R+L=J v.165

[IceFire125]

4 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

If "smoke and salt" is actually "smoke and snow," then symbolically this could represent both Targaryen and Stark, rather than just Stark:

Smoke = Fire = Targaryen

Snow = Ice = Stark

Or in other words, Smoke + Snow = Jon.

 

You can also add the symbolism and attribute to Targaryenism with Ash and Cinders...

She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.
Only death can pay for life.
And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.
The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.
When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away … yet she was unhurt.
The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right. Her arms cradled them close. The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin. When it saw Jorah, it raised its head and looked at him with eyes as red as coals.

- Dany AGOT (hatching of dragons)

Ash and Cinders...

“Down,” the prince commanded. You must not let him smell your fear. “Down, down, down.” He brought the whip around and laid a lash across the dragon’s face. Viserion hissed.
And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!”
Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.
When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.
Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

-  Dragontamer ADWD (Quentyn facing Viserion and Rhaegal)

Ash and Cinders laying under the snow...

It was warmer in the godswood, strange to say. Beyond its confines, a hard white frost gripped Winterfell. The paths were treacherous with black ice, and hoarfrost sparkled in the moonlight on the broken panes of the Glass Gardens. Drifts of dirty snow had piled up against the walls, filling every nook and corner. Some were so high they hid the doors behind them. Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders...

- The Prince of Winterfell ADWD (Theon at Winterfell)

“I trust you enjoyed the journey, Your Grace?”
Robert snorted. “Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I’ve never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?”
“Likely they were too shy to come out,” Ned jested. He ould feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. “Kings are a rare sight in the north.”
Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!” The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended.

-  Eddard AGOT (King Robert visits Winterfell)

Ash and Cinders, Kings and Dragons...

“His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.”
Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.”
“Kings and dragons.”
Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame.

- Jon ADWD

 

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

What is "smoke and salt"? Is it literally just smoke and salt? If so, how literal? If not, how figurative? I was rereading the Ned's ToJ dream a year or two back and noticed something. That certain colors are rather prominent. There's a mention of blue at the end, and a few mentions of red; the Red Mountains of Dorne, Lord Dustin's destrier, and the color of blood streaked in the sky. But also white and grey. Notice the descriptions of the three KG. Something white is mentioned; with Arthur it's Dawn, with Oswell his white and black helm, and the moniker Ser Gerold is well known by, the White Bull. These descriptions follow the opening paragraph noting "the three kingsguard in their white cloaks." 

Then there is the way Ned's companions are described in this dream; "grey wraiths." As we know the grey wraiths do battle with the white cloaks. Which means they're paired in the way that any combatants are. White and grey. And as any ASoIaF will immediately realize those are the Stark colors. But, and perhaps coincidentally, they're also the colors of smoke and salt, which are linked to the birth, or rebirth, of Azor Ahor.

We know that the PtwP is meant to be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. And that Azor Ahai, purportedly the same person as the PtwP, is meant to be born, or reborn, amidst smoke and salt. Well, it had occurred to me that if "smoke and salt" aren't completely literal, then maybe the prophecies are talking about the colors of smoke and salt, grey and white; the Stark colors.

So, we have a hero descended from Targaryens born amidst the Stark colors. Maybe it's just a coincidence, but maybe not. And I think it pairs nicely with the black and red colors—Targaryen colors—from Ned's memories of Lyanna's deathbed where the room smells of "blood and roses." With the blood being red, and the roses described as dead and black. 

In addition to your theory - originally those roses were blue. It's the same roses that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna at Harrenhal.

In the House of Undying Dany had two visions, that I think are about Jon Snow.

This one is about his birth at Tower of Joy:

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From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies

Smoking tower - Tower of Joy (Ned destroyed that tower after Lyanna's death, could be that he also burned it). Smoke - white color. Stone - grey color. White and grey colors together - symbol of House Stark.

Winged beast - a chimera, half-dragon half-wolf - Jon Snow, son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Breathing shadow fire - living in secret, hiden Targaryen/dragon. Stone beast / petrified / binded by lies about his origin, and his bastard status. In this vision Dany is called slayer of lies, thus she will find out truth about Jon.

She will slay a lie that Jon is a bastard of Ned Stark.

Both of them (Dany and Jon) are Azor Ahai - he will wield Lightbringer (the Dawn sword of Daynes), and she will wake up the dragons from the stone. Three actual dragons from stone eggs, and fourth, the last dragon - Jon Snow. Dany will wake up the dragon. People said that Rhaegar was the last dragon, but the real last dragon is his son Aegon VII Targaryen. He will be Aegon the Seventh, because next Aegon will be Young Griff / fAegon. But he's Aegon VI Blackfyre, not Targaryen. He's a mummers dragon, another lie that will be slayed by Dany.

(The third lie is that Stannis is Azor Ahai. His sword is also a fake. He's a blue-eyed king without a shadow. His shadow killed Renly, and thus now he has no shadow.)

And this vision is about Jon's life in Winterfell:

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A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Lyanna's child growing in Winterfell, given small place (chink) in Starks family, and as a bastard, constantly surrounded by animosity/indifference/contempt - "ice" - of other people from that household. Growing up in Winterfell, he didn't had there a place for him to put down his roots, place to settle for good. For him there was no fertile soil in Winterfell, only ice.

In this vision Dany is called bride of fire, because she and Jon will be together. He's Azor Ahai / fire, and she is his bride (Nissa Nissa?). Also the Undying said:

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three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . .

This is about three men (mounts) with whom she will have sex (ride): one to bed - her paramour Daario Naharis, one to dread - her treacherous second husband Hizdahr zo Loraq, and one to love - her third husband Jon Snow.

And about smoke and salt - there could be even more interpretations, than Stark colors:

1. Birth of Jon - smoke from burned Tower of Joy, and salt - tears of dying Lyanna.

2. Birth of Dany at Dragonstone - salt is sea water, and smoke could be mist/fog/haze (natural femomenon, not smoke from fire).

I think that it's a possible option, and that after Dany's birth or during her birth, there was a mist above the sea. And that's the reason why entire fleet of Targaryens was destroyed - there was not only a big storm, but also a mist above water, and people on those ships didn't saw, that the ships are getting close to each other, and thus they all crushed together, or crushed on the sea rocks. Or that there was mist after the storm, during which Dany was born, and thanks to that mist, Willem Darry was able to escape from fleet of Baratheons, taking Dany and Viserys to Essos.

3. Dany becoming Mother of dragons - salt is her tears, and smoke is from Drogo's funeral pyre. Or salt is blood. Dany's "blood" Rhaego. Or blood of horse, that was killed and put on the bottom of funeral pyre (not Drogo's stallion, the other horse), in blood magic ritual, after which the dragon eggs hatched. 

4. Rhaego's birth - smoke and salt are actually fire and blood.

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She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash.

She also saw him in her vision in the House of Undying, and there was also fire and blood there:

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Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . .

Or salt and smoke amidst which Rhaego, the Prince that was promised, was born is this:

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She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

“…want to wake the dragon…”

So all three of them (Jon, Dany and Rhaego) were born amidst salt and smoke, and thus they are three heads of the dragon. In addition to this, Jon is Azor Ahai, Dany is Nissa Nissa, and Rhaego is the Prince that was promised.

[Ygrain]

8 minutes ago, Megorova said:

It's the same roses that Rhaegar gave to Lyanna at Harrenhal.

I am an ardent proponent of this theory, but I wouldn't dare to claim that with such certainty.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I am an ardent proponent of this theory, but I wouldn't dare to claim that with such certainty.

I'm also not 100% sure/definite about this theory. Not certain at all. I just think that it's a viable possibility.

Though the problem is, is that English isn't my native language. It's my fourth, and I'm still in the process of learning it. So I don't know yet, how to convey my thoughts/ideas/theories/speculations/assumptions, in the way for them not to be read, as if though I mean that those are facts. I'm unable yet to write in different undertones/shades of meaning. Some people here even got offended by (what they thought was) my too so-sure-of-myself snobbish style of writing. Though they misunderstood me, my intentions were totally different.

Theories that I wrote in my previous post, look like a lists of facts, doesn't they? Oh well, eventually I'll get better at properly conveying my intentions in English language. Probably

[J. Stargaryen]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I am an ardent proponent of this theory, but I wouldn't dare to claim that with such certainty.

I'm not sure if it necessarily matters whether they're the same roses Rhaegar gave her at HH, though they might well be. I think what's important is that there are roses connected to her birthing bed. Since Rhaegar is the only person we know of in the story who gave her roses, that information points directly at Rhaegar as the father of Lyanna's child.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Given the discussion on what snow might mean to someone living on the edge of the Summer Sea...

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"Wed Hizdahr zo Loraq and make a son with him, a son whose father is the harpy, whose mother is the dragon. In him the prophecies shall be fulfilled, AND YOUR ENEMIES WILL MELT AWAY LIKE SNOW." (Empasis added.)

To what prophecy do you suppose the Green Grace was referring? 

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I'm not sure if it necessarily matters whether they're the same roses Rhaegar gave her at HH, though they might well be. I think what's important is that there are roses connected to her birthing bed. Since Rhaegar is the only person we know of in the story who gave her roses, that information points directly at Rhaegar as the father of Lyanna's child.

If it were really the same roses Lyanna's weird factor would go off the spectrum. I mean, how obsessed/mad would you have to be to desperately cling to some flowers who must have begun look dead and horrible months ago?

Those flowers may be special winter roses, growing in cold and snow, but there is no indication that those are 'magical flowers' in the sense that they continue to look fresh and alive after they are ripped from the ground?

There is a possibility that Lyanna kept that rose crown as a token back at Harrenhal but it would be awfully convenient if she dragged them along wherever she went afterwards, keeping them even after they began to look shitty.

One would have less respect of both the character and the author if he tried to sell us stuff like that.

[Ygrain]

12 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I'm not sure if it necessarily matters whether they're the same roses Rhaegar gave her at HH, though they might well be. I think what's important is that there are roses connected to her birthing bed. Since Rhaegar is the only person we know of in the story who gave her roses, that information points directly at Rhaegar as the father of Lyanna's child.

Of that I am 100% sure :-)

[Alexis-something-Rose]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If it were really the same roses Lyanna's weird factor would go off the spectrum. I mean, how obsessed/mad would you have to be to desperately cling to some flowers who must have begun look dead and horrible months ago?

Those flowers may be special winter roses, growing in cold and snow, but there is no indication that those are 'magical flowers' in the sense that they continue to look fresh and alive after they are ripped from the ground?

There is a possibility that Lyanna kept that rose crown as a token back at Harrenhal but it would be awfully convenient if she dragged them along wherever she went afterwards, keeping them even after they began to look shitty.

One would have less respect of both the character and the author if he tried to sell us stuff like that.

I kept my bouquet from my wedding. It's going on eight years and those flowers do not look shitty. The color has changed, certainly, and the petals have dried, but everything has held its shape. 

If the flowers in the tower are the same that were given her at Harrenhal and she took them with her, then she wasn't planning on returning to Winterfell or going to Storm's End, or whatever the plans were for her. And people tend to keep things that meant something to them, even flowers.

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I kept my bouquet from my wedding. It's going on eight years and those flowers do not look shitty. The color has changed, certainly, and the petals have dried, but everything has held its shape. 

Well, I guess you put it somewhere where it could dry properly, right? Do we assume Lyanna could keep her flowery crown dry and well-preserved at Harrenhal, wherever she went afterwards, during her journey across Westeros with Rhaegar, and the stay at that watchtower?

We could, but it would stretch credibility. Still, it is the kind of symbolism George might want to use. But then, with winter coming back with a vengeance after the False Spring they could have found some additional winter roses later on.

4 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

If the flowers in the tower are the same that were given her at Harrenhal and she took them with her, then she wasn't planning on returning to Winterfell or going to Storm's End, or whatever the plans were for her. And people tend to keep things that meant something to them, even flowers.

Even she kept the flowers they certainly could have some meaning for her - but they could also be a memory of a love that was not to be, or the memory of love that was over.

Bonifer Hasty and Rhaella could also have tokens of each other, yet this doesn't have to mean they ever had a true romance/affair. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I guess you put it somewhere where it could dry properly, right?

I didn't do anything to it. I stuck it in my old dresser and left it there. I don't even know how it didn't turn into a mess.

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We could, but it would stretch credibility. Still, it is the kind of symbolism George might want to use. But then, with winter coming back with a vengeance after the False Spring they could have found some additional winter roses later on.

That is certainly possible. I'm not fixed on how rare the winter roses are and if they can grow everywhere during the winter. 

Since we're talking about winter. Would the Battle of the Trident been fought during the winter or at the tale end of winter?

[Ygrain]

46 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I didn't do anything to it. I stuck it in my old dresser and left it there. I don't even know how it didn't turn into a mess.

Roses generally don't. If you keep them in water, where they may sort of end their life cycle and lose petals, it can happen, though mostly with bramblers or other garden roses. Roses grown for bouquets generally don't lose petals but they bent at the soft part of the stem just under the blossom. If you hang them somewhere - next to anywhere - in the flat upside down, they dry out and hold shape. I had a couple for at least a decade, and they were still clearly recognisable as roses, not falling apart, and you could still tell which had been red and which pink or yellow, though the colours have faded.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

I didn't do anything to it. I stuck it in my old dresser and left it there. I don't even know how it didn't turn into a mess.

Well, you would have kept it dry and away from moisture, no? I guess putting it in a chest in a well-heated room in Harrenhal or Winterfell could also have preserved it. But there are no well-heated rooms on horseback when you are crossing the continent of Westeros, no?

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

That is certainly possible. I'm not fixed on how rare the winter roses are and if they can grow everywhere during the winter.

We know some are grown at Winterfell, but since they had some at Harrenhal, too, one assumes they can be found everywhere - or at least at many places - in winter.

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Since we're talking about winter. Would the Battle of the Trident been fought during the winter or at the tale end of winter?

We have no idea, as far as I recall. We know Rhaegar left Dragonstone while KL was still very much in the grip of winter.

When spring really began is completely unclear at this point, but I guess there is a chance that the beginning of the war was still in the last months of winter - or at least in snowy spring months, at least in some regions of Westeros.

But it might be that spring was already there when the Rebellion began. We have no clue how much time passed between Rhaegar leaving Dragonstone, the abduction, and the beginning of the war. It was likely a couple of months.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

17 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Roses generally don't. If you keep them in water, where they may sort of end their life cycle and lose petals, it can happen, though mostly with bramblers or other garden roses. Roses grown for bouquets generally don't lose petals but they bent at the soft part of the stem just under the blossom. If you hang them somewhere - next to anywhere - in the flat upside down, they dry out and hold shape. I had a couple for at least a decade, and they were still clearly recognisable as roses, not falling apart, and you could still tell which had been red and which pink or yellow, though the colours have faded.

They also hold the scent. If anything, I find that the scent is actually stronger, years later. I'm assuming it's because they decayed some and like anything that's dead, they'll smell stronger.

Ned reflecting on the room that smelled of blood and roses makes sense to me. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

They also hold the scent. If anything, I find that the scent is actually stronger, years later. I'm assuming it's because they decayed some and like anything that's dead, they'll smell stronger.

Ned reflecting on the room that smelled of blood and roses makes sense to me. 

I never noticed the smell as the roses sold in shops are mostly lacking :-(

But if I'm not mistaken, rose petals are used in potpourri, so it makes sense that they retain the scent.

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

They also hold the scent. If anything, I find that the scent is actually stronger, years later. I'm assuming it's because they decayed some and like anything that's dead, they'll smell stronger.

That is interesting because something similar happened to me as well. I have two beautiful containers that my sister (a professional florist) used to make a table arrangement for Thanksgiving about 3 Thanksgivings ago. She is much better with flowers than I am and the arrangements are still here (on my mantle now). They just sorta air dried, I guess. I did nothing to them besides occasionally use a swiffer to keep them dust free. The colors all changed, got deeper on most varieties, but other than that, they are a nice set of artfully arranged dried flowers. And yeah, for a while they had a strong floral smell, but then that passed. The smell was never offensive so I just waited until it passed.

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Ned reflecting on the room that smelled of blood and roses makes sense to me. 

I read a lot of your posts and I like how you pull your ideas together. Another thing is, this is George's work of fiction and he makes the rules (but I am sure you have figured this out) . Whether those were the actual roses Lyanna was given at Harrenhal or not, the blue roses are linked with Lyanna.

And our favorite author has broken flower rules before in his story Bitterblooms, which is a story about an Arya/Lyanna type of girl who is from Carinhall, and has a deep wintertime "adventure" with a crazy person (Melisandre in ASOIAF) who...

Spoiler

keeps her locked away for a year, only for this girl, Shawn, to escape and go back home. The travel home takes about 2-3 weeks through heavy, deep winter. However, before Shawn leaves this Morgan woman, she has blue winter flowers woven in to her hair (the Bitterblooms), And these blue winter flowers are not native to this area. No, they come from an entirely different planet called Ymir. So Shawn dresses herself once again to go out in to the harsh winter and she wears two cloaks and a full leather face mask and travels for about 2-3 weeks to get back home. No one believes where she has been when she first returns, until she pulls those same blue flowers from her hair and shows a "handful" of them. Now, under "normal" circumstances, those flowers would have been crushed and fallen away under all those clothing layers and them in her hair. But in this story they do not because they serve a literary purpose.

So yeah, GRRM makes his own rules 

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, I guess you put it somewhere where it could dry properly, right? Do we assume Lyanna could keep her flowery crown dry and well-preserved at Harrenhal, wherever she went afterwards, during her journey across Westeros with Rhaegar, and the stay at that watchtower?

It was popular in medieval times, and even in 19 centuary, for girls to dry some special flowers, that were given to them on special occasions, and to keep them as a token. For example first flower, that was given to girl from her fiance, or flowers from her wedding bouquet, etc. To preserve flowers or leaves from withering or rotting, you just need to put them inside a book, put some weight on it (something heavy, for example a few more books), and leave it there for a few weeks. All moisture will evaporise, and they won't be decaying. Afterwards they will look nearly as bright as they were, when they were alive, and they even will have good smell. Aside from compression method, there are others, with which flowers can be dried, even with retaining their three-dimensional shape. And it isn't hard to preserve dried flowers, just keep them away from water, and they can last unchanged for decades.

So could be that Lyanna put those roses in a book, while she was still in Harrenhal. And afterwards they were easily transported anywhere.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

It was popular in medieval times, and even in 19 centuary, for girls to dry some special flowers, that were given to them on special occasions, and to keep them as a token. For example first flower, that was given to girl from her fiance, or flowers from her wedding bouquet, etc. To preserve flowers or leaves from withering or rotting, you just need to put them inside a book, put some weight on it (something heavy, for example a few more books), and leave it there for a few weeks. All moisture will evaporise, and they won't be decaying. Afterwards they will look nearly as bright as they were, when they were alive, and they even will have good smell. Aside from compression method, there are others, with which flowers can be dried, even with retaining their three-dimensional shape. And it isn't hard to preserve dried flowers, just keep them away from water, and they can last unchanged for decades.

I know all that, but that isn't the point.

The point is that Lyanna and Rhaegar were traveling the country, and they are not likely to have used a water-proof carriage or wheelhouse to move their stuff around. Even if Lyanna had preserved her flowery crown professionally - they were on the road for weeks or even months.

They would have ridden horses, and their servants and retainers - if any aside from Rhaegar's buddies accompanied them - would have carried their stuff.

Everything would have gotten messy, moist, and wet.

7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

They also hold the scent. If anything, I find that the scent is actually stronger, years later. I'm assuming it's because they decayed some and like anything that's dead, they'll smell stronger.

If we are talking about real flowers - and we should not, because we are talking about literature here - then this doesn't make a lot of sense. Pollen are pretty much indestructible but I've no idea what exactly makes flowers smell. Chances are that the smell is preserved well if the whole thing is preserved well, just as it is with mummies. If nature takes its course it is not going to smell well for long.

George could go with Lyanna preserving a bunch of dead flowers - of Rhaegar could have continued to give her fresh flowers each day at the tower, etc. Then she would have had some of the flowers he last gave her on her deathbed. Dead flowers for a dead love. Rotting flowers for a rotting corpse.

After all, things did not end well.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If we are talking about real flowers - and we should not, because we are talking about literature here - then this doesn't make a lot of sense. Pollen are pretty much indestructible but I've no idea what exactly makes flowers smell. Chances are that the smell is preserved well if the whole thing is preserved well, just as it is with mummies. If nature takes its course it is not going to smell well for long.

Dude, I'm not a florist, I know diddly squat about flowers or plants. I'm good at killing plants and can't manage to keep a cactus alive. I was just talking about my personal experience with dried flowers. If GRRM wants that crown to smell for a million years, then that's what will happen.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Dude, I'm not a florist, I know diddly squat about flowers or plants. I'm good at killing plants and can't manage to keep a cactus alive. I was just talking about my personal experience with dried flowers. If GRRM wants that crown to smell for a million years, then that's what will happen.

I know. That's why I tried to point out that making comparisons to real flowers is pretty much pointless ;-). Or only somewhat sensible when we have reason to believe that George cares about real flowers and models his fantasy flowers on real flowers.