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R+L=J v.165


Ygrain

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3 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

So it got me wondering about the final entries for Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne and what Barristan wrote down for them and if he was told what their orders were. I would think he'd want to write something as close to the truth as he possibly can for those three, wouldn't he?

Stuff like that is pretty much the reason why I (and many other people, hopefully) believe there is an official story about why Lyanna Stark and the Kingsguard were where they were, as well as (pretty much) accurate account on why and how they died.

Robert Baratheon would have wanted to know what happened to his Lyanna, just as he (and many other people, including the families of the men who died - among them as prominent a house as Hightower of Oldtown) would have wanted to know what happened to Aerys II's last three Seven.

That, in turn, means that I believe that quite a few people knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, that Lyanna died a pregnant woman, possibly even that she died in childbirth (only believing she gave birth to a stillborn rather than a living child).

If something isn't a mystery it ensures nobody is going to look for loose ends.

Just because the author keeps a lot of things from us readers doesn't mean the people in Westeros are equally ignorant. Lyanna and Rhaegar are shrouded in mystery to the degree they are to prevent the reader to figure out the Jon Snow thing - and pretty much anybody would have done that very early on if the author had revealed Lyanna had been pregnant or even married.

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That, in turn, means that I believe that quite a few people knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, that Lyanna died a pregnant woman, possibly even that she died in childbirth (only believing she gave birth to a stillborn rather than a living child).

I think this is one of the things where for me, Lyanna remaining at the tower after Rhaegar went back to King's Landing doesn't really hold water for me personally. 

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Just because the author keeps a lot of things from us readers doesn't mean the people in Westeros are equally ignorant.

Well, yeah. Characters are always going to know a lot more than the reader does and will reveal what they know when they are good and ready.

That Jaime chapter is just interesting because while Arthur is on his mind for a lot of it, it's Barristan's entry he reads. So he essentially skips the entry that was dedicated Arthur which would be located between the Barristan and Jaime page.

I'm just trying to figure out who knows what and if these people will eventually connect the dots to Jon. I think Barristan is someone who knows a hell of a lot more than he is letting on. I think Varys may have connected the dots to Jon already. I think Leyton Hightower knows a lot of things too. But we'll see with him.

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On 6/10/2018 at 4:33 AM, Shmedricko said:

That makes it two times now where Gilly has knelt before Jon:

Her breath frosted the air in small nervous puffs. "They say the king gives justice and protects the weak." She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. "M'lord, I beg you—" (Jon III, ACOK)

I wonder if there will be a third...

When the count was done, Jon found himself surrounded. Some clapped him on the back, whilst others bent the knee to him as if he were a lord in truth. (Jon XII, ASOS 78)

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On 6/11/2018 at 4:46 PM, Widow's Watch said:

I think this is one of the things where for me, Lyanna remaining at the tower after Rhaegar went back to King's Landing doesn't really hold water for me personally. 

Oh, I think this could make perfect sense ... if true love soured, and Lyanna had sobered up, realizing that helping/allowing her dragon prince to war against her family and former betrothed was ... not exactly what she wanted. Not to mention helping the madman who had murdered her brother and father to keep both his throne and his head.

Lyanna may have remained at the tower because Rhaegar wanted to keep her under lock and key, away from her family and friends to prevent her from meddling with what he intended to do to and with them.

And he may not have trusted anyone but the Kingsguard to guard her because ... you know, anybody else might have been willing to allow her to leave, send a raven, or do something else.

On 6/11/2018 at 4:46 PM, Widow's Watch said:

That Jaime chapter is just interesting because while Arthur is on his mind for a lot of it, it's Barristan's entry he reads. So he essentially skips the entry that was dedicated Arthur which would be located between the Barristan and Jaime page.

That is likely a deliberate choice on George's part to keep knowledge from the reader.

But I'm not sure the White Book is one our main or most important sources on the Lyanna/Rhaegar thing. Pretty much everyone in the Realm could know about their romance and marriage - they just don't think and/or talk about that.

On 6/11/2018 at 4:46 PM, Widow's Watch said:

I'm just trying to figure out who knows what and if these people will eventually connect the dots to Jon. I think Barristan is someone who knows a hell of a lot more than he is letting on. I think Varys may have connected the dots to Jon already. I think Leyton Hightower knows a lot of things too. But we'll see with him.

Jon Snow simply isn't important enough for people to make much of a fuzz about him. I've made a case that Varys (and perhaps some other characters) may have figured out who Ned Stark's bastard might be in truth, but the fact remains that there is no proof, and there is no point in propping up some Targaryen pretender that doesn't look a Targaryen father.

While Robert lived Varys (or anybody) could have tried to create trouble for Ned by telling Robert stories about the bastard of Winterfell, but what would have been the point of that? That would have been just petty cruelty.

And since Jon got dumped at the Wall he became a political and dynastic non-entity.

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  • 5 weeks later...

Man, it's been ages since I've posted here. Reading the back & forth in this thread brings back the memories.

Assuming R+L=J, there are some things about that relationship that I really hope we find out about. Like what the conversation was like when she learned her father & brother were tortured and executed after they 'eloped'. Exactly what was the best case scenario for their relationship after that? That's just a whole new level of awkward right there.

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2 hours ago, Independent George said:

That's just a whole new level of awkward right there.

An understatement of the year, I suppose...

And yeah, I'd paid in gold to read that exchange, too.

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2 hours ago, Independent George said:

Man, it's been ages since I've posted here. Reading the back & forth in this thread brings back the memories.

Assuming R+L=J, there are some things about that relationship that I really hope we find out about. Like what the conversation was like when she learned her father & brother were tortured and executed after they 'eloped'. Exactly what was the best case scenario for their relationship after that? That's just a whole new level of awkward right there.

I think that moment definitely marks the end of the 'fun time' of their relationship. Which most likely means they sobered up rather early. For Rhaegar it makes sense that he didn't do anything thereafter considering that he didn't do all that much in his life but Lyanna didn't have a melancholic streak that we know of, and what we know about her makes it clear that it is completely out of character for her to sit on her ass and doing nothing while her brother(s) were trying to avenge their father and brother.

The final nail in the coffin must have been the moment when Lyanna realized that this man was actually going to leave her and go back to save the filthy hide of the madman on the Iron Throne, instead of helping to put him down.

Any self-respecting person would have ended the relationship then and there. Especially considering that Rhaegar fighting Robert meant that Rhaegar would also be fighting Ned (and Benjen) and the Northmen.

It implied that Lyanna expressed her love for Rhaegar on her deathbed (the whole roses thing) but that was after Rhaegar himself was dead, and his death may have been what made her understand that she still loved him. But I honestly doubt Lyanna Stark could have loved a man who was doing what Rhaegar tried to do.

This could also help explain why Rhaegar kept her in a tower in the middle of nowhere and under the protection of men he could trust completely rather than take her with him or leave her with some friends in a castle. He may have feared what she might do if she was free and at a castle. Like returning to Ned/Robert or trying to reach an understanding between the rebels and Rhaegar.

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What was Rhaegar planning, though? Why NOT try to reach an understanding with the rebels? Especially after Lyanna became pregnant, which you'd think would have made Ned at least try for peace. 

All the secrecy after Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off just doesn't make sense to me. The moment Rhaegar new Lyanna was pregnant, he should have sued for peace. 

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3 hours ago, anjulibai said:

What was Rhaegar planning, though? Why NOT try to reach an understanding with the rebels? Especially after Lyanna became pregnant, which you'd think would have made Ned at least try for peace. 

That is a mystery. I assume that Lyanna ended up in the tower to ensure she does not interfere with the continuation of the war which might have been what Rhaegar/Aerys and Robert truly wanted.

And, Ned, well, it would depend what he chose to believe and what he felt the honor of his demanded of him. We don't know what he thought honor demanded of him after Brandon and Rickard's ends as well as the stain on the honor of House Stark after the abduction thing.

And Lyanna would have been only the second wife of Rhaegar - last time we looked Alys Harroway, the second wife of Prince Maegor, was honored by the moniker 'that whore of Harroway'. And even any children born by Lyanna would be behind Elia's children in the succession, making Lyanna little more than a glorified paramour.

I don't doubt that Ned could have been persuaded to stop fighting against Rhaegar if he had a chance to talk to Lyanna in private, but it never came to that, and one assumes that he would have insisted that Aerys II has to be put down for what he did to Brandon and Rickard.

And it is pretty clear that Prince Rhaegar had no intention to allow anyone (but himself, perhaps) to manhandle, dishonor, depose, or kill his royal father. Rhaegar wanted to save his father and his dynasty by putting down the rebels and only intended to end or limit the power of his father after the threat to House Targaryen was ended.

3 hours ago, anjulibai said:

All the secrecy after Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off just doesn't make sense to me. The moment Rhaegar new Lyanna was pregnant, he should have sued for peace. 

I don't think it is a feasible scenario that there was secrecy involved there. People may have not known where Lyanna and Rhaegar were, but pretty much everyone must have known or suspected what they did and what the point of this 'abduction thing' was. It is not that difficult to figure out.

And Lyanna's pregnancy was likely known to the public, too. At least after Rhaegar's return to court.

From a political angle it would have been smart for Rhaegar to actually stage a coup and depose his father, and then try to forge a separate peace with the Starks and the Arryns. That way Robert could have been isolated and the rebellion would have been quickly over. But he apparently did not want to do that.

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4 hours ago, anjulibai said:

All the secrecy after Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off just doesn't make sense to me. The moment Rhaegar new Lyanna was pregnant, he should have sued for peace. 

But how? He wasn't calling the shots for the loyalists, Aerys was. On the Rebel side, Robert wouldn't be willing to listen, either, and I don't think Ned and Jon Arryn would side with Rhaegar against Robert.

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6 hours ago, anjulibai said:

All the secrecy after Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off just doesn't make sense to me. The moment Rhaegar new Lyanna was pregnant, he should have sued for peace.

We don't know that he didn't try, though. By the time the Battle of the Bells rolled around, I think it may have been just too late to sue for peace anyway. 

I personally think that the only reason Rhaegar even bothered going back to King's Landing was because he found out Elia and the children were there.

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On 7/12/2018 at 2:55 PM, Independent George said:

Man, it's been ages since I've posted here. Reading the back & forth in this thread brings back the memories.

Assuming R+L=J, there are some things about that relationship that I really hope we find out about. Like what the conversation was like when she learned her father & brother were tortured and executed after they 'eloped'. Exactly what was the best case scenario for their relationship after that? That's just a whole new level of awkward right there.

Depending on the original nature of the relationship, perhaps some mix of, or somewhere between, Joffrey-Sansa after Joffrey executed Ned, and Tyrion-Sansa after she finds out about Robb's murder?

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On 7/15/2018 at 3:46 AM, anjulibai said:

What was Rhaegar planning, though? Why NOT try to reach an understanding with the rebels? Especially after Lyanna became pregnant, which you'd think would have made Ned at least try for peace. 

All the secrecy after Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off just doesn't make sense to me. The moment Rhaegar new Lyanna was pregnant, he should have sued for peace. 

Assuming Prince Rhaegar knew Lyanna was pregnant by the time he returned to King's Landing after the Battle of the Bells:

- King Aerys had already murdered Lord Rickard Stark, Brandon Stark, and Elbert Arryn
- King Aerys had already commanded Lord Jon Arryn to execute Lord Robert Baratheon and Lord Eddard Stark
- Lord Jon had already disobeyed King Aerys, and rebelled against the Iron Throne
- Lord Robert and Lord Eddard had already called their banners against the Iron Throne
- Lord Hoster Tully had already been convinced to wed and join the rebels against the Iron Throne
- The rebel lords had already defeated the loyalists in the Battle of the Bells

The rebels are unlike to have made any agreement in which Lyanna remained with Rhaegar, or to have relented against the Iron Throne even in the event that Rhaegar had been willing to return Lyanna to them. By that time, Rhaegar couldn't separate himself from the deeds of his father, or escape the consequences of his own deeds, or perceived deeds. It was too late. I am reminded of Tyrion's and Tywin's comments in AGOT:

"Peace?" Tyrion swirled his wine thoughtfully, took a deep draft, and hurled his empty cup to the floor, where it shattered into a thousand pieces. "There's your peace, Ser Harys. My sweet nephew broke it for good and all when he decided to ornament the Red Keep with Lord Eddard's head. You'll have an easier time drinking wine from that cup than you will convincing Robb Stark to make peace now. He's winning … or hadn't you noticed?"" (AGOT - Tyrion IX)

"Lord Tywin seated himself. "You have the right of it about Stark. Alive, we might have used Lord Eddard to forge a peace with Winterfell and Riverrun, a peace that would have given us the time we need to deal with Robert's brothers. Dead …" His hand curled into a fist. "Madness. Rank madness."" (AGOT - Tyrion IX)

For Rhaegar's part, I think he had every intention of trying to restrict the power of his father, and rule in his place, but I don't think there is any chance that he would have sided with the rebels against his father, and agreed to see his father executed or punished. Nor do I think the rebels would have distinguished between Aerys and Rhaegar after Rickard, Brandon, and Elbert were murdered.

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@Lord Varys

Hey LV -- it has been a while. I have stayed away from the boards, as they were getting tedious and repetitive. GRRM's slowness in writing the next book really has sucked away a lot of my interest in the series. At this point, I almost just want the series over just to be over, as the fun of "waiting for the next installment in the adventure" is pretty much gone for me. But I have returned (at least briefly, not sure how long I will stick around this time).

In any event, in reading through some recent posts (got bored and decided to take a quick check-in peek at the boards), I noticed some positions of yours that I had not recalled previously (probably just do to the time that has passed). I have a question (or maybe some related questions) for you based on these statements of yours.

You seem to have developed views regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna that differ from what I recall being the "majority views" in terms of the nature of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna when he left for KL. For example, you seem to assert she is his hostage, while most people assume he is keeping her in protective hiding and they remained in love. You also seem to assume that Rhaegar told people at KL that Lyanna was pregnant, while most people assume that her pregnancy is never made public. While your statements are plausible and certainly not inconsistent with the text, the "majority" positions are also consistent with the text.

So my basic question is that while I understand why you put forth these theories (after all, you believe them to be the most likely scenario), why don't you acknowledge the meaningful possibility of the alternative theories (i.e., that Lyanna's pregnancy remained a secret and Lyanna was being protected by the KG, not held hostage in ToJ)? Your lack of acknowledgement of these theories suggests that you discount them as highly unlikely. If so, why (as I still believe them to be more likely than your alternative theories, but acknowledge that you could be correct)? What has made you so certain of your characterization, when you certainly are aware that most (or certainly, many) others who have formed views on these issues have developed different theories?

If anyone else wants to chime in on these alternative theories regarding the nature of the relationship between R&L when R went to KL and the likelihood of others knowing about L's pregnancy (or any other related issues) -- feel free (this is a public board, after all).

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22 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

In any event, in reading through some recent posts (got bored and decided to take a quick check-in peek at the boards), I noticed some positions of yours that I had not recalled previously (probably just do to the time that has passed). I have a question (or maybe some related questions) for you based on these statements of yours.

Good to hear from you again!

22 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

You seem to have developed views regarding Rhaegar and Lyanna that differ from what I recall being the "majority views" in terms of the nature of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna when he left for KL. For example, you seem to assert she is his hostage, while most people assume he is keeping her in protective hiding and they remained in love. You also seem to assume that Rhaegar told people at KL that Lyanna was pregnant, while most people assume that her pregnancy is never made public. While your statements are plausible and certainly not inconsistent with the text, the "majority" positions are also consistent with the text.

The reason for this is mostly due to the fact that I think Rhaegar and Lyanna need to have a story of their own, a story that is not likely going to be summarized as 'they had great sex for a year while the world was burning around them' or 'they were so in love that they could find the strength to do anything else'. That's what Melian and Thingol did, but Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't demigods and elven-heroes.

I don't think it is a plausible or even likely scenario that Lyanna's feelings for Rhaegar (and what he represented, his house) weren't affected by Aerys' deeds, or that Rhaegar, in turn, was so shy, timid, calculating, or unnecessary secretive about a relationship/marriage to a woman he loved, and the child they had conceived which she was carrying. This war was, in a very real sense, fought for Lyanna Stark, and if Robert trumpeted his love for Lyanna the entire time - which he did, we have evidence for this - it makes little sense Rhaegar did do something similar. At least he would have been forced to explain himself to his royal father and mother and the royal court.

But even if none of this had happened - it makes no sense that nobody learned or figured out what was happening there. This is not a fairy-tale setting.

22 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

So my basic question is that while I understand why you put forth these theories (after all, you believe them to be the most likely scenario), why don't you acknowledge the meaningful possibility of the alternative theories (i.e., that Lyanna's pregnancy remained a secret and Lyanna was being protected by the KG, not held hostage in ToJ)? Your lack of acknowledgement of these theories suggests that you discount them as highly unlikely. If so, why (as I still believe them to be more likely than your alternative theories, but acknowledge that you could be correct)? What has made you so certain of your characterization, when you certainly are aware that most (or certainly, many) others who have formed views on these issues have developed different theories?

Oh, I've combined the hostage thing with the romance thing. It makes not much sense to me to assume Rhaegar wanted his love protected at a place where she was not, in fact, all that protected from anyone. Three guys in a watchtower aren't good protection. But they are capable to keep a woman there and out of the sight of others. I don't think Lyanna was happy with the war fought 'for her', nor with Rhaegar's decision to help his mad father to crush her brother and her former betrothed.

The alternative scenario - a static love story, and no conflict, tension, misunderstandings, etc, in the Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship sounds too simple to me, especially for a relationship which is basically at the heart of the back story for the entire series.

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@Lord Varys

I have a "stylistic" response and a "substantive" response.

The stylistic response is simply that for the benefit of readers who are not aware of other theories, it might be helpful to acknowledge their existence (given that they remain plausible, even if you prefer a different theory). For example, in the past when discussing Jon's "real" name, I give my position (in this case, Aemon), but acknowledge some of the other prominent theories regarding his Targ name (such as a male version of Visenya to complete the three heads with R's other two children at the time). I can understand, however, how tedious it would become to acknowledge every time that this theory is merely your preferred theory but that many others have alternative theories are also are plausible. It is just the certainty with which you express your view that seems a bit more conclusive than the evidence supports.

As far as my substantive response, I will start by clarifying that you have not convinced me. I simply doubt that the story needs to be made that complicated, as the details don't really matter anymore -- what matters is the basic nature of Jon's heritage (as the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar and Lyanna). I don't see why the story needs to be made more complicated as none of those characters are still alive at this point in the story.

Your theory also seems to be a case of "overthinking" matters. In story, the characters generally express a belief that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. The "truth" that will be revealed (I think) is that this version of events never happened. Rhaegar did not keep Lyanna against her will (whether he grabbed her to protect her and then got romantic or they planned to get together from the beginning, I don't know, but the "official" story certainly is not accurate). So the readers are led to believe one set of facts -- and then "pow" virtually the opposite turns out to be true -- classic GRRM.

But under your alternative (assuming I understand your theory, which maybe I don't, so clarify if I get it wrong), the readers will be led to believe the following, Lyanna was with Rhaegar voluntarily and agreed to marry him, but then, after learning of the circumstances of the war, she wanted to leave but Rhaegar kept her prisoner. Why do you think she wanted to leave and where did she want to go? She is at risk from both sides -- Aerys could use her as a hostage against the Starks and Robert would be enraged that she married Rhaegar and was carrying his baby. So I don't think they could come out publicly without great risk to Lyanna. And why would Lyanna blame Rhaegar for his father's actions? Or is it that she only turned against him when he agreed to go back to KL? But what would she expect him to do -- fight for the side that was trying to take down his family and the Targ dynasty? I just don't get how your alternative is more plausible than that she stayed voluntarily.

As to the ToJ location -- I don't get your distinction. You admit that three guys in a tower are good for keeping a woman out of sight but not defending. And that is the point of being at ToJ. No one thought that if they were found there and an army approached that the three KG could protect her. The point was to stay there in stealth-mode. That logic works just as well for Lyanna staying voluntarily as not -- and you also fail to mention that when Rhaegar leaves for KL, Lyanna probably is very pregnant, so moving to another location might not be easy -- but again, it is not clear that a safer location existed. So ToJ works equally well if she is there voluntarily or if she is being held as a hostage. In fact, if she is a hostage, then Rhaegar probably no longer needs to keep her safe from his family and can bring her anywhere that is under Targ control (especially with the KG guarding her as a prisoner -- what Targ loyal area would question them -- but if trying to protect her and their relationship, then no where would be safe).

The real bottom line, however, is that I just don't think Rhaegar and Lyanna have to be as important to the story as you suggest -- they don't really need their own complicated story. They really are just a plot device to make Jon the opposite of what he thinks he is -- rather than being a bastard-Stark, he is really a legit-Targ. That revelation to Jon (and maybe to other characters -- but I tend to think the main impact with be regarding Jon himself finding out the truth) is what the issue is really based on for this story. Beyond that purpose, making the story between Rhaegar and Lyanna too complicated is just unnecessary and not clear who would even know the details to tell (maybe a vision by Bran -- but why bother to get into so much detail about characters who are so removed from the real action).

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9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

The stylistic response is simply that for the benefit of readers who are not aware of other theories, it might be helpful to acknowledge their existence (given that they remain plausible, even if you prefer a different theory). For example, in the past when discussing Jon's "real" name, I give my position (in this case, Aemon), but acknowledge some of the other prominent theories regarding his Targ name (such as a male version of Visenya to complete the three heads with R's other two children at the time). I can understand, however, how tedious it would become to acknowledge every time that this theory is merely your preferred theory but that many others have alternative theories are also are plausible. It is just the certainty with which you express your view that seems a bit more conclusive than the evidence supports.

What can I say? Aren't my postings already far too long and tedious to read through? Assuming people even bother to do that?

I occasionally mention interesting rival theories I do like but not subscribe to, but in this thread the majority of the people do not need to get a reminder of other theories on the subject, no?

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

As far as my substantive response, I will start by clarifying that you have not convinced me. I simply doubt that the story needs to be made that complicated, as the details don't really matter anymore -- what matters is the basic nature of Jon's heritage (as the "legitimate" son of Rhaegar and Lyanna). I don't see why the story needs to be made more complicated as none of those characters are still alive at this point in the story.

Well, until ADwD and TWoIaF that was basically my approach, too. But then we got the party of Aerys and the party of Rhaegar at court, forced incest marriages because of prophecies, news about Ashara and 'a Stark', a stillborn daughter, Aerys' people believing the coronation of Lyanna did not actually enrage the Starks but was instead a ruse for a plot of Rhaegar's with the Starks, etc.

The back story is clearly not yet been told in full, and there are unknowns in this equation. A proper theory should at least consider that possibility and then try to include some of those potential 'unknowns' in their own theories. Believing we already know everything (even about that stuff we know at least some at this point) isn't something we should do.

At least not in my opinion.

It is also clear, I think, that Rhaegar and Lyanna will get their own story. They might be dead, but when the story is over we'll know them as well as many of the characters who lived through the series - both through memories and tales about them as well as through visions (via Bloodraven and Bran).

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

Your theory also seems to be a case of "overthinking" matters. In story, the characters generally express a belief that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. The "truth" that will be revealed (I think) is that this version of events never happened. Rhaegar did not keep Lyanna against her will (whether he grabbed her to protect her and then got romantic or they planned to get together from the beginning, I don't know, but the "official" story certainly is not accurate). So the readers are led to believe one set of facts -- and then "pow" virtually the opposite turns out to be true -- classic GRRM.

Here, I think, you are oversimplifying things. George already gave us the subtlest clues that Robert (the only guy telling us 'the rape story') is wrong there. But this doesn't mean we have only two alternatives - the rape story and the fairy-tale love story. Romance can be a spectrum, and George's love stories aren't all happy.

A surprise could thus be that Dany and Robert have the right of it to different degrees. We'll have to wait and see.

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

But under your alternative (assuming I understand your theory, which maybe I don't, so clarify if I get it wrong), the readers will be led to believe the following, Lyanna was with Rhaegar voluntarily and agreed to marry him, but then, after learning of the circumstances of the war, she wanted to leave but Rhaegar kept her prisoner. Why do you think she wanted to leave and where did she want to go? 

Oh, there are two parts to this. First, I think, that their love kind of soured once the war Starks died and the war started. I mean, you would have to be utterly, well, mad to only care about fucking each other while the world burns around you. That makes no sense at all for either of those characters. Lyanna stands up for Howland Reed of all people. Why should be think she would want to see her the people of Westeros killing each other over her?

And Rhaegar aspires to be king. He should not put his head in the sand but do something to prevent his people killing each other.

But I don't think that was the end of their love. I think they stuck together and were indeed on the run from Aerys (not the rebels, they were a non-issue during the first half of the war, especially in the Riverlands and the Reach and Dorne). But the idea that Lyanna cheered Rhaegar on when he decided to wage war against her brother(s) and Robert simply makes no sense to me. 

Nor does the idea that Lyanna would want to sit out such a war in the middle of nowhere. She simply doesn't have the personality for that. She is pampered, dialed-up version of Arya. An Arya completely secure in her role as the princess of the North. 

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

She is at risk from both sides -- Aerys could use her as a hostage against the Starks and Robert would be enraged that she married Rhaegar and was carrying his baby.

Rhaegar should be capable of protecting his wife from his father. Lyanna's use as a hostage is obviously non-existent. The Targaryens had her the entire war, but the prospect of Rhaegar or Aerys killing her did not stop the rebels.

And Robert is a non-issue here. I agree that he might not like what Lyanna did, but she could still address Eddard Stark, her brother - and he is the one marrying Catelyn Tully, not Robert. If Ned and with him Hoster had decided end the rebellion, Robert's cause would have died.

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

So I don't think they could come out publicly without great risk to Lyanna. And why would Lyanna blame Rhaegar for his father's actions? Or is it that she only turned against him when he agreed to go back to KL? But what would she expect him to do -- fight for the side that was trying to take down his family and the Targ dynasty? I just don't get how your alternative is more plausible than that she stayed voluntarily.

She would not have blamed him for Aerys' actions as such, but if your father-in-law killed your father and brother I assume your relationship to and feelings for your spouse would get at least 'complicated', no? Not to mention she may have blamed herself and Rhaegar for what had transpired - had Rhaegar not 'abducted her' (assuming she was complicit in the thing - and only Rhaegar if she had indeed been abducted) Rickard and Brandon would still be alive and there wouldn't be a war.

But later, when Rhaegar decided to actually defend the madman and his throne she may have not been willing to support him in this. I mean, if this was such a great love story then why wasn't Lyanna with Rhaegar? Or at least closer to him - with friends at Harrenhal or Maidenpool? Just dumping her in the middle of nowhere is at least odd.

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

As to the ToJ location -- I don't get your distinction. You admit that three guys in a tower are good for keeping a woman out of sight but not defending. And that is the point of being at ToJ. No one thought that if they were found there and an army approached that the three KG could protect her.

But there is no reason to believe that this was the point why she was at the tower and only with three KG. It could be the case, but there is no reason that they couldn't have dyed her hair and hidden her with the Daynes at Starfall, say, or at some other castle where Rhaegar had friends.

Keeping her away from maesters and ravens and lords also has the effect that she cannot try intervene or influence the war. Cannot send messages to Ned or Robert. And the Kingsguard are the men most likely to obey Rhaegar to the letter - other men might be willing to persuaded or bribed or threatened by a woman like Lyanna Stark - daughter and sister to a great lord, and betrothed to a man who would topple the Targaryen dynasty. Not to mention the future queen if she was actually married to Rhaegar.

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

The point was to stay there in stealth-mode. That logic works just as well for Lyanna staying voluntarily as not -- and you also fail to mention that when Rhaegar leaves for KL, Lyanna probably is very pregnant, so moving to another location might not be easy -- but again, it is not clear that a safer location existed.

She cannot have been that pregnant when Rhaegar left, due to the time passing between him leaving and her death - unless we assume Jon was already weeks or months old when she died.

And it also makes no sense that Rhaegar would leave her when she was so pregnant, or that he would take a woman in the advanced stages of her pregnancy to a tower in the middle of nowhere. All that would be irresponsible and weird.

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

So ToJ works equally well if she is there voluntarily or if she is being held as a hostage. In fact, if she is a hostage, then Rhaegar probably no longer needs to keep her safe from his family and can bring her anywhere that is under Targ control (especially with the KG guarding her as a prisoner -- what Targ loyal area would question them -- but if trying to protect her and their relationship, then no where would be safe).

See above. Not if he feared she would do or tell things with other people close-by that those people were not supposed to hear. Lyanna isn't a person to be easily cowed.

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

The real bottom line, however, is that I just don't think Rhaegar and Lyanna have to be as important to the story as you suggest -- they don't really need their own complicated story.

They already have.

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

They really are just a plot device to make Jon the opposite of what he thinks he is -- rather than being a bastard-Stark, he is really a legit-Targ.

Nay, for that they could just be two names in a family tree, about as important to the plot as Lyarra Stark is at this point. But they are not. Rhaegar is especially important for a lot of stuff due to prophecy stuff (which didn't need to be given to him at all).

9 minutes ago, UnmaskedLurker said:

That revelation to Jon (and maybe to other characters -- but I tend to think the main impact with be regarding Jon himself finding out the truth) is what the issue is really based on for this story. Beyond that purpose, making the story between Rhaegar and Lyanna too complicated is just unnecessary and not clear who would even know the details to tell (maybe a vision by Bran -- but why bother to get into so much detail about characters who are so removed from the real action).

Well, you could say that about pretty much anything. Why did George waste pages on Tytos and Joanna and Aerys and Rickard and Brandon? Why bore us with stories of the Blackfyre rebellions and the War of the Ninepenny Kings or the Greyjoy Rebellion?

And, hell, why care about Jon's parentage at all? Isn't it more important what the guy does rather than who fucked whom to conceive him?

At this point it is clear that the story of the past (both the recent and the very distant past - Others, etc.) is as much part of the story as the actual story. And just as the main story continues we'll get more and more details on the past as well - and very few of that will only be window-dressing.

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On 7/15/2018 at 2:19 PM, Ygrain said:

But how? He wasn't calling the shots for the loyalists, Aerys was. On the Rebel side, Robert wouldn't be willing to listen, either, and I don't think Ned and Jon Arryn would side with Rhaegar against Robert.

Rhaegar was commanding the royal army when he came back, so at that point he was calling the shots (by the way, I think this kinda contradicts the whole "Aerys didn't trust his son" argument) and he chose to do nothing against his father, yet again.

I'm also not sure Robert would be so unwilling to listen: his hatred for Rhaegar comes from his belief the prince kidnapped and raped Lyanna, maybe if he knew differently (if things were in fact different, that is) he wouldn't be that angry and Jon Arryn and Ned would be able to talk him down.

On another topic, I always wondered how some people could call Ned and Robert traitors: Hoster Tully absolutely, Jon Arryn too to an extent but the other two... what were they supposed to do, give themselves up to be killed over nothing?

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1 hour ago, Geddus said:

Rhaegar was commanding the royal army when he came back, so at that point he was calling the shots (by the way, I think this kinda contradicts the whole "Aerys didn't trust his son" argument) and he chose to do nothing against his father, yet again.

We have good evidence that Aerys didn't trust his son. But, sure, there has to be a story as to why and how Rhaegar got back into the good graces of his father and how it came to be that Aerys II decided to allow his son to command an army. In the scenario we have this is not a given.

My idea would be that Aerys did indeed think Rhaegar was part of the 'Stark conspiracy' and Rickard, Brandon, and their companions and fathers and Robert/Ned had to go because they were Rhaegar's accomplices. That also explains why the Rebellion got momentum because Aerys and his court were searching for Rhaegar, expecting Rhaegar's buddies to rise up and Rhaegar to lead them, etc. They did not think Jon Arryn or Robert were or would be core elements in this rebellion.

Aerys may have suddenly decided to see Rhaegar as his loyal son again when the facts confirmed that he did neither lead nor join the rebellion that had broken out - and when there was tangible evidence that the Lyanna abduction thing was real and indeed something that caused the rebels (especially Robert) to want Rhaegar's head as much as Aerys'.

That would have been around the time Aerys decided to make Jon Connington his Hand because he couldn't find Rhaegar. Appointing Connington also sent a message to Rhaegar.

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

I'm also not sure Robert would be so unwilling to listen: his hatred for Rhaegar comes from his belief the prince kidnapped and raped Lyanna, maybe if he knew differently (if things were in fact different, that is) he wouldn't be that angry and Jon Arryn and Ned would be able to talk him down.

It is difficult to imagine that Robert would have listened, considering we have reason to believe his heart hardened against Rhaegar already after Harrenhal. That said, Robert wasn't the Rebellion all by himself. If Lyanna had talked to Ned and if Ned had pulled out of the rebellion, drawing the Tullys (and perhaps even Jon Arryn) out of it, Robert would have been finished. Keep in mind that Robert raised only a modest host of Stormlanders and had lost most/all of those men by the time he was hiding in Stoney Sept. If the Northmen and the Riverlords had pulled out, Robert would have been left with whatever Stormlanders he still had (and been incapable to raise more) and, perhaps, the Vale men Jon brought into the Riverlands. That wouldn't have been enough to stand against Rhaegar.

And it is really not the case that the Lyanna-Rhaegar marriage thing couldn't have profited House Stark or made Ned happy because his sister was happy. Ned would have to choose between his friend and his sister, of course, but chances are that he would have preferred his sister over his friend if his sister had been the one to explain things to him.

And it is very odd indeed that she never did so. Rhaegar's single most powerful propaganda tool in this world actually was Lyanna and her words. Her publicly declaring that she didn't love Robert, that he could go fuck himself or some whores, and that she was happy with the Prince of Dragonstone who never abducted her at all, etc. could have helped his cause a lot.

Which makes it odd that this, apparently, never happened. Lyanna isn't with Rhaegar when he confronts the rebels. Perhaps because she refused to take sides, or because she refused to support Rhaegar in his war against her brother(s) and Robert?

But it makes really no sense that Rhaegar himself would not at least try to contradict the rape story. If he married Lyanna he would have said so, there is pretty much no reason to keep this thing a secret. He is fighting a war against a man who calls him a rapist and whose justification for the war largely rests on the fact that he wants to avenge the honor of his betrothed.

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