R+L=J v.165

[Ygrain]

On 11/20/2018 at 3:06 PM, Moondancer said:

Quotation from Fire and Blood, have a care if you wish to remain unspoiled, but it's more of a teaser than anything major as to the book's content.

 

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Awesome precedent! That much for

Spoiler

"girls are physically unable to joust" argument.

 

 

[The Sleeper]

8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

Not the issue as much. We've been beaten over the head that, according to Martin at least, jousting is more about skill than strength, so it is entirely plausible that Lyanna would have been good at it. The question is how would she have developed skill for it without her father knowing and putting an end to it. 

[Ygrain]

15 minutes ago, The Sleeper said:

Not the issue as much. We've been beaten over the head that, according to Martin at least, jousting is more about skill than strength, so it is entirely plausible that Lyanna would have been good at it. The question is how would she have developed skill for it without her father knowing and putting an end to it. 

You're preaching to the choir :-) But some posters love to twist themselves into pretzels over "it absolutely couldn't have been Lyanna" :-)

[Bael's Bastard]

1 hour ago, The Sleeper said:

Not the issue as much. We've been beaten over the head that, according to Martin at least, jousting is more about skill than strength, so it is entirely plausible that Lyanna would have been good at it. The question is how would she have developed skill for it without her father knowing and putting an end to it. 

The app profile of Lyanna says she practiced at tilting at rings. Whether she did this without Rickard's knowledge, or Rickard knew and permitted it, we know this is an area of skill that Lyanna actively practiced.

[The Sleeper]

1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The app profile of Lyanna says she practiced at tilting at rings. Whether she did this without Rickard's knowledge, or Rickard knew and permitted it, we know this is an area of skill that Lyanna actively practiced.

Rickard wouldn't let her play at sticks with Benjen. It is completely out of character to be allowed to ride at tilts. And you know, actual tilts and lances are required. There are issues, as to how she might have practised. 

[Ygrain]

Lyanna is known to have been fond of riding. All it would take was a couple of guards with a soft spot for the lovely she-wolf. Especially if she was clever enough not to have asked for permission, since Rickard could hardly forbid what he never knew about. Plus, it's not like a long stick is entirely impossible to obtain in a woodland area.

[Megorova]

20 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

The question is how would she have developed skill for it without her father knowing and putting an end to it. 

Same way how she learned to use a sword - in secret, with "help" of her three brothers.

ADWD, Bran III:

Quote

The rest of his father's words were drowned out by a sudden clatter of wood on wood. Eddard Stark dissolved, like mist in a morning sun. Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.

If aged 10, Lyanna was practicing swordplay with tree branches, then what was she capable of, when she was 15? -> Real swords? Jousting with her brothers?

People did said, that she was "centaur" (Barbrey Dustin) and "half a horse herself" (Roose Bolton). So when, where, and how did she became such a good horserider? Maybe by practicing at tilting at rings?

[corbon]

On 11/24/2018 at 5:13 AM, The Sleeper said:

Rickard wouldn't let her play at sticks with Benjen. It is completely out of character to be allowed to ride at tilts. And you know, actual tilts and lances are required. There are issues, as to how she might have practised. 

No, there aren't.

To tilt at rings you need a horse, a long straight stick, some rings, some string and a suitable tree (branches the right height and enough space to ride in).

Considering rings and stick could easily be made of tree branches, its extraordinarily easy for a girl to ride at rings away from teh castle if she doesn't want her father to know. 

Some of us were pointing out these things before the app existed...

[Bael's Bastard]

On 11/23/2018 at 11:13 AM, The Sleeper said:

Rickard wouldn't let her play at sticks with Benjen. It is completely out of character to be allowed to ride at tilts. And you know, actual tilts and lances are required. There are issues, as to how she might have practised. 

A 10-11 year old Lyanna didn't want Rickard to find out that she and Benjen were playing at sword fighting. That Rickard wouldn't let Lyanna carry a sword or practice at sword fighting doesn't necessarily mean he prohibited her from tilting at rings. Daena the Defiant was also practiced at riding at rings, but prohibited from riding in a tourney. Lyanna might have had a similar situation, where Rickard tolerated her riding at rings, but would not permit her to take it any further. But whatever the case, even if Rickard disapproved or prohibited Lyanna, she learned to do it anyway. 

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I guess Jon's long face isn't just something he could have gotten from his Stark side, but also from his Targaryen side.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

F&B has made me wonder about something with regard to Brandon. When he went on his heedless ride to King's Landing, was it because he was told his sister had been kidnapped or was it because he was told his sister had gotten married?

The text does give us that push that he may have believed Lyanna had been taken against her will, but with all the Targaryens getting secretly married, then telling their family about it and the angered reactions and the couples staying away for a bit until the anger blows over . . . I don't know, it just feels like a new door may have been cracked open on this.

[Geddus]

Catelyn's thoughts seem to imply that she knew what Brandon had been told, tho; her father apparently knew as well.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Geddus said:

Catelyn's thoughts seem to imply that she knew what Brandon had been told, tho; her father apparently knew as well.

Yes, it is implied. But she never says what she or her father knew. She says Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he heard about Lyanna and went to King's Landing instead. 

"He was on his way to Riverrun when . . ." Strange, how telling it still make her throat grow tight, after all these years. ". . . when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King's Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do." She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon. (Catelyn VII, Clash 55)

If Brandon found out that Rhaegar married Lyanna, then him going to King's Landing actually makes some sense. Even the words he used to come out and die make some sense put in this context.

[Geddus]

Yes but if people had heard that Rhaegar had married Lyanna then the story would have come out, instead only the kidnapping is ever mentioned. We have Catelyn's POV, she never thinks of that in other terms.

[Shmedricko]

On 11/25/2018 at 2:14 PM, corbon said:

No, there aren't.

To tilt at rings you need a horse, a long straight stick, some rings, some string and a suitable tree (branches the right height and enough space to ride in).

Considering rings and stick could easily be made of tree branches, its extraordinarily easy for a girl to ride at rings away from teh castle if she doesn't want her father to know. 

Some of us were pointing out these things before the app existed...

I agree. I think this quote from The Mystery Knight is informative regarding how Lyanna could have practiced:

"You have not ridden in a tilt since Ashford Meadow, ser."

Insolent boy. "I've trained." Not so faithfully as he might have, to be sure. When he could, he took his turn riding at quintains or rings, where such were available. And sometimes he would command Egg to climb a tree and hang a shield or barrel stave beneath a well-placed limb for them to tilt at.

[Frey family reunion]

On 12/14/2018 at 5:25 AM, Shmedricko said:

I agree. I think this quote from The Mystery Knight is informative regarding how Lyanna could have practiced:

"You have not ridden in a tilt since Ashford Meadow, ser."

Insolent boy. "I've trained." Not so faithfully as he might have, to be sure. When he could, he took his turn riding at quintains or rings, where such were available. And sometimes he would command Egg to climb a tree and hang a shield or barrel stave beneath a well-placed limb for them to tilt at.

But I think the point was, that this wasn’t nearly enough for Dunk to be a capable jouster.

[J. Stargaryen]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But I think the point was, that this wasn’t nearly enough for Dunk to be a capable jouster.

Jaime always believed that jousting was three-quarters horsemanship. Perhaps Dunk was not a strong enough rider.

[Bael's Bastard]

11 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But I think the point was, that this wasn’t nearly enough for Dunk to be a capable jouster.

Then you missed the point.

Dunk isn't portrayed as a particularly skilled rider or jouster in the first place, and as of the Whitewalls Tourney in 211 AC, Dunk hadn't ridden in a tilt since the Ashford Tourney in 209 AC, and he did not faithfully train at tilting between Ashfordin 209 AC and Whitewalls in 211 AC. He also had the misfortune of going up against a professional tourney knight in the first round.

Lyanna, on the other hand, is portrayed as an extremely skilled rider, and we are told in the app that she actually practiced at tilting at rings. This quote shows us some of the ways that Lyanna could have gotten away with practicing tilting at rings in secret in the event her father did not permit her to do so openly.

[anjulibai]

On 12/14/2018 at 3:14 AM, Geddus said:

Yes but if people had heard that Rhaegar had married Lyanna then the story would have come out, instead only the kidnapping is ever mentioned. We have Catelyn's POV, she never thinks of that in other terms.

Maybe the story came out that she and Rhaegar married, but maybe no one wanted to accept that Lyanna wanted to get married, so everyone assumed she was raped and forced into the marriage. Certainly Robert would never accept that Lyanna didn't want him - too much a blow to his pride. As time has gone on, people only talked about more about a rape and not the marriage. And given that she died, the stories of what happened to her became worse and worse. GRRM does talk a lot about stories changing with time and details being forgotten; there are a lot of references to unreliable narrators throughout the books. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

I've always been bogged down by why Brandon would go to King's Landing, knowing that Rhaegar's seat is Dragonstone. But I think it makes more sense why he would have gone there if he had found out Rhaegar and Lyanna had married. King's Landing is where both the High Septon and the king are if he believes the marriage was sanctioned both by the Faith and Aerys. And I don't think it matters what he knew or didn't know of the relationship between Rhaegar and his father. 

And even the words that Jaime remembers that Brandon allegedly spoke sort of make sense put in this context. To me at least, they do. A marriage cannot be set aside once it has been consummated. But killing your sister's husband in combat and making her a widow sure helps put an end to it. 

For me this sort of makes sense.

As far as the kidnapping charges leveled at Rhaegar, the victor gets to say whatever he wants and stir the narrative in whichever direction he wants. And that's what Robert did, even though it seems he knew a lot more about the whole situation.