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R+L=J v.165


Ygrain

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, you would have kept it dry and away from moisture, no? I guess putting it in a chest in a well-heated room in Harrenhal or Winterfell could also have preserved it. But there are no well-heated rooms on horseback when you are crossing the continent of Westeros, no?

Their entire family traveled to Harrenhal, for tournament and the feast, so they brought with them lots of stuff, and clothes, and chests in which those clothes were stored. So most likely they had a carriage for all that luggage. So Lyanna took those roses, put them in a book, and then on a bottom of a chest, where it was kept warm and safe, amongst her other possessions. And from where could she have taken a book, in a middle of tournament, is also simple. She could have used The Seven-Pointed Star. At tournament there was probably many septons and septas, and at least some of them (if not all) had one with them.

Quote

We know some are grown at Winterfell, but since they had some at Harrenhal, too, one assumes they can be found everywhere - or at least at many places - in winter.

I think that blue winter roses grow only at Winterfell. It's a special sort, that can grow only there. And that's from where Rhaegar got them, to be delivered to Harrenhal, for Lyanna's crown.

I think that Rhaegar, found out that Lyanna was a Knight of the Laughing Tree. So after her withdrawal from tournament, he decided that he will become a champion, and will crown her also as a winner/queen of tournament. He wanted to make a special crown, something symbolic, just for her. And thus he sent a message, with his request to Winterfell. And from there were sent back dozens of ravens, each carrying one blue rose. Gesture like that, is so chivalrous and romantic, that even she-wolf like Lyanna, would have been moved by it :wub:

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The point is that Lyanna and Rhaegar were traveling the country, and they are not likely to have used a water-proof carriage or wheelhouse to move their stuff around. Even if Lyanna had preserved her flowery crown professionally - they were on the road for weeks or even months.

They would have ridden horses, and their servants and retainers - if any aside from Rhaegar's buddies accompanied them - would have carried their stuff.

Everything would have gotten messy, moist, and wet.

In real world many religios people, now and even in the past, like in medieval times, traveled with the Bible, wherever they went. The Seven-Pointed Star is ASOIAF version of Bible. So this book of Lyanna, was treated with care, and thus the roses in it, also got intact even thru long and tedious travels.

It's just seems more likely that Lyanna already had those roses, when she and Rhaegar arrived to Dorne, than the possibility, that she got them from somewhere in the middle of a Dornish Marches.

And it also makes more sense, that Lyanna was in her final moments clinging to those withered flowers, because they had a special significance to her. It was first present that Rhaegar even gave her. And after he left Tower of Joy, went to war and died, it was the only thing left of him, that Lyanna still had.

Thus if those roses in her dying place, were not Those roses (from crown given to her by Rhaegar), and just some other roses, that she got while she was staying in the Tower of Joy, then it doesn't make any sense for her to cling to them. Why would she cling to just some random flowers?

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@Megorova

Sorry, you have no reason to believe that blue winter roses grow only at Winterfell. Nor do we have any reason to believe that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna with some special roses - he would have just used the flowery crown Lord Whent had prepared for the victor of his tourney. This wasn't some super special and meaningful act in and of itself - it would have been the ritual marking the end of the jousting. It only got somewhat queer when Rhaegar chose to crown the wrong woman.

As to the idea of Rhaegar ordering roses from Winterfell: It is logistically impossible for such roses to arrive in time during the duration of the tourney.

As to the books: You do know that the Starks keep the old gods, right? There is no reason to believe that Lyanna Stark owned a copy of the Seven-pointed Star (or any Faith holy book) nor is there a reason to believe she would have cared about that if she had owned a copy.

Lyanna putting the roses - who were likely weaved into a crown - into a book also makes little sense to me, considering that they would only have been feasible if she destroyed the crown as such. And that is not very likely if she cherished it. If she kept the roses, she would have kept the rose crown.

As to the roses in the tower:

Those would have been roses Rhaegar gave to her, too. Perhaps as a farewell present, trying to invoke or reference happier and more peaceful time? - when he left her to die in war. I'm not suggesting she had roses with her when she died which were meaningless to her. That wouldn't make any sense.

But winter roses she may have found close to the tower - or the Kingsguard protecting her - could also have symbolized Rhaegar and their love without them actually coming from Rhaegar.

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5 hours ago, Megorova said:

Why would she cling to just some random flowers?

They may also have been gifted by Rhaegar, as a remembrance fo the crown. - Which, by the way, would have been kept as a whole, so there's really no way Lyanna could have put it in a book. Air-drying it would work just fine because we're not in tropical climate where things rot sort of by themselves (not to mention that winter hits back quite soon).

Also, Lord Varys apparently never heard about things like waxed travel bags and small chests which can be fit in for travelling on horse back. Not to mention all those dry old plants in my garden which I regularly fail to cut in the autumn but come spring, they are still not a rotten mess. Dried vegetation is actually pretty resistant.

 

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Cute topic.

Just for the record, I also have my wedding bouquet of roses - dry and still beautiful. :D

As for travelling in Westeros with your stuff, well, Tyrion borrowed a book from the library of Winterfell, took it all the way to the Wall (apparently, there were no inns for quite a while), then took it back to Winterfell, and it's never mentioned that the book was a mess at any point during those journeys. If GRRM wants to preserve those roses for a year, he can do it, and if he wants them to be carried around all over Westeros, then to Essos and back, still keeping their shape and fragrance, he can do that, too.   

That said, a teenage girl may cherish even the totally spoilt and rotten remains of something she received from her lost, great love. 

And having said all that, I don't think the flowers absolutely need to be the flowers of Lyanna's crown in order to have their symbolic significance as the connection between Lyanna and Rhaegar. Frankly, the connection will work for me even if we find out that Lyanna herself sent Arthur Dayne to the nearest florist just round the Red Mountain to fetch her some more winter roses long after Rhaegar was gone, because the flowers would still symbolize Rhaegar for her. It will also work for me if we find out that the blackened rose petals in Lyanna's hand were only present in Ned's fever dream, because they still have their symbolic value, where information for the reader is conveyed through an image rather than through words. 

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1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

And having said all that, I don't think the flowers absolutely need to be the flowers of Lyanna's crown in order to have their symbolic significance as the connection between Lyanna and Rhaegar.

True enough. It's just that the presence of the crown would mean that her elopement with Rhaegar was pre-planned because, crush or not, a dried flower crown is not something that one carries along the whole time.

1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

It will also work for me if we find out that the blackened rose petals in Lyanna's hand were only present in Ned's fever dream, 

That was in his memory, not the dream, so she was indeed holding some roses on her deathbed.

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3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

True enough. It's just that the presence of the crown would mean that her elopement with Rhaegar was pre-planned because, crush or not, a dried flower crown is not something that one carries along the whole time.

That's a good point. I concentrated exclusively on the symbolic aspects, and I didn't look at the question from this angle. There is no way to tell it for sure at the moment though. On my own, I'd probably think it is the crown, because it seems to make sense, but when I start thinking about it, I realize the scene can work even if those petals come from a different flower. On the other hand, we can be sure at least that we aren't meant to think of fresh flowers. Maybe this question will be left open for ever. 

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That was in his memory, not the dream, so she was indeed holding some roses on her deathbed.

Oh, I see, thanks. 

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

As to the idea of Rhaegar ordering roses from Winterfell: It is logistically impossible for such roses to arrive in time during the duration of the tourney.

If Rhaegar wanted to make for Lyanna a custom-made crown with blue winter roses, then in given timeframe, he could have got those roses delivered to Harrenhall twice. There was enough time even for two round trips.

Info that proves this possibility (based on data from real world, such as speed and endurance of birds, and weight of roses):

Spoiler

Tournament lasted 10 days. On first day was the feast. On second day the beginning of jousting. On third day the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated three other knights. By the morning of fourth day the Knight was gone, and his shield was found in a tree.

I think that Rhaegar realised who was the Mystery Knight, on third day, and it was him who warned Lyanna (probably thru Ashara Dayne), that Aerys ordered to unmask the Knight on the next day. That's why she didn't returned. Otherwise it's possible that she could have won in the tournament. So he thought what he can do for her. This was on day four.

And thus on day five he has sent Ashara to investigate. She couldn't ask Lyanna directy, what does she like, so she went to Ned. Because amongst Lyanna's brothers he was the easies to approach. Benjen was still just a kid. Brandon was a Wild Wolf. While Ned was the Quiet Wolf. Furthermore just two days ago she was dancing with him. So she approached him, under pretence of just wanting to get to know him. And while talking with him, asked him about his family, and among other questions asked him about Lyanna. And Ned mentioned to her, that Lyanna is very fond of blue roses, that grow in Winterfell. Mission accomplished.

So on day sixth Rhaegar has sent raven with his request to Winterfell.

Distance between Winterfell and Harrenhal is aproximately 1330 miles. In ASOIAF books it was mentioned that ravens are faster than pigeons, and have higher endurance. Info about real world birds (mostly about pigeons), with links below it:

Quote

"Scientists have found that migrating birds can fly for 200 days straight, eating and sleeping while soaring through the sky."

"Long flights aren’t unheard of among birds: Sea birds, for example, may fly for days at a time while searching for food."

"The longest homing pigeon flight ever recorded was 7,200 miles, from Arras, France, to Saigon, Vietnam. The flight took 24 days."

"Racing Homing Pigeons have been clocked flying 92.5 mph average speed on a 400 mile race."

"Homing pigeons often fly up to 500 miles in a day, reaching speeds of 50 mph."

"Homing Pigeons have been known to fly 700 miles in a day."

"The pigeon beats its wings up to ten times per second, while maintaining a heart rate of 600 beats per minute up to 16 hours without rest."

" In 1903 Julius Neubronner, an apothecary in the German town of Kronberg near Frankfurt, resumed a practice begun by his father half a century earlier and received prescriptions from a sanatorium in nearby Falkenstein via pigeon post. (The pigeon post was discontinued after three years when the sanatorium was closed.) He delivered urgent medications up to 75 grams (2.6 oz) by the same method"

"Using wooden camera models which weighed 30 to 75 grams (1.1 to 2.6 oz), the pigeons were carefully trained for their load.[8] To take an aerial photograph, Neubronner carried a pigeon to a location up to about 100 kilometres (60 mi) from its home, where it was equipped with a camera and released.[9] The bird, keen to be relieved of its burden, would typically fly home on a direct route, at a height of 50 to 100 metres (160 to 330 ft)"

http://www.conservationmagazine.org/2013/10/birds-fly-for-six-months-nonstop/

http://www.fbipigeons.com/PIGEON FACTS.htm

http://www.montana.edu/cpa/news/wwwpb-archives/yuth/pigeon.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeon_photography

So lets see how fast and how long a raven can fly (based on information that we have about pigeons). For example if raven from Harrenhal flew nonstop for 24 hours, to get to Winterfell in one day, then the speed should be 55.5 mph (1330/24). If pigeons can fly 400 miles with speed of 92.5 mph, and fly without rest for 16 hours, then ravens obviously can fly even longer and faster than that. So to fly 24 hours with a speed of 55.5 mph, is a task possible to accomplish.

So on day seventh of Tournament, Rhaegar's message arrived to Winterfell. And servants there prepared roses for delivery.

On the way to Harrenhal, ravens will be flying with cargo, thus their speed will be slower. Lets say 25 mph. Though realistically how much a single flower can slow down birds fly? Not much, because it doesn't weight much. And real world pigeons were able to carry for 60 miles cargo that weighted 75 grams. For making a crown, stems are unneeded, because they have thorns. Who would make a thorny crown for a queen? Thus they sent with ravens only flower heads, placed inside small bags attached to raven's leg. One flower per bird.

Here's a bit of information about weight of roses:

https://www.petalgarden.com/rose-petals-info.htm

"A rose typically contains 20 to 40 petals, depending on the variety, so one rose can yield 1 to 2 cups of petals. We do not use all of the petals from a rose for our Premium and Specialty petals as many of the outer guard petals, small center petals, and other petals with imperfections go into our imperfect Pathway containers. Therefore, it typically takes 20 to 25 roses to make one ounce or 16 cups of freeze dried rose petals."

The petals of 20-25 freeze dried roses weight 1 ounce, or 28.35 grams. Petals of one freeze dried rose weight 1.134-1.4175 grams. Lets take 1.5 grams as weight of dried petals from one rose. But that's dry petals. Raw/fresh petals probably can weight 2-3 times over that. So fresh petals of one rose will weight a bit less than 5 grams. And aside from petals roses also have other parts - hip, ovary, sepal, filament, anther, stigma, style. Even if the whole rose is 5 times heavier than its petals alone, then still the whole flower head will weight aproximately 25 grams.

If real world pigeon can carry 75 grams for 60 miles, then ravens from fantasy world are also able to carry for 1330 miles a cargo weighing 25 grams. I included into this theory double decrease in speed of ravens that carry cargo (25 mph), compared with speed of ravens without cargo (50 mph).

And those flowers will arrive intact, to the place of destination. Because even in real world, cut flowers are delivered to other countries, and still look fresh and beautiful upon arrival. Ravens are smart, so they won't be pecking those roses, and the bags will protect flowers from wind and moisture.

If ravens with roses were sent to Harrenhal on day seventh, and flew with speed of 25 mph (1330/25 = 53.2 hours), then they will arrive there on day ninth of tournament.

Thus if Rhaegar has sent his message on morning of day sixth, then by the middle of day nine (with additional few hours for servants at Winterfell to arrange a flower delivery, and a few hours for the birds to rest, while they will be flying to Harrenhal with their cargo), he will get his flowers on time. And then the craftsmen will have half of a day more, to add real living flowers into golden laurel, with which the queen was supposed to be crowned. 

Furthermore a delivery like that, could have been arranged even faster. If Rhaegar knew about Knight's identity from day three, and asked Ashara to find out what Lyanna likes, then he could have sent his request on morning of day fourth. And thus get his flowers by morning of day seventh. If some flowers were damaged, or only a few ravens made it to Harrenhal, then he could have sent another raven with request to send more flowers. If the second raven departed from Harrenhal on morning of day seventh, then second batch of flowers will arrive on morning of day ten. It's unlikely that they did the crowning in first part of the day, most likely it was done at least after noon. So the craftsmen had enough time to make a fresh crown, even from second batch of roses.

I'm not nitpicking, I'm just saying that it is possible.

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While possibly possible, it reminds of swallows transporting coconuts way too much for my liking.

If the winter roses are the most expensive flower to be had, then we can reasonably expect that 1) they can be grown in the gardens/glasshouses of the mighty for prestige reasons (we are never told that they grow solely at Winterfell), and that 2) at such a lavish event, Lord Whent would have wanted the best to show off with, even if they had to be transported from the North. It makes way more sense that the roses had been arranged beforehands, and that the crown being from frost-blue roses, that could be perceived as symbolizing a Stark daughter even without the knowledge of Bael the Bard, was one more factor prompting Rhaegar into his inspired victory - the winter roses were like Lyanna, so the crown should go to her.

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On 6.2.2018 at 10:23 PM, Megorova said:

If Rhaegar wanted to make for Lyanna a custom-made crown with blue winter roses, then in given timeframe, he could have got those roses delivered to Harrenhall twice. There was enough time even for two round trips.

Info that proves this possibility (based on data from real world, such as speed and endurance of birds, and weight of roses):

  Reveal hidden contents

Tournament lasted 10 days. On first day was the feast. On second day the beginning of jousting. On third day the Knight of the Laughing Tree defeated three other knights. By the morning of fourth day the Knight was gone, and his shield was found in a tree.

I think that Rhaegar realised who was the Mystery Knight, on third day, and it was him who warned Lyanna (probably thru Ashara Dayne), that Aerys ordered to unmask the Knight on the next day. That's why she didn't returned. Otherwise it's possible that she could have won in the tournament. So he thought what he can do for her. This was on day four.

And thus on day five he has sent Ashara to investigate. She couldn't ask Lyanna directy, what does she like, so she went to Ned. Because amongst Lyanna's brothers he was the easies to approach. Benjen was still just a kid. Brandon was a Wild Wolf. While Ned was the Quiet Wolf. Furthermore just two days ago she was dancing with him. So she approached him, under pretence of just wanting to get to know him. And while talking with him, asked him about his family, and among other questions asked him about Lyanna. And Ned mentioned to her, that Lyanna is very fond of blue roses, that grow in Winterfell. Mission accomplished.

So on day sixth Rhaegar has sent raven with his request to Winterfell.

Distance between Winterfell and Harrenhal is aproximately 1330 miles. In ASOIAF books it was mentioned that ravens are faster than pigeons, and have higher endurance. Info about real world birds (mostly about pigeons), with links below it:

So lets see how fast and how long a raven can fly (based on information that we have about pigeons). For example if raven from Harrenhal flew nonstop for 24 hours, to get to Winterfell in one day, then the speed should be 55.5 mph (1330/24). If pigeons can fly 400 miles with speed of 92.5 mph, and fly without rest for 16 hours, then ravens obviously can fly even longer and faster than that. So to fly 24 hours with a speed of 55.5 mph, is a task possible to accomplish.

So on day seventh of Tournament, Rhaegar's message arrived to Winterfell. And servants there prepared roses for delivery.

On the way to Harrenhal, ravens will be flying with cargo, thus their speed will be slower. Lets say 25 mph. Though realistically how much a single flower can slow down birds fly? Not much, because it doesn't weight much. And real world pigeons were able to carry for 60 miles cargo that weighted 75 grams. For making a crown, stems are unneeded, because they have thorns. Who would make a thorny crown for a queen? Thus they sent with ravens only flower heads, placed inside small bags attached to raven's leg. One flower per bird.

Here's a bit of information about weight of roses:

https://www.petalgarden.com/rose-petals-info.htm

"A rose typically contains 20 to 40 petals, depending on the variety, so one rose can yield 1 to 2 cups of petals. We do not use all of the petals from a rose for our Premium and Specialty petals as many of the outer guard petals, small center petals, and other petals with imperfections go into our imperfect Pathway containers. Therefore, it typically takes 20 to 25 roses to make one ounce or 16 cups of freeze dried rose petals."

The petals of 20-25 freeze dried roses weight 1 ounce, or 28.35 grams. Petals of one freeze dried rose weight 1.134-1.4175 grams. Lets take 1.5 grams as weight of dried petals from one rose. But that's dry petals. Raw/fresh petals probably can weight 2-3 times over that. So fresh petals of one rose will weight a bit less than 5 grams. And aside from petals roses also have other parts - hip, ovary, sepal, filament, anther, stigma, style. Even if the whole rose is 5 times heavier than its petals alone, then still the whole flower head will weight aproximately 25 grams.

If real world pigeon can carry 75 grams for 60 miles, then ravens from fantasy world are also able to carry for 1330 miles a cargo weighing 25 grams. I included into this theory double decrease in speed of ravens that carry cargo (25 mph), compared with speed of ravens without cargo (50 mph).

And those flowers will arrive intact, to the place of destination. Because even in real world, cut flowers are delivered to other countries, and still look fresh and beautiful upon arrival. Ravens are smart, so they won't be pecking those roses, and the bags will protect flowers from wind and moisture.

If ravens with roses were sent to Harrenhal on day seventh, and flew with speed of 25 mph (1330/25 = 53.2 hours), then they will arrive there on day ninth of tournament.

Thus if Rhaegar has sent his message on morning of day sixth, then by the middle of day nine (with additional few hours for servants at Winterfell to arrange a flower delivery, and a few hours for the birds to rest, while they will be flying to Harrenhal with their cargo), he will get his flowers on time. And then the craftsmen will have half of a day more, to add real living flowers into golden laurel, with which the queen was supposed to be crowned. 

Furthermore a delivery like that, could have been arranged even faster. If Rhaegar knew about Knight's identity from day three, and asked Ashara to find out what Lyanna likes, then he could have sent his request on morning of day fourth. And thus get his flowers by morning of day seventh. If some flowers were damaged, or only a few ravens made it to Harrenhal, then he could have sent another raven with request to send more flowers. If the second raven departed from Harrenhal on morning of day seventh, then second batch of flowers will arrive on morning of day ten. It's unlikely that they did the crowning in first part of the day, most likely it was done at least after noon. So the craftsmen had enough time to make a fresh crown, even from second batch of roses.

I'm not nitpicking, I'm just saying that it is possible.

Sorry, as of yet we have no precedent that ravens are used to carry any cargo, not even light cargo. They only deliver letters as far as we know.

There is also pretty much no indication that the Starks (or the maester of Winterfell) act as some sort of rose traders. I mean, sure, if the Prince of Dragonstone was asking for stuff people would likely react not exactly in an unfriendly manner, but it is very difficult to imagine that they would drop everything and attach some roses to a raven as quickly as possible.

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On 06/02/2018 at 1:08 AM, Lord Varys said:

orry, you have no reason to believe that blue winter roses grow only at Winterfell. Nor do we have any reason to believe that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna with some special roses - he would have just used the flowery crown Lord Whent had prepared for the victor of his tourney. This wasn't some super special and meaningful act in and of itself - it would have been the ritual marking the end of the jousting. It only got somewhat queer when Rhaegar chose to crown the wrong woman.

   

   Are you saying that blue winter roses  are not rare? As far as I know they are rare and do exist at the North. Also it is known that Lyanna Stark loved this kind of flowers. It is known as a Winter Rose. That usually exist where it is very cold and/or snow around. It is therefore a coincidence Prince Rhaegar gave to Lyanna her favorite flowers?

   I do not know if Lyanna was or not the Mysterious Tree Knight but I do know those winter Roses are found in very cold places, that Lyanna loved them and that the Prince gave it to her after he became the Tournament’s champion. Also that Ned Stark never told his children about the tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Why not? Because of Reed, because of his sister?

      And yes it was a very meaningful act to give those roses to Lyanna Stark. It showed all that he was, at least, fond of her; which in itself is very meaningful because they knew that she was Robert’s fiancée.

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2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Ned does say that she had always loved the scent of winter roses. I guess she would have loved the flowers before Rhaegar ever gave her the crown. 

Not quite true. Ned thinks:

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. - AGoT, Eddard XV

Not only nothing about "always," but this comes up immediately after Ned recalls the crowning at HH. In other words, Ned thinks that Lyanna loved the scent of winter roses after he thinks about Rhaegar crowning her. 

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9 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Not quite true. Ned thinks:

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses. - AGoT, Eddard XV

Not only nothing about "always," but this comes up immediately after Ned recalls the crowning at HH. In other words, Ned thinks that Lyanna loved the scent of winter roses after he thinks about Rhaegar crowning her. 

Touché. 

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44 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

No, I think your interpretation is a valid inference based on a liberal understanding of what the writer expected to convey. It is at least debatable, I think. 

Yes, it's a valid inference, but is it correct? The question is certainly worth asking, which was my point. Further, while GRRM may have intended for the audience to understand at that point and time that Lyanna always loved the scent of winter roses, that may not be the ultimate truth. What the text says is that she loved the scent of winter roses. It says so right after we learn that Rhaegar gave her winter roses. I'm suspicious of that coincidence.

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

No, I think your interpretation is a valid inference based on a liberal understanding of what the writer expected to convey. It is at least debatable, I think. 

It's more about the word "always" than anything else, really. I read the quote before posting, and still came out with the word "always" even though it wasn't there. Lyanna was fond of flowers as Ned says, so I imagine winter roses would be part of the flowers.

That said, I was thinking about Harrenhal and how Rhaegar's plotting came to a screeching halt when Aerys showed up. Wouldn't Brandon and Catelyn's wedding offer Rhaegar the same opportunity that he lost out on at Harrenhal? Maybe he was riding for Riverrun when his and Lyanna's path crossed.

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Lyanna wasn't a conventional girl. I doubt she grew up loving (the scent of) flowers, be they winter roses or not. She wouldn't even have seen that many winters in her life, dying at the age of sixteen.

The smells dominating Lyanna's life would have been horse (she was a skilled and passionate rider), leather and sweat (when she was beating up Benjen in the godswood), and things along those lines.

Lyanna is a dialed-up version of Arya, a spoiled Arya, a girl who always did what she wanted, and wasn't taking shit from anyone.

It makes more sense to assume she connected with the winter roses for a reason, not just because they were beautiful. And if she had a thing for the gloomy singing prince, getting the winter rose crown from her would have made an impact on her.

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23 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Yes, it's a valid inference, but is it correct? The question is certainly worth asking, which was my point. Further, while GRRM may have intended for the audience to understand at that point and time that Lyanna always loved the scent of winter roses, that may not be the ultimate truth. What the text says is that she loved the scent of winter roses. It says so right after we learn that Rhaegar gave her winter roses. I'm suspicious of that coincidence.

I agree the context is telling.

But the context starts much earlier--in Ned's first POV:

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." Game, Eddard I.

Then, in Sansa's first POV, Martin shows Arya's intense fondness for flowers. Of all the things he could have shown us about Arya that would have annoyed Sansa, he has it be Arya's love of flowers--and her love of giving them to her family.

Quote

Arya shrugged. "Hold still," she snapped at Nymeria, "I'm not hurting you." Then to Sansa she said, "When we were crossing the Neck, I counted thirty-six flowers I never saw before, and Mycah showed me a lizard-lion."

Sansa shuddered. They had been twelve days crossing the Neck, rumbling down a crooked causeway through an endless black bog, and she had hated every moment of it. The air had been damp and clammy, the causeway so narrow they could not even make proper camp at night, they had to stop right on the kingsroad. Dense thickets of half-drowned trees pressed close around them, branches dripping with curtains of pale fungus. Huge flowers bloomed in the mud and floated on pools of stagnant water, but if you were stupid enough to leave the causeway to pluck them, there were quicksands waiting to suck you down, and snakes watching from the trees, and lizard-lions floating half-submerged in the water, like black logs with eyes and teeth.

None of which stopped Arya, of course. One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father. Sansa kept hoping he would tell Arya to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be, but he never did, he only hugged her and thanked her for the flowers. That just made her worse.

Then it turned out the purple flowers were called poison kisses, and Arya got a rash on her arms. Sansa would have thought that might have taught her a lesson, but Arya laughed about it, and the next day she rubbed mud all over her arms like some ignorant bog woman just because her friend Mycah told her it would stop the itching. Game, Sansa I

 

So, even poisonous flowers that hurt Arya don't put her off of flowers. Poison Kisses don't make her dislike flowers. That seems really telling.

ETA: Note that even for adventurous Arya, the thrill of seeing a lizard lion gets listed second to  the thrill of counting 36 new flowers. 

And then, in Arya II, Ned tells Arya she's like Lyanna.

Really seems like all of that context is there for a reason. Lyanna, like Arya, was very likely fond of flowers. As Arya is--bringing them to Ned as Ned now brings flowers to Lyanna's tomb.

And, like Arya, just because the association with the flowers turned sour (thorns and blood and all that with the crown), doesn't mean she'd stop loving the flowers.

Arya's not put off by poison kisses--seems unlikely Lyanna would be. She might yell at the people and call them stupid--but still love the flowers.

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36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Lyanna wasn't a conventional girl. I doubt she grew up loving (the scent of) flowers, be they winter roses or not. She wouldn't even have seen that many winters in her life, dying at the age of sixteen.

True--but as quoted above, Martin takes a chunk of time showing how an unconventional girl loves flowers.

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The smells dominating Lyanna's life would have been horse (she was a skilled and passionate rider), leather and sweat (when she was beating up Benjen in the godswood), and things along those lines.

Lyanna is a dialed-up version of Arya, a spoiled Arya, a girl who always did what she wanted, and wasn't taking shit from anyone.

Exactly--and horsey faced Arya loves flowers. So much so that the thrill of seeing a lizard lion gets second billing to the thrill of counting 36 new flowers.

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It makes more sense to assume she connected with the winter roses for a reason, not just because they were beautiful. And if she had a thing for the gloomy singing prince, getting the winter rose crown from her would have made an impact on her.

Maybe--but Arya still loves flowers even after they turn out to be poison kisses (a very telling name in this story).

So, if Lyanna loved flowers--and then they were used against her--seems like if she was like Arya, she'd still love the flowers, no matter how poisonous.

But she'd call the people stupid and knock them down.

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