R+L=J v.165

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Sure it would. Eddard had kept the lie his whole life, and Jon suffered for not knowing the truth. Of course Jon would have suffered much more if Eddard had told the truth. And Eddard had just just failed his house versus Cersei. But I am not sure why I am arguing anymore...

Perhaps ot got lost somewhere in between - I thought you claimed that he would want to have a fatherly talk with Jon regardless if there was a secret or not, so I wanted to point out that the shame does point to a secret. But NVM.

[Geddus]

14 hours ago, IronBars said:

Which begs the question, maybe he didnt tell him because was nothing to tell? That is a more then fair thought and more then enough to question the validity of the R+L=J. 

What do you mean? Jon had a mother whose identity was unknown, so in any case there would be something to tell.

Ned kept that secret fiercely; he knew Catelyn and Jon himself, two people he loved very much, were suffering because of it and still refused to talk. Why? He must have had a good reason.

Lyanna being Jon's mother with either Rhaegar or Aerys as the father are the only two options I can think of that explain that, and the mad king sounds impossible because as far as we know Lyanna was not in King's Landing when Jon was conceived. That leaves R+L.

I'd like to hear an alternative theory that explains Ned's silence without making him either a complete asshole or an utter idiot, it hasn't happened so far.

[IronBars]

11 hours ago, Faera said:

Since I'm not entirely clear anymore what the aim of the discussion was, I'll make this my last post on the matter:

To me, the idea that Ned could possibly have "nothing to tell" is incorrect. Regardless of who Jon's mother was there is something for Ned to tell because her identity is still a secret even to this day. So, it isn't a question unique to RLJ by any means. Ned chose to continually withhold this information from Jon for some reason. Hence, justifications et al presented because there must be a reason why he didn't tell Jon. 

I know you have said several times that you are "99%" sure RLJ is true but in the case of your idea, the best I can suggest is maybe roll back the question at hand to open up the discussion to outside of RLJ? As I said, Ned's continued silence over the matter is an issue relevant to all Jon Snow mother theories. Yes, a lot of people will still look at the question through the lens of RLJ but by removing the pre-set assumption of who Jon's mother is altogether you allow alternative theorists and the people who don't have a strong opinion either way to say what they think. Take RLJ completely out of the equation, take every Jon's mother theory out of the equation and leave the simple question of "Why didn't Ned tell Jon who his mother is before he joined the NW?"

True, though it is interesting it is only Jon he feels this way about and none of his other children in this moment. Context is key here once again, if I recall correctly, this bit happens in the Black Cells after Varys presents the possibility that Cersei will arrange for Ned to join the Night's Watch, to be with "your brother and that baseborn son of yours."

So, all this 'sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words' that hits Ned at the thought of Jon might not from the fear that he might never see his son again but the carrot being dangled before him; prospect that he will see Jon again, at that infamous place where all past honours, sins and crimes are forgotten and you start anew, and alleviate this shame and sorrow "if only" he could sit and talk with Jon. That might lend weight to the idea that Ned wants to get something off his chest rather than a general longing to see his son again.

Ugh, sorry if that doesn't make sense. It's well past my bedtime 

I said that to a mod in mail, that since R+L=J is just a theory the arguments for the other theories should have the same dedicated thread like this one, (pinned at the start like this one) so people may add to/read in same place, not have arguments for the other theories buried in the pages of this one, 

His reply was that there are other threads for them already (from how long ago im not sure but there buried somewhere while the R+L=J thread is pinned right at the start) and because the arguments against those theories are refuted in the R+L=J thread ( not sure how the theory can be refuted when R+L=J is just a theory to) they must be argued here.

He then said he noted my opinion but that wasnt sufficient to change the forum.

Now that to me seems R+L=J is held up higher then the other theories, by the forum mods, which is wrong, all theories have the same merit until one is proven correct, 

What i was trying to do in my original post which was called R+L≠J, was create a thread where all arguments against the theory, could be compiled, but it was locked and i was told put it here where all the diehard R+L=J people who see no other theory having merit are an instead of anyone seeing why i was saying what i was saying i was shouted down by why ned didnt this or that, which every reason they gave why ned didnt this or that had i was able to counter argue anyway.

To say ned didnt tell jon for his safety and to prevent civil war etc is a very weak counter point to: why ned should of told him if was true:

Because:

1. Telling jon isnt telling all westeros -and given we see how jon handles his family being wiped out it is easy see he could of handled the truth, and ned should of known enough of his character to know that because hes character didnt change enough in the time between joining the NW and that occuring (unless you claim ned was ignorant to jons character you cant refute that, a parent knows there child)

2. Jons life is in mortal danger at the wall anyway so its same as someone finding out who jon is anyway and if someone does find out who he is better jon knows so hes more careful/cautious etc instead of being blind.

Also ned knows the state the watch is in, how far it has fallen etc and doesnt feel the need to tell jon even though jon is deluded to thinking its what it was 2000 years before.

3. Since they know viserys and dany exist somewhere they have jon (incase they show up trying to claim the throne ) who has a better claim then them if hes legitimate. So jon joining the watch will deny him his birthright and negate his claim, 

4  GRRM dislikes fantasy troupes and clichès, cant get more cliche then a secret hidden crown prince, who many believe is also a saviour reborn in TPWWP AND/OR AA, 

To those 4 things saying Ned didnt tell jon because jons safety, or because a civil war might happen is a weak point. And thats all was argued against what i said.

Im finished with this topic now because trying to make people with blinkers on take them off is pointess when they dont even try see why i am saying it and just shout it down because they believe the R+L=J THEORY to the point defend it instead of questioning it.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

12 hours ago, Faera said:

That's another good point, and a sad one -- this idea that even in his final moments or in his ghostly state, he still had that shame and sadness about "something to do about Jon".

And more disturbing to Bran than even the crow dreams, too.

Got to wonder what the dream was and if Rickon had the same dream. It's also the same chapter we're told that Rickard was beheaded, which we know is a lie, and Bran gives Osha the kidnapping and rape story for Lyanna.

 

[Faera]

37 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Got to wonder what the dream was and if Rickon had the same dream. It's also the same chapter we're told that Rickard was beheaded, which we know is a lie, and Bran gives Osha the kidnapping and rape story for Lyanna.

 

If they did have same dream, complete with Ned talking to them about Jon, then I do wonder why only they had the dream and not the other Stark children including Jon. Is it a proximity issue where those closest to the crypts got the dream, or is it related to power? We know Bran is a greenseer - so is the hint that Rickon saw the dream suggestive of his own powers?

So, if Ned’s spirit was lingering because of something to do with Jon, why not directly to Jon who we know had Winterfell Crypt dreams - to the point where it’s a recurring nightmare.

And, even though Bran can’t remember what Ned was sad about though he “thinks” it was to do with Jon, why is the after feeling so disturbing? Is Bran disturbed because he dreamed his father in the crypts (indicating death) or because of a lingering feeling he felt while talking with Ned? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Perhaps ot got lost somewhere in between - I thought you claimed that he would want to have a fatherly talk with Jon regardless if there was a secret or not, so I wanted to point out that the shame does point to a secret. But NVM.

I think I agree with you and others... I think he might have wanted to tell him, and he might have even have intended to tell him if he got the chance. The point I was making is that there are other rational explanations, so it's not definitive. 

[Ygrain]

54 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Got to wonder what the dream was and if Rickon had the same dream. It's also the same chapter we're told that Rickard was beheaded, which we know is a lie, and Bran gives Osha the kidnapping and rape story for Lyanna.

Both saw Ned in the crypts in their dream, so vividly that they went looking for him there. But while Bran remembers talking about Jon, Rickon says that father said he was coming home, so...

Another interesting thing is the weird reaction from both Hodor and Summer, as if something was really down there.

[Ygrain]

38 minutes ago, Faera said:

I do wonder why only they had the dream and not the other Stark children including Jon. Is it a proximity issue where those closest to the crypts got the dream, or is it related to power?

Given the weird presence that both Hodor and Summer were sensing, I'd bet on the crypts. And/or weirwood... were the weirwood roots growing the the walls of the crypts, or am I misremembering?

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

5 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Given the weird presence that both Hodor and Summer were sensing, I'd bet on the crypts. And/or weirwood... were the weirwood roots growing the the walls of the crypts, or am I misremembering?

 

If their were weirwood roots in the crypts, that would come up as a topic... A LOT. 

[Ygrain]

11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

If their were weirwood roots in the crypts, that would come up as a topic... A LOT. 

A good point

However, can it be ruled out? 

 

[Julia H.]

What I know from child psychology is that keeping important secrets from a child (like the child's true parentage) is usually harmful. Lying to a child about the child's parents or other important things regarding the child's life or identity is equally harmful because most children will sense that there is a secret somewhere and it will cause distrust and a lot of anxiety and will damage the relationship between the child and the parents raising him. But about the worst thing adoptive parents can do is keeping the child's origin a secret until the child is fourteen or fifteen years old and revealing it then, when "the child is old enough to understand". Adolescence already involves a natural identity crisis, so that's about the worst time for someone to learn that their whole life "has been a lie" so far. (Just musing here...)

Now, Ned is not a psychologist, but he is quite a perceptive parent and caring as well. If he simply kept the knowledge of his birth from Jon out of personal shame or some other selfish (and relatively unimportant) reason, then he will be uncharacteristically self-centred and either cruel or very stupid. If he keeps Jon's birth a secret because through this secret he is protecting lives (and it doesn't really matter whose lives), that's understandable and honourable. In this case, he simply chooses the lesser of two evils, which is the best thing he can do. 

On 2018. 01. 24. at 6:43 PM, IronBars said:

There all reasons ned should of told jon in my opinion, it isnt and wasnt neds place to deny jons his heritage, 

 

Reading through the posts, it is still not clear what you mean by Jon's heritage.

If you mean that because of his Targaryen father Jon has or may have a claim to the IT, well, from Ned's viewpoint this sort of heritage is completely moot as Robert's rebellion took away that claim from all Targaryens and it is definitely not Ned's intention to raise a pretender against his friend Robert in his household. From Ned's point of view, revealing the truth to Jon would not give him back that sort of heritage, nor would Ned want Jon to pursue any claims to the IT. 

If you mean that Ned has denied Jon the knowledge of his family history and cultural heritage, that is (while true) not an argument against R+L=J because Jon has a right to know his heritage in any case. If he is Ashara's son, for example, doesn't he have the right to know he is related to a legendary family and a legendary knight, the Sword of the Morning? (At the moment when Jon joins the NW, a known Dayne-bastard may have more chance to become the next Sword of the Morning than a known Targaryen-bastard - or even a legitimate Targaryen - may have to win the IT.) If Jon is the son of a Dornish peasant girl, doesn't he have the right to know about his Dornish cultural heritage, to get a chance to travel to Dorne before he moves to the Wall forever? If he is the son of the fisherman's daughter, that also comes with a cultural heritage (perhaps his mother was of the Faith, for example). A fisherman's grandson may be just as much interested in his family history and cultural heritage and in the identity of his mother, as a Targaryen can be. Again, to deny Jon this heritage only makes sense if there is a goal more important than his right to know about his true parentage, whatever it involves. Frankly, even if Jon was born in a brothel, he has a right to know and to deal with the knowledge.

On 2018. 01. 25. at 1:27 PM, IronBars said:

The fact later in the book ned has no qualms telling robert the children he thinks are his are infact jamie lannisters (which would have the near the exact same result ie a civil war ) makes the arguement he didnt tell jon for the fear of starting a civil war a false idea because he was willing to do just that so robert new the truth.

 

No, Ned didn't just want to tell Robert so that Robert knew the truth. He considered it right that King Robert should be succeeded on the throne by his own flesh and blood, not by some bastard planted in the family by a Lannister plot, who has no blood ties to Robert. Robert has plenty of male relations, including brothers and illegitimate sons. If Robert found out that his supposed true-born children weren't his, he would have the opportunity to either legitimise one of his bastards or to declare Stannis his heir or to remarry and father a legitimate son with another wife. The very fact that Ned chooses not to tell Robert the truth when Robert is already dying and couldn't do much about the problem anyway, but would suffer from the knowledge in the last hour of his life, indicates that Ned wasn't going to tell him just so Robert would know but in order to prevent Robert's throne being usurped by a Lannister bastard. 

While Robert is strong and alive and sits the Iron Throne, it is his right to defend his crown against usurpers. The idea that Tywin would rebel if Cersei and her children were removed from the royal family is not a good enough reason, in Ned's book, to betray his king and allow his throne to be usurped by the Lannisters, by the bastard of the woman who robbed Robert of the chance to have true-born children. 

That's completely different from Ned encouraging in any way a civil war between his best friend and his own nephew for the sole reason that Jon has a right to know about his heritage. 

By telling Robert the truth about Joffrey, Ned would be protecting Robert's throne (even at the cost of a war). By causing Jon to claim his "heritage", Ned would endanger Robert's throne. In the first case, the civil war would be between Ned's friend and Ned's enemies. In the second case, the civil war would be between Ned's best friend and Ned's own nephew. With Sansa being betrothed to Joffrey, such a civil war would be right in Ned's family. That's the sort of civil war that Ned would certainly want to avoid. (Did anyone claim that Ned would always want to avoid any civil war at whatever price? LOL, that wouldn't be the Ned we know.) 

On 2018. 01. 25. at 1:27 PM, IronBars said:

The argument he didnt tell jon for jons own safety is valid only up until jon is joinng the NW - because jons life is in mortal danger at the wall and ned let him take the black with not so much as an attempt to stop him. So at this poimt the argument he didnt tell jon for jons safety also becomes a false idea. Because 1. Hes going to be in danger anyway and 2. Once takes the black he renounces all claims (he may have).

 

Telling Jon his true parentage at the point where Jon decides to take the black would not increase Jon's safety in any way. Either Jon still joins the Watch, and then this knowledge wouldn't protect him against anything, or Jon decides not to join the Watch - and then what? How would Jon have more options at this point knowing his true parentage than not knowing it? Remember, he decided to join the Watch and Ned agreed to let him do it mainly because neither of them saw other possibilities - Jon in the long run, while Ned in the short run at least. With Ned gone, Cat wasn't going to tolerate Jon in Winterfell, and Ned didn't consider it a good idea to take him to King's Landing. On the one hand, if Jon wanted to keep the secret of his birth, then he would remain the same in the eyes of people, and he would have exactly the same options as without knowing the secret, so he would have exactly as much reason to join the NW as without knowing the truth about his birth. On the other hand, if Jon decided to reveal this secret or to openly claim his heritage (whatever it is), it would put him in direct mortal danger (on the Wall or anywhere else) and would jeopardize everything that Ned held dear. 

However, Jon's safety is not at all the only point that Ned must consider. By deciding to raise Rhaegar's son, Ned took a huge risk. It was his duty to protect his nephew, but it was also his duty to protect his wife and his own children. If it becomes known that the Starks are hiding a Targaryen, then the whole family will be in danger due to Ned's "treason". To what extent each of them would be in danger cannot be predicted for sure, but it's something Ned certainly doesn't wish to empirically find out. Ned owes it to his children and his wife to minimize the danger he has put them in by protecting a Targaryen child, and that goal takes priority over Jon's (undeniably existing) right to know about his origin. 

While it is true that telling Jon the secret doesn't exactly equal telling it to everyone, it is also true that the more people know, the more the secret as a means of protecting his family is out of Ned's hand, thus the risk increases. Besides, you seem to also argue that Jon should learn the secret because it would give him certain options. Now I'm quite certain that Ned wouldn't want Jon to do anything about his Targaryen heritage for reasons that involve more than Jon's personal safety alone. All in all, there is no way that this secret gives Jon any new options while it is known only by Jon and Ned and no one else; on the other hand, there is no way Jon is not in more danger when more people learn about his true origin. 

If we look at Ned's priorities, it is easy to notice that protecting innocent children against danger in general is very high on his list. It doesn't only apply to Jon, it applies to Ned's own children, it applies to a teenage Targaryen he has never seen, it applies even to the children of his worst enemy (he wants to protect even Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen from Robert's revenge). Secrecy is protection not only for Jon but also for Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon; and Ned is not going to jeopardize their safety just so Jon could perhaps have a chance to start an adventurous and probably disastrous attempt to win the throne. 

Sending Jon to the Wall doesn't contradict the notion of protecting children. Boys growing up in noble families are trained and raised to be warriors, which, of course, includes the possibility of dying young in a fight. However, in Westerosi society learning to fight and to protect yourself is probably considered safer than never lifting a sword and thus being unable to protect yourself. Jon, like so many other boys, was destined to become some sort of soldier unless he was more interested in becoming a maester (which he apparently wasn't), and he received appropriate education. Becoming a soldier and fighting against some kind of enemy is what most boys in the Seven Kingdoms (including Ned's own sons) can expect to do when they grow up (and wildlings are relatively harmless for an enemy). Being slaughtered as a child, without having the strength or skills to protect yourself, is the fate that Ned finds absolutely appalling and unacceptable.

Ned was able to give Jon the skills that he needed to protect himself in a fight against wildlings or outlaws or even knights and Ironborn raiders. He couldn't give him the means to protect himself against the power of a suspicious or revengeful Iron Throne. Secrecy was the only way.

But even if (if!) Ned was going to tell Jon, at some point, the truth, I guess the time when they were surrounded by half the royal court may have seemed somewhat inopportune. 

On the question why Ned didn't leave Jon with Howland Reed (or any other family): One of the reasons could be that he didn't consider it fair to put another family in this kind of danger. He chose to take the risk himself and to also be as much in control of the whole situation as he could.  

Finally, it is even possible that Ned would have more reason to tell Jon the truth about his birth if Jon didn't join the NW but became the lord of a small holdfast, married some girl and wanted to start a family. It is not impossible that a child takes after his / her grandfather, and should Jon's wife start giving birth to silver-haired and purple-eyed babies, Jon would have to know why it is and that he has to hide and protect his children before any news of them reaches the Iron Throne. In this respect, for Jon to join the NW could be seen by Ned as the best way to prevent such embarrassing future complications.  

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Faera said:

If they did have same dream, complete with Ned talking to them about Jon, then I do wonder why only they had the dream and not the other Stark children including Jon. Is it a proximity issue where those closest to the crypts got the dream, or is it related to power? We know Bran is a greenseer - so is the hint that Rickon saw the dream suggestive of his own powers?

Maybe it's several things? 

There's this sort of clash between Osha and Maester Luwin about what's beyond the Wall. She's a believer because she's seen things and Maester Luwin is a skeptic. He believes that magic has gone from the world. 

The way Winterfell is described seen from above, like a heart tree, to me that indicates that crypts are Winterfell's roots. Bran reached Jon who is beyond the Wall from the crypts. So that's some really powerful stuff.

I think that proximity might have something to do with Bran and Rickon, and that perhaps, Ned after his death had already returned home. Perhaps Ned is one of those ghosts that are free to roam the castle now, especially since the sword that was forged by Mikken for the tomb was taken when the gang escaped after the sack of Winterfell. 

Maybe Brandon and Rickon saw Ned because he's the one who sought them out and they were the only children left in the castle?

1 hour ago, Faera said:

So, if Ned’s spirit was lingering because of something to do with Jon, why not directly to Jon who we know had Winterfell Crypt dreams - to the point where it’s a recurring nightmare.

It's a good question considering Ned's thoughts in his final chapter about sitting with Jon and talking to him, and his shame and all that. That said, maybe he did go to Jon and Jon just blocked whatever it is he dreamt. The last chapter we see Jon before Ned's death his hand is burnt, he's been drinking milk of the poppy for the pain, he's been having nightmares of fighting corpses with blue eyes, black hands and his father's face.

Bran VII follows Arya V the chapter in which Ned is killed. We don't know how long it took the raven to arrive in Winterfell, but Ned appears to Bran and Rickon the night before they receive the news of his death. 

Jon finds out about Ned's death off page. We don't know if the news came from Winterfell or from King's Landing. But by the next Jon chapter (his last one), we've had the battle at the Green Fork, the battle of Whispering Wood and the Battle of the Camps. So there is time there that's unaccounted for (although these battles happen very close together), so who knows, really, if it's not one of those things that Jon just represses because he finds it too disturbing.

1 hour ago, Faera said:

And, even though Bran can’t remember what Ned was sad about though he “thinks” it was to do with Jon, why is the after feeling so disturbing? Is Bran disturbed because he dreamed his father in the crypts (indicating death) or because of a lingering feeling he felt while talking with Ned? 

It could be both, but I'm more inclined to think it has to do with Jon because that's where Bran's focus seemed to be, on his father being sad and that it had to do with Jon.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

A good point

However, can it be ruled out? 

 

Nope. Coincidentally I was wondering about whether Eddard’s kings of winter and snarling direwolves might have some physical connection to the weirnet net down there just the other night. 

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Both saw Ned in the crypts in their dream, so vividly that they went looking for him there. But while Bran remembers talking about Jon, Rickon says that father said he was coming home, so...

Another interesting thing is the weird reaction from both Hodor and Summer, as if something was really down there.

I’m on my phone so forgive the lack of fully pasted quotes, but if I remember correctly, in this scene Luwin also responds to Rickon that Ned won’t come home for “years”, or something the like. 

I always took this as Ned’s bones won’t be back for years, and Luwin didn’t realize how right he was, just not literally correct as he thought he presumed (a living Eddard). 

If there is one thing and one thing only I want to be resolved in these books, it is the location and safe return of Ned’s bones. 

ADDING: OK, the quote was driving me nuts, so I just ran down to my computer to find it to make sure I did not suffer a memory slip

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

"I told you. To look for Father."

The maester tugged at the chain around his neck, as he often did when he was uncomfortable. "Bran, sweet child, one day Lord Eddard will sit below in stone, beside his father and his father's father and all the Starks back to the old Kings in the North … but that will not be for many years, gods be good. Your father is a prisoner of the queen in King's Landing. You will not find him in the crypts."

"He was there last night. I talked to him."

[Ygrain]

41 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

The last chapter we see Jon before Ned's death his hand is burnt, he's been drinking milk of the poppy for the pain, he's been having nightmares of fighting corpses with blue eyes, black hands and his father's face.

Yeah, those are very interesting nightmares. Are they normal dreams, prompted solely by the equally nightmarish experience with the wights and fear for his father's life, or are they premonition of Ned's death? Or of something even more sinister, running in the Stark blood, and perhaps lurking in the crypts? I'm pretty sure Old Nan would have a tale to tell about those ghosts!

6 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Nope. Coincidentally I was wondering about whether Eddard’s kings of winter and snarling direwolves might have some physical connection to the weirnet net down there just the other night. 

Me too, though like a year or two ago

Either way, the crypts are definitely an intriguing place... we need TWOW!

[Julia H.]

2 hours ago, Faera said:

If they did have same dream, complete with Ned talking to them about Jon, then I do wonder why only they had the dream and not the other Stark children including Jon. Is it a proximity issue where those closest to the crypts got the dream, or is it related to power? We know Bran is a greenseer - so is the hint that Rickon saw the dream suggestive of his own powers?

 

Bran is a greenseer, and at the moment he is also the Stark in Winterfell. Rickon is kind of the spare Stark in Winterfell, and he may also have certain powers. 

They both feel quite comfortable about going into the crypts when they are awake, and they probably feel comfortable about it in their dreams, while Jon's crypt dreams are mainly about not wanting to go there and not feeling welcome. 

42 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's a good question considering Ned's thoughts in his final chapter about sitting with Jon and talking to him, and his shame and all that. That said, maybe he did go to Jon and Jon just blocked whatever it is he dreamt. The last chapter we see Jon before Ned's death his hand is burnt, he's been drinking milk of the poppy for the pain, he's been having nightmares of fighting corpses with blue eyes, black hands and his father's face.

 

That's a great point. Ned's spirit may try to approach Jon as well, but Jon may be unable to see a normal dream due to the milk of the poppy and the trauma he has suffered, so all he sees is a nightmare. Also, if, in his dream, he realizes that his father is dead ("corpse"), he may not be able to pay attention to anything that his father is trying to tell him about himself, because he is focused on Ned, not on himself. Bran at least remembers that there was something about Jon, but not even he can tell what it was, which is also curious and may indicate that the communication wasn't perfect there either.

[Jaehaerys Tyrell]

4 hours ago, IronBars said:

Now that to me seems R+L=J is held up higher then the other theories, by the forum mods, which is wrong, all theories have the same merit until one is proven correct, 

This is false, R+L=J has far more merit due to the amount of evidence. I could theorise that Jon is the son of Pycelle and Rhaella. That doesn’t automatically give it merit. 

[Faera]

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Given the weird presence that both Hodor and Summer were sensing, I'd bet on the crypts. And/or weirwood... were the weirwood roots growing the the walls of the crypts, or am I misremembering?

I think that's just a presumption that goes around -- unless GRRM mentioned it off-hand somewhere I don't remember it coming up in the books. weirwood roots running through the crypts would definitely be bookmarked by me by now if I'd read it, aha!  However, given the vastness of the crypts, it might be that parts of it lie beneath the entire surface space of Winterfell, including the godwood. We can't be sure either way, though so it's all speculation.

I has always interested me that Hodor wouldn't go down to the crypts that time and I always wondered what could have been down there. A spirit? But why would it leave its "residue" behind? Was it actually Ned or something else? He died all the way in KL yet his spirit made it all the way to the crypts despite his bones still having not made it passed the Neck.

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's a good question considering Ned's thoughts in his final chapter about sitting with Jon and talking to him, and his shame and all that. That said, maybe he did go to Jon and Jon just blocked whatever it is he dreamt. The last chapter we see Jon before Ned's death his hand is burnt, he's been drinking milk of the poppy for the pain, he's been having nightmares of fighting corpses with blue eyes, black hands and his father's face.

Bran VII follows Arya V the chapter in which Ned is killed. We don't know how long it took the raven to arrive in Winterfell, but Ned appears to Bran and Rickon the night before they receive the news of his death. 

Jon finds out about Ned's death off page. We don't know if the news came from Winterfell or from King's Landing. But by the next Jon chapter (his last one), we've had the battle at the Green Fork, the battle of Whispering Wood and the Battle of the Camps. So there is time there that's unaccounted for (although these battles happen very close together), so who knows, really, if it's not one of those things that Jon just represses because he finds it too disturbing.

I kept thinking that Jon had a dream like that but I couldn't remember where and when so thank you for reminding me! Perhaps there is indeed an argument to be made that the milk of the poppy interfered with Ned's "message" reaching Jon...? It's a possibility. I'll have to go back and read again to try and get the context better.

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It could be both, but I'm more inclined to think it has to do with Jon because that's where Bran's focus seemed to be, on his father being sad and that it had to do with Jon.

 

Yep, I'd say that's a fair assumption:

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"I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."
"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.
"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts." Bran VII, AGoT

Thinking about it, the 3EC seems to be the propagator of the dream as much as Ned might have been. So, it is entirely possible that the dream was supposed to be Bran-specific but Rickon picked up on it. Unless, the 3EC has been visiting Rickon as well and we don't know about it because he's four and can't explain it very well or possibly Bran himself had a mash-up dream as we are speculating Jon could've had. So, originally the Crow was just going to do his normal bit but then he consciously directed Bran to Ned in the crypts...? 

Plus as @Julia H. noted...

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

while Jon's crypt dreams are mainly about not wanting to go there and not feeling welcome. 

Even though we know Jon has very happily gone down there when awake, based on the memory Bran(?) had about the pranks he and Robb used to play of the younger three siblings. With Jon pretending to be a ghost while Robb is showing off the spots in the crypts made for Bran, Arya and Sansa or something.

Yet, in his dreams, the focus is very much about the dead coming out and making him feel unwelcome. Plus, without a "spirit-guide" in the form of the 3EC to lead him there, for all we know Jon could have mistaken any attempt of Ned to call him down to the crypt to talk to him in a dream with his recurring nightmare. (That was a weird sentence! I hope I'm making sense... )

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I always took this as Ned’s bones won’t be back for years, and Luwin didn’t realize how right he was, just not literally correct as he thought he presumed (a living Eddard). 

Yeah, more true than he knew :-(

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

If there is one thing and one thing only I want to be resolved in these books, it is the location and safe return of Ned’s bones. 

You and me both! - Though, there is one thing I would like to see even more: my favourite craskpot that "the bones remember" meme has a hidden meaning, so that we could see a certain reveal from a rather unexpected perspective. With the presumed conjunction of people and items, including the bones, at the Neck, HR might perform some very interesting magicks with the bones!

2 hours ago, Julia H. said:

They both feel quite comfortable about going into the crypts when they are awake, and they probably feel comfortable about it in their dreams, while Jon's crypt dreams are mainly about not wanting to go there and not feeling welcome. 

It is curious, though, that Summer is not feeling particularly comfortable even when there are no ghosts lurking around:

"all was black and still and black and cold and black and dead and black"

I wonder whether this is just thoughts of a wolf out of his normal environment, or a hint at something else.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Given the weird presence that both Hodor and Summer were sensing, I'd bet on the crypts. And/or weirwood... were the weirwood roots growing the the walls of the crypts, or am I misremembering?

 

No reference to weirwood roots in the accessible level of the crypts, but, here's a Bran POV describing Winterfell:

To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldn’t even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth…