R+L=J v.165

[zoenerys]

38 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I don't recall Jon explicitly saying that he asked Ned about his mother. But if Catelyn asked (and we know she did) and was met by a wall, my assumption is that Jon might have been met with similar resistance. 

In Jon VII, AGoT 52, Jon decided that next time he sees Ned he will ask him because it's past time he told him. 

It's ambiguous enough I find that it could go either way.

True. Cat did ask but she was met with some double speak on Ned's part ("he is my blood"). I think that directly lying to his wife's face was something Ned didn't want to do, hence not naming Wylla as Jon's mom to Cat. I think it's the same thing if Jon (or any of his family were to ask). He'd say it didn't matter or try to brush it off or deflect onto something else.

The Robert case was very special. He simply had to respond to him. It's not like he could pull rank like with anyone else. Besides denying his best friend an answer would look suspicious. Even then he did the bare minimum and told Robert to leave it alone. 

OT kind of but: I also think that Ned not finding a mother figure for him ie. keeping wylla in winterfell or some other woman willing to share parental responsibility with him was out of loyalty to Lyanna. He didn't want anyone to replace her as Jon's mom. I don't have any quotes to back this up, it's just a feeling I have. 

[HallowedMarcus]

On 15/04/2018 at 5:24 PM, Lord Varys said:

the point is that Tyrion clearly was neither Tywin's heir nor his spare. He was nothing, and he was treated as such.

    He was nothing and treated as such? Like when Tywn the Warden of the West called his banners because of what Cat did to him?  Like when Lord of Lannister trusted him over Cersey and named him Hand of the King in his stead? Are you talking about those two cases? i do concur with thee. 

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, zeb1814 said:

True. Cat did ask but she was met with some double speak on Ned's part ("he is my blood"). I think that directly lying to his wife's face was something Ned didn't want to do, hence not naming Wylla as Jon's mom to Cat. I think it's the same thing if Jon (or any of his family were to ask). He'd say it didn't matter or try to brush it off or deflect onto something else.

The Robert case was very special. He simply had to respond to him. It's not like he could pull rank like with anyone else. Besides denying his best friend an answer would look suspicious. Even then he did the bare minimum and told Robert to leave it alone. 

That is my reading, as well - Ned avoids lying as much as he can, and Robert is the only person to get an answer because he is the only person with an authority over Ned.

7 hours ago, zeb1814 said:

OT kind of but: I also think that Ned not finding a mother figure for him ie. keeping wylla in winterfell or some other woman willing to share parental responsibility with him was out of loyalty to Lyanna. He didn't want anyone to replace her as Jon's mom. I don't have any quotes to back this up, it's just a feeling I have. 

Sounds quite possible.

[zoenerys]

RE My initial comment in this thread, I just thought of something. Perhaps subconsciously Jon doesn't want to know who his mother is. What do we think of this? I know he says he does but saying you want the truth and knowing what to do with it when you have it are two different things.

He doesn't think about his mom too much. It's clear to me that he has built a fantasy in his head about who his mom was, and her relationship with Ned. The ironic thing? She IS who he hopes her to be. Highborn, beautiful and kind. So technically he's getting what he wanted but it's going to come with the devastation that his only parent and idol wasn't even his father. ugh. I feel so bad for him but it makes me glad that Ned didn't tell him the truth. Some things should be kept secret. Learning that as far as the stark kids are concerned , you were conceived of rape is not going to be good for his mental health. I think it might lead to a psychotic break of Jon. :/ 

[SFDanny]

On 5/4/2018 at 8:43 AM, Widow's Watch said:

Sorry, I forgot to reply to this. I only meant that Rhaegar was gone longer than a year. If he was gone from Dragonstone at the end of 281-start of 282, and returned sometime in 283 after the Battle of the Bells. We don't know when in 283 he was back, though I think 3 months into 283 would be a "reasonable" estimate. I didn't mean that he was with Lyanna the whole time. I don't know if this makes sense. 

It makes perfect sense. Even more so because you're looking for "reasonable estimates" where we can't be sure. Excellent!

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

I noticed this in the World Book.

Quote

Let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III...even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family, as had been agreed in the Pact of Ice and Fire made when the doomed prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon.

During the Dance of Dragons Cregan Stark was told he would get a Targaryen princess to marry into his family. They called it the Pact of Ice and Fire. So a Stark marrying a Targaryen was called Ice and Fire.

I can't help but think this is another clue to RLJ. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I noticed this in the World Book.

During the Dance of Dragons Cregan Stark was told he would get a Targaryen princess to marry into his family. They called it the Pact of Ice and Fire. So a Stark marrying a Targaryen was called Ice and Fire.

I can't help but think this is another clue to RLJ. 

No doubt.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I noticed this in the World Book.

During the Dance of Dragons Cregan Stark was told he would get a Targaryen princess to marry into his family. They called it the Pact of Ice and Fire. So a Stark marrying a Targaryen was called Ice and Fire.

I can't help but think this is another clue to RLJ. 

Wasn't that pact about marriage between prince Jace and Cregan's bastard-daughter? (Jace himself was a bastard. Most likely.)

There was also a rumour, that Jace's dragon has layed eggs somewhere in crypts under Winterfell.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

7 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Wasn't that pact about marriage between prince Jace and Cregan's bastard-daughter? (Jace himself was a bastard. Most likely.)

The only mention is the one I quoted above which says a royal (Targ) princess marrying into the Stark family. Do you have a quote for what you are suggesting? 

9 minutes ago, Megorova said:

There was also a rumour, that Jace's dragon has layed eggs somewhere in crypts under Winterfell.

What does this have to do with the point I was making that a marriage pact between Targaryens and Starks was called the Pact of Ice and Fire?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I noticed this in the World Book.

During the Dance of Dragons Cregan Stark was told he would get a Targaryen princess to marry into his family. They called it the Pact of Ice and Fire. So a Stark marrying a Targaryen was called Ice and Fire.

I can't help but think this is another clue to RLJ. 

In the same vein, does it strike anyone else as sort of odd that scholarly, well-read Rhaegar didn't click with this? 

[Azarial]

27 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

In the same vein, does it strike anyone else as sort of odd that scholarly, well-read Rhaegar didn't click with this? 

I suspect that he did. I have found some hints about some of what Rheagar could have been up to, and they point to him knowing all about this. But I'll need time to find the quotes, so I will post back once I've had time to do that. 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The only mention is the one I quoted above which says a royal (Targ) princess marrying into the Stark family. Do you have a quote for what you are suggesting?

No, I don't have a quote. Only this:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jacaerys_Velaryon#The_Dance_of_the_Dragons

"Jacaerys gained the north through the Pact of Ice and Fire, promising young Lord Cregan Stark a Targaryen princess as a bride.^[5] According to semi-canon sources, Cregan Stark had a bastard half-sister, and Mushroom's ribald and little-trusted account of the war claimed that Jacaerys fell in love with the girl and married her in secret.^[6] This semi-canon information seems to match with the print version of The World of Ice & Fire, which reports that Mushroom claimed that Vermax laid a clutch of eggs while at Winterfell, and Jacaerys left them hidden there as a token for some reason.^[7] "

Maybe the reason was, that dragon eggs were part of the Pact. The Pact could be not about marriage, or rather not about marriage alone.

Information that Pact of Ice and Fire was about marriage between member of Stark family and Targaryen princess, could be a mistake, or rather false information, or not complete information. Because first of all - what Targaryen princess? Rhaenna and Baela were betrothed to Lucerys and Jacaerys Velaryons, and princess Jaehaera was one of defective Targaryens, so it's unlikely, that Cregan would have agreed to that marriage. So unless Jace proposed his own fiancee to Cregan, or the Pact was including some future, unborn yet princess, then there was no free Targaryen princess to marry off to Starks. Also even when the war ended, that marriage didn't happened - girl-Targ x boy-Stark. Which again may mean, that the Pact could be not about marriage between Targaryen princess and member of Stark family, but the opposite - Targaryen prince and girl from Stark family, Cregan's bastard-sister (I wrote Cregan's bastard-daughter in previous post, actually she was Rickon's daughter, and Cregan's half-sister).

And also this:

"The bastard daughter of Rickon Stark is only mentioned in a semi-canon source, since she was cut from The World of Ice & Fire for reasons of space.^[1] According to that same semi-canon source, Mushroom alleged that when Prince Jacaerys Velaryon visited Winterfell to gain the support of Lord Cregan Stark for his mother, Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen, during the Dance of the Dragons, Jacaerys fell in love with and secretly married Cregan's bastard half-sister. This is apparently a detail related to the Pact of Ice and Fire.^[1]"

Quote

He saw no more of his father, nor the girl who looked like Arya, but a woman heavy with child emerged naked and dripping from the black pool, knelt before the tree, and begged the old gods for a son who would avenge her. Then there came a brown-haired girl slender as a spear who stood on the tips of her toes to kiss the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows.

Pregnant woman is Alysanne Blackwood. She gave birth to Cregan's four daughters, and then died. A girl and a young knight is Stark-bastard-girl and prince Jace (he was described as a strapping lad, which means tall). And the last one is Brandon Snow during Aegon's conquest of The North.

Co-authors of that book claim, that from information about the Pact, was left only one sentence, and all the rest was removed for space reasons, seem like a load of BS. I think, that that information was removed on purpose, because there was some sort of huge spoiler, like a dragon in Winterfell, as result of the Pact, according to which, Targaryens gave dragon eggs to Starks.

Though it's just an assumption.

6 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I can't help but think this is another clue to RLJ. 

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

What does this have to do with the point I was making that a marriage pact between Targaryens and Starks was called the Pact of Ice and Fire? 

If the Pact was about Stark female marrying with a Targaryen prince, and Targaryens giving dragon egg for the child of that woman, then that Pact wasn't fulfilled untill Rhaegar married with Lyanna.

That child was never born, because Jace died in the war. But the marriage between Lyanna and Rhaegar, and subsequent birth of their child, is the realisation of that Pact's conditions.

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

In the same vein, does it strike anyone else as sort of odd that scholarly, well-read Rhaegar didn't click with this? 

Maybe Rhaegar knew about the Pact of Ice and Fire. So after his encounter with Lyanna, during tournament at Harrenhall (where she was the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and he warned her about upcoming unmasking, planned by Aerys), and after he found out, that his wife is unable to give birth to more children, he saw this Pact, as a sign, that he should marry with Lyanna, to fulfill an ancient promise between their families. And child of this marriage will be the Prince that was pormised, and his will be The Song of Ice and Fire. He realised, that he was mistaken about Elia's Aegon, being the promised Prince.

[Lord Varys]

Well, those dragons tried to marry their spare daughters off to those Northmen rather often - the Starks are not the first, some Lord Manderly was supposed to marry the Princess Viserra back during the reign of Jaehaerys I.

I don't think, though, that this 'Pact of Ice and Fire' thing had anything to do with Jace's alleged secret marriage to the Stark bastard girl. A prince marrying a bastard isn't a pact of any kind but rather madness/a marriage made out of passion and love, not a political match to seal a deal. It is the same as Robb Stark's stupid marriage to Jeyne Westerling (which was politically completely useless) or Prince Duncan's mad marriage to Jenny of Oldstones (which was even worse).

From what @Ran has told us the source for the Jace-Stark bastard thing was Mushroom whereas the thing about 'the Pact of Ice and Fire' seems to be official history not so much weirdo rumors like the one about Vermax laying eggs at Winterfell, or a dragon sleeping beneath Winterfell, etc.

One assumes that Jace and Cregan exchanged some promises there - a Targaryen bride for Lord Cregan himself, who - according to the MUSH - just lost his first wife (the death of Luke left Lady Rhaena Targaryen without a future husband) - or perhaps a hypothetical yet unborn daughter of Rhaenyra-Daemon or Jace himself for Cregan's young heir.

The idea that Rhaegar cared much about this thing doesn't sound very convincing to me considering that this was a pact involving a Targaryen princess marrying a Stark, not a Stark daughter marrying a Targaryen prince. There is a meaningful difference there.

[Megorova]

I have another theory about RLJ

I think, that Rhaegar and Lyanna married at Starfall on 24 December 282, and the wedding ceremony was performed by maester Marwyn.

Jon was conceived on Christmas Eve, on night between December 24 and 25. And he was born in late September of 283, which makes him a Libra (Zodiac sign), and his guardian planet is Venus.

Maybe after the secret of Jon's birth will be out of the bag, GRRM will reveal to us, when exactly is Jon's birthday.

Signs of other characters - Dany/Gemini (born in late May), Lyanna/Capricorn (born in late December; married with Rhaegar, after she turned 16 years old), Robb/Sagittarius, Meera/Scorpio. 

I calculated all of it, based on information about main battles of Robert's Rebellion (when they took place, distances between main locations (such as Harrenhall-Starfall, Starfall-KL, KL-Trident, KL-Storm's End, Storm's End-Tower of Joy, Tower of Joy-KL), and how much time does it takes to travel thru those distances on horseback); Meera's birthday happening between Harvest Feast and New Years Eve; Jon's birthday happening approximately one month after his arrival to Castle Black; Dany being still 14 between Drogo's death and upon arrival to lost city, and being already 15, on day when she arrived to Qarth; Quaithe mentioning that six months ago, firemages didn't had so much power as they do now, probably because Dany's dragons were born 6 months ago; GRRM saying that age difference between Jon and Dany is 8 or 9 months; GRRM saying that Dany was born approximately 9 months after the Sack of King's Landing.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

I have another theory about RLJ

I think, that Rhaegar and Lyanna married at Starfall on 24 December 282, and the wedding ceremony was performed by maester Marwyn.

Jon was conceived on Christmas Eve, on night between December 24 and 25. And he was born in late September of 283, which makes him a Libra (Zodiac sign), and his guardian planet is Venus.

Maybe after the secret of Jon's birth will be out of the bag, GRRM will reveal to us, when exactly is Jon's birthday.

Signs of other characters - Dany/Gemini (born in late May), Lyanna/Capricorn (born in late December; married with Rhaegar, after she turned 16 years old), Robb/Sagittarius, Meera/Scorpio. 

I calculated all of it, based on information about main battles of Robert's Rebellion (when they took place, distances between main locations (such as Harrenhall-Starfall, Starfall-KL, KL-Trident, KL-Storm's End, Storm's End-Tower of Joy, Tower of Joy-KL), and how much time does it takes to travel thru those distances on horseback); Meera's birthday happening between Harvest Feast and New Years Eve; Jon's birthday happening approximately one month after his arrival to Castle Black; Dany being still 14 between Drogo's death and upon arrival to lost city, and being already 15, on day when she arrived to Qarth; Quaithe mentioning that six months ago, firemages didn't had so much power as they do now, probably because Dany's dragons were born 6 months ago; GRRM saying that age difference between Jon and Dany is 8 or 9 months; GRRM saying that Dany was born approximately 9 months after the Sack of King's Landing.

George:

 

"The reason I am never specific about dates and distances is precisely so that people won't sit down and do this sort of thing.

My suggestion would be to put away the ruler and the stopwatch, and just enjoy the story."

 

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology_and_Distances

[Dorian Martell's son]

Is this the longest lasting R+L=J thread? 6 months is a long time on here.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Just trying to spice up the thread...

One of my favorites. Jon II, Dance.

Quote

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. "You don't need to take a knee for me. That's just for kings."

There's the obvious implication of Jon being royalty, but there is also a similar theme going on where Jon is doing what his father did for him.

Jon is about to tell Gilly to take Dalla's babe. Ned hid the symbolically royal baby Jon. Now Jon is hiding the symbolically royal baby Aemon Steelsong.

[Shmedricko]

20 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

One of my favorites. Jon II, Dance.

Quote

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. "You don't need to take a knee for me. That's just for kings."

That makes it two times now where Gilly has knelt before Jon:

Her breath frosted the air in small nervous puffs. "They say the king gives justice and protects the weak." She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. "M'lord, I beg you—" (Jon III, ACOK)

I wonder if there will be a third...

[IceFire125]

16 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

That makes it two times now where Gilly has knelt before Jon:

Her breath frosted the air in small nervous puffs. "They say the king gives justice and protects the weak." She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. "M'lord, I beg you—" (Jon III, ACOK)

I wonder if there will be a third...

 

At the Great Council when the Great Lords of Westeros elect Jon as their king.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I have been wondering for a while now how much Barristan knows about this whole thing. It's extremely early in the books (Dany 1, ch 3) that Dany tells us that her brother died for the woman he loved, and 4 books later when Barristan essentially confirms her thoughts that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. 

What has me wondering is the White Book. Jaime's POV (Jaime VIII, ASOS 67) explains that the Lord Commander is responsible for the entries in it, and that Barristan took the time to come back to White Sword Tower after he was sacked to complete his own entry in the book. To me it always seemed like something Barristan would want to do because of the kind of man he is. It's not just that it's his duty, but it's also about the truth of what happened. 

So it got me wondering about the final entries for Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne and what Barristan wrote down for them and if he was told what their orders were. I would think he'd want to write something as close to the truth as he possibly can for those three, wouldn't he?