R+L=J v.165

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

I suppose, but that is the literal version we're given in the Knight of the Laughing Tree story, I'm still expecting that to get subverted in some way.

Oh, the story just implies that there is a love story coming there. The question is how far did it go at Harrenhal, and goes a straight line from there to the abduction or are there quite some twists and turns.

I have a certain difficulty to imagine Lyanna as being keen to become Rhaegar's whore, never mind how much she might have been in love with him. Even if they had talked about marriage, Lya would have just been Rhaegar's Alys Harroway. That's not something one would want, nor something that was likely to win them cheers.

In that sense, my take is that Lya may have made it clear that Rhaegar was certain 'a great guy' and all, but he already had a wife and children and should be a real man and go back to them, rather than chase after her skirts like a horny little schoolboy. After all, she herself was betrothed to Rhaegar's cousin, and while not happy with Robert, she would not bring dishonor on her family by behaving like stupid child.

The coronation could then be some sort of, well, desperate attempt by Rhaegar to show how much Lyanna meant to him, etc. And from there things go to the abduction - which may very well have been done against Lyanna's wishes and knowledge - although it may be that she really liked that it happened when it happened and enjoyed the whole thing until it killed her father and her brother, and plunged the Realm into war.

Once there was war and death, the love would be pretty much gone. No sane person sees Lyanna mounting her dragon prince with the knowledge that her father and brother have been killed by this man's father - and his people were just right now trying to kill her other brothers and her betrothed.

1 hour ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Great point, Dany-Drogo was incredibly cringey right up to the moment where you saw a little bit of unexpected sweetness and depth, although it unavoidably remained pretty cringey throughout but less brutally so. I guess if anyone can evoke mixed feelings about this kind of thing it's George!

The issue is just that Lya is so young at Harrenhal, and the age gap so big.

But if we see Lya as another Arya - a privileged Arya, raised as the princess of the North - then she likely would have done only what she wanted, even at the age of 13-14.

The fact that such a woman remained at a tower in the middle of nowhere of her own free will is about as likely as Arya doing that. Do we see Arya doing that? No, we don't.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 9/28/2018 at 6:06 PM, Lord Varys said:

On 9/28/2018 at 6:06 PM, Lord Varys said:

 

 

I just had a mental image of Rhaegar grunting at Lyanna in deep guttural and inquisitive "No's" till she just gave in and rolled over hahahhahah

[Frey family reunion]

On ‎9‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 8:06 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, the story just implies that there is a love story coming there. The question is how far did it go at Harrenhal, and goes a straight line from there to the abduction or are there quite some twists and turns.

I have a certain difficulty to imagine Lyanna as being keen to become Rhaegar's whore, never mind how much she might have been in love with him. Even if they had talked about marriage, Lya would have just been Rhaegar's Alys Harroway. That's not something one would want, nor something that was likely to win them cheers. 

In that sense, my take is that Lya may have made it clear that Rhaegar was certain 'a great guy' and all, but he already had a wife and children and should be a real man and go back to them, rather than chase after her skirts like a horny little schoolboy. After all, she herself was betrothed to Rhaegar's cousin, and while not happy with Robert, she would not bring dishonor on her family by behaving like stupid child.

The coronation could then be some sort of, well, desperate attempt by Rhaegar to show how much Lyanna meant to him, etc. And from there things go to the abduction - which may very well have been done against Lyanna's wishes and knowledge - although it may be that she really liked that it happened when it happened and enjoyed the whole thing until it killed her father and her brother, and plunged the Realm into war.

Once there was war and death, the love would be pretty much gone. No sane person sees Lyanna mounting her dragon prince with the knowledge that her father and brother have been killed by this man's father - and his people were just right now trying to kill her other brothers and her betrothed.

I think the problem with this scenario is that it goes against Rhaegar's basic nature.  From all indications Rhaegar was about duty above all else.  The association made between Baelor the Blessed and Rhaegar by the people that knew him at King's Landing is telling.  If Rhaegar believed that either he or his son were the Prince that Was Promised, then he also believed that the Long Night was almost upon them.

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But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, "It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady.  But where is the prince that was promised?"

In other words, Aemon associated the coming of the prince that was promised with the war for the dawn.  Which means he associates it with the Long Night.  And if Aemon believes this, then it's a good bet that Rhaegar believed it as well. 

So it's doubtful in my mind, that with Rhaegar believing that an was apocalypse on the horizon, that he would waste time in pursuing a love affair, especially with a girl basically unknown to him. 

So if Rhaegar indeed had a relationship with Lyanna, then it should have been in furtherance of the war for the dawn. 

So if R+L= J, then  the scenarios should be:

1) Rhaegar kidnaps and rapes Lyanna, and forces her to carry the child to term because he believes that the child is necessary for the upcoming war of the dawn; or

2) Rhaegar seduces Lyanna and misleads her as to his intentions to convince her to conceive and give birth to a child which will be somehow used in the upcoming war for the dawn; or

3) Rhaegar brings Lyanna into the fold and convinces her of the coming of the Long Night, and convinces her that she and her unborn child will play a major role.

If the Scenario 1 is true, then Robert is right, Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and probably raped her a number of times.  The problem with this scenario is that Eddard seems to lay at least part of the blame of Lyanna's fate towards her wildness, her "wolf blood".  If Lyanna is kidnapped and raped against her will then this seems like an unjustified accusation.

If Scenario 2 is true, then this would fall more in line with Viserys' version of events, that, at least in all appearances, Rhaegar seduces Lyanna and they run off together sparking the events that lead up to the rebellion.  The problem with this version, is that it appears to run contrary to what we know of Lyanna and her character.  Her primary criticism of Robert is that he will never keep to one bed.  If so, then it would be more than a little hypocritical for Lyanna to run off with a married man, and either become his mistress or become his second wife.  Now this would not be the first time that a young person's hormones could get in the way of her ideals, so perhaps.  But from all accounts Lyanna was less starry eyed Sansa, and more Arya.  (Of course there is Lyanna's sniffles at Rhaegar's song, it would be interesting to know what song Rhaegar was playing).  The other problem is trying to figure out when this seduction of Lyanna takes place.  Does it take place at Harrenhal?  If so how?  Was it the short time that Rhaegar goes to look for the mystery knight?  It seems unlikely that it occurs after he crowns Lyanna because at that time all eyes would have been on Rhaegar and Lyanna.  It is doubtful that the Stark boys would not have notices further interactions between the two.  Then Rhaegar heads off to Dragonstone for the birth of his son, and Lyanna probably heads back to Winterfell, or perhaps the Eyrie.

So then we turn to the third scenario, which is the one that I lean towards.  Lyanna is somehow introduced into Rhaegar's secret society who's purpose is to prepare for the War for the dawn.  And in doing so Lyanna is convinced that she and her unborn child will play a part in this War.  This would explain that Lyanna's "wildness" leads her to her fate.  She willingly runs off with Rhaegar and his merry band.  But if this version is true, the question is how does Lyanna get indoctrinated?

I think that there are two people who are present and in a position to lead her down this road.  One wittingly, and one perhaps unwittingly.  At the Harrenhal tournament, two outsiders become part of the Stark inner circle.  One is Howland Reed.

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Under Harren's roof, he ate and drank with the wolves, and many of their sworn swords besides, barrowdown men and moose and bears and mermen.

The other was Ashara Dayne:

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If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

Howland Reed had just spent a fairly lengthy time at the Isle of Faces, learning their magic and their knowledge.  Part of the Reeds historical oath to the Starks is sworn on ice and fire.  The Song of Ice and Fire might very well have been taught to Lyanna from Howland Reed.

It is likely that Ashara Dayne was a part of Rhaegar's inner circle, considering that she is the sister to Rhaegar's closest confidant, Arthur Daye, and she is a lady in waiting to Elia, the mother of the Prince that was Promised.  So if Rhaegar believed that Lyanna was to play a part in the war to either prevent or end the Long Night, then Ashara having become a part of the Stark inner circle, she would have been in the best position to have convinced Lyanna of her significant role in this war.  This might also explain why Ned reacts so venomously to being asked about Ashara.  Perhaps it has more to do with Ashara's role in leading Lyanna down this road, and less to do with her being rumored to be Jon's mother.

 

Now having said all this, I'm still not convinced that Rhaegar is Jon's father.  It assumes too much at this point.  Until we're fully aware of what the Song of Ice and Fire is, we can't know what role Lyanna's child was supposed to play.  Was he supposed to be the third head of the dragon?  Or did Rhaegar have darker, more secretive plans for a child who possesses King's Blood?

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Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter.  Two Kings to wake the dragon.  The father first and then the son, so both die Kings.  The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester aemon had cleaned his wounds.  Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking.  Aemon had demurred.  "There is power in a king's blood," the old Maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this."  The king can be harsh and unforgiving, aye, but a babe still on the breast?  Only a monster would give a living child to the flames.

 

[SFDanny]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So it's doubtful in my mind, that with Rhaegar believing that an was apocalypse on the horizon, that he would waste time in pursuing a love affair, especially with a girl basically unknown to him. 

So if Rhaegar indeed had a relationship with Lyanna, then it should have been in furtherance of the war for the dawn. 

So if R+L= J, then  the scenarios should be:

1) Rhaegar kidnaps and rapes Lyanna, and forces her to carry the child to term because he believes that the child is necessary for the upcoming war of the dawn; or

2) Rhaegar seduces Lyanna and misleads her as to his intentions to convince her to conceive and give birth to a child which will be somehow used in the upcoming war for the dawn; or

3) Rhaegar brings Lyanna into the fold and convinces her of the coming of the Long Night, and convinces her that she and her unborn child will play a major role.

I don't disagree that each of your three are possible, but your listings make the mistake, in my opinion, of viewing this through an absolutist lens. By which I mean Rhaegar's motives doesn't have to be based on just one reason. He can have multiple influences in what moves him to do what he does. Most people are, and many of Martin's characters are as well. Belief in prophecy doesn't necessarily mean that love doesn't also influence his actions. Indeed, we are given multiple sources that tell us that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, AND that Rhaegar believed his family to be part of the prophecy concerning the Prince that Was Promised. Both can be true at the same time. There is no fundamental contradiction between the two.

I also don't agree that we are limited in number to your three possibilities. There are two basic, understandably different, points of view on why Rhaegar "kidnapped" Lyanna that are advanced. We are told the first by Robert and by Bran when they speak of kidnapping and rape. The second is the Targaryen view as told by Daenerys when she thinks on her impending marriage. 

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Another procession had come up beside her own, and Hizdahr zo Loraq was smiling at her from his own sedan chair. My king. Dany wondered where Daario Naharis was, what he was doing. If this were a story, he would gallop up just as we reached the temple, to challenge Hizdahr for my hand.

Side by side the queen's procession and Hizdahr zo Loraq's made their slow way across Meereen, until finally the Temple of the Graces loomed up before them, its golden domes flashing in the sun. How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could no help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. (ADWD 577) bold emphasis added

In this version, no doubt learned from Viserys, we have Rhaegar carrying off Lyanna for love. Not only that, but it is contrasted with Daenerys being rescued from a wedding she wants to stop, but can't for political reasons. The question the reader should be asking upon reading this passage is just when is the wedding of Lyanna to Robert scheduled to take place? In the wake of the events at Harrenhal, has Lord Rickard put the marriages of Brandon and Lyanna on a fast track to avoid royal interference? I think given other information it is likely this is what is going on, and the kidnapping starts out as a rescue of Lyanna from a wedding she does not want. Think of it as option four for you list. An option that includes love, politics, and perhaps prophecy as all being part of Rhaegar's motivations. Other options can be added as well.

[Frey family reunion]

47 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

By which I mean Rhaegar's motives doesn't have to be based on just one reason. He can have multiple influences in what moves him to do what he does. Most people are, and many of Martin's characters are as well. Belief in prophecy doesn't necessarily mean that love doesn't also influence his actions. Indeed, we are given multiple sources that tell us that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, AND that Rhaegar believed his family to be part of the prophecy concerning the Prince that Was Promised. Both can be true at the same time. There is no fundamental contradiction between the two.

Possible of course, but what exactly is the basis behind our knowledge of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna?  Until we're given additional evidence there seems to be an extremely limited amount of actual interaction between Rhaegar and Lyanna before her alleged abduction.

  And the source of the belief that Rhaegar loved Lyanna is fairly sketchy.  We have Dany's POV, which relies on stories she was told by Viserys:

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Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories.  The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails.  Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying from the woman he loved.

But of course this is being told through the filter of Viserys, who should be treated as skeptically as Robert who paints Rhaegar as an abductor and rapist.  We simply don't know the source of Viserys information.  For all we know Viserys is merely painting the most flattering picture of Rhaegar, as the romantic who died for his lady love, Lyanna.

Then we have Kevan Lannister's belief:

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If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided?  Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes ... and with such a wife, Rhaegar might have never looked twice at Lyanna Stark.  The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

But how much insight does Kevan really have on any of these events.  Once again we have to be suspect of the source we're receiving this information from.  Kevan makes an assumption that Rhaegar turned to Lyanna because he was unhappy with the number of children that Elia could have given Rhaegar.

Then we have Barristan, who by his own admission was not a close confidant of Rhaegar:

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Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things.  The Red Keep had its secrets too.  Even Rhaegar, the Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne.  Harrenhal was proof of that.  The year of the false spring...

If I had been a better knight ... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty...

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell.  Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice.  Not the queen, who was not present.  Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided.  His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia's companions ... though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

So even here, Barristan doesn't exactly opine as to why he thinks Rhaegar chose Lyanna.  Perhaps we can assume that Barristan believes that Rhaegar chose Lyanna for the same reason that Barristan would have chosen Ashara.  But Barristan when given the chance, does not presume to know Rhaegar's motivations in crowning Lyanna:

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"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark the queen of love and beauty!" said Dany.  "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed.  How could he do that?  Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?"

"It is not for such as me to say what might have been in your brother's heart, Your Grace.  The Princess Elia was a good and gracious lady, though her health was ever delicate."

When Dany echoes Viserys' statement that if she had been born earlier, early enough to have been Rhaegar's wife, things would have turned out differently, Barristan seems unsure of this:

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"If I had been born more timely, he said, Rhaegar would have married me instead of Elia, and it would all have come out different.  If Rhaegar had been happy in his wife, he would not have needed the Stark girl."

"Perhaps so, Your Grace."  Whitebeard paused for a moment.  "But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy."...

"... there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense ..."

"... of doom.  He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days."

"It was the shadow of Summerhall that haunted him, was it not?"

"Yes.  And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best."

These passages should give us doubt that Rhaegar pursued Lyanna out of love or romance.  It simply was not part of Rhaegar's nature, to be happy or perhaps to even pursue happiness. 

Instead we learn that Rhaegar's obsession was Summerhall, which was a tale of grief, and fire, and of dragons.

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"Did we learn nothing from Summerhall?  No good has ever come from these dreams of dragons,..."

So even in Barristan's halting account of what happened, we still don't get a clear picture of a love affair between Rhaegar and Lyanna.  Instead we are painted a picture of someone obsessed with Summerhall.  So it seems logical that Rhaegar's story arc is a furtherance of this obsession.  So my guess is that Rhaegar names the tower of joy, not because it was where he had his beloved hidden away, but instead the tower of joy is associated with what Rhaegar loved best, Summerhall and Summerhall in turn is associated with a dream of dragons.

The two POV's that are in the best position to know the true nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna don't give us any information to help us discern the nature of Rhaegar's relationship with Lyanna.  Eddard never expresses an opinion of Rhaegar other than his thought that Rhaegar was probably not someone who frequented brothels. 

Jon Connington, who apparently may have had some unrequited(?) feelings for Rhaegar, only thinks that Elia was not worthy of Rhaegar.  He never thinks about Rhaegar and Lyanna at all.

So I don't think we can jump to the conclusion that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, just like we can't jump to the conclusion that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

The question the reader should be asking upon reading this passage is just when is the wedding of Lyanna to Robert scheduled to take place? In the wake of the events at Harrenhal, has Lord Rickard put the marriages of Brandon and Lyanna on a fast track to avoid royal interference? I think given other information it is likely this is what is going on, and the kidnapping starts out as a rescue of Lyanna from a wedding she does not want.

An interesting notion, but it rings false to me.  Politically arranged marriages are not an outlier in Westeros.  They are the norm.  In fact it's highly unusual for a marriage to occur that wasn't arranged out of politics.  From what I recall, the only marriage that isn't given as political in present day Westeros is Doran's. 

So why does Rhaegar choose Lyanna, out of all of the politically arranged marriages in Westeros, to sweep down and save her from this loveless, political union?  Against her family's obvious wishes, and which any reasonable person would conclude could lead to open warfare between one of the Great Houses in the land?  And all of this in the backdrop of an oncoming Long Night?

This scenario really doesn't hold up to close scrutiny.  Assuming that Rhaegar truly believes that the Long Night is coming, and assuming that Rhaegar truly believes it is up to him to help win the war for the dawn, any major decisions, like running away with the daughter of a major lord almost certainly, in Rhaegar's mind, has to be associated with stopping this upcoming apocalypse.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Until we're given additional evidence there seems to be an extremely limited amount of actual interaction between Rhaegar and Lyanna before her alleged abduction.

None in canon, in fact, unless you count him giving her the crown of roses, and her smile dying... or (even weaker) Rhaegar singing (to a group), and her weeping (in response to the song). 

While that's action, it doesn't seem very inter.

[SFDanny]

On 10/1/2018 at 3:12 PM, Frey family reunion said:

So I don't think we can jump to the conclusion that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, just like we can't jump to the conclusion that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her.

You leave out a couple of important quotes. We have Ser Barristan saying directly that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. 

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Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. (ADwD 875) bold emphasis added

This is important for a couple of reasons. This is Selmy's internal thoughts on the subject. He has no reason to lie to himself about how Rhaegar felt about Lyanna, so we have no reason to not believe this is what Ser Barristan thinks to be true, unfiltered by stories fed from Viserys. While it is also true that Ser Barristan does not have, by his own admission, the relationship with Rhaegar that Ser Arthur had, it is also true that he was around Rhaegar in the days after the prince came north from the tower of joy. Given Ser Barristan's duties, we have every reason to believe that Selmy's view of Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna come from sources close to Rhaegar, if not the prince himself.

Here it is important to note that what Rhaegar felt for Lyanna is not necessarily what Lyanna felt for him. I would not expect Selmy would be much of a source for her feelings or the history between the two. That he has an informed opinion about Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna is a separate question.

One should also quote Viserys's story told to Dany in which he explicitly tells her of Rhaegar's love for Lyanna.

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Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. (AGoT 24-25) bold emphasis added

Viserys gets this tale from somewhere, mostly likely his mother, but it is important that it agrees with Ser Barristan's view. It is not a creation of Viserys, but a view shared by Targaryen supporters.

But it is not only a Targaryen viewpoint that tells us of Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna. Indeed, Dany's own view on Rhaegar's love for Lyanna is not only informed by stories from her brother, but also from her vision in the House of the Undying in which she sees Rhaegar's death and his last words. What is the source of the vision? The Gods? Magic tricks? We can't say, but it isn't from Viserys. And, just because I know you love semi-canon sources, let me remind you that Martin's approved app confirms it is Lyanna's name he utters as he dies at the Trident. Does that prove Rhaegar loved Lyanna? No, but it sure does support the idea he did.

@Frey family reunion we don't disagree about jumping to the conclusion that the Targaryen view is right and Robert's view is wrong. The point is there is lots of evidence that the Targaryens viewed Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna to be motivated by love. Which viewpoint is right? That's for the reader to decide. For me, the deciding factor is not just the widely held view that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but the lack of ill will towards Rhaegar from Ned. If Ned believed as Robert does, then he should hate Rhaegar the rapist and kidnapper of his beloved sister as much or more than Robert does. Yet he views Robert's hatred as a "madness" and something that reason and the passage of years cannot change. That is what is commonly called a clue.

[SFDanny]

14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

An interesting notion, but it rings false to me.  Politically arranged marriages are not an outlier in Westeros.  They are the norm.  In fact it's highly unusual for a marriage to occur that wasn't arranged out of politics.  From what I recall, the only marriage that isn't given as political in present day Westeros is Doran's.

We agree that political marriages are the norm in Westeros. If Rhaegar married Lyanna for love it is one of the few in Westerosi history, but not unique. But again, it isn't a question of just a political marriage or political motivations behind the kidnapping. It can be political and motivated by love and prophecy at the same time. I've long advocated for a political understanding of Rhaegar's motives at Harrenhal and in the taking of Lyanna, but that doesn't rule out love.

 

14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So why does Rhaegar choose Lyanna, out of all of the politically arranged marriages in Westeros, to sweep down and save her from this loveless, political union?  Against her family's obvious wishes, and which any reasonable person would conclude could lead to open warfare between one of the Great Houses in the land?  And all of this in the backdrop of an oncoming Long Night?

From a political standpoint, Rhaegar does so because his interests don't align with those of Lord Rickard's alliances. If one believes Rhaegar creates the tourney at Harrenhal in order to try to win the lords of Westeros to removing his father and putting Rhaegar himself on the throne, then one has to asked what was the response from the Starks, the Arryns, the Tullys, the Baratheons, and the Lannisters to his proposal? It seems clear to me that Rhaegar meets with rejection at Harrenhal, not because these great Houses stand steadfast with Aerys, but because they make it clear they have plans and interests of their own. If one looks at the crowning of Lyanna as a political act, which it certainly was even if it was also a act of love, then one has to say by crowning Lyanna Rhaegar sends a message counter to Rickard's plan to marry his daughter into House Baratheon. Rhaegar makes good on that message when he "kidnaps" Lyanna. The simple answer to your question is that Rhaegar has no interest in allowing Rickard's alliances to come into fruition. Not for reasons of politics, not for reasons of prophecy, nor for reasons of love.

14 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

This scenario really doesn't hold up to close scrutiny.  Assuming that Rhaegar truly believes that the Long Night is coming, and assuming that Rhaegar truly believes it is up to him to help win the war for the dawn, any major decisions, like running away with the daughter of a major lord almost certainly, in Rhaegar's mind, has to be associated with stopping this upcoming apocalypse.

He obviously believes he needs to have one more child, and we are told as much that the child isn't coming from his sickly wife. Is it a contradiction that it should come from a woman he loves? I don't think so. Let me be frank. I think the "kidnapping" starts out as a rescue based on Lyanna's plea for help to stop her marriage to Robert. I think Rhaegar is honor bound to help her escape the marriage because of his use of Lyanna to send a message at Harrenhal. It is also in his political interests to do so. And it is also in his understanding of the needs of prophecy to do so. And it also is very likely motivated by his personal feelings toward Lyanna. That it is all of these things together is not a contradiction, but a reflection of real complexity.

[SirArthur]

16 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

He obviously believes he needs to have one more child, 

Well ... I don't know. It would be interesting to know the sigil of house Targaryen before Aegon I. Variations of the sigil are known, e.g. a golden and a black dragon. In contrast to that house Velaryon and house Celtigar have different sigils not featuring a dragon, although they were from Valyria. 

The reader assumes the three heads of the dragon refer to Aegon and his sisters. But if the sigil is older, it may very well refer to a mystical creature like a Hydra. And that is my point, we do not know what Rhaegar means with the three heads and if he really means siblings.

Is Rhaegar really trying to recreate Aegon the conqueror, the assumed source of the sigil ? What is the point of that ? No, the sigil must be older and if connected to AA (as Rhaegar assumes), the meaning can be quite different than reenacting Aegon. 

So, is Rhaegar really believing he needs one more child ? Why him and not ... say Aerys II ? 

[Bael's Bastard]

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Well ... I don't know. It would be interesting to know the sigil of house Targaryen before Aegon I. Variations of the sigil are known, e.g. a golden and a black dragon. In contrast to that house Velaryon and house Celtigar have different sigils not featuring a dragon, although they were from Valyria. 

Neither the Targaryens in Valyria nor the pre-Conquest Targaryens on Dragonstone before Aegon I had heraldic banners, so I doubt they had a sigil.

Heraldic banners had long been a tradition amongst the lords of Westeros, but such had never been used by the dragonlords of old Valyria. When Aegon's knights unfurled his great silken battle standard, with a red threeheaded dragon breathing fire upon a black field, the lords took it for a sign that he was now truly one of them, a worthy high king for Westeros. (TWOIAF: The Reign of the Dragons - The Conquest)

The Velaryons and Celtigars might have been from Valyria, but they were not from the forty families of dragonlords, so they would have been "posers" if they had tried to link themselves to dragons. The Targaryens were, but, as the quote above notes, heraldic banners had never been used by the dragonlords.

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

The reader assumes the three heads of the dragon refer to Aegon and his sisters. But if the sigil is older, it may very well refer to a mystical creature like a Hydra. And that is my point, we do not know what Rhaegar means with the three heads and if he really means siblings.

I doubt the sigil is older. It seems much more likely that there is a prophecy of a three headed dragons, which Aegon interpreted as applying to he and his three sisters, or their three dragons, or themselves and their dragons together, but which both Aemon and Rhaegar appear to speak of as having yet to be fulfilled centuries later.

Whether Aegon or Rhaegar believed the prophecy said it must be siblings, or whether Aegon just applied it to siblings because he thought it was he and his sisters, or Rhaegar thought it was siblings because he already had two children in two years, or Rhaegar thought he or Viserys could be the third, or that his parents could still have the third, who knows?

Aemon seems to think his age, rather than his being the brother of Daenerys's great-grandfather rather than her sibling, is the main detriment to him being a head of the dragon. But who knows if Aemon is accurately informing us that the prophecy doesn't specify siblings, or is mistaken, whether because of his sorry state, or a mistaken interpretation?

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Is Rhaegar really trying to recreate Aegon the conqueror, the assumed source of the sigil ? What is the point of that ? No, the sigil must be older and if connected to AA (as Rhaegar assumes), the meaning can be quite different than reenacting Aegon. 

I don't think so, personally. He should have named his eldest child Visenya if he was just trying to copy Lord Aerion on creating Aegon and his two sisters (whether or not he should have copied him on his alleged bastard Orys). But Rhaegar could have been trying to fulfill the same thing that Aegon was trying to fulfill, assuming Aegon was trying to fulfill something, and assuming he failed, or Rhaegar interpreted him as having failed.

4 hours ago, SirArthur said:

So, is Rhaegar really believing he needs one more child ? Why him and not ... say Aerys II ? 

Rhaegar believes Aegon is TPTWP. So I guess the main question is whether he sees TPTWP as being one of the three heads, or TPTWP being separate from the three heads? Because at the time of his statement, there were three sets of siblings:

- Aerys and Rhaella 
- Rhaegar and Viserys
- Rhaenys and Aegon

For him to say there must be another at that time, indicates that he believed another needed to be produced other than the six Targaryens that were already alive, whether that meant he or his parents having another, whether he believed they must be siblings, or some mix of parents, siblings, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces, whatever. And what he believed, one way or another, doesn't necessarily mean he was correct.

 

[SirArthur]

3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Because at the time of his statement, there were three sets of siblings:

- Aerys and Rhaella 
- Rhaegar and Viserys
- Rhaenys and Aegon

And even that is just an assumption, as we do not know if Daella or Rhae still lived at the time of the rebellion. If that was the case, we would have another pair with Aemon. My point is it is pure speculation what Rhaegar meant by "there must be another" and not obvious that he has to father a new child. 

[Bael's Bastard]

45 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

And even that is just an assumption, as we do not know if Daella or Rhae still lived at the time of the rebellion. If that was the case, we would have another pair with Aemon. My point is it is pure speculation what Rhaegar meant by "there must be another" and not obvious that he has to father a new child. 

That Rhaegar believed he had to have a third child is by far the safest assumption based on the context of his statement. His statement that "there must be one more" didn't occur after the birth of his brother Viserys in 276 AC, but upon the birth of his second child and only son Aegon, whom he believed to be The Prince That Was Promised, as corroborated by Aemon. So while we don't know for sure, hence why we are discussing it, it is by far the simplest explanation of what Rhaegar believed, whether or not Rhaegar was correct in his belief.

[Magnar, P.I.]

On 9/28/2018 at 6:06 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, the story just implies that there is a love story coming there. The question is how far did it go at Harrenhal, and goes a straight line from there to the abduction or are there quite some twists and turns.

It's at least strongly implied I would say, as Dany, Viserys and Barristan all talk about Rhaegar loving Lyanna without any mention of rape. It's not a huge surprise that the female perspective is being glossed over here as that's sadly par for the course not only in the story but in actual history. Still, it seems clearly meant to lead us towards it being some kind of fairy tale romance. 

As for the timing, this part always seemed off to me as well. Wasn't there a year between Harrenhal and the kidnapping? Wasn't Rhaegar's second child born in between this? I suppose an obsession with prophecy would explain this, if his wife couldn't produce the third child he thought was necessary then he would logically need to turn elsewhere. However if romance is the driving reason this makes no sense. I guess, as someone else posted, that you can be motivated by multiple things at once, and neatly packaged answers don't seem like George's style anyway. 

On 9/28/2018 at 6:06 PM, Lord Varys said:

The fact that such a woman remained at a tower in the middle of nowhere of her own free will is about as likely as Arya doing that. Do we see Arya doing that? No, we don't.

Well out of stubbornness I could see Arya doing just about anything, actually... except for missing out on a war to go die in childbirth

[Ygrain]

5 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

It's at least strongly implied I would say, as Dany, Viserys and Barristan all talk about Rhaegar loving Lyanna without any mention of rape.

Ned's thoughts on  multiple occasions are not consistent with the rape version, either.

5 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

It's not a huge surprise that the female perspective is being glossed over here as that's sadly par for the course not only in the story but in actual history.

I don't think anything is being glossed over, it's just that Rhaegar was known by many while Lyanna's feeling could be reported only by Ned or Benjen, or Bran via the weirnet. Ned's PoV would have made for a pretimely revelation and the other options are clearly meant for much later in the books. - That said, I do believe that Ned's thought provide veiled hints that Lyanna actually made her own choice and chose Rhaegar over Robert, but with no further corroborating information, the case is not as strong as for Rhaegar loving Lyanna.

5 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

Still, it seems clearly meant to lead us towards it being some kind of fairy tale romance. 

With a very non-fairy tale-like ending...

5 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said:

As for the timing, this part always seemed off to me as well. Wasn't there a year between Harrenhal and the kidnapping? Wasn't Rhaegar's second child born in between this? I suppose an obsession with prophecy would explain this, if his wife couldn't produce the third child he thought was necessary then he would logically need to turn elsewhere. However if romance is the driving reason this makes no sense. I guess, as someone else posted, that you can be motivated by multiple things at once, and neatly packaged answers don't seem like George's style anyway. 

I'd say that the prophecy led him away from Dragonstone, to look for some guidance for his problem, and gave him a pretext to follow the romance which he, being a dutiful guy, wouldn't have chosen solely to satisfy his feelings.

[SirArthur]

10 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Heraldic banners had long been a tradition amongst the lords of Westeros, but such had never been used by the dragonlords of old Valyria. When Aegon's knights unfurled his great silken battle standard, with a red threeheaded dragon breathing fire upon a black field, the lords took it for a sign that he was now truly one of them, a worthy high king for Westeros. (TWOIAF: The Reign of the Dragons - The Conquest)

The Velaryons and Celtigars might have been from Valyria, but they were not from the forty families of dragonlords, so they would have been "posers" if they had tried to link themselves to dragons. The Targaryens were, but, as the quote above notes, heraldic banners had never been used by the dragonlords.

I doubt the sigil is older. It seems much more likely that there is a prophecy of a three headed dragons, which Aegon interpreted as applying to he and his three sisters, or their three dragons, or themselves and their dragons together, but which both Aemon and Rhaegar appear to speak of as having yet to be fulfilled centuries later.

Just to pick this up, although I already replied to another part of your post. As far as I understand the situation we have around 100 years between the doom and the conquest and 200 years between the colonization of dragonstone and the conquest. (The time where the towers were build). 

Two questions arise:

1. the history of dragonstone before the colonization ? Especially the sigil. We have other Houses in the time period taking over older sigils: Baratheon, Hoare, possibly even house Strong. 

2. how do all the AA interpretations of the towers of dragonstone as the dragons woken from stone feel about this sigil ? Rhaegar thinks he is connected to AA, we assume Aegon and his sisters are connected to the prophecy because we assume Rhaegar tries to reenact them. The conclusion from our assumption is, the sigil is connected to the prophecy. 

How does the sigil not being older fit into our assumptions ? Maybe not as a sigil, but as a symbol or a location.

It's a contradiction to our idea that Rhaegar tries to reenact Aegon. And the text supports this. Rhaegar wants to fullfill the prophecy of AA in the first place and any 3-head connection that has to do with the prophecy. 

Conclusion: It is far more likely that the sigil is older than Aegons conquest or connected to the prophecy. 

A possible scenario: the sigil stands for the three towers of dragonstone. It is nicely connected to the Targaryens as a symbol (even after one generation) and can be interpreted as connected to AA. This is far better as a sigil than a personal trait, as most sigils are associated with locations and not persons. 

take this:

Rhaegar - born in Summerhall

Viserys - born in KL

Aegon - born on Dragonstone according to wiki ( I doubt the source because it only mentions date and not location, but whatever)

Rhaenys - born on Dragonstone

What is missing to connect the prophecy, the three towers and the Targaryens ? exactly, one birth at dragonstone. 

Yes, I realize that the missing Aegon's (Rhaegar) birth place is the problem here. But everything is connected: the prophecy, the 3 heads, the stone dragon(s). And the sigil/Aegon I only fits, if he is connected too. And within the idea that Rhaegar wants to have another child, he would also want to have the child born on Dragonstone. Either because out of reenactement or out of prophecy (born amidst salt and smoke). 

This is again a direct contradiction to the popular idea of Rhaegar's child at the ToJ. A reenactement should take place at Dragonstone and Rhaegar had every opportunity for that, as he controls that place. 

So if there "has to be one more", it either has to be one more child of Rhaegar at Dragonstone or something else. 

[The Sleeper]

On 9/24/2018 at 8:02 AM, corbon said:

I think they just prefer victim-complicit 'kidnappings' to non-consenting forced marriages. 

Removing a minor from their family's custody makes it an abduction without the need for quotation marks. Comparing one wrong to another does not justify much, particularly when one act is illegal and a potential casus beli.

It does however raises the possibility that is not often considered. That is that it wasn't Rhaegar that kidnapped Lyanna, but Lyanna run off on her own and either sought Rhaegar for sanctuary or his help to disappear. Rhaegar in a fit of gallantry made it look like he took her at swordpoint in order to preserve her honor. Or the plan was for Lyanna to simply disappear. It is not inconsistent with what little we know of the characters and it makes for a tale of relatable motives and good intentions going horribly wrong. It would also explained why they vanished to the back ass end of nowhere. 

The truth however, is that we have the two propaganda heavy official narratives and snippets from other people who they themselves have a second hand perspective. Nothing can be determined and nothing excluded, apart from the fact that this was the onset of a very big clusterfuck. 

[Ygrain]

4 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

It does however raises the possibility that is not often considered. That is that it wasn't Rhaegar that kidnapped Lyanna, but Lyanna run off on her own and either sought Rhaegar for sanctuary or his help to disappear. Rhaegar in a fit of gallantry made it look like he took her at swordpoint in order to preserve her honor. Or the plan was for Lyanna to simply disappear. It is not inconsistent with what little we know of the characters and it makes for a tale of relatable motives and good intentions going horribly wrong. It would also explained why they vanished to the back ass end of nowhere. 

Trust me, the variations of this possibility have been discussed very thoroughly in this thread :-)

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Trust me, the variations of this possibility have been discussed very thoroughly in this thread :-)

It is an intriguing possibility... That Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and that she was afraid Aerys would find out and sought Rhaegar's protection, or that Aerys had found out and ordered Rhaegar to bring her heart back in a box. 

[Bael's Bastard]

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Just to pick this up, although I already replied to another part of your post. As far as I understand the situation we have around 100 years between the doom and the conquest and 200 years between the colonization of dragonstone and the conquest. (The time where the towers were build). 

Two questions arise:

1. the history of dragonstone before the colonization ? Especially the sigil. We have other Houses in the time period taking over older sigils: Baratheon, Hoare, possibly even house Strong. 

I don't think there is any hint that another house, whether Westerosi or Valyrian, had a three-headed dragon as their sigil before House Targaryen made it theirs.

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

2. how do all the AA interpretations of the towers of dragonstone as the dragons woken from stone feel about this sigil ? 

If that is an interpretation some have, you would have to ask them.

7 hours ago, SirArthur said:

Rhaegar thinks he is connected to AA

That is not necessarily true.

Our Targaryens consistently speak of The Prince That Was Promised, never Azor Ahai, or Azor Ahai come again/reborn.

- Rhaegar states that Aegon is TPTWP in Daenerys's vision.
- Daenerys recounts that Rhaegar called Aegon TPTWP in her vision.
- Aemon asks Melisandre "but where is TPTWP?"
- Aemon tells Samwell that he believed Rhaegar was TPTWP, and that Rhaegar had shared his belief when he was young, until he became persuaded that his son Aegon was TPTWP.
- Aemon tells Samwell that Daenerys is the one, and that the dragons prove it
- Barristan tells Daenerys that Jaehaerys commanded Aerys and Rhaella to wed after a woods witch told him TPTWP would be born from their line.

The legendary past Azor Ahai and prophesied future Azor Ahai come again/reborn, on the other hand, come to us from Essosi characters such as Melisandre, Salladhor Saan, Benerro, and the Volantene Colloquo Votar. Maester Yandel goes so far as to tell us that it is the followers of R'hllor who claim that the name of the past hero whose tale has spread west from Asshai was Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return.

Consistent with that, it is Melisandre, not any of our Targaryens, who speaks of both Azor Ahai come again/reborn and TPTWP as if they one and the same. For all we know, these are two different prophecies or traditions that Melisandre, or the priesthood she belongs to, are conflating. And that is not even to say that she (or they) is wrong to do so. We don't know.

What we do know is that Rhaegar and these other Targaryens believed in a prophecy about TPTWP, but that does not mean that they associated those prophecies with the legendary past Azor Ahai or prophecies about Azor Ahai come again/reborn.

8 hours ago, SirArthur said:

we assume Aegon and his sisters are connected to the prophecy because we assume Rhaegar tries to reenact them. The conclusion from our assumption is, the sigil is connected to the prophecy.

How does the sigil not being older fit into our assumptions ? Maybe not as a sigil, but as a symbol or a location.

It's a contradiction to our idea that Rhaegar tries to reenact Aegon. And the text supports this. Rhaegar wants to fullfill the prophecy of AA in the first place and any 3-head connection that has to do with the prophecy. 

Conclusion: It is far more likely that the sigil is older than Aegons conquest or connected to the prophecy. 

No, as I already stated, I don't believe that Rhaegar was trying to reenact Aegon I and his sisters. but rather, that Rhaegar and Aegon I had both wanted to fulfill the same prophecies, which seem likely to have include TPTWP and a dragon with three heads. We can assume that Aemon, Jaehaerys II, Rhaegar, etc. did not believe Aegon and his sisters had fulfilled those prophecies, as there they were, more than two centuries after Aegon and his sisters had come and gone, still looking for the prophecies to be fulfilled in their own days. Aemon corroborates the Targaryen belief that "the dragon must have three heads."

8 hours ago, SirArthur said:

A possible scenario: the sigil stands for the three towers of dragonstone. It is nicely connected to the Targaryens as a symbol (even after one generation) and can be interpreted as connected to AA. This is far better as a sigil than a personal trait, as most sigils are associated with locations and not persons. 

take this:

Rhaegar - born in Summerhall

Viserys - born in KL

Aegon - born on Dragonstone according to wiki ( I doubt the source because it only mentions date and not location, but whatever)

Rhaenys - born on Dragonstone

What is missing to connect the prophecy, the three towers and the Targaryens ? exactly, one birth at dragonstone. 

Yes, I realize that the missing Aegon's (Rhaegar) birth place is the problem here. But everything is connected: the prophecy, the 3 heads, the stone dragon(s). And the sigil/Aegon I only fits, if he is connected too. And within the idea that Rhaegar wants to have another child, he would also want to have the child born on Dragonstone. Either because out of reenactement or out of prophecy (born amidst salt and smoke). 

This is again a direct contradiction to the popular idea of Rhaegar's child at the ToJ. A reenactement should take place at Dragonstone and Rhaegar had every opportunity for that, as he controls that place. 

So if there "has to be one more", it either has to be one more child of Rhaegar at Dragonstone or something else. 

We can assume that Aegon was born on Dragonstone, as that is where he was with Elia at the start of 282 AC shortly after his birth, and it is highly unlikely either of them were moved from a different location so quickly after his birth almost killed her.

We must distinguish between how Rhaegar believed the prophecies about TPTWP and the three heads of the dragons were or had to be fulfilled, and how the prophecies actually will be fulfilled (and we can assume they will be).

Even if TPTWP were to turn out to have been born on Dragonstone, that does not mean that Rhaegar believed that TPTWP or all three heads of the dragon had to be born on Dragonstone, whether or not what he did believe was correct.

Furthermore, Aemon and Rhaegar, who were no doubt well versed on the prophecy, and had discussed it together, had no issue believing that Rhaegar was the TPTWP despite being born at Summerhall, and not Dragonstone.

Rhaegar very well might have come to believe that TPTWP had to be born on Dragonstone, just as he changed his mind and came to believe that his son, not himself, was TPTWP. But that is as of yet without basis, as is the idea that he believed that his other children had to be born on Dragonstone.