The lie of a love story

[lAPPYc]

Why did Rhaegar Targaryen take Lyanna Stark to the Tower of Joy? He was the Prince of Dragonstone.There was the Red Keep. Assuming that he knew about the grand plans and alliances of Rickard Stark, and that he was pressed by the necessity to impregnate Lyanna Stark to save the world, and assuming that she was in love with him, he would have had a much better future if he'd taken Lyanna to either Dragonstone or the Red Keep, or anywhere else, and just contacted Rickard Stark and traded Dorne for the price of the North, the Riverlands, and the maybe even the Vale once Hoster Tully marries Lysa to Jon Arryn(now that Jaime had taken the white). Dorne might have stewed, and of course, the Stormlord would have been angry. But this is a course that would have been worth trying. And if he thought Rickard Stark might prove reluctant to break his vow to the lecherous teenage orphaned lord of Storm's End who has never yet proved his mettle like Rhaegar has for the man his daughter actually loves, all he had to do was show him her swollen belly once he'd impregnated her, and now the only way for her father to save her honor would be for him to accept this marriage between his daughter and the Crown Prince who won the greatest tourney of them all.(Oh, what a hard choice)

He didn't try any of this though, and the only explanation I can come up with is that Lyanna refused to marry him.

Oh, she might have loved him. We know she didn't approve of the way Robert chased skirts, (I can't remember if she complained about his drinking, she might have), and we know she was willful and wild. But the fact that Rickard Stark calls it the 'wolf blood' tells us that she wasn't the first in the long ancient line of the Starks to have had this blood(Gee, what are the chances of that happening?). And yet the Starks are reputed to be honorable than most. That means that many, if not most, of their 'wolf blooded' children calmed their blood and went the honorable way(Gee, what are the chances of a lord's daughter adhering to the proud history of her house and making true on her promises?)

I am not saying that Lyanna Stark was the strongest of the people. It takes courage to put aside our own feelings and marry the man you hate for the good for your kingdom. And not all people are that strong. But had she consented to Rhaegar, he wouldn't have needed to hide her like he did. If it had been consensual, he'd have returned to the Red Keep once he heard of Brandon's arrest and of the fact that a summons has been sent to Rickard Stark. The summons went the north and then the lord of Winterfell made the long journey to the south, even by ship that's a lot of time(He'd have to journey to White Harbor) for Rhaegar to learn of the developments with the family of the woman whose love he meant to keep right there in the Tower of Joy.

So I do think that Lyanna was a strong woman who could put the needs of her kingdom before her own feelings. Maybe she had an affair with Rhaegar when he/or friends captured the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and maybe that's what prompted the Dragon Prince to recognize her as his true love/or meant to be and into giving her the crown of Love and Beauty.(I don't like to assume that he fell in love with her either. He was already being an asshole to Elia, he didn't need to actually fall for another woman too. He'd be a much better person if he did all this only for the kingdoms, and no f****ing love was involved). But when he offered her the chance to marry him, I think that for Lyanna, the good of her kingdoms was what her father told her. She is a sixteen-year-old girl and we have never been led to believe she knew enough about politics to recognize Rhaegar as a better match in her father's eyes. Rhaegar might have tried to convince by making the arguments mentioned above, but maybe he failed(How often do girls believe the wild tales men tell them when they know the man only wants to get in their pants? Very very few times, I hope).

All I know is that Rhaegar took pains to hide her till she was heavy with child. Dragonstone would be essentially a Dornish base at the moment what with Elia the homemaker, and who knows what a vengeful venomous person might do, so Rhaegar couldn't bring Lyanna there even if she had consented. But if she had consented, the Red Keep, the center of the Kingdom was the best place to plan his next alliances. I doubt Aerys would have been that much of a problem. Pycelle writes to the citadel that the 'Red Keep' was divided and that it reminded him of the court in the times of the Dance. So we know that Rhaegar had friends there. Even if he hadn't though, Aerys wouldn't have harmed him or Lyanna. For all he is thinking, Rhaegar is just following his little head. And if he thinks along the lines of 'Rhaegar just insulted Storm's End and the North', well, that's just the regular politics for the Red Keep, nothing to fear for your life, or that of your bastard's, or of that of the girl's that is making you look dishonorable in the eyes of the kingdom itching to crown you.

No, Rhaegar didn't bring her to the Red Keep because he was afraid Lyanna might find a helper to spirit her from the crowded Keep. That's regular politics also, especially if Lyanna was held against her will, and that's what he was afraid of. I want the Song of Ice and Fire be a saga of hard choices, and not a sappy love story that D&D have given to us.

[theMADdestScientist_]

12 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

I want the Song of Ice and Fire be a saga of hard choices, and not a sappy love story that D&D have given to us.

What sappy love story are you talking about? Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, he abandoned everything for her, and her family did not like it one bit. Rickard Stark ended up killed because of Brandon's stupidity, Rhaegar was forced to fight against the remaining Starks who were heavily allied with Robert Baratheon who would certainly kill his and Lyanna's child, and in the end the Starks succeeded in killing Rhaegar. Now Lyanna finds herself giving birth alone in the middle of nowhere while Robert rewards the Lannisters and Gregor Clegane for raping and butchering Elia Martell and her children, and what's worse, Lyanna knows she's gonna die. She now has no choice but to beg Ned(Robert's best friend) to protect her son.

What sappy love story are you talking about? have you been reading the same story i did? if you did, i would advise you to pay more attention to the details. Everything is tragic enough already.

 

12 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

But had she consented to Rhaegar, he wouldn't have needed to hide her like he did. If it had been consensual, he'd have returned to the Red Keep once he heard of Brandon's arrest

She consented pal, until the very end. Ned remembers her state when she died, she was still holding rose petals, that should tell you something.

And yes, Rhaegar and Lyanna needed to hide, Aerys was unstable, and the Starks would certainly try to put an end to their romance. As for him returning when he heard of Brandon's arrest, that is not possible, because he never heard anything, he was in the middle of nowhere. It took Gerold Hightower to find Rhaegar in the end, no one else was able to find him, because he was in a secluded location.

There is no way of knowing what is happening in Westeros if you're in the Tower of Joy, unless someone finds you and tells you what is happening, and by the time Gerold Hightower found Rhaegar, Rickard and Brandon were long dead.

[lAPPYc]

29 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

and the Starks would certainly try to put an end to their romance.

Aerys may be unstable, but the Stark's WON'T try to put an end to their romance. That was the whole point I was trying to make. Rickard Stark wanted power, and what is more power than having the heir to the crown as his son-in-law?

 

32 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

because he never heard anything

That's my problem. If she'd consented, he could have contacted her father, and then he wouldn't have needed to hide like this. That's the entire point I was trying to make.

 

33 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

3 hours ago, lAPPYc said:

I want the Song of Ice and Fire be a saga of hard choices, and not a sappy love story that D&D have given to us.

What sappy love story are you talking about? Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, he abandoned everything for her, and her family did not like it one bit. Rickard Stark ended up killed because of Brandon's stupidity, Rhaegar was forced to fight against the remaining Starks who were heavily allied with Robert Baratheon who would certainly kill his and Lyanna's child, and in the end the Starks succeeded in killing Rhaegar. Now Lyanna finds herself giving birth alone in the middle of nowhere while Robert rewards the Lannisters and Gregor Clegane for raping and butchering Elia Martell and her children, and what's worse, Lyanna knows she's gonna die. She now has no choice but to beg Ned(Robert's best friend) to protect her son.

What sappy love story are you talking about? have you been reading the same story i did? if you did, i would advise you to pay more attention to the details. Everything is tragic enough already.

Yes, focus on the one point that has no bearing on all the reasons I've presented. None of the things you've mentioned above tell me why Rhaegar didn't contact Rickard Stark.

 

34 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

she was still holding rose petals,

I can defend myself by saying Rhaegar gave them to her because he knew she liked blue roses and that they might offer her some small amount of comfort from the agony of carrying a bastard borne of rape and having her whole life destroyed, but I know you will not want to see it.

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

On 12/13/2017 at 5:40 AM, lAPPYc said:

Aerys may be unstable, but the Stark's WON'T try to put an end to their romance. That was the whole point I was trying to make. Rickard Stark wanted power, and what is more power than having the heir to the crown as his son-in-law?

 

That's my problem. If she'd consented, he could have contacted her father, and then he wouldn't have needed to hide like this. That's the entire point I was trying to make.

 

Yes, focus on the one point that has no bearing on all the reasons I've presented. None of the things you've mentioned above tell me why Rhaegar didn't contact Rickard Stark.

 

I can defend myself by saying Rhaegar gave them to her because he knew she liked blue roses and that they might offer her some small amount of comfort from the agony of carrying a bastard borne of rape and having her whole life destroyed, but I know you will not want to see it.

Except George makes it clear that they would have for the simple fact that Rickard had already betrothed her to Robert. Clearly Rickard cared more about loyalty and already based friendships and relationships, wanting to keep the Stark & Baratheon & Arryn relationship in tact. And maybe he already felt he was gaining more power because the Baratheons had Targaryen blood, but I don't believe they were ever close to Aerys or that generation of Targaryens.

Uhmmm, Lyanna didn't go to her father but she spilled her heart to Ned often, And  she made it known she wasn't exactly happy with being betrothed to Robert, going as far as saying Robert would never be faithful to her and he'd always be the man he was, a man with a wandering eye and a drunkard.

Rhaegar and Lyanna were in the middle of nowhere, perfectly happy with how things were. Just the two of them and noone to bother them, and away from Stark/Baratheon/Arryn & Targaryen loyalists who'd probably act on their own because the rumor was already established, "Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna". So why would Rhaegar endanger himself trying to talk things out with a hotheaded brother in Brandon who had more in common with Robert than with Ned. That almost definitely would've resulted in swords.

 

And yes, Lyanna totally kept and clutched her crown of blue rose petals in her deathbed, simply because she liked the color and smell of them, and that would totally make up for constant rape, since she was and unwillful participant according to you.. Lol

 

 

[Curled Finger]

Why does everyone seem to think Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna without Elia's consent?  Where does it say Elia wasn't complicit in absolutely every move Rhaegar made with Lyanna?  I don't remember ever reading that Elia and Rhaegar were in love.   By all accounts Elia appeared to support Rhaegar and who says his whacky prophesies weren't supported as well.  Elia could not have any more children.   She gave Rhaegar 2 strong beautiful children.    It was imperative that the dragon have 3 heads.  Elia understood that--she may have wanted to return to Dorne with her children still heirs as 1st wife of the prince.  Hells Bells could be Elia suggested Lyanna to Rhaegar after shenanigans at Harrenhall.  I am 100% not convinced that Elia and Rhaegar divorced or that Lyanna and Rhaegar were even married.   Aerys certainly didn't seem to know about a new marriage.  Rhaegar was a Targ.   Targs did whatever they wanted including but not limited to polygamy.   

We could all come up with multiple things Rhaegar and Lyanna could have done better.   Starting with getting the realm in order by having his circumspect meetings with all the young lords at Harrenhall.   Rhaegar could have sent Robert away if he'd enlisted his help instead of making enemies by slithering off.   That tells me things were well out of Rhaegar's control as early as Harrenhall.    Geez, I can see something as stupid as a title like Main Warrior in Charge of War placating Robert to the point he might look elsewhere for a bride.  (All Robert really wanted was to fight--he never loved Lyanna--he barely knew her.) The problem is the Tully/Arryn/Stark alliance was as quiet a conspiracy as any Rhaegar himself had.  

I reckon there was something within the prophesy that urged Rhaegar and Lyanna to take off together.   And Elia knew all about it.   What other reason would Rhaegar take his new lady to Dorne--he knew the relationship and lady would be safe there.   We are acquainted with the Dornish culture throughout AFFC.   Do we really need any more proof that Elia wasn't simply betrayed by Rhaegar? 

As readers we can argue and moralize all day long about Rhaegar and Elia and Lyanna.  It's probably too heated to really discuss in this medium.  We all see love and marriage and vows and family through the lens of our own progressive and modern times.  It wasn't like this way back then.   Marriage was a job, something you did whether you liked it or not.   This was still a nearly barbaric time for all its finery.   Kings and princes did as they pleased.  ASOIAF is full of absurd rulers.  

[divica]

On ‎13‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 7:22 AM, lAPPYc said:

Why did Rhaegar Targaryen take Lyanna Stark to the Tower of Joy? He was the Prince of Dragonstone.There was the Red Keep. Assuming that he knew about the grand plans and alliances of Rickard Stark, and that he was pressed by the necessity to impregnate Lyanna Stark to save the world, and assuming that she was in love with him, he would have had a much better future if he'd taken Lyanna to either Dragonstone or the Red Keep, or anywhere else, and just contacted Rickard Stark and traded Dorne for the price of the North, the Riverlands, and the maybe even the Vale once Hoster Tully marries Lysa to Jon Arryn(now that Jaime had taken the white). Dorne might have stewed, and of course, the Stormlord would have been angry. But this is a course that would have been worth trying. And if he thought Rickard Stark might prove reluctant to break his vow to the lecherous teenage orphaned lord of Storm's End who has never yet proved his mettle like Rhaegar has for the man his daughter actually loves, all he had to do was show him her swollen belly once he'd impregnated her, and now the only way for her father to save her honor would be for him to accept this marriage between his daughter and the Crown Prince who won the greatest tourney of them all.(Oh, what a hard choice)

He didn't try any of this though, and the only explanation I can come up with is that Lyanna refused to marry him.

Oh, she might have loved him. We know she didn't approve of the way Robert chased skirts, (I can't remember if she complained about his drinking, she might have), and we know she was willful and wild. But the fact that Rickard Stark calls it the 'wolf blood' tells us that she wasn't the first in the long ancient line of the Starks to have had this blood(Gee, what are the chances of that happening?). And yet the Starks are reputed to be honorable than most. That means that many, if not most, of their 'wolf blooded' children calmed their blood and went the honorable way(Gee, what are the chances of a lord's daughter adhering to the proud history of her house and making true on her promises?)

I am not saying that Lyanna Stark was the strongest of the people. It takes courage to put aside our own feelings and marry the man you hate for the good for your kingdom. And not all people are that strong. But had she consented to Rhaegar, he wouldn't have needed to hide her like he did. If it had been consensual, he'd have returned to the Red Keep once he heard of Brandon's arrest and of the fact that a summons has been sent to Rickard Stark. The summons went the north and then the lord of Winterfell made the long journey to the south, even by ship that's a lot of time(He'd have to journey to White Harbor) for Rhaegar to learn of the developments with the family of the woman whose love he meant to keep right there in the Tower of Joy.

So I do think that Lyanna was a strong woman who could put the needs of her kingdom before her own feelings. Maybe she had an affair with Rhaegar when he/or friends captured the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and maybe that's what prompted the Dragon Prince to recognize her as his true love/or meant to be and into giving her the crown of Love and Beauty.(I don't like to assume that he fell in love with her either. He was already being an asshole to Elia, he didn't need to actually fall for another woman too. He'd be a much better person if he did all this only for the kingdoms, and no f****ing love was involved). But when he offered her the chance to marry him, I think that for Lyanna, the good of her kingdoms was what her father told her. She is a sixteen-year-old girl and we have never been led to believe she knew enough about politics to recognize Rhaegar as a better match in her father's eyes. Rhaegar might have tried to convince by making the arguments mentioned above, but maybe he failed(How often do girls believe the wild tales men tell them when they know the man only wants to get in their pants? Very very few times, I hope).

All I know is that Rhaegar took pains to hide her till she was heavy with child. Dragonstone would be essentially a Dornish base at the moment what with Elia the homemaker, and who knows what a vengeful venomous person might do, so Rhaegar couldn't bring Lyanna there even if she had consented. But if she had consented, the Red Keep, the center of the Kingdom was the best place to plan his next alliances. I doubt Aerys would have been that much of a problem. Pycelle writes to the citadel that the 'Red Keep' was divided and that it reminded him of the court in the times of the Dance. So we know that Rhaegar had friends there. Even if he hadn't though, Aerys wouldn't have harmed him or Lyanna. For all he is thinking, Rhaegar is just following his little head. And if he thinks along the lines of 'Rhaegar just insulted Storm's End and the North', well, that's just the regular politics for the Red Keep, nothing to fear for your life, or that of your bastard's, or of that of the girl's that is making you look dishonorable in the eyes of the kingdom itching to crown you.

No, Rhaegar didn't bring her to the Red Keep because he was afraid Lyanna might find a helper to spirit her from the crowded Keep. That's regular politics also, especially if Lyanna was held against her will, and that's what he was afraid of. I want the Song of Ice and Fire be a saga of hard choices, and not a sappy love story that D&D have given to us.

The problem with what you are saying is that if rhaegar had kidnappend Lyanna and wanted to avoid complications he would have brought her to the red keep in order to keep her under control and show to her familly/robert that she is his hostage. So they couldn t try any funny business...

And if jon was a rape baby would ned really have to hide him? Would robert want to kill Lyanna's baby if it was a bastard from rape? Maybe because he has some claim to the throne but at the same time he is the son of the woman he loved and if raised by ned he isn t a big risk for the crown...

And I am amazed that nobody talked about a maester/hightower/septon conspiracy...

 

[theMADdestScientist_]

On 13/12/2017 at 8:40 AM, lAPPYc said:

I can defend myself by saying Rhaegar gave them to her because he knew she liked blue roses and that they might offer her some small amount of comfort from the agony of carrying a bastard borne of rape and having her whole life destroyed, but I know you will not want to see it.

[Noel E Mahc]

On 12/13/2017 at 2:22 AM, lAPPYc said:

Oh, she might have loved him.

I don't believe Lyanna loved Rhaegar.  

 

[Angel Eyes]

On 12/17/2017 at 5:33 PM, Curled Finger said:

Why does everyone seem to think Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna without Elia's consent?  Where does it say Elia wasn't complicit in absolutely every move Rhaegar made with Lyanna?  I don't remember ever reading that Elia and Rhaegar were in love.   By all accounts Elia appeared to support Rhaegar and who says his whacky prophesies weren't supported as well.  Elia could not have any more children.   She gave Rhaegar 2 strong beautiful children.    It was imperative that the dragon have 3 heads.  Elia understood that--she may have wanted to return to Dorne with her children still heirs as 1st wife of the prince.  Hells Bells could be Elia suggested Lyanna to Rhaegar after shenanigans at Harrenhall.  I am 100% not convinced that Elia and Rhaegar divorced or that Lyanna and Rhaegar were even married.   Aerys certainly didn't seem to know about a new marriage.  Rhaegar was a Targ.   Targs did whatever they wanted including but not limited to polygamy.   

We could all come up with multiple things Rhaegar and Lyanna could have done better.   Starting with getting the realm in order by having his circumspect meetings with all the young lords at Harrenhall.   Rhaegar could have sent Robert away if he'd enlisted his help instead of making enemies by slithering off.   That tells me things were well out of Rhaegar's control as early as Harrenhall.    Geez, I can see something as stupid as a title like Main Warrior in Charge of War placating Robert to the point he might look elsewhere for a bride.  (All Robert really wanted was to fight--he never loved Lyanna--he barely knew her.) The problem is the Tully/Arryn/Stark alliance was as quiet a conspiracy as any Rhaegar himself had.  

I reckon there was something within the prophesy that urged Rhaegar and Lyanna to take off together.   And Elia knew all about it.   What other reason would Rhaegar take his new lady to Dorne--he knew the relationship and lady would be safe there.   We are acquainted with the Dornish culture throughout AFFC.   Do we really need any more proof that Elia wasn't simply betrayed by Rhaegar? 

As readers we can argue and moralize all day long about Rhaegar and Elia and Lyanna.  It's probably too heated to really discuss in this medium.  We all see love and marriage and vows and family through the lens of our own progressive and modern times.  It wasn't like this way back then.   Marriage was a job, something you did whether you liked it or not.   This was still a nearly barbaric time for all its finery.   Kings and princes did as they pleased.  ASOIAF is full of absurd rulers.  

Because no one talks about how Elia felt about it.

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Because no one talks about how Elia felt about it.

Well said, even though my own comments were rhetorical.   There are a few posters who simply cannot see an alternative to Rhaegar the Rapist and the women who loved him.   You have all kinds of topics...care to open that discussion?   I would be interested to see what the readers who can see an alternative to the story think.   

[Angel Eyes]

25 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Well said, even though my own comments were rhetorical.   There are a few posters who simply cannot see an alternative to Rhaegar the Rapist and the women who loved him.   You have all kinds of topics...care to open that discussion?   I would be interested to see what the readers who can see an alternative to the story think.   

Well, let me think about what is said of Elia. 

Viserys says that Rhaegar was unhappy with Elia.

Barristan describes her as “good and gracious, kind and clever, with a sweet wit”.

Cersei resents her, saying that “It must have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin's daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest.” This one I don’t really understand. What’s wrong with having a flat chest?

There’s no mention in text of what Elia thought of Rhaegar and what he did; not even Oberyn, who perhaps knew her best, has anything to say on the matter. 

[theMADdestScientist_]

13 hours ago, Jamie Roberts said:

I don't believe Lyanna loved Rhaegar.  

If she didn't, then she was the only girl in the ream who didn't.

Even the guys loved him

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

If she didn't, then she was the only girl in the ream who didn't.

Even the guys loved him

A single sheet in a whole ream?

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, let me think about what is said of Elia. 

Viserys says that Rhaegar was unhappy with Elia.

Barristan describes her as “good and gracious, kind and clever, with a sweet wit”.

Cersei resents her, saying that “It must have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin's daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest.” This one I don’t really understand. What’s wrong with having a flat chest?

There’s no mention in text of what Elia thought of Rhaegar and what he did; not even Oberyn, who perhaps knew her best, has anything to say on the matter. 

Not a topic of it's own, but not a bad snapshot of the matter.   Well done.    Ah the flat chested.  I think that's just Cersei being Cersei.   She considers herself the golden standard and she is described as shapely I believe.   Had it not been the size of Elia's breasts it would have been her height of the shape of her feet or something else physical and completely meaningless.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Cersei resents her, saying that “It must have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin's daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest.” This one I don’t really understand. What’s wrong with having a flat chest?

There's nothing wrong with it, but Cersei is mean and enjoys tearing another woman down. She's being petty. It makes her feel better about herself that Elia may not have had as much boobage as Cersei does. Cersei's pride was stung more than once. Rhaegar married Elia, and then ran off with Lyanna. And I laugh for days at "the light of the west." Looking forward to finding out her thoughts on Lyanna. She already called her insipid.

[theMADdestScientist_]

52 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

There’s no mention in text of what Elia thought of Rhaegar and what he did; not even Oberyn, who perhaps knew her best, has anything to say on the matter. 

We do know how George R.R. Martin is though, when something bad is happening, what George does? he makes it even worse, think about Ned and then Robb Stark.

Following that line of thought, one can assume that if something is already tragic, George will make it even more tragic. I doubt Elia was involved in anything Rhaegar did, it just wouldn't make sense, she had kids, and the image of a woman who made her husband unhappy or just wanted to do her duty is not interesting. I don't see George writing something like that, i see him writing something more human, more complex.

What i see George writing is a woman who loved her husband, and said husband left her in the end, and to make things worse, the mountain rapes and butchers her. That's something i see George writing, and as unreliable as the show is, this is in line with what Oberyn said on the show: "my sister loved him, and beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her". Rhaegar also played a bittersweet song for Elia when Aegon was born, it was a happy moment, but Rhaegar(not Elia) also knew it was the end of their relationship.

The interesting part will be why Rhaegar couldn't love Elia? that's perhaps the complex stuff George is waiting to write about.

George doesn't want you to simply love his characters, he wants you to judge them, every single one of them, they are all flawed. Despite having a heart of gold, Ned and his foolish medieval sense of honor, as well as his unhealthy friendship with Robert Baratheon almost got the Starks all killed. That's a good example of how George writes.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

14 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

We do know how George R.R. Martin is though, when something bad is happening, what George does? he makes it even worse, think about Ned and then Robb Stark.

Following that line of thought, one can assume that if something is already tragic, George will make it even more tragic. I doubt Elia was involved in anything Rhaegar did, it just wouldn't make sense, she had kids, and the image of a woman who made her husband unhappy or just wanted to do her duty is not interesting. I don't see George writing something like that, i see him writing something more human, more complex.

What i see George writing is a woman who loved her husband, and said husband left her in the end, and to make things worse, the mountain rapes and butchers her. That's something i see George writing, and as unreliable as the show is, this is in line with what Oberyn said on the show: "my sister loved him, and beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her". Rhaegar also played a bittersweet song for Elia when Aegon was born, it was a happy moment, but Rhaegar(not Elia) also knew it was the end of their relationship.

I don't know what GRRM will write about Elia, but without looking at what Rhaegar did, I think her tragedy starts when she is the one who is sold for power. For all the claims that Dorne is so awesome and good to women, even if his marriage deteriorated, Doran still got to marry a woman he loved. He didn't marry someone to strengthen the position of Dorne within the realm. He followed his heart. Oberyn never married and fathered bastards left and right. But Elia, the woman whose health was notoriously fragile, was the one who got the arranged marriage and got sent away from Dorne. And for what? So that her mother could get one up on Tywin? The Princess of Dorne sucks. She let her sons do whatever they wanted and dropped her only daughter into a pit of vipers. 

[theMADdestScientist_]

6 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think her tragedy starts when she is the one who is sold for power. For all the claims that Dorne is so awesome and good to women, even if his marriage deteriorated, Doran still got to marry a woman he loved.

We don't know if she did not have a say in with who she married. When her mother was trying to betroth her to Jaime Lannister, she was a child, while Doran was an adult when he foud himself a wife, Oberyn got older without never finding a suitable match, and he ended up never marrying. It makes me think that Elia could have refused Rhaegar, since she was an adult by the time they married. But why would she refuse him? there's nothing on the books about it, but on the history and lore that comes with the blu-ray(this is on the show), Oberyn makes good points as to why Elia didn't refuse the match, in his own words: "Rhaegar was beautiful, and the crown prince of the seven kingdoms, and our mother had worked so hard to secure the match, how could Elia not accept it?"

It's not as if she was marrying a whoring drunk, Rhaegar had a good reputation by that point, but Elia couldn't possibly predict that Rhaegar would leave her and that a war would erupt in Westeros as a result.

6 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

But Elia, the woman whose health was notoriously fragile, was the one who got the arranged marriage and got sent away from Dorne. And for what? So that her mother could get one up on Tywin?

Precisely.

 

6 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

The Princess of Dorne sucks. She let her sons do whatever they wanted and dropped her only daughter into a pit of vipers. 

Elia's mother served Rhaegar's mother in King's Landing when the place wasn't so dangerous. King's Landing is only a pit of vipers if you arrive at the wrong time, and Aerys insanity wasn't something obvious for outsiders.

Ned Stark on the other hand, he had a pretty good idea of what King's Landing was like with the Lannisters around, and he went there all the same, and what's worse, he brought his daughters with him

[Noel E Mahc]

10 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

If she didn't, then she was the only girl in the ream who didn't.

Even the guys loved him

Some ladies are like that.  Everyone thinks this guy is hot and there's one female who thinks he's average, lol. 

[RhaegoTheUnborn]

Except there's really nothing that implies that she didn't love Rhaegar and vice versa. Theres much saying Rhaegar loved her, but Lyanna's feelings will be purposely left vague until probably the final book.