R+L=J v.165

[J. Stargaryen]

51 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

TKOTLT appeared late on the afternoon of the second day, while one of the knights became champion at the end of the first day, and the other two became champions on the morning of the second day. I would think they would have been in good enough shape to defeat challengers on the second day, until they faced TKOTLT. Aside from Lyanna's skill at riding, and her practice at tilting at rings, I wouldn't be surprised if she pulled something similar to what Loras pulled. 

Ah, that's right. Thanks.

[corbon]

On 12/30/2018 at 10:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

Lady Dustin describes both Lyanna and Brandon as centaurs, and we’re never given any indication that Brandon was anything special as a jouster.  All we know is that Rhaegar beat him at the Harrenhal tourney.

We know that Rhaegar beat him, yes.
We also know the company he was in. And we have a pretty good idea that it was the last day of the tourney, when the best knights come out, or Rhaegar would have had to fight more than just 4 knights (Royce, Stark, Dayne and Selmy), at least some of which must have been fellow champions, to win the crown.

Given Brandon's reputation as a horseman (and Jaime's and Bolton's comments on the relevance of that), his position, his temperament, the situation at Harrenhal and the company he was in at Harrenhal (as in, who else Rhaegar beat, and he's in the middle of that lot), I think its a fair bet to say he was a pretty good jouster. Not too many tourneys up north for him to get a rep though.   

On 12/30/2018 at 10:58 AM, Frey family reunion said:

 I don’t think Lord Bolton was referring to Lyanna as half a horse, it doesn’t make any sense that she would have been riding against Domeric Bolton.  I think it’s much more probable that he was referring to Lord Rickard Karstark’s daughter, Alys.

I think its a continuity error from GRRM and that Domeric Bolton was initially (as in GRRM's mind) born much earlier.
Note that Domeric was a page at Barrowtown, where Brandon was fostered. Note that the other centaur reference is specifically Brandon and Lyanna, and also references Barrowtown.
Note that there is no other reference to Alys Karstark being any sort of horsewoman - in fact the only reference to her in relation to horses is her almost killing a horse getting away from her family and heading north to Jon at the wall.

On 12/30/2018 at 11:02 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I think you’re discounting Howland Reed at your peril.  After all if this tale is to be believed (and it seems unfair to believe the parts that fit your narrative and disbelieve the parts that don’t), Howland became embedded with the mysterious Green Men of the Isle of Faces.  If his skills were mundane before his stay there, they may not have been so mundane afterward.  After all, what do you think it means when it says he can talk to trees?  It seems highly probable that Howland, like Bran, and like Brynden, may be a greenseer.

We can agree to disagree. I think you are taking the mystery of Howland Reed and magnifying his importance enormously. Mind you, you are not alone there!

There is no evidence Howland Reed is a greenseer. He spent time on the Isle of Faces, thats it. It hardly seems likely that he's sent his kids to help Bran find the Last Greenseer (Brynden Rivers) if he is also a Greenseer and has vastly greater skills than they (remember, he's only in his early to mid 30s), nor that the Children call Brynden the Last Greenseers if Howland has the same skills. He's just a youthful swamp lord who sought additional knowledge and played a small part in a larger story. 
OTOH that additional knowledge he maybe found on the isle of faces may be why Jojen has green dreams. But there is no basic indication that Howland had any super skills. Certainly 3 young squires were beating the shit out of his easily enough and he explicitly turned down an opportunity to ride in the tourney despite wanting to teach them a lesson, because he felt his obvious lack of skills would make a fool of him and shame his people. Why turn down such an opportunity for that reason if he was going to use "magic" skills to win anyway?

Talk to trees?
Probably mostly knowledge and understanding of them and their environment that allows him to learn things that less skilled Andals could not. As simple as having tracking skills to tell if  someone 'ran past this tree' and how long ago.
Possibly also simply "communing" with the weirwoods, in a sort of mundane religious way. Only marginally more than Ned did. To outsiders it looks like he 'talks to trees'.

Its possible there is more. But its not necessary for the story and makes nonsense of Meera and Jojen's parts in the story. GRRM is very much a minimalist in the 'magic' area, and very good at showing us appropriately 'primitive' descriptions.
The frog people have "magic" because they are a little known and mostly despised people who have highly developed mundane skills in certain areas that 'normal' people don't understand. They call it magic because they don;t understand and the frog people do because that helps give them an element of protection. Thats GRRM's base level and Howland Reed fits into that paradigm perfectly.
However, underlying that is a deeper level of magic, most of which has been lost and is the stuff of myth and legend, much like our own world. Some of it is demonstrably true in GRRMs world in a way it is not in our own however. 

 

[JNR]

7 hours ago, corbon said:

its not necessary for the story and makes nonsense of Meera and Jojen's parts in the story

What do you consider those parts to be?

[Bael's Bastard]

On 12/24/2018 at 1:28 PM, Frey family reunion said:

No, I think you’re really reaching here.  The point of the quote is that Dunc’s “Training” was clearly insufficient for him to think that he could win any joust:

In other words, not participating in tilts, and charging at a shield hanging from a tree is not a good substitute.

No reach required, my interpretation is completely in line with the text.

What is really a reach is how you are cherry picking a text that highlights Dunk's tilting shortcomings, and trying to project them onto Lyanna. None of it holds up under scrutiny. The text highlights that:

1. Dunk isn't skilled at tilting in the first place: "You're better with a sword than with a lance," Egg said. "With an axe or a mace, there's few to match your strength."

2. Dunk hasn't ridden in a tilt since the Ashford Tourney in 209 AC: "You have not ridden in a tilt since Ashford Meadow, ser."

Even that is generous. Dunk never got to ride in a tilt at the Ashford Tourney. Instead, he ran afoul of Aerion, and had to ride/fight in a trial of seven, in which he was pierced by Aerion's lance, dropped his own lance, and his horse was knocked to its ass on the first charge. That is the extent of Dunk's tilting experience at the time of the tourney in 211 AC.

And since then:

3. Dunk hasn't consistently practiced tilting: Insolent boy. "I've trained." Not so faithfully as he might have, to be sure. When he could, he took his turn riding at quintains or rings, where such were available. And sometimes he would command Egg to climb a tree and hang a shield or barrel stave beneath a well-placed limb for them to tilt at.

To summarize, Dunk is not skilled at tilting in the first place, his only experiencing tilting is in a trial of seven in which he quickly lost his lance and was then knocked off his horse by Aerion, and he has not dedicated himself to training to improve his skill and chances as a jouster since then. He just expects to be able to enter the tourney and gain some victories without having put in the time and effort to improve.

We have good reason to consider how or why Lyanna might have been able to defeat three knights who were capable of becoming champions on the first two days of the seven day tourney, but Dunk's lack of skill and failure to train consistently tell us nothing about Lyanna.

On 12/24/2018 at 1:28 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Now having said that, it doesn’t mean that Lyanna wasn’t the KOTLT.  She very well may have been.  In my opinion, it’s just evidence that if Lyanna was the KOTLT, then something else happened which allowed her to beat three jousters (presumably experienced) who ended the first two days of the tourney as the initial champions.  Presumably something to do with the Old Gods.

After all we get this tidbit in the story:

And finally this:

So how does Lyanna who has never participated in a tilt, who at most may have practiced as Dunk did, riding at a shield hanging from a shield:

Beat three experienced jousters?

It makes me wonder if some magic, may have been afoot?  Something that might have affected the horses perhaps?  Lyanna, good on a horse, and perhaps having tilted at a shield hanging in a tree, could certainly at least may be experienced and talented enough to look the part, but what could ensure that she would beat three jousters who would have had more far more experience?

There is no need, and no evidence, for such convoluted and baseless explanations.

We are told Lyanna was a skilled rider. We are told Lyanna practiced tilting at rings. We know Lyanna practiced things she was not supposed to behind her father's back, whether or not tilting at rings would have been one of those things.

As for the knights Lyanna faced if she was TKOTLT, they were good enough to become champions during the earliest days, but hardly the cream of the crop, and she waited until "late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long" to appear and challenge them, making it likely that they had already spent the day defending their spots before they faced her.

And if any shenanigans were involved in TKOTLT's victories, a much more realistic possibility is that the knight used something like the slender sixteen year old Loras used to defeat the largest man in Westeros, Gregor Clegane in the very first book.

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No reach required, my interpretation is completely in line with the text.

What is really a reach is how you are cherry picking a text that highlights Dunk's tilting shortcomings, and trying to project them onto Lyanna. None of it holds up under scrutiny. The text highlights that:

1. Dunk isn't skilled at tilting in the first place: "You're better with a sword than with a lance," Egg said. "With an axe or a mace, there's few to match your strength."

2. Dunk hasn't ridden in a tilt since the Ashford Tourney in 209 AC: "You have not ridden in a tilt since Ashford Meadow, ser."

Even that is generous. Dunk never got to ride in a tilt at the Ashford Tourney. Instead, he ran afoul of Aerion, and had to ride/fight in a trial of seven, in which he was pierced by Aerion's lance, dropped his own lance, and his horse was knocked to its ass on the first charge. That is the extent of Dunk's tilting experience at the time of the tourney in 211 AC.

And since then:

3. Dunk hasn't consistently practiced tilting: Insolent boy. "I've trained." Not so faithfully as he might have, to be sure. When he could, he took his turn riding at quintains or rings, where such were available. And sometimes he would command Egg to climb a tree and hang a shield or barrel stave beneath a well-placed limb for them to tilt at.

To summarize, Dunk is not skilled at tilting in the first place, his only experiencing tilting is in a trial of seven in which he quickly lost his lance and was then knocked off his horse by Aerion, and he has not dedicated himself to training to improve his skill and chances as a jouster since then. He just expects to be able to enter the tourney and gain some victories without having put in the time and effort to improve.

We have good reason to consider how or why Lyanna might have been able to defeat three knights who were capable of becoming champions on the first two days of the seven day tourney, but Dunk's lack of skill and failure to train consistently tell us nothing about Lyanna.

1.  We have no knowledge that Lyanna had ever tilted at all.

2.  Lyanna never rode in a tilt.

3.  What evidence do we have (and please stick with the books) that Lyanna had ever practiced tilting?

To summarize, there is no indication that Lyanna is known to have ever jouster or practiced jousting.  Not saying she never did, but we have no indication from the texts.  What we have is that Lyanna was good on a horse.  Now is being good on a horse all that is necessary to be successful at a joust?  Obviously not, since another Harwin, who implied that he was an even more skilled rider than Arya or her Aunt Lyanna, lost in his only tilt at the Hand’s tourney.

[Frey family reunion]

10 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There is no need, and no evidence, for such convoluted and baseless explanations.

We are told Lyanna was a skilled rider. We are told Lyanna practiced tilting at rings. We know Lyanna practiced things she was not supposed to behind her father's back, whether or not tilting at rings would have been one of those things.

As for the knights Lyanna faced if she was TKOTLT, they were good enough to become champions during the earliest days, but hardly the cream of the crop, and she waited until "late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long" to appear and challenge them, making it likely that they had already spent the day defending their spots before they faced her.

And if any shenanigans were involved in TKOTLT's victories, a much more realistic possibility is that the knight used something like the slender sixteen year old Loras used to defeat the largest man in Westeros, Gregor Clegane in the very first book.

There is absolutely a basis.  The story itself lends some belief that the Old Gods had somehow aided the Mystery Knight.  And the story is presumably told to the Reeds by their father Howland Reed.  So when Howland Reed tells them that the Old Gods lent strength to the arms of the Mystery Knight, then Howland Reed could very well be hinting that there was a magical assist to the Mystery Knight.

The story also specifically states that Howland knew the magic of his people and then traveled to the Isle of Faces to learn the magic of the Green Men.  So once, again I’m not suggesting this possibility out of whole cloth.

Now if the talk of magic makes you uncomfortable fine.  Maybe he gave a slight poison to the knights who drew his ire.  Maybe a more mundane trick was used.  Suit yourself as to whatever makes you comfortable in the confines of the story. 

I personally find some significance to the fact that Howland Reed had traveled to the Isle of Faces (and I assume that this will be of even more significance as the story progresses.  

What I do find a bit a big incongruous is that Howland would take the time to pray to the Old Gods about a means for his revenge and the best plan that he or the Old Gods came up with is having Lyanna who never jousted in a tilt before would come out and be able to defeat three evidently experienced jousters.  

I don’t have an issue with Lyanna being the mystery knight, but I do have issue with Howland being an absolutely passive participant in his own revenge against the three knights.  It makes a lot more sense story wise to suggest that Howland and Lyanna devised a plan to together to teach the knights a lesson.  Lyanna supplied the horsemanship, while Howland supplied something from the Old Gods.  

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, corbon said:

We know that Rhaegar beat him, yes.
We also know the company he was in. And we have a pretty good idea that it was the last day of the tourney, when the best knights come out, or Rhaegar would have had to fight more than just 4 knights (Royce, Stark, Dayne and Selmy), at least some of which must have been fellow champions, to win the crown.

Given Brandon's reputation as a horseman (and Jaime's and Bolton's comments on the relevance of that), his position, his temperament, the situation at Harrenhal and the company he was in at Harrenhal (as in, who else Rhaegar beat, and he's in the middle of that lot), I think its a fair bet to say he was a pretty good jouster. Not too many tourneys up north for him to get a rep though.  

Yet when Eddard thinks back to the tourney he thinks of the following:

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He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s beserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right.

So Eddard certainly remembered Robert’s prowess in the melee but as for Brandon’s ability in the joust:

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Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen.... Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dwayne, the sword of the morning.

So this doesn’t mean that Brandon didn’t joust well before he met Rhaegar, he certainly could have.  But it could also mean that Brandon didn’t take the field until Rhaegar took the field, and Brandon was the first to fall to Rhaegar.  In other words, Brandon lost his first tilt to Rhaegar.

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, corbon said:

I think its a continuity error from GRRM and that Domeric Bolton was initially (as in GRRM's mind) born much earlier.
Note that Domeric was a page at Barrowtown, where Brandon was fostered. Note that the other centaur reference is specifically Brandon and Lyanna, and also references Barrowtown.
Note that there is no other reference to Alys Karstark being any sort of horsewoman - in fact the only reference to her in relation to horses is her almost killing a horse getting away from her family and heading north to Jon at the wall.

I don’t think it’s a very good argument when your rationale is that George must have screwed up.  

And you are also selling Alys Karstark waaay too short on her riding ability.  In fact we get a more real world example of her being an expert rider than from anything we got from Lyanna or Brandon.  Alys escapes from Karhold on horse, and she is pursued by her uncle’s hunting party, who she manages to elude on horseback all the way from Karhold to the Wall (look that up on the map).  And she does a good bit of this in the midst of a vicious snowstorm, the same snowstorm that almost does in Stannis and his army.

And while Lyanna is described as being half a centaur, I contend that not only does Roose describe Alys as being half a horse we get this initial description of her from Jon’s POV:

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She looked enough like Arya to give him pause, but only for a moment.  A tall, skinny coltish girl all legs and elbows, her brown hair was woven in a thick braid and bound about with strips of leather.  She had a long face, a pointy chin, small ears.

So not only is she described as coltish, but she is described as having a long face and looking somewhat like Arya “Horseface”.

And finally it makes much more sense that Alys would have been riding with Domeric.  It would have taken place in the time period when her father was trying to make her a match with one of the other Lords’ sons.  He brings her to Winterfell to try and match her with Robb.  It makes sense that Lady Dustin would have invited her to Barrowntown to see if she could have been a matchmaker between her and Domeric, whom she was fostering.

[Frey family reunion]

18 hours ago, corbon said:

There is no evidence Howland Reed is a greenseer. He spent time on the Isle of Faces, thats it. It hardly seems likely that he's sent his kids to help Bran find the Last Greenseer (Brynden Rivers) if he is also a Greenseer and has vastly greater skills than they (remember, he's only in his early to mid 30s), nor that the Children call Brynden the Last Greenseers if Howland has the same skills. He's just a youthful swamp lord who sought additional knowledge and played a small part in a larger story. 

And spending time on the Isle of Faces is not big deal?  What was he doing on the Isle of Faces?

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“The lad knew the magics of the crannogs,” she continued, “but he wanted more.”

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But this lad was bolder than most, and one day when he had grown to manhood he decided he would leave the crannogs and visit the Isle of Faces.”

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“No one visits the Isle of Faces objected Bran.  “That’s where the green men live.”

”It was the green men he meant to find.”

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“Did he meet the green men?”

”Yes, said Meera, “but that’s another story, and not for me to tell.”

So it appears that there is a significance to Howland’s stay at the Isle of Faces, a place he traveled to to learn more magic than what he could learn in the crannogs.

As for your last point, how do you think Howland’s children knew so much about how to get Brandon to open his third eye?  Who do you think taught them about opening the third eye?  And just because Howland sought out Bran, you think that somehow marganlised Howland or what he could do?  After all, Brynden also sought out Bran, and told Bran that he had been specifically watching him.  Suggesting that Bran may have the potential to be more powerful than Howland or Brynden, doesn’t also mean that Howland isn’t powerful or skillful in his own right.  

 

[Lord Varys]

We don't yet know how exactly the tourney of Harrenhal was set up. The idea that one had to challenge great champions the way it was at Ashford is not confirmed at this point, is it? I know there were also five champions defending the honor of the Whent girl, but it isn't said that all the jousting revolved around challenging them. In fact, if there had been five champions then how could Rhaegar be the sole champion in the end? Even if the champions for some reason fought each other in the end, five is an odd number leaving one champion without an opponent.

And how is it that the mystery knight after becoming a champion could challenge other champions rather than being challenged by knights who weren't champions yet? Back at Ashford no champion challenges another champion. And it is quite clear that the mystery knight only rode three tilts in the story.

Something is really not all that right in the story. Also that that the Blount knight lasted an entire day as champion (he rose to the position late the first day as per the story) until he was defeated by the mystery knight late in the afternoon of the second day sounds somewhat off.

It would be very convenient of the prick squires happened to be apprenticed to three great knights who all three also conveniently ended up being champions when the mystery knight entered the lists.

Could therefore turn out that only one of the knights was a champion - perhaps the Blount fellow (could easily have been young Ser Boros Blount) - and that the mystery knight defeated the other knights somewhere else in the lists.

Tales grow in the telling and all that, and Meera wasn't at Harrenhal.

There is also no indication that the mystery knight himself became a champion. If it were a THK-like tourney then the mystery knight would have been a champion after defeating the first knight, causing him to be actually challenged by the other two, not being able to himself challenge other knights.

If the Blount fellow lasted as long as the story claims he did he must have been a pretty good jouster considering what kind of men were actually participating in that tourney.

However, the idea that Lya needed any 'magical or divine support' to defeat knights in the lists isn't convincing.

It is quite clear that George doesn't think you have to be a powerfully built manly man to be a great or even adequate jouster.

Other thing on the ability of a young man with a spear:

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The youngest champion, Pate the Woodcock, fought with a spear instead of a sword, and some questioned whether he was a knight at all, but he proved so skillful with his chosen weapon that Ser Joffrey Doggett settled the matter by dubbing the lad himself, whilst hundreds cheered.

This is a character possibly resembling Howland Reed becoming a member of the greatest Kingsguard.

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It was a hard and brutal regimen. Each bout ended only when the king himself or his opponent declared him dead. Jaehaerys died so often that the men of the garrison made a game of it, shouting “The king is dead” every time he fell, and “Long live the king” when he struggled to his feet. His foes began a contest, wagering with one another to see which of them could kill the king the most. (The victor, we are told, was young Ser Pate the Woodcock, whose darting spear purportedly gave His Grace fits.)

And this is Ser Pate actually causing one of the greatest Targaryen warriors considerable trouble during his training.

This might be more than a mere hint as to how we can imagine Howland Reed defeating Ser Arthur Dayne. Jousting is not fighting. And spears can kill, too. Even if Oberyn failed at that...

[corbon]

On 1/3/2019 at 5:43 AM, JNR said:

What do you consider those parts to be?

I'm not entirely sure. Mostly to follow Jojen's green dreams and accompany Bran to the three-eyed crow, who is the last greenseer according to the CotF.

If Howland Reed is a Greenseer, vastly more capable than Jojen and Meera in both magical and mundane skills, why would he send them to accompany Bran to Bloodraven. Much safer and better to get them to bring Bran to him, or go with Bran himself.

I think Meera and Jojen were sent by Howland to Winterfell for an entirely mundane reason (as stated), perhaps influenced by Jojen's green dreams. The green dreams drive them north because Bloodraven is the last greenseer, Howland Reed does not have those extraordinarily rare special skills that Bran needs to be taught.

 

[corbon]

On 1/3/2019 at 4:24 PM, Frey family reunion said:

There is absolutely a basis.  The story itself lends some belief that the Old Gods had somehow aided the Mystery Knight.  And the story is presumably told to the Reeds by their father Howland Reed.  So when Howland Reed tells them that the Old Gods lent strength to the arms of the Mystery Knight, then Howland Reed could very well be hinting that there was a magical assist to the Mystery Knight.

The story also specifically states that Howland knew the magic of his people and then traveled to the Isle of Faces to learn the magic of the Green Men.  So once, again I’m not suggesting this possibility out of whole cloth.

Now if the talk of magic makes you uncomfortable fine.  Maybe he gave a slight poison to the knights who drew his ire.  Maybe a more mundane trick was used.  Suit yourself as to whatever makes you comfortable in the confines of the story. 

Its not the talk of magic makes me uncomfortable, far from it. Its the unnecessary injection of magic into clearly mundane things and events. Especially when such is only 'required' because of extensive ignoring of the text  in terms of what is possible and relevant (smallish young women warriors beating trained men, which is somewhat dubious realistically, but extensively demonstrated in Westeros).

On 1/3/2019 at 4:24 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I personally find some significance to the fact that Howland Reed had traveled to the Isle of Faces (and I assume that this will be of even more significance as the story progresses.  

What I do find a bit a big incongruous is that Howland would take the time to pray to the Old Gods about a means for his revenge and the best plan that he or the Old Gods came up with is having Lyanna who never jousted in a tilt before would come out and be able to defeat three evidently experienced jousters.  

That assumes the Old Gods "actively assisted" in the first place. One of the things GRRM does with religion is have very little active evidence that any of the various gods believed in by people are real. And this despite the fact that there clearly is magic in his world, with rules (often unknown) and practitioners with varying skill levels.
One of the things I really like is the sudden ability of Thoros to revive the dead. Ancient rituals he learned that always appeared to do nothing, and as such kind of killed his belief, started working again as (or so it appears to me) the magical forces of the world began to flow more freely again (apparently tied somewhat to the re-emergence of dragons, or is that chicken and egg... maybe the comet, maybe the re-emergence of the Others, maybe something else entirely.)

On 1/3/2019 at 4:24 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t have an issue with Lyanna being the mystery knight, but I do have issue with Howland being an absolutely passive participant in his own revenge against the three knights.  It makes a lot more sense story wise to suggest that Howland and Lyanna devised a plan to together to teach the knights a lesson.  Lyanna supplied the horsemanship, while Howland supplied something from the Old Gods.  

I disagree.
The story is explicit that Howland was helpless. And frankly, his revenge is meaningless in the larger context of things. The story, for us, (though whether Meera and Jojen or even Howland know it or not) was really about the wolf girl and how she came to the attention of the Dragon Prince. But in typical Martin style its tyold in a different way from another perspective entirely, and in fact told as something of a fairy tale.
For me it makes a lot of sense that Howland was helpless to remedy the injustice done to him and that made Lyanna mad, so she, wolf blood boiling, fixed it herself.

On 1/3/2019 at 4:33 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Yet when Eddard thinks back to the tourney he thinks of the following:

So Eddard certainly remembered Robert’s prowess in the melee but as for Brandon’s ability in the joust:

So this doesn’t mean that Brandon didn’t joust well before he met Rhaegar, he certainly could have.  But it could also mean that Brandon didn’t take the field until Rhaegar took the field, and Brandon was the first to fall to Rhaegar.  In other words, Brandon lost his first tilt to Rhaegar.

Yes, I expect Brandon lost his first tilt to Rhaegar. Who was unstoppable that day and won the whole thing.
That doesn't lesson Brandon's skills. He certainly seems to have backed himself to take on the 'top dog'. Which could be arrogance, but probably at least also indicates a fair degree of skill to back up that estimate of his own abilities.

On 1/3/2019 at 4:42 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t think it’s a very good argument when your rationale is that George must have screwed up.  

Why not, it wouldn't be the first time? There's been a number of such issues over the length of time between books ad the number of rewrites he does. Its clear in many cases that bits of background have significantly changed between books.

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And you are also selling Alys Karstark waaay too short on her riding ability.  In fact we get a more real world example of her being an expert rider than from anything we got from Lyanna or Brandon.  Alys escapes from Karhold on horse, and she is pursued by her uncle’s hunting party, who she manages to elude on horseback all the way from Karhold to the Wall (look that up on the map).  And she does a good bit of this in the midst of a vicious snowstorm, the same snowstorm that almost does in Stannis and his army.

That doesn't tell us anything about her riding ability.

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And while Lyanna is described as being half a centaur, I contend that not only does Roose describe Alys as being half a horse we get this initial description of her from Jon’s POV:

So not only is she described as coltish, but she is described as having a long face and looking somewhat like Arya “Horseface”.

So looks equal functional abilities for you?

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And finally it makes much more sense that Alys would have been riding with Domeric.  It would have taken place in the time period when her father was trying to make her a match with one of the other Lords’ sons.  He brings her to Winterfell to try and match her with Robb.  It makes sense that Lady Dustin would have invited her to Barrowntown to see if she could have been a matchmaker between her and Domeric, whom she was fostering.

I agree with this. Alys is a reasonable chance to have spent time with Domeric.

On 1/3/2019 at 4:53 PM, Frey family reunion said:

And spending time on the Isle of Faces is not big deal?  What was he doing on the Isle of Faces?

So it appears that there is a significance to Howland’s stay at the Isle of Faces, a place he traveled to to learn more magic than what he could learn in the crannogs.

Wished to learn does not equal have the ability. 
He can also be learning other "magic", wisdom, patience, spiritual things, different skills, not necessarily any more "magical" than swampcraft.

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As for your last point, how do you think Howland’s children knew so much about how to get Brandon to open his third eye?  Who do you think taught them about opening the third eye?  And just because Howland sought out Bran, you think that somehow marganlised Howland or what he could do?  After all, Brynden also sought out Bran, and told Bran that he had been specifically watching him.  Suggesting that Bran may have the potential to be more powerful than Howland or Brynden, doesn’t also mean that Howland isn’t powerful or skillful in his own right.  

Howland can easily have learned of such things from the Green Men, and Jojen can learn of some of them in his Green Dreams as well.
But if Howland is a Greenseer then why the heck isn't he sorting out Brandon himself?
I think it much much much more likely that Howland is interested, skilled, lore-ful, but not magically capable even as much as Jojen. Hence Jojen and Meera take Brandon to Bloodraven.

[Frey family reunion]

25 minutes ago, corbon said:

Its not the talk of magic makes me uncomfortable, far from it. Its the unnecessary injection of magic into clearly mundane things and events. Especially when such is only 'required' because of extensive ignoring of the text  in terms of what is possible and relevant (smallish young women warriors beating trained men, which is somewhat dubious realistically, but extensively demonstrated in Westeros).

If your point is that the Harrenhal tourney as a whole was a mundane event, or an event not connected to some of the more supernatural aspects of the story, than I disagree.  The timing of the decision to hold the Harrenhal tourney suspiciously lines up with the conception of Aegon, which also means it lines up with the comet over King’s Landing.  A comet that Rhaegar associates with a herald of the Prince that was Promised.  And since Aemon seems to believe that the presence of the Prince that Was Promised is supposed to coincide with the War for the Dawn, then there is a decent chance that the Harrenhal tourney has something to do with some very supernatural events.  

If your point is that Howland’s desire for revenge against the knights of the three squires is the mundane event, then perhaps.  But it’s clearly an incident that Howland takes fairly seriously.  Serious enough to pray to the Old Gods for guidance.  And since it’s fairly obvious that Howland is associated with “magic”.  Now whether you want to believe that Howland’s “magic” doesn’t rise to the level of some of the other magic we’ve seen in the story fine.  But the point being is that Howland may possess some skills, mundane or otherwise that he might utilize to gaine a measure of revenge.  Unfortunately for Howland those skills don’t include horse riding, so at least in this case, he would need an assist from someone who does possess those skills.

36 minutes ago, corbon said:

That assumes the Old Gods "actively assisted" in the first place. One of the things GRRM does with religion is have very little active evidence that any of the various gods believed in by people are real. And this despite the fact that there clearly is magic in his world, with rules (often unknown) and practitioners with varying skill levels.
One of the things I really like is the sudden ability of Thoros to revive the dead. Ancient rituals he learned that always appeared to do nothing, and as such kind of killed his belief, started working again as (or so it appears to me) the magical forces of the world began to flow more freely again (apparently tied somewhat to the re-emergence of dragons, or is that chicken and egg... maybe the comet, maybe the re-emergence of the Others, maybe something else entirely.)

I associate the “Old Gods” with the telepathic and possibly telekinetic  network that comprises the “weirnet”.  So if someone is reaching out to the Old Gods, I assume that they are reaching out to the weirnet.  

 

[Frey family reunion]

39 minutes ago, corbon said:

I disagree.
The story is explicit that Howland was helpless. And frankly, his revenge is meaningless in the larger context of things. The story, for us, (though whether Meera and Jojen or even Howland know it or not) was really about the wolf girl and how she came to the attention of the Dragon Prince. But in typical Martin style its tyold in a different way from another perspective entirely, and in fact told as something of a fairy tale.
For me it makes a lot of sense that Howland was helpless to remedy the injustice done to him and that made Lyanna mad, so she, wolf blood boiling, fixed it herself.

I don’t think that’s a good takeaway from the story at all.  The story sets forth that Howland wasn’t good at a direct physical confrontation, and couldn’t ride a horse.  But the story also establishes that Howland has a wide variety of skills, was bold, and hungered for more.  The story also establishes that Howland holds a grudge.  

So I think that it’s a fairly logical step, that Howland used the skills he did have to mete out his revenge.  And we may find that this micro conflict at Harrenhal may be mirrored but amplified with things taking place behind the scenes in the current story.  Which is why we’ve been told that Crannogmen don’t fight fair.  They’re sneaks.  

As for Lyanna, I think you misunderstand me.  I’m not trying to diminish her role.  But you attribute Lyanna’s virtues to being a great jouster, something that’s not established in the story.  I think her virtue isn’t dependent on having any hidden skills at jousting.  Her virtue lies in the fact that she’s bold enough to work with Howland to teach these louts some manners.  Her boldness, and her horsemanship combined, with Howland’s skills and cunning is I think what is at display here.

[corbon]

On 1/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

We don't yet know how exactly the tourney of Harrenhal was set up. The idea that one had to challenge great champions the way it was at Ashford is not confirmed at this point, is it? I know there were also five champions defending the honor of the Whent girl, but it isn't said that all the jousting revolved around challenging them. In fact, if there had been five champions then how could Rhaegar be the sole champion in the end? Even if the champions for some reason fought each other in the end, five is an odd number leaving one champion without an opponent.

There is nothing incoherent about what we know about the Tourney of Harrenhal, and no reason to doubt any of what we are told.

There were 5 "champions" initially, and you got to be a "champion" be defeating and replacing another "champion".

There may have been other jousting, but there is no indication there was. I think its reasonable to assume that any 'side' jousting, if there was any, is irrelevant to the story.

The number of Champions is 5 because that matches Lord Whent's sons and brother defending the honour of his daughter - its his Tourney to set the rules for after all, his prizes on offer (at least officially).
5 also makes for a decent number, so there are multiple bouts on offer at once, at least early on, and choice for the contestants to encourage them to participate even if realistically they aren't going to win. Even the meanest knight has a chance for his moment of glory, or to win a bout or two or three and make a profit.
When there were no more challengers the champions fight each other, assuming they cannot agree to name the same Queen of Love and Beauty. Hence we end with one. If the original 5 had beaten all challengers they might have been named joint champions or fought each other, we don't know. I think its reasonable to assume that the Champions 'challenge' each other once there are no more challengers (possibly even before I guess, though that would surely be somewhat rude in lessening the fun for everyone else) in the same way that non-champions can challenge champions.

On 1/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

And how is it that the mystery knight after becoming a champion could challenge other champions rather than being challenged by knights who weren't champions yet? Back at Ashford no champion challenges another champion. And it is quite clear that the mystery knight only rode three tilts in the story.

Pretty easy. That Champion's shield are hanging in a row, the Mystery Knight rides up to give challenge and taps three shields one after another, rather than just one.
(s)He then rides the three bouts one after another.

On 1/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

Something is really not all that right in the story. Also that that the Blount knight lasted an entire day as champion (he rose to the position late the first day as per the story) until he was defeated by the mystery knight late in the afternoon of the second day sounds somewhat off.

Its not that difficult to imagine. He only fights at all if someone challenges him, probably most if not all the challenges on teh second day were on other champions. Perhaps the other champions were less skilled, or more interesting for new challengers.

On 1/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

It would be very convenient of the prick squires happened to be apprenticed to three great knights who all three also conveniently ended up being champions when the mystery knight entered the lists.

Oh very much so! Its very much the weakest part of the story.
This is where I think the Old Gods come in. Nothing overt as such, nothing 'real', but subtle nudges that can't even be seen as nudges, and suddenly all the stars are aligned for their 'actor' to have a chance.

On 1/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

Could therefore turn out that only one of the knights was a champion - perhaps the Blount fellow (could easily have been young Ser Boros Blount) - and that the mystery knight defeated the other knights somewhere else in the lists.

Tales grow in the telling and all that, and Meera wasn't at Harrenhal.

Sure, but there is no reason whatsoever to discount the tale. It works.

On 1/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

There is also no indication that the mystery knight himself became a champion. If it were a THK-like tourney then the mystery knight would have been a champion after defeating the first knight, causing him to be actually challenged by the other two, not being able to himself challenge other knights.

If he has already challenged all three, then (s)he must fight all three. Its also interesting drama for the crowd. And a way to whittle down the champions too.

On 1/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

If the Blount fellow lasted as long as the story claims he did he must have been a pretty good jouster considering what kind of men were actually participating in that tourney.

Perhaps yes. He, or a relation at least, is good enough to be named to the KG later...
OTOH its also possible that the Mystery Knight was his first challenger all day.

On 1/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

However, the idea that Lya needed any 'magical or divine support' to defeat knights in the lists isn't convincing.

It is quite clear that George doesn't think you have to be a powerfully built manly man to be a great or even adequate jouster.

Indeed. More and more examples of both small/slight/female jousters, and warriors, having success or with noted prowess with every book.

On 1/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

Other thing on the ability of a young man with a spear:

This is a character possibly resembling Howland Reed becoming a member of the greatest Kingsguard.

What resemblance? He uses a spear, thats it. No mention of size, no mention of nets, no mention of crannog background.
I guess the Ser could have come later, but it seems as though he was a knight.

On 1/3/2019 at 5:08 PM, Lord Varys said:

And this is Ser Pate actually causing one of the greatest Targaryen warriors considerable trouble during his training.

This might be more than a mere hint as to how we can imagine Howland Reed defeating Ser Arthur Dayne. Jousting is not fighting. And spears can kill, too. Even if Oberyn failed at that...

Of course spears can kill. And retarii were a longstanding gladiator class, even if Westerosi prejudices blind them.

[Frey family reunion]

49 minutes ago, corbon said:

Why not, it wouldn't be the first time? There's been a number of such issues over the length of time between books ad the number of rewrites he does. Its clear in many cases that bits of background have significantly changed between books.

It’s a cop out.  Don’t try to change the story to fit your theory.  Change your theory to fit the story.

 

[Frey family reunion]

51 minutes ago, corbon said:

That doesn't tell us anything about her riding ability

Umm, yes it does.  It’s analogous to Arya’s attempt to escape the Brotherhood on horseback.  Only Alys was successful, and rode a much long distance while being pursued.

52 minutes ago, corbon said:

So looks equal functional abilities for you?

No, but I think it’s intentional on the part of the author.  He’s purposefully attributing horse imagery to Alys.  As he does early on with Arya, and by extension Lyanna.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Howland can easily have learned of such things from the Green Men, and Jojen can learn of some of them in his Green Dreams as well.
But if Howland is a Greenseer then why the heck isn't he sorting out Brandon himself?
I think it much much much more likely that Howland is interested, skilled, lore-ful, but not magically capable even as much as Jojen. Hence Jojen and Meera take Brandon to Bloodraven.

Yes, I’m sure that Howland did learn much about this from the Green Men.  But why do you think that the Green Men spent so much time with Howland?

As for why Howland isn’t teaching Bran, himself, my guess is that Howland has his hands full dealing with the events south of the Neck.  After all, his best friend, was just beheaded, I don’t think Howland is going to let that go unanswered.

[corbon]

5 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s a cop out.  Don’t try to change the story to fit your theory.  Change your theory to fit the story.

 

Follow the data. The subject of the other centaur (half horse) reference is explicitly Brandon (fostered at Barrowtown) and Lyanna, daughter of Lord Rickard.

Here we learn that Domeric (page at Barrowtown) could beat even Lord Rickard's daughter, who was half-a horse. Given we've seen that description before, plus the connection to Barrowtown, I think a GRRM mistake is not a 'cop out', given the others he's made and the rewrites he does show clear evidence of small background changes over time.

25 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Umm, yes it does.  It’s analogous to Arya’s attempt to escape the Brotherhood on horseback.  Only Alys was successful, and rode a much long distance while being pursued.

No, but I think it’s intentional on the part of the author.  He’s purposefully attributing horse imagery to Alys.  As he does early on with Arya, and by extension Lyanna.

I think thats an enormous stretch of an analogy.

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Yes, I’m sure that Howland did learn much about this from the Green Men.  But why do you think that the Green Men spent so much time with Howland?

Who says they did. He spent time with them does not indicate they spent a lot of time with him.

10 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for why Howland isn’t teaching Bran, himself, my guess is that Howland has his hands full dealing with the events south of the Neck.  After all, his best friend, was just beheaded, I don’t think Howland is going to let that go unanswered.

Like I said, we can agree to disagree. 
You can read a Song of Mud and Stagnant Water, I'll read a Song of Fire and Ice. 

[Frey family reunion]

7 minutes ago, corbon said:

Follow the data. The subject of the other centaur (half horse) reference is explicitly Brandon (fostered at Barrowtown) and Lyanna, daughter of Lord Rickard.

Here we learn that Domeric (page at Barrowtown) could beat even Lord Rickard's daughter, who was half-a horse. Given we've seen that description before, plus the connection to Barrowtown, I think a GRRM mistake is not a 'cop out', given the others he's made and the rewrites he does show clear evidence of small background changes over time.

Yes, follow the data.  There are two Lord Rickards.  One has a daughter named Lyanna.  One has a daughter named Alys.  Only one of the daughters would have been of an age to have been racing horses against Domeric.  And only one ran a race against other riders from one side of Westeros to another.  

7 minutes ago, corbon said:

Like I said, we can agree to disagree. 
You can read a Song of Mud and Stagnant Water, I'll read a Song of Fire and Ice

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You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.