R+L=J v.165

[Bael's Bastard]

34 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Targaryens are not yet overthrown at this point, they are still clinging on to DS and likely lords who are now Stannis' bannermen still supporting them. Dorne as well. 

Also it was never the intention to Replace targs, especially with Robert. 

That's simply not true. Robert was selected between the rebel leaders, and proclaimed his intention to take the throne around the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar was killed at the Battle of the Trident, and Aerys and Aegon were dead by the time Ned arrived in King's Landing to capture the city in Robert's name. When Ned lifted the siege of Storm's End, the Tyrells and Reach lords bent the knee to Robert. That all happened before Ned discovered Jon. Ned didn't give a shit about Targaryen claims. He rebelled against the Targaryens and fought to overthrow them to install a new regime. You've got Ned all wrong if you think it was in his character to assert Jon's claim if he knew he was a legitimate son of Rhaegar.

[Bael's Bastard]

36 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Even Stannis has chosen duty to family when faced with a hard choice. If Jon wasn't a bastard Ned could easily have overthrown Robert if it came to blows. He still had his army at his back, fighting the war's last few battles in the south. Hoster would support him, loyalists as well. It doesn't need to be a war either, he can convince Robert to stepdown and claim it for himself and reveal Jon's parentage sometime after and proclaim him to be the king and become hand.

He did nothing to place Jon on throne means Jon really was a bastard, or at least Ned believed so.

There is no validity to any of these assertions. And your own logic destroys your argument, as your version of Ned, who believes Jon is a bastard otherwise he would place him on the throne, didn't do shit to place undisputed legitimate Viserys on the throne.

[Ser Leftwich]

“Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?”

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. “He would do whatever was right,” he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. “No matter what.”

- AGoT (some Jon chapter, you all know this like the backs of your own hands)

The day already came. What did Ned choose between honor and love? Save (love) the boy or honor the claim?

(Notice Jon's lame answer. And Aemon's endorsement of the lame answer.)

[Ser Leftwich]

One thing to keep in mind is how Ned got his reputation as so very honorable. He likely didn't have it before the Robellion. He was a second son from the north that most people didn't know. How would his reputation have come to be beforehand?

During the war he: 1) honored the old tradition and married his dead brother's fiancee, 2) spoke against murder of children, 3) took home his 'bastard' son, 4) brought back Dawn in person, 5) called for Jaime to go the Wall, 6) probably other things that I am forgetting and things we don't know about.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The context makes it clear. It is not a confirmation that Jon Snow is Rhaegar Targaryen's bastard - and we don't know why he thinks about Jon there, or whether he thinks Rhaegar lusted after Lyanna producing Jon. He could just as well have that idea because lust led to the conception of Barra. Ned's visit with her mother apparently brought back memories of Lyanna in her tower - another young woman with another young child fathered by another royal.

I agree that this isn't a confirmation that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's bastard, but it does appear pretty apparent from the context of this quote the Eddard thinks of Jon Snow as a bastard.  He pictures Jon Snow and then wonders why the Gods both disaproved of bastards and also put lust into the heart of men.  I don't see any other way to interpret this passage.  He doesn't picture Barra and then think of bastards, he pictures Jon. 

[Frey family reunion]

49 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

As far as I can recall, Ned never calls Jon a bastard, or thinks of Jon as a bastard. We don't know whether Ned believed Jon to be a bastard, or knew him to be legitimate. It is certainly possible that Ned believed Jon to be a bastard, but we don't know, and this quote doesn't tell us.

It seems pretty apparent that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard in this quote.  He sees Robert's bastard, then he pictures Jon and laments about the lust in men and the gods disfavor of bastards. 

50 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

What we do know is that Ned's wondering about the gods frowning on bastards despite filling men with such lusts occurs in the context of a visit to the mother of one of Robert's bastards, and occurs right before he asks Littlefinger what he knows about Robert's bastards.

Yes, and in this same context of visiting Robert's bastard he thinks of Jon and laments on men making bastards and gods disapproving of them.

[Lord Varys]

I'd follow @Bael's Bastard line of arguments here. The context implies or allows for Ned to think about Jon while he visited another woman who had recently born the child of a royal.

It can be seen as implying Jon might be a bastard, but then more Ned's bastard than Lyanna's - since he mostly thinks in the framework of his lie about Jon's parentage, not admitting in his mind that the boy is not his son.

48 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

That's simply not true. Robert was selected between the rebel leaders, and proclaimed his intention to take the throne around the Battle of the Trident. Rhaegar was killed at the Battle of the Trident, and Aerys and Aegon were dead by the time Ned arrived in King's Landing to capture the city in Robert's name. When Ned lifted the siege of Storm's End, the Tyrells and Reach lords bent the knee to Robert. That all happened before Ned discovered Jon. Ned didn't give a shit about Targaryen claims. He rebelled against the Targaryens and fought to overthrow them to install a new regime. You've got Ned all wrong if you think it was in his character to assert Jon's claim if he knew he was a legitimate son of Rhaegar.

I think we have to differentiate between Robert declaring his intention to take the throne and him actually doing that.

At this point there is no indication for us to believe Ned had agreed to murder all the Targaryens between Robert Baratheon and the Iron Throne.

[Frey family reunion]

44 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Ned also wonders if Rhaegar frequented brothels and he comes up with the answer no.

 

44 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's not really in terms of Jon's supposed bastardy that he is thinking. He just left the brothel where met yet another one of Robert's bastard's. If he thinks that Rhaegar frequented brothels, then yes, the quote works. 

That is interesting isn't it.  Ned thinks of Jon in terms of being a bastard and being the product of the lust of men, but doesn't think of Rhaegar as someone who frequents brothels.  Now how could those two thoughts be reconciled...

Well you could assume that Ned thinks of Rhaegar as lustful, but doesn't think Rhaegar would stoops so low as to go to a brothel to satisfy his lusts.  Only highborn girls for Prince Rhaegar.

Or you could assume that Ned doesn't think of Rhaegar as lustful, yet for some reason he pictures Jon and thinks of bastards and the lust in the heart of men.  Perhaps Ned doesn't think that Jon is Rhaegar's bastard.

Or a third option may exist where Ned's thoughts of Rhaegar not needing to frequent brothels has nothing to do with whether or not Rhaegar is lustful.  After all, at the time Ned is the one frequenting brothels, yet he's not doing it out of lust.  He's looking for royal bastards, bastards with the blood of a king.  Perhaps Ned has reason to believe that Rhaegar may have also spent time looking for royal bastards, but didn't need to go to brothels to find them.

[Frey family reunion]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd follow @Bael's Bastard line of arguments here. The context implies or allows for Ned to think about Jon while he visited another woman who had recently born the child of a royal.

It can be seen as implying Jon might be a bastard, but then more Ned's bastard than Lyanna's - since he mostly thinks in the framework of his lie about Jon's parentage, not admitting in his mind that the boy is not his son.

Except for the fact that Ned just doesn't just think of bastards when he thinks of Jon, he thinks of the lusts in the hearts of men.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

Except for the fact that Ned just doesn't just think of bastards when he thinks of Jon, he thinks of the lusts in the hearts of men.

Which is what led to Barra's conception. And possibly also to the war. Not (only) because Rhaegar lusted after Lyanna but also because Robert lusted after Lyanna.

[Bael's Bastard]

19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It seems pretty apparent that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard in this quote.  He sees Robert's bastard, then he pictures Jon and laments about the lust in men and the gods disfavor of bastards. 

Except it isn't apparent that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard, as there is not a single place in the book where Ned actually thinks of or calls Jon a bastard.

Barra's mother asks Ned to tell the king how beautiful Barra is, and Ned promises he will, then thinks of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

Barra's mother then asks him to tell the king a number of other things, and Ned says he will tell him, then promises her that Barra will never go wanting, to which she "smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him."

Then comes Ned seeing Jon's face in front of him. Then comes the thought about the gods and bastards, and then comes Ned asking Littlefinger what he knows about Robert's bastards.

Ned's promise to Barra's mother, and Barra's mother's smile in response to his promise, are reminiscent of what we learn in Ned's very first chapter in AGOT:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." (AGOT: Eddard I)

[The Twinslayer]

58 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Ned also wonders if Rhaegar frequented brothels and he comes up with the answer no.

It's not really in terms of Jon's supposed bastardy that he is thinking. He just left the brothel where met yet another one of Robert's bastard's. If he thinks that Rhaegar frequented brothels, then yes, the quote works. 

Just because a man does not frequent brothels does not mean he does not take a mistress or father bastard children.  Consider this quote from Jamie:

"Jamie left brothels and whores to his brother Tyrion:  Cersei was the only woman he had ever wanted."

By your logic, this would be proof that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are not Jamie's children.  In fact, it means that Jamie (like Rhaegar) prefers sleeping with a highborn lady who is promised to someone else rather than visiting brothels.

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Except it isn't apparent that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard, as there is not a single place in the book where Ned actually thinks of or calls Jon a bastard.

Barra's mother asks Ned to tell the king how beautiful Barra is, and Ned promises he will, then thinks of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

Barra's mother then asks him to tell the king a number of other things, and Ned says he will tell him, then promises her that Barra will never go wanting, to which she "smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him."

Then comes Ned seeing Jon's face in front of him. Then comes the thought about the gods and bastards, and then comes Ned asking Littlefinger what he knows about Robert's bastards.

Ned's promise to Barra's mother, and Barra's mother's smile in response to his promise, are reminiscent of what we learn in Ned's very first chapter in AGOT:

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers." (AGOT: Eddard I)

You're making my point for me.  Ned sees the mother of Robert's bastard who elicits a promise from him, he thinks of Lyanna.  He leaves the brothel then he thinks of Jon which makes him think of bastards and lusts in the heart of men.  Ned's visit with the mother of Robert's bastard makes him think of both Lyanna and Jon.  Thinking of Jon makes him think of bastards and the lust in the heart of men.  This is consistent with Ned thinking of Jon as Lyanna's bastard, and thinking that Jon was conceived due to the lust in the heart of Jon's father.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

11 minutes ago, The Twinslayer said:

Just because a man does not frequent brothels does not mean he does not take a mistress or father bastard children.  Consider this quote from Jamie:

"Jamie left brothels and whores to his brother Tyrion:  Cersei was the only woman he had ever wanted."

By your logic, this would be proof that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are not Jamie's children.  In fact, it means that Jamie (like Rhaegar) prefers sleeping with a highborn lady who is promised to someone else rather than visiting brothels.

How is it that by my logic Jaime is not the father of Cersei's children? I don't even get how you arrived to this conclusion.  

There are pages on Ned's thoughts after he leaves the brothel. Can't pick and choose what you want when there's so much more going on. Ned is making a distinction between Robert and Rhaegar. One acts on his lusts, the other one, he doesn't believe he did. There's nothing in his thoughts that says Rhaegar prefers sleeping with highborn ladies. 

[Starkz]

Ned probably didn’t know for certain whether or not Jon is a bastard unless someone specifically told him they married.

[Bael's Bastard]

10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think we have to differentiate between Robert declaring his intention to take the throne and him actually doing that.

The distinction is noted, but not pertinent to the poster's hypothetical, as both had occurred by the time Ned learned about Jon and any Targaryen claim he might have had, and besides, Ned had already renounced the Targaryens and their claims, rights, and successions long before either of those things, when "they had ridden forth to win a throne" (AGOT: Eddard I).

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

At this point there is no indication for us to believe Ned had agreed to murder all the Targaryens between Robert Baratheon and the Iron Throne.

He clearly didn't believe that the death of all Targaryens was necessary to placing Robert on the throne. Rhaegar was killed at the Battle of the Trident, and it seems likely that Aerys would have been properly executed had they captured him alive, but Ned was furious about the murder of Rhaegar's children at the time it happened, presumably before he is aware of Jon, and is vehemently against the murder of Daenerys and her unborn child in AGOT.

[Bael's Bastard]

39 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You're making my point for me.  Ned sees the mother of Robert's bastard who elicits a promise from him, he thinks of Lyanna.  He leaves the brothel then he thinks of Jon which makes him think of bastards and lusts in the heart of men.  Ned's visit with the mother of Robert's bastard makes him think of both Lyanna and Jon.  Thinking of Jon makes him think of bastards and the lust in the heart of men.  This is consistent with Ned thinking of Jon as Lyanna's bastard, and thinking that Jon was conceived due to the lust in the heart of Jon's father.

Not really. That is extremely convoluted logic, which a simple reading of the quote doesn't make apparent or likely. There is no reason to think that his thoughts about Lyanna or Jon have anything to do with bastards, other than Robert's nature and fathering of bastards, which is what turned Lyanna off to him in the first place. In fact, his first thought of Lyanna is how she didn't think Robert to keep to one bed, her reveal that she knew he had fathered a bastard, and her belief that love wouldn't change his nature. Enter Robert's newest bastard daughter out of apparently over a dozen.

[Frey family reunion]

26 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Not really. That is extremely convoluted logic, which a simple reading of the quote doesn't make apparent or likely. There is no reason to think that his thoughts about Lyanna or Jon have anything to do with bastards, other than Robert's nature and fathering of bastards, which is what turned Lyanna off to him in the first place. In fact, his first thought of Lyanna is how she didn't think Robert to keep to one bed, her reveal that she knew he had fathered a bastard, and her belief that love wouldn't change his nature. Enter Robert's newest bastard daughter out of apparently over a dozen.

 It seems pretty straightforward to me.  He think of Jon, which makes him think of bastards, which makes him think of lust in the hearts of men.  Jon = bastard = conceived by a lustful father.   I think you have to go through some contortions to get it to mean anything else.  We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Except it isn't apparent that Ned thinks of Jon as a bastard, as there is not a single place in the book where Ned actually thinks of or calls Jon a bastard.

Also, one thing: Ned made Jon live the life of a bastard. Hence, thinking about Jon in connection with other bastards comes natural even without Jon actually being one.

[SFDanny]

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

We don't know how much time preceded Lyanna's dying scene, so she might have had the time to divulge some details.

Thanks for your response, Ygrain, Always good to see your posts and read the points you make. Especially, when we may disagree or you make a new point I had not thought of. It helps me rethink things and look for mistakes I may have made.

First, yes, we don't know how much time Ned and Lyanna have together before her death. This, of course, cuts both ways. We can't be assured there is much time at all, and we can't rule out they had days in which to discuss things. But let's look at the quote in question.

Quote

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, and the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They hashed found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it" (AGoT 49) bold emphasis added

What we have here is a description of Lyanna's last moments in which Ned gives her his promises. We don't know how much time they had before this, but they had almost none after. All of the time described has Lyanna struggling with the effects of a fever and loss of blood. I think it unlikely that they had much time together, but it can't be ruled out just because we have no evidence they did. If the time was short, as described in the quote above, and Lyanna is preoccupied with extracting the promises she needed from Ned right up to her death, I think it unlikely she spends much of her last moments telling her brother of her marriage to Rhaegar, but that is indeed an assumption I'm making.

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

From the top of my head, there are three clue that might be pointing to Ned knowing (in no way conclusive, but allowing for the option):

- Ned's thoughts about the promise when Robert bashes Rhaegar's honour (could merely point to the relationship being consensual but that would still be dishonoring Lyanna)

I'm not exactly sure which instance you are referencing here, but I'm guessing this is a reference to the discussion amongst the Barrows of the First Men. Correct me if I'm wrong. Could you say how this would bolster the case Ned knows of a marriage?

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

- Ned's shame when he suddenly wishes to talk to Jon in the black cells (could merely reflect Ned lying)

I take this as strong evidence that Ned very much regretted not being able to speak to Jon again and tell him the truth of his mother, and perhaps his father as well. Yes, if that includes Ned lying about being Jon's father, then I think it is very much a part of that shame. It also could absolutely include knowledge of a marriage, but it doesn't have to do so.

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

- the ToJ scene with the KG insisting that they have a duty at ToJ (not going into the whole clusterguck of a debate here)

Let's just agree that it is entirely possible a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna factors into the actions of Hightower, Dayne, and Whent. If so then it is possible either Ned finds that out afterwards either from Lyanna or whoever else was there.

All of which would point to a position of it could be possible for Ned to have been told about a marriage, or it is possible he was not. However, my reasons for believing Ned does not know really doesn't depend on any of these things. If this was it, then I would just say "who knows" and wait for more information. But two things push me into the position of thinking he doesn't know.

First, we have all argued Ned's thoughts as he is riding away from seeing little Barra. Mostly, in earlier discussions this was around whether or not this proved Ned was thinking of HIS bastard son when he thinks of Jon. I think that is a huge mistake to make. Said so many years ago, like many posters, and still believe that. But it doesn't mean he doesn't think of Jon as someone else's bastard. Not that he would use that word directed towards Jon. His view on this is clear before we even read a Eddard chapter. As Catelyn tells us in her first chapter:

Quote

"Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood and that is all you need to know" (AGoT 72)

Trueborn or not, Ned will defend Jon against anyone. Even his wife. But that obviously doesn't mean he is ignorant of the position of children born out of wedlock. I think the most straightforward interpretation of Ned's thoughts about Jon on that ride from Barra is that he is thinking about the lot of bastard children, and in Jon's case that likely means Ned is thinking of Jon as someone's bastard son. All evidence strongly pointing to Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard son. Not that I think he is illegitimate (I hate that word when applied to human beings, especially children) but even in the sense of being born out of wedlock, I think other evidence shows it is likely Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. It is only that I think Ned doesn't know this.

Which brings me to the last nagging point that throws me into the camp of those who believe Ned thinks Jon is born a bastard.

Ned's decision to send Jon to the Night's Watch. Jon asks for this, and the Starks firmly believe this is an honorable life for anyone - trueborn or bastard. I just can't get passed the fact that Ned would allow Jon to take the vows of the Night's Watch without telling him who he is. He is allowing Jon to give up any claim to any type of noble life, not just a claim to the throne, but also a life of a trueborn son of Lyanna Stark, without telling him what he is giving up. This seems extremely against the Ned we know.

I know, I have argued that his priority is to keep Jon alive, and I think that is absolutely right. However, Jon must know the truth if he is to make a real choice. I think if Ned knows of a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna he would tell Jon before he takes his vows.

Now, as usual, there is a caveat. We don't really know if the plan was to allow Jon to take his vows when he did. When Jon goes to the Night's Watch he is accompanied by his Uncle Benjen and it is possible that the plan is to tell Jon but Benjen is lost before that could happen. 

So, all of which is to say, there is this argument on one side and another on the the other. I fall on the one side because my last two points push me over.

I will have to get back to LV, later as I'm off to run errands. Thanks to all for very interesting posts, and I shall be back later.