R+L=J v.165

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

Yes, but in a thread dedicated to pointing out why R + L = J, seems reasons against it should have its own thread so people can easily find them, no ?

The thread is dedicated to everything RLJ, even the counterpoints

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

What true heritage? Um that he is part stark part targaryen, a persons heritage is their ethnic and cultural background, the throne would be his birthright (if ned knows he is a legitimate son, which he might not, that is ambiguous) not his heritage so, im not sure why mention civil war.

Because finding out who he truly is won't make him any happier. He cannot proclaim his lineage, he cannot claim his legacy unless he is willing to throw the kingdom into a bloody chaos to depose Robert. 

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

There is no reason/evidence to assume robert new Aemon was a targaryen. Also i was thinking more along the lines of robert hiring assasins to kill jon like he did dany because hes hatred of targaryens runs so deep.

The point with assassins is certainly more valid, but should Jon's parentage become known, where would he be safe from those? With NW, he is as far away as it gets, in a closely knit community which strangers cannot infiltrate without being noticed.

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

But Actually the point you made reinforces my own, when you join the nights watch you give up all claim to lands and titles and your name, so what better time to tell jon???  First - so he knows what he is giving up and Second - because he is safe now.

Sorry but at the time when Jon departs from Winterfell, he is not safe yet, because he hasn't taken the vows. And telling him when there are actually months ahead during which he can ponder over the rights he has been denied sounds like an exceptionally bad idea. What if he changes his mind about the NW, what then? 

It may have been a plan for Benjen to tell him (if he knew) right prior taking the vows, but Benjen got lost.

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

See above when jon took the black his life wouldnt be in danger as you said and of howland reed had took the baby hes life wouldnt of been in danger either.

Provided that Jon wanted to stay among the crannogmen all his life, which, in fact, would in no way be a given. He would see clearly that he is not a crannogman. Crannogmen aren't known to consort with the rest of the population, so how would Howland explain to Jon who he was and how he got there? And what would prevent Jon to leave and start looking for his true parents once he came of age?

Not such an easy solution as it seems when you start thinking about it.

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

He could still of took care of him by giving the child to howland,  unless she said raise him as your son.

Sorry but if you promise to look after a child, you are definitely not doing that if you leave him in someone else's custody. If you make that promise, then you are the person who must raise the child. 

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

The question of jons parentage is a massive question in the books, giving the child to howland reed would of stopped people questoning whos jons mother was, you seem to of mis-read this point.

It is a massive question only for the people in Ned's own household - who, however, never question their lord's capability to have "slipped" once. The rest of Westeros cannot be bothered, except Robert, for understandable reasons, and even he doesn't pry much.

 

[IronBars]

34 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Because finding out who he truly is won't make him any happier. He cannot proclaim his lineage, he cannot claim his legacy unless he is willing to throw the kingdom into a bloody chaos to depose Robert. .

 

You assume here that Jon is 1st a legitimate child and 2nd Ned knows this, at this point nothing supports either one of those. Also if he is a targaryen finding out is his right regardless if makes him happy or not, before making a life altering decision he should of known who he truly was.

36 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

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The point with assassins is certainly more valid, but should Jon's parentage become known, where would he be safe from those? With NW, he is as far away as it gets, in a closely knit community which strangers cannot infiltrate without being noticed..

 

Again this supports why ned should of told jon, as well as in the NW he gives up all claims to land, title and name as i said previously.

41 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

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Sorry but at the time when Jon departs from Winterfell, he is not safe yet, because he hasn't taken the vows. And telling him when there are actually months ahead during which he can ponder over the rights he has been denied sounds like an exceptionally bad idea. What if he changes his mind about the NW, what then? .

 

Again this is a reason for Ned to of told him.

42 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

It may have been a plan for Benjen to tell him (if he knew) right prior taking the vows, but Benjen got lost.

 

Ned never told cat so safe to assume he didnt tell benjen i think

44 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

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Provided that Jon wanted to stay among the crannogmen all his life, which, in fact, would in no way be a given. He would see clearly that he is not a crannogman. Crannogmen aren't known to consort with the rest of the population, so how would Howland explain to Jon who he was and how he got there? And what would prevent Jon to leave and start looking for his true parents once he came of age?

Not such an easy solution as it seems when you start thinking about it..

 

Jon would of been a baby without a choice, would he of noticed he was different? Maybe, meera isn't exactly characteristic of a crannogmen so that argument has its flaws. The fact crannogmen dont consort with wider population is also an argument why he would of been safer there.

47 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

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Sorry but if you promise to look after a child, you are definitely not doing that if you leave him in someone else's custody. If you make that promise, then you are the person who must raise the child. 

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You assume he was made promise to look after the child, what if he was made promise to protect the child ? What better place then with the crannogmen?

 

49 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

 

It is a massive question only for the people in Ned's own household - who, however, never question their lord's capability to have "slipped" once. The rest of Westeros cannot be bothered, except Robert, for understandable reasons, and even he doesn't pry much.

 

Again this is not true we see a number of times outside winterfell it being mentioned as well as times its said how ned forgot his honour once, several different times, We are presented with several stories of jons mother, but in each one ned dishonoured himself whereas if howland reed took the child ned would not of had to lie and dishonour himself that way or in everyone elses eyes by having a bastard, 

People assume R+L=J, people assume jon is TPWWP and people assume jon is azor ahai reborn,  grrm has said jon isnt the hero of the story and has said the starks arent the main people in the story but nearly everyone attributes everything to jon like hes the hero and the starks like they are the main people, you not find that very questionable? GRRM wants to break fantasy cliches and troups, R+L=J, TPWWP, AA, are all fantasy troupes and cliches

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, IronBars said:

You assume here that Jon is 1st a legitimate child and 2nd Ned knows this, at this point nothing supports either one of those. Also if he is a targaryen finding out is his right regardless if makes him happy or not, before making a life altering decision he should of known who he truly was.

I'm assuming nothing. Legitimate or not, Jon's Targaryen heritage gives him absolutely no options for the future, only a burden of danger of what would happen to him if anyone found out, and to Ned for protecting him. There is no heritage he could come to, unless he was willing to ally with Viserys, or try to throw in his own claim. The importance of his heritage is void because there is no heritage he could claim.

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Again this supports why ned should of told jon, as well as in the NW he gives up all claims to land, title and name as i said previously.

Again this is a reason for Ned to of told him.

Support how? The knowledge doesn't help in any way, it only brings burden and danger, and at the point of time when Ned would have told him, Jon was not protected by the NW vows yet.  

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Ned never told cat so safe to assume he didnt tell benjen i think

And I don't see any basis for such an assumption. Cat was a completely unknown person. Benjen was family, and he even may have been private to some of Lyanna's plans. Who's to say he didn't even figure out on his own whose child Jon really was?

- That said, I'm not claiming it is a certain thing that Benjen knew, only that I find your particular argument unconvincing.

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Jon would of been a baby without a choice, would he of noticed he was different? Maybe, meera isn't exactly characteristic of a crannogmen so that argument has its flaws. The fact crannogmen dont consort with wider population is also an argument why he would of been safer there.

I wasn't talking about the time when Jon was a baby. What would he do when he was fifteen, twenty? Believe that he was a crannogman who just grew too much?

Not sure what you mean with the Meera reference here. We know that her father Howland at the time of HH was smaller than any of the fifteen-year-old squires and that the small size is typical for the crannogmen.

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You assume he was made promise to look after the child, what if he was made promise to protect the child ? What better place then with the crannogmen?

You asked about a reason why Ned wouldn't give the baby to Howland. I offered you a potential scenario, so why are you turning it now into "you assume"? I only pointed out a mistake in your reasoning when you claimed that Ned could have had Howland take care of the baby even though it was Ned who would have made the promise to do so. The promise could have gone in quite a couple of ways - like his own son, like a Stark, to look after him...

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Again this is not true we see a number of times outside winterfell it being mentioned as well as times its said how ned forgot his honour once, several different times, We are presented with several stories of jons mother, but in each one ned dishonoured himself whereas if howland reed took the child ned would not of had to lie and dishonour himself that way or in everyone elses eyes by having a bastard, 

And where do you see those people showing any special interest? You started with an argument that "people were asking questions" but that is not the same as spinning fancy scenarios about who Ned Stark may have banged. Sure, it's a nice piece of gossip, but people are not really investigating or anything, no-one ever questions the truth of the story. Lord Borrell doesn't seem to lose any sleep over the fisherman's daughter story, does he?

And sorry but even if Ned gave Jon to Howland, he would still have to lie about what happened to Lyanna, so there is no help in this respect. And as for dishonoring himself - we see him lie and dishonor himself twice, to protect his loved ones. Apparently, his honour is not as precious to him when it comes to family, so that is really not an argument. 

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People assume R+L=J, people assume jon is TPWWP and people assume jon is azor ahai reborn,  grrm has said jon isnt the hero of the story and has said the starks arent the main people in the story but nearly everyone attributes everything to jon like hes the hero and the starks like they are the main people, you not find that very questionable? GRRM wants to break fantasy cliches and troups, R+L=J, TPWWP, AA, are all fantasy troupes and cliches

You seem to assume an awful lot about what people assume, sorry. Some perhaps do. Other people's assumptions are not my problem, and I prefer to stick with what's stated in the text.

Plus, since we don't know yet what exactly the PTWP or AA is, or if it even is a good thing to be, there is no telling if Jon is, or should, be those. Fortunately, figuring out RLJ doesn't rely on these in the least.

 

ETA: we could argue - and it has been done on the forums - if Ned's decision not to tell Jon about his true identity was moral or not. However, you cannot poise it as a counterpoint to RLJ, because it does make sense, as a pragmatics decision not to burden Jon and protect him even from himself, should the reveal prompt him into something rash.

[IronBars]

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I'm assuming nothing. Legitimate or not, Jon's Targaryen heritage gives him absolutely no options for the future, only a burden of danger of what would happen to him if anyone found out, and to Ned for protecting him. There is no heritage he could come to, unless he was willing to ally with Viserys, or try to throw in his own claim. The importance of his heritage is void because there is no heritage he could claim.

Ok, you arent assuming anything ? Yet everything you say assumes R+L=J.

Hes heritage isnt void, where you come from and who you are is of vast importance.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Support how? The knowledge doesn't help in any way, it only brings burden and danger, and at the point of time when Ned would have told him, Jon was not protected by the NW vows yet.  

If R+L=J then the burdan you speak of its Jons not Neds, and jon has a right to know before gives everything up,  Ned doesnt have the right to do that, unless R+L=J isnt true and there is nothing to tell......

Yes jon might not of been protected yet, would it of changed his mind about joining the NW ? Who knows, no one knows if he is or isnt rhaegar and lyannas son yet let alone if he is legitimate or a bastard.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

And I don't see any basis for such an assumption. Cat was a completely unknown person. Benjen was family, and he even may have been private to some of Lyanna's plans. Who's to say he didn't even figure out on his own whose child Jon really was?

- That said, I'm not claiming it is a certain thing that Benjen knew, only that I find your particular argument unconvincing.

In the 14 years ? I think jon is 14 years old at start of the first book, your saying ned never trusted cat enough to tell her jon was lyannas via rhaegar ? Seriously ?? When she treated jon terribly ? 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I wasn't talking about the time when Jon was a baby. What would he do when he was fifteen, twenty? Believe that he was a crannogman who just grew too much?

Not sure what you mean with the Meera reference here. We know that her father Howland at the time of HH was smaller than any of the fifteen-year-old squires and that the small size is typical for the crannogmen.

Meera was mentioned because she doesnt look like a crannigman same as jon wouldnt

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

 

You asked about a reason why Ned wouldn't give the baby to Howland. I offered you a potential scenario, so why are you turning it now into "you assume"? I only pointed out a mistake in your reasoning when you claimed that Ned could have had Howland take care of the baby even though it was Ned who would have made the promise to do so. The promise could have gone in quite a couple of ways - like his own son, like a Stark, to look after him...

I didnt ask for a reason why ned wouldnt of gave the baby to howland, you gave a reason for it and i countered it. 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

And where do you see those people showing any special interest? You started with an argument that "people were asking questions" but that is not the same as spinning fancy scenarios about who Ned Stark may have banged. Sure, it's a nice piece of gossip, but people are not really investigating or anything, no-one ever questions the truth of the story. Lord Borrell doesn't seem to lose any sleep over the fisherman's daughter story, does he?

And sorry but even if Ned gave Jon to Howland, he would still have to lie about what happened to Lyanna, so there is no help in this respect. And as for dishonoring himself - we see him lie and dishonor himself twice, to protect his loved ones. Apparently, his honour is not as precious to him when it comes to family, so that is really not an argument. 

Again i didnt say people were asking questions, i said if he had let howland take the baby there would of been no questions, also saying there is a question of his parentage and saying people asked questions are very different things, you have been mixing them up.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

You seem to assume an awful lot about what people assume, sorry. Some perhaps do. Other people's assumptions are not my problem, and I prefer to stick with what's stated in the text.

Plus, since we don't know yet what exactly the PTWP or AA is, or if it even is a good thing to be, there is no telling if Jon is, or should, be those. Fortunately, figuring out RLJ doesn't rely on these in the least.

 

ETA: we could argue - and it has been done on the forums - if Ned's decision not to tell Jon about his true identity was moral or not. However, you cannot poise it as a counterpoint to RLJ, because it does make sense, as a pragmatics decision not to burden Jon and protect him even from himself, should the reveal prompt him into something rash.

You assume R+L=J, so thats what i was pointing out, not sure if you think Jon is TPWWP and AA?

And i disagree, ned not telling jon he was really the son of rhaegar and lyanna before he made the biggest choice of his life is a counter arguement to it, because makes more sense ned said nothing because hes mother was no one in particular so he would still be who he thinks he is........

[Faera]

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

You assume here that Jon is 1st a legitimate child and 2nd Ned knows this, at this point nothing supports either one of those. Also if he is a targaryen finding out is his right regardless if makes him happy or not, before making a life altering decision he should of known who he truly was.

I really don't see it making a difference either way. Jon's safety was more important to Ned before any aetherial right he may or may not have.

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Ned never told cat so safe to assume he didnt tell benjen i think

 

I personally suspect Benjen knew without Ned having to directly tell him.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Provided that Jon wanted to stay among the crannogmen all his life, which, in fact, would in no way be a given. He would see clearly that he is not a crannogman. Crannogmen aren't known to consort with the rest of the population, so how would Howland explain to Jon who he was and how he got there? And what would prevent Jon to leave and start looking for his true parents once he came of age?

Not such an easy solution as it seems when you start thinking about it.

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

Jon would of been a baby without a choice, would he of noticed he was different? Maybe, meera isn't exactly characteristic of a crannogmen so that argument has its flaws. The fact crannogmen dont consort with wider population is also an argument why he would of been safer there

I agree in principle that it would have been a good idea to have Howland ward Jon in the Neck. However, if there had been an agreement like that, (which I think might have been considered by the two men on their long journey back North), they still would have needed to pass him off as Ned's bastard. The kid clearly isn't a crannogman and it'll only become more apparent as he grows up. It's unreasonable to expect Howland to pass the boy off as his bastard by a non-crannogwoman because he had his own wife and baby.

From what has been said, Meera is very characteristic of a crannogman. There is even a big in one of Bran's chapters where he reflects on this...

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Meera Reed was sixteen, a woman grown, but she stood no higher than her brother. All the crannogmen were small, she told Bran once when he asked why she wasn't taller. Brown-haired, green-eyed, and flat as a boy, she walked with a supple grace that Bran could only watch and envy. - Bran I, ASoS

In the same chapter, Bran reflects that at 13-years-old, Jojen is no more than about three-inches taller than Bran (who is 9-years-old). Maybe Jojen will still grow taller but given a c. 18-year-old Howland was still shorter than a group of 15-year-old squires, it doesn't look like nature is on his side. Bottom line, I think it wouldn't be long before Jon had a growth spurt where he's towering over everyone. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised anyone over about 5'4ish in the Neck gains the nickname "The Giant". 

So, Jon would have grown up feeling even more of an outsider and would abandonment issues on top of it. At least staying with Ned allowed him to have some semblance of a happy childhood.

2 hours ago, IronBars said:

People assume R+L=J, people assume jon is TPWWP and people assume jon is azor ahai reborn,  grrm has said jon isnt the hero of the story and has said the starks arent the main people in the story but nearly everyone attributes everything to jon like hes the hero and the starks like they are the main people, you not find that very questionable? GRRM wants to break fantasy cliches and troups, R+L=J, TPWWP, AA, are all fantasy troupes and cliches

My thoughts on the various prophecies and their involvement in the story are completely independent of my opinions on R+L=J or Jon the character as a whole. I came to the idea of Jon being Lyanna's son based on what I read in the books by myself, independently of the internet or this forum -- well before I even realised it was "a thing". I even remember vividly the moment it sort of clicked in my head. (Seriously, I felt so gosh darn clever at the time...)

Whether Jon is "the hero" or not (given the number of POVs in these books, I don't see how anyone can honestly call any single character "the" hero) has no bearing on whether RLJ is true for me. In fact, it feels very much in line with GRRM's subversion of expectations because the set-up in the books themselves are very "bait-and-switch". He sets up the mystery over who Jon's mother is by suggesting various possibilities (Wylla, Ashara Dayne or the daughter of the ferrier), only to turn the entire thing on its head.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, IronBars said:

Jon would of been a baby without a choice, would he of noticed he was different? Maybe, meera isn't exactly characteristic of a crannogmen so that argument has its flaws. The fact crannogmen dont consort with wider population is also an argument why he would of been safer there.

But this comes with age. Jon didn't think he was different from Robb until he learned what the word bastard meant, at a very early age. Eventually, Jon would have noticed the differences between he and the others, or heard talk and went to Howland for answers that the man may not even have been able to provide him with.

The other thing is that we don't know what kind of promises Ned made Lyanna. Does protecting Jon include keeping him away from the Iron Throne? Is this something she explicitly asked of Ned, or does he think it's part of it? 

27 minutes ago, Faera said:

Whether Jon is "the hero" or not (given the number of POVs in these books, I don't see how anyone can honestly call any single character "the" hero) has no bearing on whether RLJ is true for me. In fact, it feels very much in line with GRRM's subversion of expectations because the set-up in the books themselves are very "bait-and-switch". He sets up the mystery over who Jon's mother is by suggesting various possibilities (Wylla, Ashara Dayne or the daughter of the ferrier), only to turn the entire thing on its head.

This basically. The big mystery is the mother. Heck, even Lommy Greenhands heard about Ned Stark's bastard all the way down in Flea Bottom. 

[IronBars]

41 minutes ago, Faera said:

I really don't see it making a difference either way. Jon's safety was more important to Ned before any aetherial right he may or may not have.

Jons safety was just as much in question on the wall just being a member of the NW as it was when he was growing up, perhaps more so actually given what was going on at the time

41 minutes ago, Faera said:

I agree in principle that it would have been a good idea to have Howland ward Jon in the Neck. However, if there had been an agreement like that, (which I think might have been considered by the two men on their long journey back North), they still would have needed to pass him off as Ned's bastard. The kid clearly isn't a crannogman and it'll only become more apparent as he grows up. It's unreasonable to expect Howland to pass the boy off as his bastard by a non-crannogwoman because he had his own wife and baby.

From what has been said, Meera is very characteristic of a crannogman. There is even a big in one of Bran's chapters where he reflects on this...

If howland had taken the baby to the neck, he could of went to winterfell at age 7/8/9 as a ward of winterfell, accomplishing the same thing and it being less of an issue and more hidden.

 Im 99% certain that somewhere its said meera also looked like arya/lyanna

42 minutes ago, Faera said:

My thoughts on the various prophecies and their involvement in the story are completely independent of my opinions on R+L=J or Jon the character as a whole. I came to the idea of Jon being Lyanna's son based on what I read in the books by myself, independently of the internet or this forum -- well before I even realised it was "a thing". I even remember vividly the moment it sort of clicked in my head. (Seriously, I felt so gosh darn clever at the time...)

Whether Jon is "the hero" or not (given the number of POVs in these books, I don't see how anyone can honestly call any single character "the" hero) has no bearing on whether RLJ is true for me. In fact, it feels very much in line with GRRM's subversion of expectations because the set-up in the books themselves are very "bait-and-switch". He sets up the mystery over who Jon's mother is by suggesting various possibilities (Wylla, Ashara Dayne or the daughter of the ferrier), only to turn the entire thing on its head.

If you look through the forum its very clear most think jon is the TPWWP/AA, to have the big mystery about his parentage and then for him to be that as well is unbelievably cliche, 

As i said before im 99% certain R+L=J is true, i also figured that out via the books not online, 

But i think the fact ned said nothing about it when jon left for the wall makes it questionable. Firstly for the fact he doesnt know who he really is, or what he is giving up (has a right to decide that himself) and also because hes life will be in danger there anyway

 

[IronBars]

11 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

But this comes with age. Jon didn't think he was different from Robb until he learned what the word bastard meant, at a very early age. Eventually, Jon would have noticed the differences between he and the others, or heard talk and went to Howland for answers that the man may not even have been able to provide him with.

As i said in the last post,howland could of took the baby, and at 7/8/9 jon could of become a ward of winterfell, which would hide him better and make him feel less an outsider in winterfell because no one there would no any different either,

13 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

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The other thing is that we don't know what kind of promises Ned made Lyanna. Does protecting Jon include keeping him away from the Iron Throne? Is this something she explicitly asked of Ned, or does he think it's part of it? 

This basically. The big mystery is the mother. Heck, even Lommy Greenhands heard about Ned Stark's bastard all the way down in Flea Bottom. 

Exactly dont know what promises he made lyanna, unless he specfically promised to raise him as hes son there was safer ways to hide him.

If indeed R+L=J is true, i know i keep saying it but people treat it as fact when it isnt, 

Tv show spoiler

Spoiler

I know on the tv show R+L=J, but on the tv show they gave certain character arcs from the book to other characters, ie greyscale moved from jon con to jorah, 

Now Jons true name is aegon targaryan, but wait there was already an aegon, hardly name 2 kids the same name......then with the moving of character arcs and there being a character claiming to be the real aegon, maybe they combined those character arcs aswell. Also just to say i think its really aegon not faegon in the books

 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

18 minutes ago, IronBars said:

If indeed R+L=J is true, i know i keep saying it but people treat it as fact when it isnt,

No, it's not a fact, but I think there are enough clues pointing to RLJ. I know when my "oh, shit" moment happened. Hopefully, the mystery will be solved in Winds rather than the last book. If Jon's parentage could be put to rest, that would be a plus.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, IronBars said:

Im 99% certain that somewhere its said meera also looked like arya/lyanna

I think you are thinking of this, from Clash, Bran IV:

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"He wouldn't hurt you. He knows I like you." All of the other lords and knights had departed within a day or two of the harvest feast, but the Reeds had stayed to become Bran's constant companions. Jojen was so solemn that Old Nan called him "little grandfather," but Meera reminded Bran of his sister Arya. She wasn't scared to get dirty, and she could run and fight and throw as good as a boy. She was older than Arya, though; almost sixteen, a woman grown. They were both older than Bran, even though his ninth name day had finally come and gone, but they never treated him like a child.

Meera does remind Bran of Arya. But this not based on looks. It is based on behavior.

[Faera]

1 hour ago, IronBars said:

Jons safety was just as much in question on the wall just being a member of the NW as it was when he was growing up, perhaps more so actually given what was going on at the time.

 

Let me phrase it better. Ned probably didn't want to run the risk of what he did ever getting out because of the more immediate risk it might pose to Jon as well as the rest of the family. He just wanted to let sleeping dogs lie even if it meant living with that lie forever.

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If howland had taken the baby to the neck, he could of went to winterfell at age 7/8/9 as a ward of winterfell, accomplishing the same thing and it being less of an issue and more hidden.

 Im 99% certain that somewhere its said meera also looked like arya/lyanna

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Ned wanted to keep Jon with him for himself regardless of how much more practical sending him to the Neck was. Howland might have been perfectly willing to foster Jon but Ned just wanted to keep him for love's sake.

(EDIT: @OtherFromAnotherMother got to it before me but...) the closest we ever get to a Meera-Arya comparison as far as I can recall is this bit:

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Meera reminded Bran of his sister Arya. She wasn't scared to get dirty, and she could run and fight and throw as good as a boy. She was older than Arya, though; almost sixteen, a woman grown. Bran IV, ACoK

He never says she looks like Arya, only that they share what I'd call similar "tomboyish" qualities.

Don't get me wrong, I think thematically there definitely is an echo between characters like Lyanna-Meera-Arya but at no point are we led to believe that Meera looks like anything other than a typical denizen of the Crannogs.

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If you look through the forum its very clear most think jon is the TPWWP/AA, to have the big mystery about his parentage and then for him to be that as well is unbelievably cliche, 

Well, I'm not one of them for the reasons stated, so... 

Again, even if "most" think Jon is TPtwP or whatever, it has no bearing on RLJ for me so I don't really care.

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But i think the fact ned said nothing about it when jon left for the wall makes it questionable. Firstly for the fact he doesnt know who he really is, or what he is giving up (has a right to decide that himself) and also because hes life will be in danger there anyway

Well, if it feels like a deal breaker for you then that's fine. It really doesn't feel like that much of an issue to me so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I can understand why Ned chose not to tell Jon then and might have never intended to tell him. Whether it was right or not can be debated. Personally, I can see why he would choose not to tell the boy he has loved and raised as his son that none of that was true. It's an emotionally challenging thing as it is, runs the risk of the secret getting out and various other things. He just didn't want to open that old would for himself or that can of worms with Jon. Perhaps with was cowardly but I get it. To him, the lie felt safer and easy. 

[IronBars]

40 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

No, it's not a fact, but I think there are enough clues pointing to RLJ. I know when my "oh, shit" moment happened. Hopefully, the mystery will be solved in Winds rather than the last book. If Jon's parentage could be put to rest, that would be a plus.

I agree 99% that R+L=J, but it becomes so obvious when see it and its so cliche that i see ways why its not true at this point

[Faera]

33 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

No, it's not a fact, but I think there are enough clues pointing to RLJ[...] Hopefully, the mystery will be solved in Winds rather than the last book. If Jon's parentage could be put to rest, that would be a plus.

You can say that again. Either way it would be nice to be put out of our misery. It's been literal decades.

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I know when my "oh, shit" moment happened. 

Heh, me too. The "where were you [in the book] when R+L=J first occurred to you?" moment I can vividly remember even now years later, weirdly enough. Maybe because it just struck me so suddenly that I gasped? IDK...

[divica]

9 minutes ago, Faera said:

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Ned wanted to keep Jon with him for himself regardless of how much more practical sending him to the Neck was. Howland might have been perfectly willing to foster Jon but Ned just wanted to keep him for love's sake.

I think ned would feel it is his responsability to raise jon. Wether it was wise or not.

He promised to keep him safe (at the very least) so how would he feel if he had an accident while he was at the neck? Or got sick and died? Or was attacked by someone? I can t imagine ned wanting jon to be away from him.

9 minutes ago, Faera said:

Well, I'm not one of them for the reasons stated, so... 

Again, even if "most" think Jon is TPtwP or whatever, it has no bearing on RLJ for me so I don't really care.

People don t even agree if TPtwP and AA are the same person or several people... 

13 minutes ago, Faera said:

I can understand why Ned chose not to tell Jon then and might have never intended to tell him. Whether it was right or not can be debated. Personally, I can see why he would choose not to tell the boy he has loved and raised as his son that none of that was true. It's an emotionally challenging thing as it is, runs the risk of the secret getting out and various other things. He just didn't want to open that old would for himself or that can of worms with Jon. Perhaps with was cowardly but I get it. To him, the lie felt safer and easy. 

I will never understand why he didn t tell jon some version of the thruth. We are pretty much told several times that jon is traumatized with being  a bastard and suffers from not knowing anything about his mother. Then letting jon commit himself to the NW when he has familly he doesn t know about and rights nobody told him is simply cruel. If jon finds out the thruth I don t think he will ever forgive Ned.

[IronBars]

19 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think you are thinking of this, from Clash, Bran IV:

Meera does remind Bran of Arya. But this not based on looks. It is based on behavior.

 

17 minutes ago, Faera said:

.(EDIT: @OtherFromAnotherMother got to it before me but...) the closest we ever get to a Meera-Arya comparison as far as I can recall is this bit:

He never says she looks like Arya, only that they share what I'd call similar "tomboyish" qualities.

Don't get me wrong, I think thematically there definitely is an echo between characters like Lyanna-Meera-Arya but at no point are we led to believe that Meera looks like anything other than a typical denizen of the Crannogs.

Yes that is most likely it but there is definetly a parallel there.

 

19 minutes ago, Faera said:

Let me phrase it better. Ned probably didn't want to run the risk of what he did ever getting out because of the more immediate risk it might pose to Jon as well as the rest of the family. He just wanted to let sleeping dogs lie even if it meant living with that lie forever.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Ned wanted to keep Jon with him for himself regardless of how much more practical sending him to the Neck was. Howland might have been perfectly willing to foster Jon but Ned just wanted to keep him for love's sake.(

That is not a reason to deny telling jon before he made a life altering decision though, 

I know this is not the same now - but Ned had no issue revealing to robert that his children were illegiimet, knowing the pain it would cause robert, knowing roberts reaction, knowing it would result in civil war, while tywin lannister might of abhorred what cersei and jamie did no way would he allow robert just kill them.

So since Ned had no problem doing that i dont see why he wouldnt tell jon hes true parentage beford altering his life forever, 

24 minutes ago, Faera said:

 

Again, even if "most" think Jon is TPtwP or whatever, it has no bearing on RLJ for me so I don't really care.

Well, if it feels like a deal breaker for you then that's fine. It really doesn't feel like that much of an issue to me so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

I can understand why Ned chose not to tell Jon then and might have never intended to tell him. Whether it was right or not can be debated. Personally, I can see why he would choose not to tell the boy he has loved and raised as his son that none of that was true. It's an emotionally challenging thing as it is, runs the risk of the secret getting out and various other things. He just didn't want to open that old would for himself or that can of worms with Jon. Perhaps with was cowardly but I get it. To him, the lie felt safer and easy. 

Yes i understand your point about him being TPWWP/AA having no relevence to R+L=J, but some think rhaegar was trying to fulfill the prohesy so there is a link there and that eventually is a cliche

I dont think its a deal breaker, but it is one of those crux moments in jons life, where you would imagine he would need to know who he truly is to make that decision.

I see why you can understand why ned didnt tell him, but you forget life a a bastard was not easy, bastards seemed to be quiet reviled, so its not like he spared him hardship, his life was far from idylic, he chose the NW because felt had no other place in the world remember

[Faera]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

I think ned would feel it is his responsability to raise jon. Wether it was wise or not.

He promised to keep him safe (at the very least) so how would he feel if he had an accident while he was at the neck? Or got sick and died? Or was attacked by someone? I can t imagine ned wanting jon to be away from him.

I absolutely agree. There is too much emotions riding on it for Ned to want that kid out of his sight.

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People don t even agree if TPtwP and AA are the same person or several people... 

 

Exactly, and I'm one of them. There is so much conflation of the myths and legends that unless we have someone tell it plain, I just can't say I'm sure either way. Even if they are supposed to be part of the same prophecy, I don't think any one person could ever fulfill it. Heck, I actually find the theory that Rhaegar actually was supposed to be TPtwP that the Ghost of High Heart was referring to and the biggest joke is that he died before the series even started! Gives a whole other meaning to Cersei's "the wrong man came back from the Trident" moment.

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If jon finds out the thruth I don t think he will ever forgive Ned.

 

See, I personally disagree. Perhaps if sullen, fourteen-year-old Jon had found out before going to the Watch he might have held that gripe against Ned for lying. Now, I don't see it. While the memories of being called bastard by Robb that one time hurt his feelings and the cold looks from Catelyn are painful, he has learned to wear bastardy like armour. If he finds out now, there's no point in holding a grudge against the long dead Ned. It is clear that Ned's reasons were out of love -- love for his sister and love for Jon. It was to protect them and Ned paid a price for that lie. Ultimately, I think it will reinforce to Jon just how much of a true father Ned was to him.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

30 minutes ago, divica said:

People don t even agree if TPtwP and AA are the same person or several people... 

Pretty sure we're supposed to be listening to Marwyn on this.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

No, it's not a fact, but I think there are enough clues pointing to RLJ. I know when my "oh, shit" moment happened. Hopefully, the mystery will be solved in Winds rather than the last book. If Jon's parentage could be put to rest, that would be a plus.

Nothing in this book is fact. It's all fiction, science fiction, fantasy even! We shouldn't be looking for "facts" and putting them through the scientific method, or spit balling the wildest possibilities, simply because they're possible. We should be trying to hear what the storyteller is telling us. Although, there is certainly a place for thinking outside the box, and for having fun with the pots on the high shelf. 

[Faera]

4 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Pretty sure we're supposed to be listening to Marwyn on this.

Remind me, what did Mawyn say? I really can't remember... 

26 minutes ago, IronBars said:

I see why you can understand why ned didnt tell him, but you forget life a a bastard was not easy, bastards seemed to be quiet reviled, so its not like he spared him hardship, his life was far from idylic, he chose the NW because felt had no other place in the world remember

I didn't forget, I just don't see how Ned telling Jon would have altered his circumstances all that much.

 

[divica]

8 minutes ago, Faera said:

See, I personally disagree. Perhaps if sullen, fourteen-year-old Jon had found out before going to the Watch he might have held that gripe against Ned for lying. Now, I don't see it. While the memories of being called bastard by Robb that one time hurt his feelings and the cold looks from Catelyn are painful, he has learned to wear bastardy like armour. If he finds out now, there's no point in holding a grudge against the long dead Ned. It is clear that Ned's reasons were out of love -- love for his sister and love for Jon. It was to protect them and Ned paid a price for that lie. Ultimately, I think it will reinforce to Jon just how much of a true father Ned was to him.

A true father doesn t send his son to the Wall without telling him the truth so that he could know all his options. Robert killed jon's father and didn t punish tywin for kiling his baby siblings. He has a aunt and uncle out there... Even if jon could get over being treated as ned's bastard his intire life (which 14 year old jon would find very dificult) Ned robbed him of too many things. And I don t think we can say it was out of love.

It was basically fear of jon wanting revenge against robert or that he would embrace his targ side and everybody finding out about his lie. We don t know about Ned's promises but if ned told jon the truth it was possible that Ned would end up as an enemy of his one true love (aka robert). Or do you think that jon wouldn t do anything after finding what happened to his familly?