R+L=J v.165

[Lady Barbrey]

On 10/6/2018 at 7:21 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I don't expect that Selmy has an informed opinion about the motivations of either Rhaegar or Lyanna.  After all, Selmy says it himself, he couldn't say what was in Rhaegar's heart when he crowned Lyanna over Elia.  I think the simple answer is that Selmy is a romantic.  He pictures himself giving the tourney crown to Ashara because he had a crush on her.  So he assumes that Rhaegar had the same motivation when he gave Lyanna the crown.  

Now a person who almost certainly had a crush on Rhaegar, Connington, never thinks about Lyanna at all.  Which is telling especially when he thinks about how Elia was unworthy of his "silver prince".  It's more likely that Connington was closer to Rhaegar than Selmy, and Connington may not think of any romantic connotations between Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Or at least he doesn't appear to be jealous of Lyanna's alleged relationship with Rhaegar, like he is with Elia's.

I'm calling BS on everything in the app being Canon.  Until I hear it from GRRM's own mouth, that Rhaegar said Lyanna, I'm going to chalk that up to fan fiction.  After all, why didn't Dany seem to recognize the name that Rhaegar uttered? 

I mean, Dany knows Lyanna's name, why the ambiguity?

 

It doesn't appear that Ned disapproves of Robert having killed Rhaegar.  In fact Eddard flat out tells Robert that he avenged Lyanna at the Trident.

If Eddard didn't think that Rhaegar's death was true vengeance for Lyanna, then he could have simply kept quiet.  Instead he reinforces Robert's belief that killing Rhaegar was vengeance for Lyanna.  I think what bothers Eddard is that Robert can't let his thirst for vengeance go with Rhaegar's death.  He is carrying it over to Rhaegar's family who are blameless.

 

I've heard this before and it seems to have a lot of traction on this board, but once again it doesn't seem reasonable to me.  The way to block a political marriage isn't by either kidnapping or luring away the bride to be.  If anything that is just going to further unite the two families against you.  It by all accounts is a declaration of war.  It's certainly not going to endear the Starks to your side.  If Rhaegar's goals were political, then he would have arranged a competing marriage proposal for Lyanna.  Viserys perhaps.  And if he simply wanted to prevent a wedding to Robert, by secretly luring her away, he wouldn't have made such a public spectacle at the Harrenhal tourney.

The only possibility that makes any sense to me, the only possibility that seems to fall in line with what we know about Rhaegar, is that Rhaegar's manipulation or wooing of Lyanna is related to what he believes her role is in the Song of Ice and Fire.  A song that he is apparently attempting to orchestrate.  

The fact that Eddard seems to find Lyanna somewhat at fault for her own fate, is that Lyanna must have become a willing participant of this conspiracy.  And the only one who would have been in a position to have brought Lyanna into the fold, is Ashara Dayne.  I think this might explain why Eddard acted so uncharacteristically angry at Cat bringing up her name.  (It's certainly not because she is Jon's actual mother).

 

10 hours ago, SFDanny said:

A Kingsguard who is around Rhaegar in what must be months in the building of his new army, and rides with him as critical part of Rhaegar's command at the Trident, isn't informed about Rhaegar's feelings towards Lyanna that have turned the entire world of Westeros upon its ass? It looks like ignoring critical evidence to me.

As to Connington, we haven't read his thoughts on Lyanna, but you assume that absence to mean he has none? On what basis is that? Now, unlike Ser Barristan, we know the former Lord Jon wasn't anywhere near Rhaegar from time of his appointment to be Hand to Rhaegar's death. That would limit his ability to know what Rhaegar was thinking about Lyanna and why Rhaegar took her or what he felt about her. Connington might well be a source for the happenings at Harrenhal and its immediate aftermath, but he is just plain left out of the loop after his exile.

First, I didn't call the app canon. I called it what the author called it - semi-canon. The same as he calls his own remarks, coming from his own mouth. The point is that the semi-canon source supports a large amount of evidence that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. As such, it is more evidence added to the already clear evidence of what the Targaryen view was about Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna.

Because the author didn't want to reveal the fact, at that stage in the story, that others thought Rhaegar loved Lyanna. He follows this scene with explicit opinions that that is Rhaegar's motivation. Call it a early clue that all might not be right is Robert's view of history.

Let's see? Could it be because Ned is hiding something important from Robert? No, not Ned who tells us in his own private thoughts of the lies he has lived and the price he has had to pay to keep them hidden? What do you think would happen to Ned and Robert's relationship if he told dear old, closer-than-a-brother Bobby that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and didn't want to marry him? Or that it was likely that Lyanna went with Rhaegar to escape the betrothal to Robert? Do you think those truths might endanger not only Ned's friendship with the king, but also the safety of all of Ned's family? And that doesn't even get to what would happen if Ned tells Robert what looks to be the truth about Jon.

I think here you are confusing a crown prince, who has his own agenda but little formal power, with the king. Rhaegar has no ability to arrange a marriage between anyone other than his own small children. Even Aerys has little formal role in arranging the marriages of the High Lords of the realm or their children. The last time we know a king did that was Aegon the Conqueror. Of course, he and his sisters had dragons to override the High Lords objections. Aerys does not. Instead Aerys has to resort to bestowing "honors" to people like Jaime to break the pending marriage pact between Jaime and Lysa. Much like Rhaegar does with Lyanna in crowning her his queen of love and beauty and thereby not only "honors" her, but also declares his own interest in preventing the match between Lyanna and Robert.

As I stated previously, I think you make the mistake of looking at this through an absolutist lens. It doesn't have to be just a question of what Rhaegar thinks prophecy is telling him might need to happen. He can be motivated by many things.

Why you think Ashara is in a position to bring Lyanna "into the fold" is beyond me. Do you know of a relationship between the two that the rest of us don't?

As to Ned's thoughts about Lyanna and her role in a "conspiracy" I do think it is important to note Ned shares none of this with anyone other than an off handed remark to his nine-year-old daughter.

 

On 10/6/2018 at 5:07 AM, Geddus said:

I thought I already did: being blinded by obsession, or by love, or being batshit insane doesn't mean being stupid. Concocting and executing a very stupid plan without those factors in play, on the other hand, kinda points in that direction.

As for Aerys, that's not what we were talking about: I was asking why would any lord inform the king of Lyanna's whereabouts if they didn't know he was looking for her.

Yeah, I don't get why you're telling me this. We don't know if Rhaegar's actions were idiotic because we don't know why he did what he did (and we don't really know what he did exactly, either): I was talking about the proposed theory that he wanted to protect Lyanna from Aerys so he thought the best way to do that was to disappear with her without telling anyone, making it look like he abducted her. That's not smart.

Other popular theories are that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna to fulfill some prophecy or that the two were madly in love and eloped: those would make the prince either crazy or irresponsible. Since by all accounts he was neither, I'm looking for something else (I can't come up with anything different than that, sadly).

I believe Rhaegar's belief in a prophecy that he must have three heads, three children to him, did play a role.  But I think people have the wrong girl.  

Because that's what happens at Harrenhal: no matter who won the tournament, the belle of the ball, the Queen of Love and Beauty, is not Elia or Lyanna.  It's Ashara Dayne. Sister of the Sword of the Morning, representative of new beginnings, springtime - ah, Camelot - Tis spring, tis spring, the merrie month of May. Tra la la and so on.

Thematically, Rhaegar should have crowned Ashara, Queen of the May, the Spring, the Morning, the beautiful Helen that's breaking  hearts left and centre.  

But this is a 'false spring', and in place of spring, he crowns the Queen of Winter. Lyanna Stark.

So what happened?

Rhaegar needed a new bride to hatch that third dragon kid, because he likely was told Elia shouldn't have any more, her pregnancies were so difficult. But the whole thing would be a very tricky business.  The kid had to be legitimate, meaning annulment or polygamy. He was fond of his wife, he wouldn't want to hurt her unduly, but just as importantly, it was crucial that he didn't offend Dorne to a point of separation or even war.  Thinking about all this, the best choice out of all women currently in his vicinity was another Dornish woman so Dorne isn't too upset, a possible friend to Elia as her lady-in-waiting and will get along with her in the future, also his best friend Arthur Dayne's sister, beautiful, with an illustrious name that could already boast Targaryen connections in the family tree. And thus, I suspect, Ashara Dayne was his chosen breeder for that third child, and he was laying groundwork to make things happen.  In love? Doubtful.  But I think he liked her and thought she'd be an asset.

So why doesn't he crown her Queen of Love and Beauty?

I expect because he finds out she's beginning or already having an affair with Brandon Stark. We know from Selmy she turned to one of the Starks, but 'turned to Stark', normally means the eldest, or given names are used as well, and his reference to fire means Wild Wolf Brandon to me cause I've never thought Quiet Wolf Ned very fiery but more muddy like Selmy (except with a sword!)

And Brandon's not a nice guy at all where women are concerned; he is, in fact, a player, as Barbrey implies, and George more or less confirmed in an SSM. Players are okay in Westeros: peasants, prostitutes, widows, even noblewomen after they've produced an heir and a spare are fair game. But strictly off limits are noble maidens. These young women are property and currency to their houses.  Play with them, you're playing with her family's honour, but you're also actually stealing alliances, property, settlements, influence - all the things a family hopes to gain with a marriage alliance. Once a noble maid's reputation is lost, a marriage - at least a decent one - goes phut, kabam, and you could set her whole House back a generation or two, not to mention the flipping dishonour of it all.

Dornish women might be a little freer sexually, and Arianne could probably have five bastards and still marry well because she'll be the queen, but the same rules for noble maids usually will apply for political reasons, and moreover Ashara is stony Dornish, culturally, we are told, more similar to the west and north than to Sunspear. So this matters.  It is serious stuff.

How do Rhaegar and Arthur find out? (I don't want to miss out Arthur, because this is his sister, and even without a proposed Rhaegar marriage, it's just as serious, and actually Whent too, because this is his family castle and the girl is dishonoured here in abrogation of guest rite). Anyone could have told them, but I expect behind 'anyone' we can find Varys and his little birds at work.  

We're told this gathering was actually meant to discuss a Regency for Rhaegar in light of Aerys's madness.  Aerys's lickspittle lords have a vested interest in undermining it, but the one person who would certainly want to sabotage it and has a whole flight of little spies at his disposal to make that happen is Varys. Varys has gone to great lengths to keep the realm off-kilter with a madman in charge but he doesn't want Aerys off the throne. There goes his job and influence, because Rhaegar's not keeping him around knowing the suspicions he has been feeding Aerys, and even if he does, Regent Rhaegar means stability and no profits for him and Illyrio. So Varys or minions are on the lookout to find those juste mot actions, just a bit of gossip, to break up any alliances between the noble houses that might agree to a Regency. That's why I suspect he had a hand in it.

What do Arthur and Rhaegar do about it? I expect Arthur says something to Brandon like hands off and Brandon says fuck you, I didn't do anything. And so when Rhaegar wins the tourney, there's a crown of blue roses ready, screaming Bael the Bard (that Rhaegar with his reading has likely read about, It's a famous story in the north), and stolen maiden, and stolen maidenhood, and he slips this wreath of stolen maidenhood onto the lap (not into her hands, nor on her head, but the image of a spear towards her lap is pretty clear) of Lyanna Stark.

Despite everyone's surprise, this should be flattering, and everyone wonders why Brandon starts back, looks furious, as if it's a threat not a compliment.

It is a threat.  It states very clearly, keep it up with Ashara, Brandon you asshole, and I'll take your sister, Lyanna.  

Thus, how politics were conducted at Harrenhal because of course, we can see things fracturing with this contretemps, if they weren't already.

Two or three months later ... Ashara Dayne confirms she's pregnant.  Raven sent to Brandon Stark. But Brandon Stark is about to marry Catelyn Tully in the Riverlands and he's not going to marry anyone not in accordance with dad's southron ambitions, and the Dayne house is about on par with Rhyswells and Dustins.  Why would he marry Ashara when he wouldn't marry Barbrey?

This is actually Arthur's show now, no Rhaegar-Ashara marriage in the cards now, but Rhaegar committed himself at Harrenhal, so with a few other  knights, Arthur, Rhaegar and Whent set off to the Riverlands in the worst possible weather, in order to halt the marriage, and force Brandon to marry Ashara and legitimize her child instead.

We're told they come across Lyanna Stark 'not ten leagues from Harrenhal'.  Like they found her by accident in a field or something.  Why is she 10 leagues from Harrenhal? Because she was likely staying at Harrenhal before going to her brother's wedding. With whom and why?  Probably visiting Oswell Whent's cousin, that girl that starts the tourney around the same age as Lyanna who has four brothers.  Lots in common. Was she actually 10 leagues from Harrenhal?  Probably not, she was more likely at Harrenhal. How did they know she was there?  Whent has been corresponding with uncle and cousins.

It seems kind of obvious.

Moreover, at this point they don't even have to abduct her or do anything.  She's cosily ensconsed with her friend. Just send a message to Brandon to say we're having tea and cake with your sister.  Reconsider your last answer and meet us at that inn 10 leagues from Harrenhal.

So at this point, something goes wrong with the message.  It's a common trope in Elizabethan and medieval lit - the mixed message, the tampered with message, the missing message or miscommunicated message.  Because for some reason Brandon heads off to Kings Landing shouting for Rhaegar, and mad King Aerys takes over.  I think it all happens fairly quickly, Rickard wasn't far from KL because travelling to the wedding.  Arthur and Co might still have been waiting for Brandon to arrive when they hear the news.  Lyanna's reputation is unsalvageable.  The Starks have been burned or throttled.

Massive clusterfuck.

This should have been a quiet little showdown, both women's reputations untarnished, Brandon and Ashara married, their child legitimate, all in a day's work for our knights nonpareil.

Not.

And lastly, I think, a message from Aerys, who has been led to believe Rhaegar is plotting against him and his interest in Lyanna at Harrenbal was part of the plot,  to Rhaegar.  We're told Aerys brought Elia and Rhaegar's kids to Kings Landing at the beginning of the rebellion as hostages against Dorne siding with the rebels.  Was that the only reason?  I think the message said: Take your Stark whore and disappear. Because if I hear one word from you, I will murder your wife and burn your children.

Rhaegar, Lyanna, Arthur and company ride for Dorne.  Confined at the ToJ.  Nobody abducted anyone. Rhaegar taking Lyanna is to keep her safe from Aerys, and keep his wife and kids safe.  And the rest, I think, despite the hard times ahead, is a love story.

 

 

[Seaserpent]

12 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

 

Not.

And lastly, I think, a message from Aerys, who has been led to believe Rhaegar is plotting against him and his interest in Lyanna at Harrenbal was part of the plot,  to Rhaegar.  We're told Aerys brought Elia and Rhaegar's kids to Kings Landing at the beginning of the rebellion as hostages against Dorne siding with the rebels.  Was that the only reason?  I think the message said: Take your Stark whore and disappear. Because if I hear one word from you, I will murder your wife and burn your children.

Rhaegar, Lyanna, Arthur and company ride for Dorne.  Confined at the ToJ.  Nobody abducted anyone. Rhaegar taking Lyanna is to keep her safe from Aerys, and keep his wife and kids safe.  And the rest, I think, despite the hard times ahead, is a love story.

 

 

I dont think this is correct, because Rhaegar came back to lead the army from Aerys, so he was not banned or something. So sending Rhaegar (plotter) with his army and only hope away to battle. . So i think Aerys knew that Rhaegar has a new woman and would not mind that Elia and the children were with him. I think that Aerys and Rhaegar were on speaking terms and were little bit in the same ship together. 

 

[corbon]

On 10/7/2018 at 1:07 AM, Geddus said:

Yeah, I don't get why you're telling me this. We don't know if Rhaegar's actions were idiotic because we don't know why he did what he did (and we don't really know what he did exactly, either): I was talking about the proposed theory that he wanted to protect Lyanna from Aerys so he thought the best way to do that was to disappear with her without telling anyone, making it look like he abducted her. That's not smart.

Other popular theories are that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna to fulfill some prophecy or that the two were madly in love and eloped: those would make the prince either crazy or irresponsible. Since by all accounts he was neither, I'm looking for something else (I can't come up with anything different than that, sadly).

Sorry, not aimed at you personally, just at the generality.

OTOH, you then repeat the same thing that I'm pointing out the flaw in, so I'll try to explain better.

If you (the general you, more than the specific you, though it applies in this case) think those actions make him crazy or irresponsible but he's clearly neither, and therefore those theories become untenable (but only for this reason), you should also look at the option that your assessment that those actions make him crazy or irresponsible isn't correct. He may understand the political, social or cultural (or other) landscape differently than you, and if so, he's more likely correct than you are, since its 'his' milieu, not yours.

Or to put it another way...
If a character is presented as intelligent and responsible, its better to assume that their actions are neither stupid nor irresponsible and look for a better understanding of the context, than to make social, political or cultural judgments that the actions are stupid or irresponsible.
Understanding the context may come from other theories (the path you are following) or from re-examining ones social, political or cultural assumptions (the alternate path I am suggesting be looked at as well).
I don't know which is correct. I just treat the idea that certain actions taken were stupid or irresponsible - when that goes against everything we are told about the people doing them - as rather suspect.

OTOH, for example, I'm quite happy to accept the idea that Brandon's performance at KL was both stupid and irresponsible, even though we have very little information about it. I accept this because it both fits with Brandon's described character (the wild wolf, the irresponsibility of sleeping with Lady Barbrey, the rage at Harrenhal etc etc) and with the somewhat independent in-milieu observation of Hoster Tully that the KL performance was gallant but foolish.

 

Edit: Lady Barbrey (forum poster)'s post above this one is a great example. Although I'm not in complete agreement with her scenario (so far at least), she's made an effort to understand and present a way in which the information we have about Rhaegar's known actions is maintained but makes them neither crazy nor irresponsible, just unlucky.

[Lady Barbrey]

4 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

I dont think this is correct, because Rhaegar came back to lead the army from Aerys, so he was not banned or something. So sending Rhaegar (plotter) with his army and only hope away to battle. . So i think Aerys knew that Rhaegar has a new woman and would not mind that Elia and the children were with him. I think that Aerys and Rhaegar were on speaking terms and were little bit in the same ship together. 

 

Hey seaserpent - nobody sees Rhaegar the entire year of the Rebellion.  Aerys likely knew where he was, the ToJ, but notice that it is not until Gerald Hightower personally goes to the ToJ on Arys's orders and tells Rhaegar to go back that Rhaegar joins in the war and is killed on the Trident.  Many of us have asked the question, where was Rhaegar during the Rebellion and why wasn't he fighting from the beginning, because it would be totally out of character for him to absent himself, doving and cooing with Lyanna Stark, while the war raged for a year no matter how in love with her.  He was a responsible guy. So my post posits why for the only reason I can think of that makes the most sense, to me at least.

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Hey seaserpent - nobody sees Rhaegar the entire year of the Rebellion.  Aerys likely knew where he was, the ToJ, but notice that it is not until Gerald Hightower personally goes to the ToJ on Arys's orders and tells Rhaegar to go back that Rhaegar joins in the war and is killed on the Trident.  Many of us have asked the question, where was Rhaegar during the Rebellion and why wasn't he fighting from the beginning, because it would be totally out of character for him to absent himself, doving and cooing with Lyanna Stark, while the war raged for a year no matter how in love with her.  He was a responsible guy. So my post posits why for the only reason I can think of that makes the most sense, to me at least.

Jaime's POV in AFFC tells us that Rhaegar could not be found after Aerys exiled Lord Merryweather, and that is why he "turned to the next best thing" and named Connington Hand. So Aerys couldn't find Rhaegar as late as the lead up to the Battle of the Bells, and only after the Battle of the Bells did Rhaegar return from the south.

[Lady Barbrey]

6 hours ago, corbon said:

 

Edit: Lady Barbrey (forum poster)'s post above this one is a great example. Although I'm not in complete agreement with her scenario (so far at least), she's made an effort to understand and present a way in which the information we have about Rhaegar's known actions is maintained but makes them neither crazy nor irresponsible, just unlucky.

I do think they were unlucky.  My scenarios might be imaginative but I tried to deduce logically not just from the evidence in the text but also on what would be consistent with the characters.  Rhaegar would not have abducted Lyanna because of an uncontrolled passion for her, and she would not have eloped with him for that reason either.  They're too aware of family honour (Lyanna beats the squires for family honour) and responsibility (all of Rhaegar's actions speak to responsibility). Moreover, I'm skeptical of the obsessive true love theme in GRRM's works because we haven't seen it anywhere it hasn't been twisted, like Jaime and Cersei's incestuous love, or Lisa's self-destructive love for Littlefinger. So I never believed a grand passion started between Rhaegar and Lyanna at Harrenhal.  Maybe an attraction though.

One thing I don't think George has stressed enough is what was a given in noble families about noble maidens, because he's got a number of them taking moon tea and lovers. But Sansa's situation gives a clue, because she comes close to being raped a few times, but her virginity is too important a currency in the overall picture.

I also thinks George plays with alternate scenarios.  Robb is in a political betrothal, but dishonours Jayne, and unlike Brandon, he does marry the girl.  This decision leads directly to the Red Wedding.

Lysa gets pregnant, her dad feeds her tansy for an abortion, she ends up twisted and indirectly many years later leads to Ned's death and the War of Five Kings.

Brandon is in a political betrothal, sleeps with two different noble maidens, one ends in not much but down the line a loss perhaps of a political ally for the Starks, and the other blows into his own horrible death and incites the Rebellion. Who is to say if he married Ashara and scorned Catelyn something equally horrible might have happened?

I think there's a message here: if you're a noble maiden, don't fall in love or have sex with anyone, and vice versa for the young noble men.

 

[Lady Barbrey]

2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Jaime's POV in AFFC tells us that Rhaegar could not be found after Aerys exiled Lord Merryweather, and that is why he "turned to the next best thing" and named Connington Hand. So Aerys couldn't find Rhaegar as late as the lead up to the Battle of the Bells, and only after the Battle of the Bells did Rhaegar return from the south.

Oh okay, thanks. My first instinct was likely correct, that he just banished him, but I was trying to think why Hightower could have found him.

[Ygrain]

On 10/7/2018 at 4:21 AM, Frey family reunion said:

After all, why didn't Dany seem to recognize the name that Rhaegar uttered? 

Quote

“Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.”

I mean, Dany knows Lyanna's name, why the ambiguity?

In case it escaped your attention, the whole scene is left purposefully ambiguous. A blue flower, a stone beast.... yet a couple chapters later, we learn that Dany did identify the flower, as a blue rose. Dany knows that Rhaegar supposedly "died for the woman he loved", knows about "his northern girl" whom he "carried off at swordpoint". The one and only female name that would make sense to Dany in this context is Lyanna. If she couldn't recognize the name at all, she wouldn't know it was a female name. If the name was completely unrelated to Rhaegar, she would wonder later why the hell he said "Susan" as his last word. If it was "Elia", she would have thought that he must have loved her, after all, when Barristan claims that he was "fond of " Elia.

[Sly Wren]

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

n case it escaped your attention, the whole scene is left purposefully ambiguous. A blue flower, a stone beast.... yet a couple chapters later, we learn that Dany did identify the flower, as a blue rose.

The meaning of the scene is ambiguous--but the things Dany sees and hears are distinct. She has no trouble discerning words, names, and odd images--the flower in the wall of ice, names she hasn't heard.

Those aren't ambiguous--and she registers such names and words throughout her visions in the HOTU.

 

10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Dany knows that Rhaegar supposedly "died for the woman he loved", knows about "his northern girl" whom he "carried off at swordpoint". The one and only female name that would make sense to Dany in this context is Lyanna. If she couldn't recognize the name at all, she wouldn't know it was a female name. If the name was completely unrelated to Rhaegar, she would wonder later why the hell he said "Susan" as his last word. If it was "Elia", she would have thought that he must have loved her, after all, when Barristan claims that he was "fond of " Elia.

On the bolded--why not? I'm not trying to be facetious--just not at all sure why she couldn't tell a word was a woman's name without the name being familiar.

And I agree Dany believes Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna for love--which is why the name have no effect on her is very odd. If it was "Lyanna" or "Elia,"  or even "Rhaenys," it would make sense if it registered.

But in a set of visions where Dany has no trouble hearing names and phrases and clearly thinking them in her thoughts for the reader--the omission of the name is odd.

Not determinative, but odd.

[Seaserpent]

18 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Hey seaserpent - nobody sees Rhaegar the entire year of the Rebellion.  Aerys likely knew where he was, the ToJ, but notice that it is not until Gerald Hightower personally goes to the ToJ on Arys's orders and tells Rhaegar to go back that Rhaegar joins in the war and is killed on the Trident.  Many of us have asked the question, where was Rhaegar during the Rebellion and why wasn't he fighting from the beginning, because it would be totally out of character for him to absent himself, doving and cooing with Lyanna Stark, while the war raged for a year no matter how in love with her.  He was a responsible guy. So my post posits why for the only reason I can think of that makes the most sense, to me at least.

Ey Lady Babrey, the most of the rebbelion and the ToJ is a very grey area, but in my opinion Rhaegar is an adult man and wasn t responsible for a long time. All what happened after the Harrenhall Tournament is very selfish and bad from his side. Lyanna was quit young and scared for Robert in some way. That Brandon was so hot headed and Aerys so cruwl they could not know. But taking a very young woman with you from a very high house like the Starks is really typical Targaryan craziness. Offcourse there has to be more than meets the eye. 

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, Seaserpent said:

Ey Lady Babrey, the most of the rebbelion and the ToJ is a very grey area, but in my opinion Rhaegar is an adult man and wasn t responsible for a long time. All what happened after the Harrenhall Tournament is very selfish and bad from his side. Lyanna was quit young and scared for Robert in some way. That Brandon was so hot headed and Aerys so cruwl they could not know. But taking a very young woman with you from a very high house like the Starks is really typical Targaryan craziness. Offcourse there has to be more than meets the eye. 

That's what I'm arguing!  Rhaegar, unless he really did abduct/elope with Lyanna, was not typical of that Targ craziness (though he was a little obsessive) so there is something more than meets the eye! With my scenario, he never took her from the Starks at all. He and Arthur threatened Brandon with it, but they wouldn't have actually done it.  Far too serious a matter politically.  No, they were never after Lyanna.  They wanted Brandon, who might have called their bluff or agreed to do what they wanted - quietly, and no one the wiser.  Running to Kings Landing screaming Rhaegar abducted my sister was the most foolish thing he could have done. His sister's honour is now besmirched past redemption (remember it doesn't matter if the noble maid is willing or unwilling - her honour is in her virginity not her intentions) as the assumption will be Rhaegar raped her.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

25 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Running to Kings Landing screaming Rhaegar abducted my sister was the most foolish thing he could have done.

That's not what he does, though, per Jaime's recollection. He doesn't ask for his sister back, he asks for Rhaegar to come out and die. 

Lately, I have been wondering if Brandon wasn't in on all of this and if this wasn't part of a plan that went completely off the rails because of Aerys's brand of crazy. 

Brandon must have known that threatening the crown prince on his turf would get his ass thrown in the cells. He was at Harrenhal, he must have seen Aerys and witnessed his behavior, including when he sent Rhaegar to find the mystery knight whom he deemed a threat. 

Brandon was the son of the Warden of the North and his heir and Elbert was the nephew of the Warden of the East and his heir. Rickard and Jon Arryn were two very powerful lords in their own right. So these two guys whom I'm assuming are intelligent ride into King's Landing and get themselves arrested alongside their other companions. 

I don't know if there is precedent in the broader universe about someone of high birth like Brandon threatening the life of a prince of the blood and what happened to him. But his father was summoned to King's Landing to ransom him, so the expectation from everyone involved (not Aerys or he might have changed his mind) was that Brandon and his companions would get to live.

I think there was a lot more happening between Rhaegar and Brandon and that he may have been his ally in the north.

[Lady Barbrey]

3 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That's not what he does, though, per Jaime's recollection. He doesn't ask for his sister back, he asks for Rhaegar to come out and die. 

Lately, I have been wondering if Brandon wasn't in on all of this and if this wasn't part of a plan that went completely off the rails because of Aerys's brand of crazy. 

Brandon must have known that threatening the crown prince on his turf would get his ass thrown in the cells. He was at Harrenhal, he must have seen Aerys and witnessed his behavior, including when he sent Rhaegar to find the mystery knight whom he deemed a threat. 

Brandon was the son of the Warden of the North and his heir and Elbert was the nephew of the Warden of the East and his heir. Rickard and Jon Arryn were two very powerful lords in their own right. So these two guys whom I'm assuming are intelligent ride into King's Landing and get themselves arrested alongside their other companions. 

I don't know if there is precedent in the broader universe about someone of high birth like Brandon threatening the life of a prince of the blood and what happened to him. But his father was summoned to King's Landing to ransom him, so the expectation from everyone involved (not Aerys or he might have changed his mind) was that Brandon and his companions would get to live.

I think there was a lot more happening between Rhaegar and Brandon and that he may have been his ally in the north.

I think we can assume, or at least I did, that "Rhaegar come out and die (because you have abducted my sister)' was the gist of his shouts, or why did everyone assume Rhaegar abducted her?

I do agree with you that more was happening regarding the possible alliance and possibly more was happening between Brandon and/or Rickard and Rhaegar than we've seen. There's just very little to go on as far as particulars of that proposed alliance are concerned. I do believe very strongly that the blue rose crown was perceived by Brandon as a threat to his sister for something he, Brandon, did.  Seducing Ashara is #1 for me because a Stark did seduce her and fathered a child on her, if Selmy got his gossip right, but that doesn't preclude other things as well.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I think we can assume, or at least I did, that "Rhaegar come out and die (because you have abducted my sister)' was the gist of his shouts, or why did everyone assume Rhaegar abducted her?

I do agree with you that more was happening regarding the possible alliance and possibly more was happening between Brandon and/or Rickard and Rhaegar than we've seen. There's just very little to go on as far as particulars of that proposed alliance are concerned. I do believe very strongly that the blue rose crown was perceived by Brandon as a threat to his sister for something he, Brandon, did.  Seducing Ashara is #1 for me because a Stark did seduce her and fathered a child on her, if Selmy got his gossip right, but that doesn't preclude other things as well.

I find the idea interesting but i always assumed the dishonoring happened after the crown was given or that the giving of the crown to Lyanna is what dishonored Ashara.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara's smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara's daughter …

But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that.

 

She didn't die till at least late in 283 after Eddard visited her and Brandon died in 281, so i've never agreed with the idea of Brandon being the one she is killing her self over losing. Seems that loss was more recent to when she killed her self. Like Rhaegar or her brother Arthur. Arthur never dishonored her though, so that would leave Rhaegar. 

 

Why would this haunt him so much and not the failing to protect Rhaegar at the Trident? Unless this act is what started the war, and he felt it was avoidable had he won and crowned Ashara instead of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna. 

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I find the idea interesting but i always assumed the dishonoring happened after the crown was given or that the giving of the crown to Lyanna is what dishonored Ashara.

 

She didn't die till at least late in 283 after Eddard visited her and Brandon died in 281, so i've never agreed with the idea of Brandon being the one she is killing her self over losing. Seems that loss was more recent to when she killed her self. Like Rhaegar or her brother Arthur. Arthur never dishonored her though, so that would leave Rhaegar. 

 

Why would this haunt him so much and not the failing to protect Rhaegar at the Trident? Unless this act is what started the war, and he felt it was avoidable had he won and crowned Ashara instead of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna. 

No I don't think, if she killed herself at all, that it was over Brandon either (and she would still have been pregnant then).  I think it was guilt, and dismay, after the last of her protectors died.  Think about it: her affair with Brandon incited and led to everything.  Lyanna's reputation was dishonoured. Rhaegar was discredited. Brandon was burned alive, his father strangled trying to save him.  The Rebellion began and thousands died.  Her child died (maybe). Rhaegar died. The war was lost. Lyanna died. Whent died. And finally Arthur died.  There was no one left, and it was, to her at least, all her fault.

So I don't believe she was 'some stupid lady throwing herself from a tower for a man' as Arya would say.  If she committed suicide, she had a surfeit of reasons to do so, the last of which was the death of her brother, who had tried so hard to save her from a mistake of her own making. People commit suicide when pain and grief are so unbearable they just want it to stop, or despair so overwhelming they can't see the other side of it.  I think she stopped believing in the other side. I might have too.  

As for haunting Barristan, he's a good, sentimental man recalling a woman he cared for that had a tragic death.  I think the women of Westeros lost a good man when he declared for the Kingsguard.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

42 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

No I don't think, if she killed herself at all, that it was over Brandon either (and she would still have been pregnant then).  I think it was guilt, and dismay, after the last of her protectors died.  Think about it: her affair with Brandon incited and led to everything.  Lyanna's reputation was dishonoured. Rhaegar was discredited. Brandon was burned alive, his father strangled trying to save him.  The Rebellion began and thousands died.  Her child died (maybe). Rhaegar died. The war was lost. Lyanna died. Whent died. And finally Arthur died.  There was no one left, and it was, to her at least, all her fault.

So I don't believe she was 'some stupid lady throwing herself from a tower for a man' as Arya would say.  If she committed suicide, she had a surfeit of reasons to do so, the last of which was the death of her brother, who had tried so hard to save her from a mistake of her own making. People commit suicide when pain and grief are so unbearable they just want it to stop, or despair so overwhelming they can't see the other side of it.  I think she stopped believing in the other side. I might have too.  

As for haunting Barristan, he's a good, sentimental man recalling a woman he cared for that had a tragic death.  I think the women of Westeros lost a good man when he declared for the Kingsguard.

 

But, when did Brandon supposedly dishonor Ashara then? Cause Barristan makes it seem like her dishonoring was avoidable and that she only "Looked to Stark" after Rhaegar crowned Lyanna. I guess i dont see the relation between her being dishonored at Harrenhal, to something prior to the crowning and Rhaegar winning. Barristan doesn't specifically mention when the dishonoring happened, ill give you that and this is merely my interpretation, though why would she be still showing her face to all at Harrenhal had she already been dishonored?

[Lady Barbrey]

22 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

But, when did Brandon supposedly dishonor Ashara then? Cause Barristan makes it seem like her dishonoring was avoidable and that she only "Looked to Stark" after Rhaegar crowned Lyanna. I guess i dont see the relation between her being dishonored at Harrenhal, to something prior to the crowning and Rhaegar winning. Barristan doesn't specifically mention when the dishonoring happened, ill give you that and this is merely my interpretation, though why would she be still showing her face to all at Harrenhal had she already been dishonored?

Oh I see. These are details Barristan wouldn't have known at the time but was told later. Ashara was dishonoured at Harrenhal by Stark, had a stillborn child and killed herself over child or man. That's what he's heard. He wouldn't have known if it was before or after the crowning; anyone concerned would have had a vested interest in keeping it quiet. The only thing he might have seen for himself was Ashara's interest in 'Stark', and he might not have noticed till after the crowning.  Though I don't think he even noticed that.   Barristan also wouldn't have known she had a still born daughter or had killed herself unless someone told him.  So it's hearsay, that's why readers have uncertainty about it. I myself believe she was dishonoured by a Stark at Harrenhal and became pregnant (why make that stuff up?) but have wondered about Ashara's death and the still-born daughter, both of which might be a smokescreen.  But if there is a smokescreen, Barristan's not in on it, so he believes what he is saying.

[Geddus]

On 10/9/2018 at 12:19 AM, corbon said:

If you (the general you, more than the specific you, though it applies in this case) think those actions make him crazy or irresponsible but he's clearly neither, and therefore those theories become untenable (but only for this reason), you should also look at the option that your assessment that those actions make him crazy or irresponsible isn't correct. He may understand the political, social or cultural (or other) landscape differently than you, and if so, he's more likely correct than you are, since its 'his' milieu, not yours.

Or to put it another way...
If a character is presented as intelligent and responsible, its better to assume that their actions are neither stupid nor irresponsible and look for a better understanding of the context, than to make social, political or cultural judgments that the actions are stupid or irresponsible.
Understanding the context may come from other theories (the path you are following) or from re-examining ones social, political or cultural assumptions (the alternate path I am suggesting be looked at as well).
I don't know which is correct. I just treat the idea that certain actions taken were stupid or irresponsible - when that goes against everything we are told about the people doing them - as rather suspect.

OTOH, for example, I'm quite happy to accept the idea that Brandon's performance at KL was both stupid and irresponsible, even though we have very little information about it. I accept this because it both fits with Brandon's described character (the wild wolf, the irresponsibility of sleeping with Lady Barbrey, the rage at Harrenhal etc etc) and with the somewhat independent in-milieu observation of Hoster Tully that the KL performance was gallant but foolish.

I had understood what you meant, it's me who wasn't clear: I am trying to do exacly what you're saying, it's just that I still haven't read any convincing explaination that makes Rhaegar's supposed actions smart or sane (in-story, not under our viewpoint). I had already read the post you mentioned but it, like every other theory, doesn't convince me at all.

About Brandon: the scenario where he stormed the Red Keep shouting for the prince's blood, which is prevalent here, actually doesn't make any sense. Brandon has been described as a hot-headed jerk at worst, not as a khornate berserker, he can't have remained blindingly furious the whole way from Riverrun to King's Landing (he and all his companions). I can believe he ended up screaming for Rhaegar to "come out and die" but I find it extremely unlikely that the whole thing started that way.

Also, everyone ignores Ned's memories of his brother which also don't fit with the "irresponsible dumbass" persona.

[LynnS]

On 10/7/2018 at 11:46 PM, Sly Wren said:

 

 

@Frey family reunion: 

Would also add that Martin took a fair amount of time showing that in the HOTU, Dany can discern words and names that are strange to her. She can hear whispers and odd phrases clearly.

But the name doesn't register--Lyanna's name means a lot to Dany: we see that with her reaction to Barristan's story. And she knows Elia's name really well. If the name was one she knew, one that mattered to her, really seems like it should have registered.

And having Rhaegar clearly whisper "Lyanna" would have shown us nothing more than what we have been told from the very first mention of Rhaegar. Whether the whisper means he loved her or not would remain to be seen. But it would not have been much of a revelation to the reader. 

Agree.  Not forgetting that visions in the HoU are either past, present or future.  So given that Dany knows of Lyanna and Elia; I'm guessing this is not something from the past but rather an event that has not yet happened.  I think she is being shown someone who is significant to the story in the present or near future.   Potentially, it could be Aegon wearing a copy of Rhaegar's armor which may be how Dany identifies the person as a 'prince'.   Certainly, rubies flying from his chest like drops of blood and fighting in a river sounds like Rhaegar.  If Connington is selling Aegon as the son of Rhaegar, then this description of a dying prince is meant to make that link.   I'm not certain this means that Aegon will die; but rather Dany may take action to prevent that from happening.  

[Bael's Bastard]

We can very easily lay to rest the idea that there is any mystery as to the identity of the woman whose name the dying prince murmured with his last breath in Dany's HOTU vision in ACOK: Daenerys IV.

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . . (ACOK: Daenerys IV)

Lyanna's name occurs exactly one time in all of Dany's dozens of POV chapters from AGOT through ADWD:

"But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!" said Dany. "Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?" (ASOS: Daenerys IV)

Yet Lyanna is described, without being named except that once, a handful of other times in Dany's POVs, including in her very first chapter in AGOT:

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword. (AGOT: Daenerys I)

"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heels. "My death?" She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved. (AGOT: Daenerys VIII)

Dany pulled the lion pelt tighter about her shoulders. "Viserys said once that it was my fault, for being born too late." She had denied it hotly, she remembered, going so far as to tell Viserys that it was his fault for not being born a girl. He beat her cruelly for that insolence. "If I had been born more timely, he said, Rhaegar would have married me instead of Elia, and it would all have come out different. If Rhaegar had been happy in his wife, he would not have needed the Stark girl." (ASOS: Daenerys IV)

Side by side the queen's procession and Hizdahr zo Loraq's made their slow way across Meereen, until finally the Temple of the Graces loomed up before them, its golden domes flashing in the sun. How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her. (ADWD: Daenerys VII)

In fact, since AGOT: Daenerys I occurs before AGOT: Eddard I, the very first description of Lyanna in the entire series is in Dany's first POV, without being named.

Dany knew Lyanna's name in AGOT: Daenerys I, AGOT: Daenerys VIII, and ADWD: Daenerys IV, just like she knew her name in ACOK: Daenerys IV, but you will not find Lyanna's name in any of those descriptions of Lyanna. For whatever reason, her name only occurs once in Dany's POV, and not until the book after the HOTU vision.