R+L=J v.165

[J. Stargaryen]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

snip

 

I don't know what you're not getting, so I can't help you there. As for Dany fulfilling the prophecy, I would agree. She almost completely literally woke dragons from stone. It was early and so literal that I am suspicious of it being true, or rather, the only truth. 

We've heard about waking dragons from stone and waking the stone dragon. I think it's possible the former applies to Dany and the latter to Jon. There's some analysis first posted by @Fire Eater , I believe, about how the Stark children have connections to stone. Maybe even further than that, the hiding of their identities has something to do with stone. Sansa goes by Alayne Stone, Arya is in Braavos and hides Needle—the last bit of her true identity—in stone steps, Bran is hiding in caves and Rickon is in Skaagos, which means "stone" in the old tongue. There's also even Lady Stoneheart, though she's not a Stark child, so either she doesn't count or the connection has to do with the Stark family rather than just the children. This isn't that wild either since we already know the Starks have a strong connection to stone via the crypts. The Stark lords even turn to stone when they die.

If one were inclined to believe this analysis and link it to "waking the stone dragon," imagining a Targaryen hiding among the Starks is a very natural and logical conclusion. Stone + hidden identities + Stark children/family + dragon.

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

We've heard about waking dragons from stone and waking the stone dragon. I think it's possible the former applies to Dany and the latter to Jon. There's some analysis first posted by @Fire Eater , I believe, about how the Stark children have connections to stone. Maybe even further than that, the hiding of their identities has something to do with stone. Sansa goes by Alayne Stone, Arya is in Braavos and hides Needle—the last bit of her true identity—in stone steps, Bran is hiding in caves and Rickon is in Skaagos, which means "stone" in the old tongue. There's also even Lady Stoneheart, though she's not a Stark child, so either she doesn't count or the connection has to do with the Stark family rather than just the children. This isn't that wild either since we already know the Starks have a strong connection to stone via the crypts. The Stark lords even turn to stone when they die.

Well this is interesting.  The connection between Starks and stone extends to the crypts as well where the spirit of dead Starks are trapped.  I think the same thing about Targs and dragon eggs.  But I think waking the dragon or great dragon as Davos refers to it is specific to Dany's experience with the dream of the singing dragon and her own transformation.  I'll have to think about Starks as dragons. 

[J. Stargaryen]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well this is interesting.  The connection between Starks and stone extends to the crypts as well where the spirit of dead Starks are trapped.  I think the same thing about Targs and dragon eggs.  But I think waking the dragon or great dragon as Davos refers to it is specific to Dany's experience with the dream of the singing dragon and her own transformation.  I'll have to think about Starks as dragons. 

1

There's one, but he's a Snow. For now.  

ETA: I did mention the crypts.

[Julia H.]

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

 I'll have to think about Starks as dragons. 

Well, there is the reference to the ice dragon multiple times in the books, there is also the story about a dragon egg being left in Winterfell.

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Well, there is the reference to the ice dragon multiple times in the books, there is also the story about a dragon egg being left in Winterfell.

I get the reference to ice dragons but I'm not sure they are more than stories about icebergs or the Wall itself.  Citation: dragon egg left behind a Winterfell?

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I get the reference to ice dragons but I'm not sure they are more than stories about icebergs or the Wall itself.  Citation: dragon egg left behind a Winterfell?

Oh, yes, in-world, the ice dragon may well be just a story for children (although if fire dragons can exist, why not ice dragons as well?). Yet, why is this legendary animal mentioned at all in the books? It may well be a metaphor to help us associate ice and dragons, and, by extension, the Starks and the dragons.

The same is true about the alleged dragon eggs in Winterfell. This is a quotation from the The World of Ice and Fire:

Quote

We can dismiss Mushroom's claim in his Testimony that the dragon Vermax left a clutch of eggs somewhere in the depths of Winterfell's crypts, where the waters of the hot springs run close to the walls, while his rider treated with Cregan Stark at the start of the Dance of the Dragons. As Archmaester Gyldayn notes in his fragmentary history, there is no record that Vermax ever laid so much as a single egg, suggesting the dragon was male. The belief that dragons could change sex at need is erroneous, according to Maester Anson's Truth, rooted in a misunderstanding of the esoteric metaphor that Barth preferred when discussing the higher mysteries.

The context is very interesting here. The story is presented and cast doubt on at the same time. An argument is presented (Vermax was probably male) but a counterargument is also mentioned (dragons could change sex) and refuted at once. In addition, the reader knows that Yandel's judgement isn't always correct. Now, if the rumour is true, it is theoretically not impossible that proof may still be found, since we know that dragon eggs can be preserved for a long time. But perhaps it is more likely that we will never find out whether this story is "true" or not. It looks rather like the writer is teasing the reader: "it may or may not be true, believe what you will". It may even be tongue-in-cheek reference to the R+L=J debate in RL. Or it may have a hidden, metaphorical (and equally tongue-in-cheek) meaning, with a male dragon leaving "eggs" in Winterfell - a reader's mind may easily jump to Rhaegar, "the last dragon". Whatever the purpose of the writer was, one thing is certain - that the mention of the story establishes a contextual link between dragons and Starks, and that is why I suggested this story as something that might help to "think about Starks as dragons". 

 

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Oh, yes, in-world, the ice dragon may well be just a story for children (although if fire dragons can exist, why not ice dragons as well?). Yet, why is this legendary animal mentioned at all in th books? It may well be a metaphor to help us associate ice and dragons, and, by extension, the Starks and the dragons.

The same is true about the alleged dragon eggs in Winterfell. This is a quotation from the The World of Ice and Fire:

The context is very interesting here. The story is presented and cast doubt on at the same time. An argument is presented (Vermax was probably male) but a counterargument is also mentioned (dragons could change sex) and refuted at once. In addition, the reader knows that Yandel's judgement isn't always correct. Now, if the rumour is true, it is theoretically not impossible that proof may still be found, since we know that dragon eggs can be preserved for a long time. But perhaps it is more likely that we will never find out whether this story is "true" or not. It looks rather like the writer is teasing the reader: "it may or may not be true, believe what you will". It may even be tongue-in-cheek reference to the R+L=J debate in RL. Or it may have a hidden, metaphorical (and equally tongue-in-cheek) meaning, with a male dragon leaving "eggs" in Winterfell - a reader's mind may easily jump to Rhaegar, "the last dragon". Whatever the purpose of the writer was, one thing is certain - that the mention of the story establishes a contextual link between dragons and Starks, and that is why I suggested this story as something that might help to "think about Starks as dragons". 

 

Do you think Vermax could get through the doors to the crypts? Wouldn't Vermax have to be a rather small dragon?  I think Mushroom and Maester Gyldayn are having us on.  The ice dragon is synonymous with the cold winds of the North rather than an actual dragon.  Although Jon does describe the wormways under the Wall as entering the gullet of an ice dragon.  I think the Wall is the closest thing we'll get to an actual ice dragon.  If Jon can access the power of the Wall as Melisandre suggests; it could be said that he would be riding the dragon.

[Julia H.]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Do you think Vermax could get through the doors to the crypts? Wouldn't Vermax have to be a rather small dragon?  I think Mushroom and Maester Gyldayn are having us on.  The ice dragon is synonymous with the cold winds of the North rather than an actual dragon.  Although Jon does describe the wormways under the Wall as entering the gullet of an ice dragon.  I think the Wall is the closest thing we'll get to an actual ice dragon.  If Jon can access the power of the Wall as Melisandre suggests; it could be said that he would be riding the dragon.

I have no idea how Vermax could get into the crypts, nor am I very interested in it. As I said above, both the Vermax story and the ice dragon story could be totally metaphorical, just stories within the story, nothing to do with in-world history, yet, they may point towards something. The discussion above on the possible "stone dragon" connections of the Starks also refers to a metaphorical connection - the Starks are not actual dragons. (Not even the Targaryens are the same as the real dragons, for all the bonding between them.) All I'm saying is that there are textual connections between the Starks and dragons. It doesn't really matter if an ice dragon ever existed (unless the writer means to introduce one in the main story), it doesn't matter what Vermax did or did not do in Winterfell as long as it cannot be proved either way. What matters is how the mention of a metaphorical "Northern dragon" (ice dragon, dragon eggs in Winterfell) may serve the current storyline. 

[LynnS]

31 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I have no idea how Vermax could get into the crypts, nor am I very interested in it. As I said above, both the Vermax story and the ice dragon story could be totally metaphorical, just stories within the story, nothing to do with in-world history, yet, they may point towards something. The discussion above on the possible "stone dragon" connections of the Starks also refers to a metaphorical connection - the Starks are not actual dragons. (Not even the Targaryens are the same as the real dragons, for all the bonding between them.) All I'm saying is that there are textual connections between the Starks and dragons. It doesn't really matter if an ice dragon ever existed (unless the writer means to introduce one in the main story), it doesn't matter what Vermax did or did not do in Winterfell as long as it cannot be proved either way. What matters is how the mention of a metaphorical "Northern dragon" (ice dragon, dragon eggs in Winterfell) may serve the current storyline. 

I don't mean to give offense Julia; I just think it's a wind-up.   The business of stone dragons seems very specific to me as it relates to Dany and the 'stone' eggs.  While waking the great dragon is something altogether different; I don't think it applies to Jon but rather to Rhaegar.  

Memories are the bones of the soul according to the Damphair and we see with the wights that they only 'remember' that they are dead when the bones are crushed.  The Starks bury the bones of the ancestors in stone sarcophagus and ward them with iron to contain the soul in place. Targ burn their dead so there are no bones to retain a memory; but I do think that the soul can be trapped or contained in dragon eggs.  Illyrio says that time has turned them to stone but I'm not sure that the eggs aren't hard as stone to begin with.  And I'm not sure that he is telling the full truth about the dragon eggs.  How he acquired them, for example.  I think at least two of them are viable eggs from wild dragons out of Asshai.  One of them, the black egg, the largest of them, I think belonged to Rhaegar and I also think it contains his soul.  

Whatever people think about RLJ; just put this aside for a moment and consider that waking the Great Dragon as Davos refers to it; involves waking Rhaegar's soul within the black egg - the singing dragon of Dany's dream.    When Dany burns Drogo, she sees his soul rise into the stars; it doesn't go into the black egg as people speculate.  Rheago is born dead partly transformed into a dragon; he has been dead a long time.  This is the life for death price for Rhaegar's resurrection as the Black Dread. and why Rheago changes state with the dragon egg.

This is why Dany sees Rhaegar in her dreams wearing in black armor.  The armor of the black dragon and why Dany not only sees herself wearing Rhaegar's armor but riding the black dragon.  When Jorah challenges Dany; he asks if she can wake the dragon:
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"I hit him," she said, wonder in her voice. Now that it was over, it seemed like some strange dream that she had dreamed. "Ser Jorah, do you think … he'll be so angry when he gets back …" She shivered. "I woke the dragon, didn't I?"

Ser Jorah snorted. "Can you wake the dead, girl? Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, and he died on the Trident. Viserys is less than the shadow of a snake."

And the strangest dream of all:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys III

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

 

Whose memories are these of the Trident if they are not Rhaegar's?

I don't think Jon is the great dragon. I'm not sure what he will become.

 

 

 

[Julia H.]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

And the strangest dream of all:

Whose memories are these of the Trident if they are not Rhaegar's?

Interesting theory. I can believe that Illyrio lied about the eggs, but it is still a question how the eggs are related to Rhaegar and why Illyrio gave them to Daenerys (given his Aegon scheme). As for the dream, I always had the impression that Dany was looking at some alternative reality  rather than her own future, as some readers apparently interpret the dream. 

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think Jon is the great dragon. I'm not sure what he will become.

 

I see several different possibilities for him, possibilities that I can't exclude, and I'm not sure either where his storyline will go - how could anyone be sure? But the connection between stone and the Starks is difficult to deny, and Jon's storyline is interwoven with dragon, fire and royal references, while he is also shown as the ultimate ice character. Where the writer wants to go with this, he alone could tell.   

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Interesting theory. I can believe that Illyrio lied about the eggs, but it is still a question how the eggs are related to Rhaegar and why Illyrio gave them to Daenerys (given his Aegon scheme). As for the dream, I always had the impression that Dany was looking at some alternative reality  rather than her own future, as some readers apparently interpret the dream. 

This dream seems very much like a wolf dream where the wolf initiates the contact and is the dominant partner or something akin to Bran skinchaning Hodor who becomes the small voice in the background.

I think there is something to Jon being resurrected with fire.  In Mirri's tent ritual, Dany sees the shapes of shadows; one of which is a man limned in flame and the other is the Great Wolf.  Melisandre essentially sees the same thing in her fires when looking for R'hllor's instrument: a man, a wolf and a man again.  She knows Jon Snow so recognizes him as the man limned in flame while Dany does not.  My head canon says that the Great Wolf is Bran.

Melisandre also says that the Wall is as much her place as it is Jon's.  Just as she says that Jon can access the power of the Wall; I think she does as well.  The Wall is alive with light when she burns Rattleshirt as though she draws too much power to her own peril, until Jon kills Rattleshirt.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

Stannis Baratheon drew Lightbringer.

The sword glowed red and yellow and orange, alive with light. Jon had seen the show before … but not like this, never before like this. Lightbringer was the sun made steel. When Stannis raised the blade above his head, men had to turn their heads or cover their eyes. Horses shied, and one threw his rider. The blaze in the fire pit seemed to shrink before this storm of light, like a small dog cowering before a larger one. The Wall itself turned red and pink and orange, as waves of color danced across the ice. Is this the power of king's blood?

So I think the Wall is a place that enhances not only ice magic but fire magic.  The Wall might be another form of frozen fire.  

[Megorova]

I noticed proof, that after Lyanna's death, Ned and Howland weren't alone in the Tower of Joy.

AGOT, Eddard I:

Quote

“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. “I bring her flowers when I can,” he said. “Lyanna was…fond of flowers.”

THEY

When Ned was with already dead Lyanna, to him came Howland Reed and someone else. At least one more person.

I think that this person was Ashara Dayne.

It could also be wet nurse Wylla. But most likely it was Ashara. Because just imagine that situation - Lyanna gave birth to Jon, and was dying. Thus the baby was under care of his wet nurse Wylla. Probably they either were in some other room, at the time when Ned came to the Tower, or they were in the same room with Lyanna. If they were in the same room, then whoever was that other person, that came with Howland, was not Wylla. If Wylla was already there, then that other person was Ashara. If the person that came with Howland to Ned was Wylla, then it makes a bit less sense, than in case if it was Ashara. Because Wylla didn't knew Ned, there's no reason for her to go to him with Howland. It's written there "They had found him", thus they were looking for him. And Wylla didn't met Ned ever before, thus there was no reason for her to go looking for him. Also at that time she was taking care of newborn baby. Thus her hands were already full, in all senses. And Howland Reed was wounded, so probably whoever came with him to Ned, was helping him to walk. And Wylla, that was carrying a baby, was unable to also assist to wounded Howland. Thus the one who went out, and brought wounded Howland to Ned, was Ashara Dayne. She met him during tournament at Harrenhall, and since then they were in a relationship, or at least were in contact. Thus after events at the Tower of Joy, Howland and Ashara went together to The Neck, where they have married, and Ashara changed her name to Jyana, in memory of Lyanna.

That "they" prove that Ned and Howland were not alone. And someone had to have brought there Wylla from Starfall, prior Lyanna's death. Because she was working at Starfall for years, even prior she became Jon's wet nurse, and went with him to Winterfell. This is based on what Edric Ned Dayne said to Arya.

[Ygrain]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

AGOT, Eddard I:

THEY

This has been duly noted :-)

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

 It's written there "They had found him", thus they were looking for him.

This is an incorrect assumption - you can say, for example, "When I entered the room, I found my son shredding the new book".

 

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

And Wylla didn't met Ned ever before, thus there was no reason for her to go looking for him. Also at that time she was taking care of newborn baby. Thus her hands were already full, in all senses.

When babies are asleep, they demand precious little care :-)

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

And Howland Reed was wounded, so probably whoever came with him to Ned, was helping him to walk.

Unsupported by the text, I'm afraid. Possible, but never mentioned.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

And Wylla, that was carrying a baby, was unable to also assist to wounded Howland. Thus the one who went out, and brought wounded Howland to Ned, was Ashara Dayne. She met him during tournament at Harrenhall, and since then they were in a relationship, or at least were in contact.

Again, possible but with zero textual support.

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

Thus after events at the Tower of Joy, Howland and Ashara went together to The Neck, where they have married, and Ashara changed her name to Jyana, in memory of Lyanna.

...Ditto.

Plus, since Ashara is said to have jumped from the tower, she must have returned to Starfall first.

 

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

That "they" prove that Ned and Howland were not alone. And someone had to have brought there Wylla from Starfall, prior Lyanna's death. Because she was working at Starfall for years, even prior she became Jon's wet nurse, and went with him to Winterfell. This is based on what Edric Ned Dayne said to Arya.

The bolded is incorrect - Ned Dayne sas that she has been working for the Daynes for years but doesn't specify when she started, i.e. if it was prior Jon's birth or after.

Furthermore, if Wylla was to sell the story of being Jon's mother at Starfall, she either must have hailed from elsewhere, or been absent for +9 months, because otherwise there would be no sufficient timeframe for her to meet and be impregnated by Eddard Stark.

 

That said, it is possible that Ashara was at TOJ as a companion to Lyanna, because she "wasn't nailed to the floor of Starfall", or that she even played some role in revealing the location to Ned.

[Ygrain]

On the subject of Ashara's involvement:

We've long operated under the assumption that, as per GRRM, Ashara was not in KL during the Sack. However, Ran has no knowledge of such a statement and so far, no-one I asked was able to provide a link.

So, if she was in KL at least for the end of the Rebellion, she indeed could have been Ned's source of information about ToJ, and a source of information about the Trident and the Sack for the KG and Lyanna because she would have travelled faster than Ned and his army who had to make a stop at SE. Her involvement would thus lead directly to her brother's death (and Barristan would have no idea about this, so he attributes her suicide to grieving for her stillborn baby).

Also, if Ashara left Elia's service to deliver her baby at Starfall, she could have acted as Rhaegar's messenger when Elia was summoned to KL, as simply reassuming her position (if possible for a "fallen" woman), or paying a visit.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

19 hours ago, LynnS said:

Illyrio says that time has turned them to stone but I'm not sure that the eggs aren't hard as stone to begin with. 

To be fair, Dany's three eggs aren't the only ones described to have "turned into stone" by time.

His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

To be fair, Dany's three eggs aren't the only ones described to have "turned into stone" by time.

His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

Who says those are different eggs?  

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

To be fair, Dany's three eggs aren't the only ones described to have "turned into stone" by time.

His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

I'm guessing that dragon eggs start out as hard as stone.  Otherwise they couldn't withstand the heat required to brood them in the first place.

[Alia of the knife]

On 2/20/2018 at 7:21 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

To be fair, Dany's three eggs aren't the only ones described to have "turned into stone" by time.

His attempts to bring forth dragons from eggs found in the depths of Dragonstone (some so old that they had turned to stone) yielded naught, however.

TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

I always took it to mean that perhaps where there may have been viable life, they died and they more or less fossilized, but with the coming of Dany and perhaps deaths of her brother, husband and son, that life force transferred to the eggs.

[Ser Leftwich]

Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned?

Does Cersei have a specific reason to think that Ned burned a holdfast or just that holdfasts are usually burned?

If the first, this adds to the idea that Ned would have burned (the wooden support structures within)the ToJ and then pulled down the remains. Seems like there are some rumors of what Ned and co were up to, but no specifics.

What is the general level of knowledge of where Ned went in Dorne? Just 'somewhere,' then Starfall?

Just hunting for Lyanna? Or the missing Kingsguard?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

It occurs to me that Gerold Hightower staying behind with Arthur and Oswell may have gone beyond what Rhaegar may have requested of him and a way to try and make things up to Rickard Stark.

Ser Gerold was present when Aerys had Brandon and Rickard killed and he told Jaime afterward that he swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him. So I do have to wonder if this didn't go much further for him, guarding Lyanna and protecting her and her unborn child wasn't also him paying his debt.