Jump to content
Ygrain

R+L=J v.165

Recommended Posts

24 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Excellent, @Widow's Watch! I never even considered that the men Rhaegar defeated would have met him to ransom their things. Definitely something to take into account and consider, particularly in the case of Brandon.

And it's an interaction that would be hidden in plain sight and a bit of an "oh, shit!" moment. 

13 minutes ago, Faera said:

:o

That is brilliant! I never thought about this before. God, I wish I could be the fly on the wall for that meeting...

You and me both. It dawned on me following a post by @PrettyPig in the Harrenhal thread. I wonder what kind of state Brandon left that tent in. I think him wanting to drop Rhaegar after the crowning and demanding that he comes out and die when he arrived at the Red Keep might be telling of the interaction in that tent. 

I hope Jon Conn has more than two chapters in Winds.

Edited by Widow's Watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  @Ran, don't you recall, please, where GRRM stated that Rhaegar's last word was indeed "Lyanna"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

The app confirms that the name Rhaegar spoke was Lyanna. 

Ah, thank you. Do you happen to have the full quote?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Ah, thank you. Do you happen to have the full quote?

Sure! Will also post a few other excerpts pertinent to Lyanna.

From Rhaegar Targaryen entry:

"At Harrenhal, he first beheld Lyanna Stark. He brought tears to her eyes with his singing, before crowning her his queen of love and beauty before his wife and half the realm. Sometime later, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna with the aid of Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. When word of Lyanna's abduction reached Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell stormed into the Red Keep, challenging Rhaegar to face him; Aerys's murderous response led directly to Robert's Rebellion.

Lord Robert, Robert's betrothed, was consumed by the need to avenge himself on Rhaegar, but the prince could not be found for the first months of the war. Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at the place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south.

Giving Ser Jaime the task of protecting of his wife and children, Prince Rhaegar swore that, after the war was over, he would see that changes were made - alluding to his father's burgeoning madness, which made Aerys distrust even his own son. Leading a large host to the Trident, Rhaegar met Robert in battle. Dueling on horseback in the fording of the river, Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips."

From Robert Baratheon entry:

"Thanks to his friendship with Eddard, he develops a fondness for Lyanna Stark, and in time he proposes a betrothal. Lord Rickard Stark agres to this even as Lyanna recognizes that Robert will never keep to one bed despite Eddard's assurances that Robert loves her."

From Eddard Stark entry:

"Of his siblings, Eddard loves his sister Lyanna best, and when Robert conceives a passion for her and asks for her hand in marriage, he is delighted. Eddard carries the proposal to his father, Lord Rickard, who agrees to the betrothal. Eddard assured Lyanna that Robert is a good man though she questions Eddard about the bastard daughter Robert has recently fathered in the Vale."

From Lyanna Stark entry:

"The only daughter of Lord Rickard Stark, Lyanna proved to be a strong-willed girl who grew into a slender beauty. She was a skilled horsewoman and practiced at tilting at rings. She had something of the "wolf blood" in her as well - a streak of wildness the same as her brother Brandon. She was betrothed to Lord Robert Baratheon after her brother brought Robert's suit to Winterfell.

At Lord Whent's tourney at Harrenhal, Lyanna was present with all her brothers. When the crannogman Howland Reed was set upon by squires, she chased them off with a tourney sword and tended to his wounds, thus engendering Reed's loyalty to House Stark. When Prince Rhaegar won the tourney, he bypassed his wife, Princess Elia, and instead crowned Lyanna as his queen of love and beauty. This caused much comment at the time, and eventually led to Rhaegar's abduction of Lyanna - which, in turn, lead to Robert's Rebellion. At the war's end, Lyanna Stark was found dying by her brother Eddard, and by Howland Reed, in the red mountains of Dorne, at the place Rhaegar called the tower of joy."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

So Robert is the one who approached Rickard with the proposal and not the other way around.

Yes, exactly. Some people just really love running with Barbrey's bitter assumptions, and assuming that Rickard was just going all over the place scheming and plotting. I do not doubt that Rickard might have hoped that Ned and Robert might develop a friendship which could lead to marriage ties, but if he and Steffon were involved in some plot, they had six or seven years to seal a betrothal, but no betrothal was made until Robert became lord in his own right and pushed it himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/17/2018 at 9:33 AM, Bael's Bastard said:

Yes, exactly. Some people just really love running with Barbrey's bitter assumptions, and assuming that Rickard was just going all over the place scheming and plotting. I do not doubt that Rickard might have hoped that Ned and Robert might develop a friendship which could lead to marriage ties, but if he and Steffon were involved in some plot, they had six or seven years to seal a betrothal, but no betrothal was made until Robert became lord in his own right and pushed it himself.

Agreed. I think there are more arguments against the plotting from Rickard, Hoster Tully and even Tywin than there are for them plotting against the Targaryens through these marriage alliances. 

Also, thank you for taking the time to post those quotes. A bit bummed out because I was wondering for some time if R&L hadn't known each other beforehand. I read too much in some parts of the text. But it's nice to know that Howland's unfailing loyalty to Stark has mainly to do with Lyanna and what she did for him.

And another thing. Have we ever heard of a highborn lady tending wounds? It has me wondering if it's something that is part of a lady's education or if it's something Lyanna picked up because she was interested in it.  Castles do have maesters, so I wonder.

Edited by Widow's Watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

And another thing. Have we ever heard of a highborn lady tending wounds? It has me wondering if it's something that is part of a lady's education or if it's something Lyanna picked up because she was interested in it.  Castles do have maesters, so I wonder.

Ah, well it depended on the situation. I actually wrote a thesis on the matter a few years back for a module I was doing based on the character of Gawain in Arthurian legend because a male healer is in literature and fables is rare.

One thing I will says is that a woman coming along to tend and patch up the hero's wounds is a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery common motif in medieval chivalric literature, which is what Meera is clearly trying to parody in her version of what happened. Hell, Meera treats Summer's wounds in a very similar way to these noble ladies wandering around in the woods, happening upon half-dead knights and using ointments to soothe their wounds.

Quote

Late that afternoon Summer returned from wherever he'd been hiding, dragging his back leg. He ate parts of the bodies in the inn, driving off the crows, then swam out to the island. Meera had drawn the broken arrow from his leg and rubbed the wound with the juice of some plants she found growing around the base of the tower. - Bran IV, ASoS

 

Treating wounds and healing were very much considered a "feminine" art in some respects until the shift towards an actual study of medicine rose up around the time of the Crusades. This actually led to the transmission of a lot of texts and cultural exchange as it sort of reunited the east and west again following the breakdown of the Roman empire, the two sides were able to exchange lost arts relating to healing and medicine.

Women finding a wounded knight or hero and using ointments to tend their wounds comes up a lot in Arthurian literature, to a point where you can have two or three separate instances of different women coming in to heal the heroes. It was even a case where the more traditional "female healer" was played up as more virtuous in the rise of anatomical study and surgery, which was the domain of men. I'm thinking of Cligès in particular if anyone is familiar with it, and Gawain vs his female relatives in the castle of kidnapped women from the Arthurian royal family in Conte du Graal/Parzival.

To cut a long story short, yes. This idea of a female tending wounds would not have been pulled out of someone's backside the notion is widespread enough that Lyanaa tending someone's cuts really doesn't surprise me. It is a "womanly art".

Edited by Faera
Cleaned up post

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Agreed. I think there are more arguments against the plotting from Rickard, Hoster Tully and even Tywin than there are for them plotting against the Targaryens through these marriage alliances. 

Also, thank you for taking the time to post those quotes. A bit bummed out because I was wondering for some time if R&L hadn't known each other beforehand. But it's nice to know that Howland's unfailing loyalty to Stark has mainly to do with Lyanna and what she did for him.

And another thing. Have we ever heard of a highborn lady tending wounds? It has me wondering if it's something that is part of a lady's education or if it's something Lyanna picked up because she was interested in it.  Castles do have maesters, so I wonder.

@Widow's Watch

You're welcome, glad to post them.

I agree. No matter how badly their relationship had deteriorated, for his part, Tywin was still the Hand of the King and was still himself scheming to marry Cersei to a Targaryen prince up to the moment he found out that Aerys was naming Jaime to the Kingsguard.

Hoster Tully was trying to marry his daughter into a family that had ambitions to marry the Targaryens, not rebel against them. It stretches credulity that Hoster went to King's Landing to negotiate an anti-Aerys or anti-Targaryen pact with Tywin under Aerys's nose.

Of course, there is a good chance that these negotiations might have led to Aerys's suspicions about Tywin  extending to include the Tullys, as I suspect Rhaegar naming Lyanna QOLAB might have led to Aerys's suspicions about Rhaegar extending to include the Starks.

But that is much different than Rickard Stark, Steffon Baratheon/Robert Baratheon, Hoster Tully, and/or Jon Arryn actually having anti-Aerys or anti-Targaryen intentions behind their friendships, fosterings, and betrothals, which I believe there is no hint of.

Only a number of months into the war, after Lord Steffon and Lord Rickard were already dead, and Lord Eddard and Lord Robert's heads called for, were marriages made between Stark, Tully, and Arryn with the clear intent of defeating and removing Aerys and House Targaryen.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Faera, The info you provided is great, but I'm talking specifically about the text. Meera being able to take care of Summer's hurts makes sense because of where she comes from and because she says that they don't have a maester at Greywater Watch. Lyanna's family does have a maester. 

@Bael's Bastard, with regard to southron ambitions, you forgot to mention that devil Maester Walys. Hoster Tully was trying to marry Edmure to Arianne, well after the Targaryens were gone. For me, Hoster Tully's motives are very clear. I think he was trying to check Walder Frey whose tentacles extend far and wide with his 9 marriages and his army of children and grandchildren being married off into the westerlands, the reach, the riverlands and the Vale. Anyway, I'll likely be making a separate thread about all of this once I have all the notes pulled together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

@Bael's Bastard, with regard to southron ambitions, you forgot to mention that devil Maester Walys. Hoster Tully was trying to marry Edmure to Arianne, well after the Targaryens were gone. For me, Hoster Tully's motives are very clear. I think he was trying to check Walder Frey whose tentacles extend far and wide with his 9 marriages and his army of children and grandchildren being married off into the westerlands, the reach, the riverlands and the Vale. Anyway, I'll likely be making a separate thread about all of this once I have all the notes pulled together.

@Widow's Watch

Sounds good. There was also the attempt to marry the Blackfish to Bethany Redwyne, whose house would remain loyal to House Targaryen during Robert's Rebellion.

For their part, it is worth noting that House Tully owed their status as a great house to House Targaryen, and were among the last non-Targaryen houses considered worthy to marry into the royal line, together with House Baratheon, House Tyrell, and House Redwyne, before Rhaegar married Elia Martell.

Had Jaehaerys II not broken his betrothal to marry the sister he loved, Celia Tully would have been his queen.

So in betrothing his heir to the eldest Tully sibling, and his only daughter to Lord Baratheon, Lord Rickard was actually going to marry his children into the very houses whose daughters had been betrothed to Prince Duncan and Prince Jaehaerys.

It's crazy to me that people don't see the obvious ambition that these betrothals hint at, and actually think that Lord Rickard's "ambition" was to go to war with the Iron Throne he was so obviously trying to get closer to.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Lyanna's family does have a maester.

I'd say that treating scratches and bruises is a very practical skill which doesn't require much expertise, and one that a wild girl practicing sports that her father disapproves of might want to master, so that she doesn't have to go see the maester every time she or Benjen get themselves some.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

@Faera, The info you provided is great, but I'm talking specifically about the text. Meera being able to take care of Summer's hurts makes sense because of where she comes from and because she says that they don't have a maester at Greywater Watch. Lyanna's family does have a maester. 

 

2

Nothing about what Lyanna seems to have done seems all that remarkable. On a practical level, she would have at most stopped a bloody lip and a few scratches, things I have done while out playing when I was a kid for my friends. There is nothing to suggest Lyanna had any special knowledge of healing or anything like that. I certainly don't see her administering leeches or concocting any special ointments from what is written.

My point really was that it probably sounds more impressive the way Meera is telling it because she is very likely parodying the incredibly common trope of the maiden magically healing the hero.

In real life, if Howland was seriously hurt I imagine Lyanna would have taken him to a maester.

Quote

I'd say that treating scratches and bruises is a very practical skill which doesn't require much expertise, and one that a wild girl practicing sports that her father disapproves of might want to master, so that she doesn't have to go see the maester every time she or Benjen get themselves some.

3

Good point @Ygrain.

Speaking from experience, looking after scrapes and cuts is pretty basic knowledge. I grew up on a semi-marshlands with big hills, fields, trees to climb etc... so we were often scraping, bruising and cutting ourselves (or falling into nettles, OUCH!) and looking after that sort of stuff is "Old Wives Tale" level common sense. Especially since Lyanna might have had experience in patching up Benjen after play-fighting with him. ^_^

Edited by Faera

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, what's up fellas! last time I was here r+l=j had only rolled over 94 times I believe... Anyhoo, was wondering if anyeone had any developing info on twow? Peace! 

 

P.s. The kg @ toj (Whent Hightower and Dayne) knew Rhaegars intent concerning daddy and the throne and were still Rhaegars men. This is why I believe Ned respected them so. 

Edited by Arlan of Pennytree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I made a topic called R + L  ≠ J and for some reason a mod locked it again, with the reason stated as its the same as R + L = J, when they are not the ssme atal imo, beginning to get really irritated at mods locking every topic i make, anyway here is what i said:

 

Ok any topic i post mentioning winds gets locked, so heres a crackpot theory. 

R + L    J

R + L = J is very widely accepted. but what if its wrong ? I know all the reasons its accepted but what about the reasons against it ?

Don't you think Ned would of told jon hes true heritage before he joined the Nights watch? Kind of a big thing to deny him his true hertiage before he gave everything up and swore his vows, isnt it?

The watch would/could not protect jon if robert found out the secret while he was a member of the nights watch either, also if/when jon found out his true lineage and was a member of the nights watch after swearing the vows he can never leave after joining pretty much on false pretences, he joined because felt had no place in the world, would ned risk jon resenting him for that ?

Also given Neds knowledge of roberts hatred of targaryens wouldnt it of been safer if Ned had howland reed take the child if it had been R + L's ? Given how no one knows much about the crannogmen (sorry if my spelling is off) and how basically impenetrable there lands are wouldnt the child be much safer there?

Which would draw far less questions about the most honourable man in the series besmirching his honour? Because there would be no questions to answer

i know how unlikely R + L = J not being true is at this point, but there 2 points that popped into my head about it, anyone have any thoughts ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, IronBars said:

I made a topic called R + L  ≠ J and for some reason a mod locked it again, with the reason stated as its the same as R + L = J, when they are not the ssme atal imo, beginning to get really irritated at mods locking every topic i make, anyway here is what i said:

 

Reasons for or against are still the part of the same topic.

48 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Ok any topic i post mentioning winds gets locked, so heres a crackpot theory. 

R + L    J

R + L = J is very widely accepted. but what if its wrong ? I know all the reasons its accepted but what about the reasons against it ?

Don't you think Ned would of told jon hes true heritage before he joined the Nights watch? Kind of a big thing to deny him his true hertiage before he gave everything up and swore his vows, isnt it?

What true heritage? The Targaryens have been removed from power and the throne is occupied by Ned's best friend. If Jon wanted "his true heritage", it would mean waging another civil war, and that's something Ned definitely wouldn't want.

48 minutes ago, IronBars said:

The watch would/could not protect jon if robert found out the secret while he was a member of the nights watch either,

Based on what? Aemon Targaryen was safe in the Watch, after all. The Watch is not subject to the king's authority. Do you see Jeor Mormont let Robert take Jon?

48 minutes ago, IronBars said:

also if/when jon found out his true lineage and was a member of the nights watch after swearing the vows he can never leave after joining pretty much on false pretences, he joined because felt had no place in the world, would ned risk jon resenting him for that ?

And how would it help Jon knowing his heritage, which he wouldn't be able to claim without a war, in which he would have to fight against Ned?

And as a parent, I can tell you that risking your child resenting you is actually preferable to risking your child's life, and for all purposes, Ned is Jon's father, even if he didn't conceive him.

48 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Also given Neds knowledge of roberts hatred of targaryens wouldnt it of been safer if Ned had howland reed take the child if it had been R + L's ? Given how no one knows much about the crannogmen (sorry if my spelling is off) and how basically impenetrable there lands are wouldnt the child be much safer there?

Perhaps, but that would largely depend on the exact promise to Lyanna. If she tasked Ned with taking care of Jon, then Ned would do just that, do the task himself rather than relegate it to another.

48 minutes ago, IronBars said:

Which would draw far less questions about the most honourable man in the series besmirching his honour? Because there would be no questions to answer

What questions? Where do we see people doubting that Ned sired Jon?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Reasons for or against are still the part of the same topic.

Yes, but in a thread dedicated to pointing out why R + L = J, seems reasons against it should have its own thread so people can easily find them, no ?

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

What true heritage? The Targaryens have been removed from power and the throne is occupied by Ned's best friend. If Jon wanted "his true heritage", it would mean waging another civil war, and that's something Ned definitely wouldn't want.

What true heritage? Um that he is part stark part targaryen, a persons heritage is their ethnic and cultural background, the throne would be his birthright (if ned knows he is a legitimate son, which he might not, that is ambiguous) not his heritage so, im not sure why mention civil war.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Based on what? Aemon Targaryen was safe in the Watch, after all. The Watch is not subject to the king's authority. Do you see Jeor Mormont let Robert take Jon?

There is no reason/evidence to assume robert new Aemon was a targaryen. Also i was thinking more along the lines of robert hiring assasins to kill jon like he did dany because hes hatred of targaryens runs so deep. But Actually the point you made reinforces my own, when you join the nights watch you give up all claim to lands and titles and your name, so what better time to tell jon???  First - so he knows what he is giving up and Second - because he is safe now.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And as a parent, I can tell you that risking your child resenting you is actually preferable to risking your child's life, and for all purposes, Ned is Jon's father, even if he didn't conceive him.

See above when jon took the black his life wouldnt be in danger as you said and of howland reed had took the baby hes life wouldnt of been in danger either.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Perhaps, but that would largely depend on the exact promise to Lyanna. If she tasked Ned with taking care of Jon, then Ned would do just that, do the task himself rather than relegate it to another.

He could still of took care of him by giving the child to howland,  unless she said raise him as your son.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

What questions? Where do we see people doubting that Ned sired Jon?

 

The question of jons parentage is a massive question in the books, giving the child to howland reed would of stopped people questoning whos jons mother was, you seem to of mis-read this point.

If there is any spelling errors i apologise posted this using my phone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×