, or castle.

The only place in Westeros where the smallfolk cares to an important degree as to who rules them is Dorne (there were also some Northmen who were unhappy with the Targaryen conquest, but they were a minority and could not bring the nobility or people to rebel against Torrhen Stark and/or Aegon the Conqueror).

On 30.4.2018 at 6:46 PM, Tagganaro said:

You sort of see this play out with the Ironborn, although admittedly they are beyond weak compared to a hypothetical occupying force that would actually have a chance to hold the North.  Nevertheless, you still see the effort expended to essentially gain some pinecones (paraphrasing Asha).

Some occupying seems to have done by the Durrandon and Ironborn conquest of the Riverlands, but there is no indication that Harwyn, Halleck, and Harren had to move their entire population in arms to the Riverlands to keep them in line, vice versa, while there were Durrandon garrisons in the Riverlands during their rule there, those seem to have been rather small.

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The North is huge and certain parts are remote, not forgetting the cold, especially now that winter is coming. An enemy army would suffer heavy losses due to the climate and lack of supplies. Once Moat Cailin is manned, they can't invade by land, when the come by sea, okay, they can come ashore, but they will have a hard time in the countryside. Most outsiders don't know the North, look at Stannis, he is having a hard time to approach Winterfell.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Don't you know the quote I'm talking about? Balon's plans:

My memory often fails me. There is to much info to keep up with in the story. I thank your for providing the quote. :thumbsup:

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Balon could have taken the entire North that way - but the parts he and his Ironborn had taken by then he might have been able to keep.

What I was speaking about was in CoK after Asha made her way to WF. The chapter gives a interesting glance into the Ironborn way.

A Clash of Kings - Theon V    There, before the ashes of a dead fire, he blurted, "Dagmer's lost the fight at Torrhen's Square—     "The old castellan broke his shield wall, yes," Asha said calmly. "What did you expect? This Ser Rodrik knows the land intimately, as the Cleftjaw does not, and many of the northmen were mounted. The ironborn lack the discipline to stand a charge of armored horse. Dagmer lives, be grateful for that much. He's leading the survivors back toward the Stony Shore."

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, they will free the North again, etc. But that's not the point. The point is whether the Ironborn - or an even more powerful naval power - could take it. And I think they could.

I'm going to say no, the Ironborn cannot take and conquer the North, The IT fleet was destroyed.at Blackwater. Someone absconded with the new IT ships. Vic took most of the Iron Fleet in hopes of reaching Dany. What Euron is up to is beyond me.

You know more about the back story of ASOIAF than I do. Has the north lands been invaded and successfully conquered in this saga? I seem to remember that some Stark bent a knee to Targs ---- because dragons. :cheers:

 

 

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think Balon could have taken the entire North that way - but the parts he and his Ironborn had taken by then he might have been able to keep.

This is highly debatable.  Even in open battle, the ironborn admit they are way outmatched by the North, not least because the ironborn have no heavy cavalry (or really, any).  Certainly not on the mainland.

"The old castellan broke his shield wall, yes," Asha said calmly. "What did you expect? This Ser Rodrik knows the land intimately, as the Cleftjaw does not, and many of the northmen were mounted. The ironborn lack the discipline to stand a charge of armored horse. Dagmer lives, be grateful for that much. He's leading the survivors back toward the Stony Shore."

The whole reason Balon is a fool is because he can never hope to conquer the North.  What he's doing is raiding; conquest implies the ability to impose a permanent settlement on what you conquer, which Balon explicitly cannot do.  It's not even feasible for him to hold the castles near the coast.  Even places near the coast are not secure, as we see with Asha later on.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, they will free the North again, etc. But that's not the point. The point is whether the Ironborn - or an even more powerful naval power - could take it. And I think they could.

Almost impossible.  Look, the entire political class of the North (and the other kingdoms) has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, as with any feudal aristocracy, not least because they're all interrelated.  Could Braavos land a fleet, and maybe even an army?  Sure.  But sieges are extraordinarily difficult to maintain with conventional lines of supply, let alone the idea of shipping fodder and food for tens of thousands of men and animals across the Narrow Sea (or the Bite, if you prefer a different antagonist like the Vale).  It's the very size of the North that makes it impossible to hold by an outsider - how do you support an conquering garrison?  You need to hold a huge minority of the North to hope to be able to hold off the remaining majority.  Which means more men, which means more expense, and for what?  Look at the Worthless War.  Here is a (relatively) centralized feudal power, the Arryns, waging a generations-long war against the North.  They take White Harbor(/the Wolf's Den) many times, burn it, occupy it, etc, but can never hold it.  And they're close, and have many opportunities, and eventually the kind of long-term commitment to the war to put the resources in, hypothetically.

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1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I'm going to say no, the Ironborn cannot take and conquer the North, The IT fleet was destroyed.at Blackwater. Someone absconded with the new IT ships. Vic took most of the Iron Fleet in hopes of reaching Dany. What Euron is up to is beyond me.

Again, I'm not saying Balon could have taken and kept the entire North. That is, after all, a very large place. But with Robb - and the bulk of the North's strength stuck in the south, unable to return, he certainly could have continued his conquests up there without anybody being able to hinder him in an effective way.

Balon's plan apparently was to create bases in the North and then encroach farther and farther into the land. It would have taken time, and I'm sure they wouldn't have been successful everywhere, but they could have kept what they gained - they could even have gotten around to convince local lords to bend the knee, etc. if they made good and decent offers (not sure if Balon could do that, though).

1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said:

You know more about the back story of ASOIAF than I do. Has the north lands been invaded and successfully conquered in this saga? I seem to remember that some Stark bent a knee to Targs ---- because dragons. :cheers:

No, but as I'm trying to say - it was most likely never done because the North wasn't worth it. The smart Andals, for instance, targeted the fertile regions of Westeros. The fellows attacking the North weren't all that bright, if you ask me, and there is no indication that anyone ever made a proper attempt to actually conquer the entire North. There may have been people trying cut a chunk out of the North - the mouth of the White Knife, Cape Kraken (which seems to be as much a part of the North as it is of the Iron Islands), the entire eastern coast which was once ruled by the Ironborn, etc.

But the Targaryen conquest - as well as the earlier Stark conquest of the North - is actually a good sign how this conquest stuff works. You fight against a king or lord, win, and then that guy (or those relatives you allow to live) bend the knee and become your men. That's how it goes. That's how Aegon conquered the North, basically, and that's also how the Starks conquered the North.

1 hour ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

The North is huge and certain parts are remote, not forgetting the cold, especially now that winter is coming. An enemy army would suffer heavy losses due to the climate and lack of supplies. Once Moat Cailin is manned, they can't invade by land, when the come by sea, okay, they can come ashore, but they will have a hard time in the countryside. Most outsiders don't know the North, look at Stannis, he is having a hard time to approach Winterfell.

Fighting a campaign in the North in autumn/winter is madness, sure. But you don't have to do that. You can war in spring and summer. And if you return to warmer lands in autumn and destroy a lot of the provisions of the Northmen before you leave, then those who survive the winter are likely more inclined the next time you come to attack them...

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1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

This is highly debatable.  Even in open battle, the ironborn admit they are way outmatched by the North, not least because the ironborn have no heavy cavalry (or really, any).  Certainly not on the mainland.

"The old castellan broke his shield wall, yes," Asha said calmly. "What did you expect? This Ser Rodrik knows the land intimately, as the Cleftjaw does not, and many of the northmen were mounted. The ironborn lack the discipline to stand a charge of armored horse. Dagmer lives, be grateful for that much. He's leading the survivors back toward the Stony Shore."

 

You have to keep in mind that attacking Torrhen's Square was *not* part of Balon's original plan, nor did Dagmer/Theon have enough men for such an enterprise. The whole thing was planned as a diversion and worked as such. Theon was the one not thinking ahead, not Balon.

And the fact that Dagmer did return and finally take Torrhen's Square - and is still holding it - puts things into perspective here.

Even a pretty small Ironborn force is stronger that what's left at Torrhen's Square (at least after Ser Rodrik took Tallhart men with him back to Winterfell to try to retake it from Theon).

But the bulk of the Ironborn strength is with Asha and Victarion, not with Theon and Dagmer. Once Robb had been dealt with - either by his enemies in the south or by Victarion on his futile attempts to return back home (which only had a chance of success because the Kingsmoot brought Victarion and the bulk of his strength back to the Iron Islands) - Balon would have been free to use those men to continue his conquest of the North.

And that seems to have been his plan considering that he thought Winterfell might be able to resist them for, perhaps, a year.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

The whole reason Balon is a fool is because he can never hope to conquer the North.  What he's doing is raiding; conquest implies the ability to impose a permanent settlement on what you conquer, which Balon explicitly cannot do.  It's not even feasible for him to hold the castles near the coast.  Even places near the coast are not secure, as we see with Asha later on.

The Ironborn did exactly that kind of thing in the past, most recently when Harwyn Hardhand conquered the Riverlands and his son and grandson did hold them and exploit them like cattle.

This kind of thing is doable in principle - but again, I don't think Balon wanted the entire North. He just wanted to destroy the Starks and conquer as much land as he could hold up there.

Note that it actually seems that living in the North - even the pretty northern North like Sea Dragon Point - would actually better the lives of many of the Ironborn. The Iron Islands are a very bad place to live, possibly the worst place to live in Westeros. Things like that could certainly motivate men Balon granted lands and titles at the northern shores to settle there and defend their new lands. Just like Euron made new lords on the Shields (although he doesn't care whether those morons keep or lose those islands).

And there clearly would come no strong army to drive them back into the sea. Not with the bulk of the Northern strength lost down in the south and no central authority in the North. 

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Almost impossible.  Look, the entire political class of the North (and the other kingdoms) has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, as with any feudal aristocracy, not least because they're all interrelated.  Could Braavos land a fleet, and maybe even an army?  Sure.  But sieges are extraordinarily difficult to maintain with conventional lines of supply, let alone the idea of shipping fodder and food for tens of thousands of men and animals across the Narrow Sea (or the Bite, if you prefer a different antagonist like the Vale).  It's the very size of the North that makes it impossible to hold by an outsider - how do you support an conquering garrison?  You need to hold a huge minority of the North to hope to be able to hold off the remaining majority.  Which means more men, which means more expense, and for what?  Look at the Worthless War.  Here is a (relatively) centralized feudal power, the Arryns, waging a generations-long war against the North.  They take White Harbor(/the Wolf's Den) many times, burn it, occupy it, etc, but can never hold it.  And they're close, and have many opportunities, and eventually the kind of long-term commitment to the war to put the resources in, hypothetically.

Not sure what you are talking about. Did I say that this naval power couldn't be the Gardener kingdom, say, or the Vale or the West? No. It could be any of them - or a united southern Andal kingdom or perhaps even a Targaryen Realm without the North. All they would need would be a sufficiently strong naval force.

And as I said already in the previous post - the whole feudal thing should actually help with conquering a kingdom. Just defeat the other king and make him or his heir your vassal - or kill the entire line and raise some ambitious guy up who has now suck up to you (hello there, Edmyn Tully and Harlan Tyrell) - and the subjects of that king will follow suit. That's how the Durrandons conquered the Riverlands, and how Queen Rhaenys and Orys Baratheon conquered the Stormlands.

You also have to offer good terms, of course, and you should be a just new overlord, not make too many reforms, offend the wrong people on a deep level, etc.

As to the practicalities of an invasion, an army would live to a good deal off the land. If you invade in the right season - and the weather is not that bad - you should be able to find some food in the North. But - sure, an invasion corridor along the White Knife, enabling you to bring in food and provisions and reinforcements via ship would be preferable. 

As to the Worthless War - I actually think the name gives it away. This war was worthless because those morons fought over some worthless islands. There were also campaigns of the Starks on the Fingers/in the Vale and for the Arryns in the North, but neither of these great powers seems to have really tried to conquer the other kingdom and make it part of their domains. At times the more ambitions and war-hungry Arryn and Stark kings might have dreamed to cutting out a chunk of land out of the other kingdom, but there is no indication that vast dreams of conquest were part of those wars.

And, sure, some preliminary peace treaties - before the fighting resumed again - may have seen the Arryns ceding (parts of) the Fingers to the Starks, or the Starks giving up land along the coast of the Bite to the Arryns. Borders are fluid, after all.

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The Ironborn have conquered parts of the North's West coast many, many times over the millenia. And almost certainly many of these invasions happened precisely when the Starks' attention was focused elsewhere, just like in Robb's case. Like for example in the case of arguably the greatest Stark King ever, Theon the Hungry Wolf. While he was off warring in Andalos, the Sisters and against the Vale, the Ironborn conquered large parts of his western shores.

This happened repeatedly over the course of history. Nevertheless, none of these conquests stood the test of time. In all cases the Starks evicted the Ironborn in the end. There is no rational reason whatsoever to think that Balon's attempt would have ended any differently.

Fact is, the North can raise probably twice the force that the Iron Isles can, they know the land, they have local peasant support and they hate the Ironborn.

So no, the Ironborn cannot conquer even part of the North permanently.

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2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The Ironborn have conquered parts of the North's West coast many, many times over the millenia. And almost certainly many of these invasions happened precisely when the Starks' attention was focused elsewhere, just like in Robb's case. Like for example in the case of arguably the greatest Stark King ever, Theon the Hungry Wolf. While he was off warring in Andalos, the Sisters and against the Vale, the Ironborn conquered large parts of his western shores.

Man, you do know that Theon Stark is a legendary figure who is made larger than life by the singers and story-tellers who happen to be rather relevant sources on him - just as they are on many of the ancient figures. @Ran has told us that repeatedly.

The entire western coast of Westeros - from the Arbor to Bear Island - was controlled by the Ironborn for centuries. And we have no idea how far inland their control went, how many lords and kings paid tribute and did homage to the Ironborn kings.

In that sense, the west coast of the North wasn't part 'the North' as such for centuries, not of the petty kings in the North, and not of the domains of the Kings of Winter.

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

This happened repeatedly over the course of history. Nevertheless, none of these conquests stood the test of time. In all cases the Starks evicted the Ironborn in the end. There is no rational reason whatsoever to think that Balon's attempt would have ended any differently.

Sure there is. Lands can be conquered. That it didn't work in the past doesn't mean it can't in the future. Else people would not longer conduct any wars, no?

If the Starks were indeed extinct in the male line - as people right now believe they are - this would be a good first step in making the North ripe for permanent conquest and taking it over piece by piece.

If we had such a scenario as we do have it right now back before the Targaryen Conquest, the North would likely disintegrate into petty kingdoms again.

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Posted (edited)

Can we at least get a general consensus that in a settled time (let’s say 288 ac, one year prior to Balons rebellion) that no single region could pose a substantial threat to the North beyond small raids. I’m also not sure if anyone metioned whatever  Dunk says in I think the mystery knight. that the iron born are raiding the north, so maybe we will see some first hand in 10-15 years 

Edited by Michael Stark thenewwolf
Wrong year

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Most of the talk about the North being impossible to invade tends to come from Northerners.

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5 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Most of the talk about the North being impossible to invade tends to come from Northerners.

Um, I dunna know about dat. I haven't bought nor read the W book.  I remember a Stark bent the the knee to a Targ. Other than that I do not recall any successful invaders. You are are going to have to help me out with an army's marching through the Neck.  Thanks.

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44 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Um, I dunna know about dat. I haven't bought nor read the W book.  I remember a Stark bent the the knee to a Targ. Other than that I do not recall any successful invaders. You are are going to have to help me out with an army's marching through the Neck.  Thanks.

You should rectify that mistake, you know.

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Lets say the Reach and the Westerlands decide to naval invade the west coast of the North which is already desolated due to independent ironborn raids. You get around 250-300 ships from these 2 southron kingdoms and they land on the beaches of normand.. I mean stony shore, sea dragon point, rills, barrowlands etc. Now lets imagine this southern navy can carry around 60k reachman and westerlander soldiers (200 men per ship). Lets not forget landing such a large force will take along time and obviously some local lord will definetly hear of this southern force or maybe Winterfell already knows due to diplomacy. Due to the time it would take this southern army to land, Winterfell can send even a petty cavalry force to disrupt this invasion (it would succeed cuz soldiers are busy carrying supplies moving stuff yknow what I mean).

Lets say this southron army successfully lands all their men in the beaches how will they feed themselves, cuz this aint the Ironborn who send some couple thousand reavers to hold castles like deepwood motte n torrhen square. The southerners would have to send most of their ships to supply runs and this would take them possibly 2-3 weeks per trip, which means this southern army will have to live without these supplies for almost 2 months in the cold and harsh North whilst they are also being harassed by Northman and also lets not forget the local peasants that have never seen a soldier in shining armor in their lives. All the North has to do is harass this army whilst they march on any castle they want, and lets not forget their stark king will be safe and sound in Winterfell with all his heirs and princes which is located exactly in the centre of the North.

The full might of the North is 45k (the weak included), and at the end of the day a local peasant will be more likely to enlist in the local lords army when a foreign army full of infidels is invading their lands, rather than when it is a petty war between two neighbouring Houses. 

 

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55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You should rectify that mistake, you know.

I have been upfront and forthright. Even asked for information. Perhaps you can/will shed some light on the mistake. Point it out and I will gladly rectify the mistake. Thanks.

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15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I have been upfront and forthright. Even asked for information. Perhaps you can/will shed some light on the mistake. Point it out and I will gladly rectify the mistake. Thanks.

Man, I was trying to make a joke. I meant you should rectify your mistake and read TWoIaF because it is worth it ;-).

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17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Man, I was trying to make a joke. I meant you should rectify your mistake and read TWoIaF because it is worth it ;-).

Argh, I didn’t catch the suggestion that I should read the W book. I thought you were bickering about ASOIAF statements I made. :blush:

When I was a newbee reader of ASOIAF I went to the library. I checked out the books (anthologies) that the various (Varys) short stories were combined into.  For me, the only interesting ones were the Dunk & Egg tales. The reason being, those stories shed some light on the ASOIAF main books/novels/saga.

I get it. I went through it with my children. They had to have the newest Star Wars action figure. The older son had a meltdown because the younger brother bit the feet off Boba Fett.

I’m not that into martin’s Targ history. Some people are. Therefore, I am glad that martin is letting loose of his dust collecting stuff.

Me, I ain’t buy nothing until martin lets loose of WoW or a Dunk & Egg or the Grill volume two. :cheers:

 

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Posted (edited)

 the reason the ironborn didnt take the north  and theres no war there is balons invasion gets put on the backburner by grmm and robb dies (The secret passes through the swamps robb plans to take wernt widely known to anyone even north lords)

The bulk of the full ironborn force sits and twiddles its thumbs 

Edited by hodorisfaclessman

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3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I’m not that into martin’s Targ history. Some people are. Therefore, I am glad that martin is letting loose of his dust collecting stuff.

Me, I ain’t buy nothing until martin lets loose of WoW or a Dunk & Egg or the Grill volume two. :cheers:

Man, that's not a Targaryen history book. It is book of the history of Westeros - of the distant past, the era of the Seven Kingdoms when they were still independent, the Targaryen kings, and a pretty detailed description of the rest of the known world.

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Posted (edited)

The thread is about invaders taking the north.

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Man, that's not a Targaryen history book. It is book of the history of Westeros - of the distant past, the era of the Seven Kingdoms when they were still independent, the Targaryen kings, and a pretty detailed description of the rest of the known world.

Until the side material catches up with the ASOIAF I am not spending my $. My dollar is not going to harm martin.

Since you are well versed in the history of Westeros ---- have the north lands been successfully invaded and conquered? Third time I have typed this ----- I seem to remember some  Stark bent a knee to Targ ---- because dragons.

Edited by Clegane'sPup

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