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Ygrain

R+L=J v.165

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On 12/13/2017 at 0:44 PM, Tygett Lannister said:

When you need 165. threads and you still don't convince people into believing the most obvious theory there is, because it is like a ASoIaF tutorial, beginners guide.

Or the last thread was simply too full thus had to be closed and start anew.

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10 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I kinda took Barbery's statement about Brandon to infer that he had been with her multiple times, and wasn't sleeping with every virgin he could find,

 

Why do you think that, though? Because Barbrey says:

Quote

Brandon was never shy about taking what he wanted. ...

I still remember the look of my maiden's blood on his cock the night he claimed me. I think Brandon liked the sight as well. A bloody sword is a beautiful thing.

So are you saying he only liked the sight of Barbrey's maiden blood, but nobody else's? Is that a thing with guys when they want to marry a girl (as you claim) but take their virginity before they're even betrothed? Then they stare admiringly at the blood on their cock? Sorry to be crude, but this is exactly what Barbrey is describing, and unless Brandon had a thing for conquering maidens, it makes no sense that he would enjoy the sight of Barbrey's blood if he truly loved her, and even if he didn't it's still a douchey thing to do.

I know you don't want Brandon to be a player, but that is a direct quote from the woman who loved him and is still bitter about losing him all these years later. We don't know if he loved Barbrey - maybe he did, but not enough to defy his father and marry her. And as Barbrey says (in Brandon's own words), Brandon liked to get blood on his sword.

You're disregarding or trying to explain away all the things George is telling us about Brandon (and there are surprisingly few details, so the ones we get should at least give us an outline of his character) because you don't want to believe he'd be such a douchebag to his younger brother by taking the girl he likes. But even that isn't confirmed - we don't know if Ned had a crush on her, because he never thinks about her once. And if he did, that might not have stopped Brandon taking what he wanted, because he was "never shy" about it, unlike Ned the shy wolf.

But there are already plenty of Ashara threads.

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10 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

Please don't turn this into another Rhaegar/Ashara thread.

Oh im sorry, is 165 threads at 400 comments each on R+L=J not enough to be able to pop in with the occasional thought that plays off R+L=J being known. My bad hahaha back to your 165 thread 400 comment debate :) 

Edit- Sorry Ran, hard to randomly talk to you else wise :) 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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7 hours ago, Ran said:

FWIW, I firmly believe Rhaegar had the right to command the Kingsguard, and that they followed his orders because that was within the scope of their vows.

I'd agree that they felt it was within the scope of their vows - or perhaps also/instead: within the scope of what they wanted to do, had they sworn their vows or not - but there is no indication within the texts I know that a royal prince has the authority to issue orders to the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, especially not insofar as assignments and the like are concerned. Rhaegar certainly had the authority to command Whent and Dayne - who, apparently, were his sworn shields or otherwise his companions. But Ser Gerold Hightower is different.

I mean, you do know more texts than I do, but nothing in the texts we know indicate that, say, Aenys, Maegor, Jaehaerys, Viserys, etc. could command the Kingsguard in matters of the king's security (or matters of state) while they were still just princes. And there are royal princes - like Daemon Targaryen - who apparently never even enjoyed Kingsguard protection. Would such people be able to command the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? Could even Cersei do that while she was still just the queen consort while Robert was still alive? Did Rhaenyra have the authority to boss around Ser Criston Cole after they had their little fallout? She was the Princess of Dragonstone, too. Under certain circumstances, perhaps, but it doesn't look as if members of the royal family were routinely involved in matters concerning the safety of the king - or even the government of the Realm.

But the crux of my point is, again, that Gerold Hightower didn't have to obey Rhaegar if he didn't wanted to. He could have easily have made up an order of Aerys II commanding him to return to KL with Rhaegar - even if no such order existed. Rhaegar has no way of double-checking that. And one assumes that Hightower would have found a way to return to KL if that had been his wish. The fact that he didn't indicates he was able to come to terms with the fact that he had to guard a woman in the middle of nowhere instead of fighting with his king and prince in the war.

And that might indicate a change in the Ser Gerold Hightower we meet in Jaime's memories - and the one from Ned's dream - to a Gerold Hightower who had pretty much no issue with Rhaegar deposing Aerys, or serving Rhaegar (if possible) instead of Aerys.

And that would actually be a better men. If those men were mostly good men (and I don't think Jonothor Darry was that great a guy, and neither Prince Lewyn with his paramour) then especially a man like Hightower should have been disgusted by Aerys' behavior and state of mind. The man had joined the Kingsguard under Aegon V and Ser Duncan the Tall.

A mental shift from Aerys to Rhaegar does make some sense there. And as you pointed out already - Hightower and Darry's advice to young Jaime may have been made because his conflicting emotions - emotions they may have felt themselves - might have been easily readable on his face. And they may have done their best to prevent Jaime from snapping, causing harm to himself and others.

And it is pretty obvious that Jaime killed Aerys in the end because he could and because he wanted to. Not to save anyone. He had killed Rossart already, and Tywin's men were already in the castle. Jaime could have distracted Aerys (say, by telling him the blood on his blade and armor was indeed Tywin's, not Rossart's). He could have arrested him. He could have knocked him out. He could have injured him. But he chose to kill him.

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And what do you propose that happened? That the guy who had authority to give orders, left without giving any orders and the KG stayed behind just because?

For Dayne and Whent we can easily assume that they may have volunteered for the task, assuming they understood why Lyanna was so important for Rhaegar. For all we know they could also have been privy to prophecy stuff and believed in it just as much as Rhaegar did. After all, they presumably were with him the entire time. 

With Hightower it is different, but even he could have volunteered if he found Rhaegar's reasoning convincing. Or he may have been willing to fulfill Rhaegar's request after the man asked him. I mean, not everything needs to be phrased as an order.

But then - the really important question here is why the hell Lyanna couldn't accompany Rhaegar? She should have still been able to travel at that point in her pregnancy, and a tower in the middle of nowhere isn't the place for a pregnant woman, anyway.

Lyanna could have been a great help in reaching an understanding with the rebels, especially Ned. With Lyanna's help Rhaegar could have made a separate peace with Ned, driving a wedge between the leaders of the rebellion.

The idea that Lyanna would have been in danger in KL doesn't make a lot of sense. If she was Rhaegar's wife at that point she would have been as safe as one could possibly be. And if Rhaegar felt she might be in danger he could have sent her directly to Harrenhal, Maidenpool, Starfall, or wherever else he had friends he could trust.

People usually also forget that Rhaegar apparently rode to war to kill Lyanna's brother and (former) betrothed. I'm not sure she really liked that, or House Targaryen as such, after Aerys executed her father and brother, and intended to kill her other brother(s), too. The idea that she meekly approved of Rhaegar's decision to save the ass of the madman who was destroying her family isn't very likely. She may have actually wanted Rhaegar to join the rebels. Try to make a deal with Ned and Robert and unite to put down Aerys. This is Lyanna Stark we are talking about, a dialed-up version of Arya Stark. She would not take shit from anyone, especially not the man she loved.

In that sense, the priority of the knights at the tower might not have been to protect Lyanna from enemies but also, you know, to protect her from herself and her own foolish ideas. Love doesn't mean you are on the same page in matters of state or politics.

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

First you argue that Rhaegar didn't have the authority to give orders, and when I prove you wrong, you start claiming that we don't know if he gave any order. I really don't feel like continuing the discussion.

I just pointed out that there is no textual evidence that Rhaegar ever gave an order to the knights at the tower. Don't sulk just because I told you what George actually said.

And this quote doesn't explain anything - it doesn't explain as to why Rhaegar as a prince would have been able to give orders to the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard when other princes and members of the royal family can't do that. 

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It seems most plausible to me that Rhaegar compelled Hightower to stay at the Tower of Joy. Hightower's job was likely to bring Rhaegar back to KL so he could command the royal forces. I suspect Rhaegar conditioned his return to KL on Hightower staying with Arthur and Oswell.

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31 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It seems most plausible to me that Rhaegar compelled Hightower to stay at the Tower of Joy. Hightower's job was likely to bring Rhaegar back to KL so he could command the royal forces. I suspect Rhaegar conditioned his return to KL on Hightower staying with Arthur and Oswell.

It's possible. But maybe Gerold Hightower has the same thoughts that Barristan does. We have Arys Oakheart who was relieved to be sent away from Joffrey and we know how Jaime feels about the vows. I find it difficult to believe that Hightower wouldn't question his own vows and what he is doing exactly as Aerys continues on his downward spiral, not when we have 3 knights of the Kingsguard giving us their thoughts on these very things. 

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

It seems most plausible to me that Rhaegar compelled Hightower to stay at the Tower of Joy. Hightower's job was likely to bring Rhaegar back to KL so he could command the royal forces. I suspect Rhaegar conditioned his return to KL on Hightower staying with Arthur and Oswell.

Not sure why Rhaegar should have done that kind of thing. What's the point of compelling Hightower to stay at that tower? What about the duty of the Heir Apparent and Prince of Dragonstone to himself, his royal parents, his own children and wife, the name of House Targaryen, and the Realm he hopes to inherit and rule one day? Can you see Rhaegar pull an Aerys here, telling something along the lines of:

'Let him [Robert] be the king of blood and bones. Let him crush my father, rape my mother, kill my wife and children. Let him slaughter my friends and allies, the men and women believing that Prince Rhaegar will come to save them. Let him destroy the city my ancestors built, let him take the throne the Conqueror built. I have my Lyanna, worthy more than all the thrones and crowns of this world, and the self-righteousness that only comes with true love. If you don't stay here, I'll not move an inch, awaiting the inevitable with the stoicism of the true philosopher.'

I can't. And what would Hightower's reaction be to such a ridiculous demand? 

'Boy, I'm not playing games with you. I'm here on your royal father's orders, who commanded me to fetch you back. And I'll do that, or die in the attempt. Are you willing to face me? I've killed better men than you, and faced other descendants of Aegon the Draogn in battle. If not, then you will come with me.'

or

'You can come or stay, it is nothing to me. I've done my duty and fulfilled your father's command. You know now that you are summoned to court. If you don't come, look for a better hiding place next time. Because the only proper punishment for desertion and treason is death. The king will learn how you addressed his messenger. His wrath will follow you wherever you go. I'll return to King's Landing and crush the traitor Robert like I crushed Maelys Blackfyre.'

Rhaegar's own kingdom and family was in danger here. Rhaegar and Lyanna, too, presumably, because there certainly would be no place for them in Robert Baratheon's kingdom. Only agreeing to do the right thing if ridiculous conditions were met would make one of the worst people in the series. Especially in light of the fact that many people would be laying the blame for this rebellion squarely at the feet of the love-sick Prince Rhaegar. Just as Prince Duncan was the one to blame for the last Baratheon rebellion.

That is why I brought up Dunk in one of the last posts. What do we think our friend Dunk is going to think when he learns that Egg's eldest son thinking with his heart or cock - or both - has led to a chain of events that is now ending in Dunk - Dunk, of all people! - to face Lyonel Baratheon in a trial-by-combat? He may understand that his namesake is in love. But the idea that he is looking forward to fight (and possibly) kill who once helped to save his very life is very unlikely.

And many people - not just the Dornish - are likely to have not the slightest understanding for the entire Lyanna affair. None at all.

But as I laid out repeatedly:

Rhaegar effectively forcing Hightower to do something he didn't want to do - or staying where he didn't want to be - isn't exactly the kind of thing that could work over a period of months. Why shouldn't Hightower be able to lie through his teeth, pretend to agree to Rhaegar's demands, only to leave the tower a few days or a week after Rhaegar himself left?

If I were Hightower and didn't want to stay at the tower that's what I would have done. And the best way to get out of this kind of contradictory motivation for a character is to make his decision to stay there not something he was - more or less - forced to do against his wishes or better judgment.

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's possible. But maybe Gerold Hightower has the same thoughts that Barristan does. We have Arys Oakheart who was relieved to be sent away from Joffrey and we know how Jaime feels about the vows. I find it difficult to believe that Hightower wouldn't question his own vows and what he is doing exactly as Aerys continues on his downward spiral, not when we have 3 knights of the Kingsguard giving us their thoughts on these very things. 

It is not unlikely at all.

The whole point of this gradual reveal of the past, piece by piece, until we have - presumably - completed the entire puzzle in the Epilogue of the last book, is to have the potential for twists and turns not only in the present plot but also in the uncovering of the past.

That's why we still have no clue about the nature and motivation of the Others, or any idea how the Long Night ended and the War for the Dawn was won.

Ser Gerold Hightower isn't necessary the most important background character of the series. But he isn't completely irrelevant, either.

And the question why he chose to stay at that tower is something that is not only interesting but also not unimportant for the overall plot.

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6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I just pointed out that there is no textual evidence that Rhaegar ever gave an order to the knights at the tower.

Well, there is this, from the app:

At Harrenhal he first beheld Lyanna Stark. He brought tears to her eyes with his singing, before crowning her his queen of love and beauty before his wife and half the realm. Sometime later, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna with the aid of Ser Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent. When word of Lyanna's abduction reached Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell stormed into the Red Keep, challenging Rhaegar to face him; Aerys's murderous response led directly to Robert's Rebellion.

Lord Robert, Lyanna's betrothed, was consumed by the need to avenge himself on Rhaegar, but the prince could not be found for the first months of the war. Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south. (A World of Ice and Fire, Rhaegar Targaryen)

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ser Gerold Hightower isn't necessary the most important background character of the series. But he isn't completely irrelevant, either.

No, he's not the most important, but I think what Leyton Hightower is up to in his tower might make even him more relevant. 

These men who were parked at the ToJ all have rather significant last names. 

 

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11 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

It's possible. But maybe Gerold Hightower has the same thoughts that Barristan does. We have Arys Oakheart who was relieved to be sent away from Joffrey and we know how Jaime feels about the vows. I find it difficult to believe that Hightower wouldn't question his own vows and what he is doing exactly as Aerys continues on his downward spiral, not when we have 3 knights of the Kingsguard giving us their thoughts on these very things. 

Every KG we have any familiarity with should warn us against assuming that KG are always certain about how to best observe their vows. But if Hightower's lines in Ned's dream bear any resemblance to his actual stances, he might have gone to the grave without ever being convinced to restrict Aerys or support Rhaegar taking over actual ruling, no matter how much he may or may not have questioned his vows, or Aerys's state.

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not sure why Rhaegar should have done that kind of thing. What's the point of compelling Hightower to stay at that tower? What about the duty of the Heir Apparent and Prince of Dragonstone to himself, his royal parents, his own children and wife, the name of House Targaryen, and the Realm he hopes to inherit and rule one day? Can you see Rhaegar pull an Aerys here, telling something along the lines of:

'Let him [Robert] be the king of blood and bones. Let him crush my father, rape my mother, kill my wife and children. Let him slaughter my friends and allies, the men and women believing that Prince Rhaegar will come to save them. Let him destroy the city my ancestors built, let him take the throne the Conqueror built. I have my Lyanna, worthy more than all the thrones and crowns of this world, and the self-righteousness that only comes with true love. If you don't stay here, I'll not move an inch, awaiting the inevitable with the stoicism of the true philosopher.'

I can't. And what would Hightower's reaction be to such a ridiculous demand? 

'Boy, I'm not playing games with you. I'm here on your royal father's orders, who commanded me to fetch you back. And I'll do that, or die in the attempt. Are you willing to face me? I've killed better men than you, and faced other descendants of Aegon the Draogn in battle. If not, then you will come with me.'

or

'You can come or stay, it is nothing to me. I've done my duty and fulfilled your father's command. You know now that you are summoned to court. If you don't come, look for a better hiding place next time. Because the only proper punishment for desertion and treason is death. The king will learn how you addressed his messenger. His wrath will follow you wherever you go. I'll return to King's Landing and crush the traitor Robert like I crushed Maelys Blackfyre.'

Rhaegar's own kingdom and family was in danger here. Rhaegar and Lyanna, too, presumably, because there certainly would be no place for them in Robert Baratheon's kingdom. Only agreeing to do the right thing if ridiculous conditions were met would make one of the worst people in the series. Especially in light of the fact that many people would be laying the blame for this rebellion squarely at the feet of the love-sick Prince Rhaegar. Just as Prince Duncan was the one to blame for the last Baratheon rebellion.

That is why I brought up Dunk in one of the last posts. What do we think our friend Dunk is going to think when he learns that Egg's eldest son thinking with his heart or cock - or both - has led to a chain of events that is now ending in Dunk - Dunk, of all people! - to face Lyonel Baratheon in a trial-by-combat? He may understand that his namesake is in love. But the idea that he is looking forward to fight (and possibly) kill who once helped to save his very life is very unlikely.

And many people - not just the Dornish - are likely to have not the slightest understanding for the entire Lyanna affair. None at all.

But as I laid out repeatedly:

Rhaegar effectively forcing Hightower to do something he didn't want to do - or staying where he didn't want to be - isn't exactly the kind of thing that could work over a period of months. Why shouldn't Hightower be able to lie through his teeth, pretend to agree to Rhaegar's demands, only to leave the tower a few days or a week after Rhaegar himself left?

If I were Hightower and didn't want to stay at the tower that's what I would have done. And the best way to get out of this kind of contradictory motivation for a character is to make his decision to stay there not something he was - more or less - forced to do against his wishes or better judgment.

It is the simplest explanation. Rhaegar would know he had to return at that point, but could not risk Hightower returning to spill any beans he didn't want spilled yet. The app says that Hightower was dispatched to recall Rhaegar to his duties, so as far as we know that was his primary command from Aerys, though there could have been more.

Perhaps Rhaegar was able to convince Hightower that his return to KL would fulfill Aerys's command to him, and that his new command was to remain at the TOJ.

Perhaps Hightower wasn't willing to accept such a command, and Rhaegar had to give him an ultimatum that Hightower could either return to KL empty handed, and risk the wrath of Aerys, or Hightower could stay here while Rhaegar returns to KL.

I see no reason why he would have wanted to stay at the TOJ, or been convinced to see things how Dayne and Whent might have. And no matter how bad Hightower is, he has little chance of besting Dayne and Whent, who have likely accepted Rhaegar's orders. But I think he ultimately was compelled to give his word to remain there, and that he kept it, regardless of what he could have done.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd agree that they felt it was within the scope of their vows - or perhaps also/instead: within the scope of what they wanted to do, had they sworn their vows or not - but there is no indication within the texts I know that a royal prince has the authority to issue orders to the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, especially not insofar as assignments and the like are concerned. Rhaegar certainly had the authority to command Whent and Dayne - who, apparently, were his sworn shields or otherwise his companions. But Ser Gerold Hightower is different.

I mean, you do know more texts than I do, but nothing in the texts we know indicate that, say, Aenys, Maegor, Jaehaerys, Viserys, etc. could command the Kingsguard in matters of the king's security (or matters of state) while they were still just princes. And there are royal princes - like Daemon Targaryen - who apparently never even enjoyed Kingsguard protection. Would such people be able to command the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard? Could even Cersei do that while she was still just the queen consort while Robert was still alive? Did Rhaenyra have the authority to boss around Ser Criston Cole after they had their little fallout? She was the Princess of Dragonstone, too. Under certain circumstances, perhaps, but it doesn't look as if members of the royal family were routinely involved in matters concerning the safety of the king - or even the government of the Realm.

But the crux of my point is, again, that Gerold Hightower didn't have to obey Rhaegar if he didn't wanted to. He could have easily have made up an order of Aerys II commanding him to return to KL with Rhaegar - even if no such order existed. Rhaegar has no way of double-checking that. And one assumes that Hightower would have found a way to return to KL if that had been his wish. The fact that he didn't indicates he was able to come to terms with the fact that he had to guard a woman in the middle of nowhere instead of fighting with his king and prince in the war.

And that might indicate a change in the Ser Gerold Hightower we meet in Jaime's memories - and the one from Ned's dream - to a Gerold Hightower who had pretty much no issue with Rhaegar deposing Aerys, or serving Rhaegar (if possible) instead of Aerys.

And that would actually be a better men. If those men were mostly good men (and I don't think Jonothor Darry was that great a guy, and neither Prince Lewyn with his paramour) then especially a man like Hightower should have been disgusted by Aerys' behavior and state of mind. The man had joined the Kingsguard under Aegon V and Ser Duncan the Tall.

A mental shift from Aerys to Rhaegar does make some sense there. And as you pointed out already - Hightower and Darry's advice to young Jaime may have been made because his conflicting emotions - emotions they may have felt themselves - might have been easily readable on his face. And they may have done their best to prevent Jaime from snapping, causing harm to himself and others.

And it is pretty obvious that Jaime killed Aerys in the end because he could and because he wanted to. Not to save anyone. He had killed Rossart already, and Tywin's men were already in the castle. Jaime could have distracted Aerys (say, by telling him the blood on his blade and armor was indeed Tywin's, not Rossart's). He could have arrested him. He could have knocked him out. He could have injured him. But he chose to kill him.

For Dayne and Whent we can easily assume that they may have volunteered for the task, assuming they understood why Lyanna was so important for Rhaegar. For all we know they could also have been privy to prophecy stuff and believed in it just as much as Rhaegar did. After all, they presumably were with him the entire time. 

With Hightower it is different, but even he could have volunteered if he found Rhaegar's reasoning convincing. Or he may have been willing to fulfill Rhaegar's request after the man asked him. I mean, not everything needs to be phrased as an order.

But then - the really important question here is why the hell Lyanna couldn't accompany Rhaegar? She should have still been able to travel at that point in her pregnancy, and a tower in the middle of nowhere isn't the place for a pregnant woman, anyway.

Lyanna could have been a great help in reaching an understanding with the rebels, especially Ned. With Lyanna's help Rhaegar could have made a separate peace with Ned, driving a wedge between the leaders of the rebellion.

The idea that Lyanna would have been in danger in KL doesn't make a lot of sense. If she was Rhaegar's wife at that point she would have been as safe as one could possibly be. And if Rhaegar felt she might be in danger he could have sent her directly to Harrenhal, Maidenpool, Starfall, or wherever else he had friends he could trust.

People usually also forget that Rhaegar apparently rode to war to kill Lyanna's brother and (former) betrothed. I'm not sure she really liked that, or House Targaryen as such, after Aerys executed her father and brother, and intended to kill her other brother(s), too. The idea that she meekly approved of Rhaegar's decision to save the ass of the madman who was destroying her family isn't very likely. She may have actually wanted Rhaegar to join the rebels. Try to make a deal with Ned and Robert and unite to put down Aerys. This is Lyanna Stark we are talking about, a dialed-up version of Arya Stark. She would not take shit from anyone, especially not the man she loved.

In that sense, the priority of the knights at the tower might not have been to protect Lyanna from enemies but also, you know, to protect her from herself and her own foolish ideas. Love doesn't mean you are on the same page in matters of state or politics.

I just pointed out that there is no textual evidence that Rhaegar ever gave an order to the knights at the tower. Don't sulk just because I told you what George actually said.

And this quote doesn't explain anything - it doesn't explain as to why Rhaegar as a prince would have been able to give orders to the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard when other princes and members of the royal family can't do that.

I'm lost, so you're arguing that they were at the TOJ under their own volition just because?

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Quote

Don't sulk just because I told you what George actually said.]

Don't insult other members of the forum. You've been around long enough.

Quote

And this quote doesn't explain anything - it doesn't explain as to why Rhaegar as a prince would have been able to give orders to the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard when other princes and members of the royal family can't do that.

This line:

Quote

"Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards."

Thus the King can extend the right to others to command the Kingsguard. Aegon Targaryen was able to command his sworn shield to help in taking Merry Meg, as one obvious example. Another is in "The Hedge Knight", where Maekar was capable of commanding the Kingsguard to join his son's part in the trial of seven. George indicates that Rhaegar was capable of giving a command they were bound to follow. 

Ergo, Rhaegar had the right to command them, from Aerys. Aerys could overrule Rhaegar, certainly, or withdraw this... but when they are at the tower of joy, Aerys is not there, and Rhaegar is. Simple.

Edited by Ran

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3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

 But if Hightower's lines in Ned's dream bear any resemblance to his actual stances, he might have gone to the grave without ever being convinced to restrict Aerys or support Rhaegar taking over actual ruling, no matter how much he may or may not have questioned his vows, or Aerys's state.

Also, all of Hightower's reactions - in dream as well as "RL" - show only unwavering loyalty without a shade of doubt or a hint at something else going behind the responses. Compared with Arthur Dayne's sadness, expressed twice in those couple of lines he gets in people's dreams, it is safe to assume that Dayne's attitude differed from Hightower's: "“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly." Yet, both in the ToJ dream as well as Jaime's dream on the weirwood stump, he acts in unity with the other KG in perceiving his duty, as well as Jaime's. 

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12 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

That's right, in The Hedge Knight both Maekar & Baelor were just princes, and they both commanded the Kingsguard at different points in the story. I'd almost forgotten about that.

And Cersei orders the KG about left and right.

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10 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

there is this, from the app

In the last edition of the thread, it was established that the app contains information that is not necessarily true, and that the app's creator believed to be incorrect in at least one case.  

(How many more such cases there may be, we do not know.)

So that was an interesting discovery.  Now, if we look at at that app passage...

10 hours ago, Shmedricko said:

Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south.

This seems quite a curious bit.  If we believe it, it means that Aerys had a very good idea where Lyanna was at this time: the TOJ.

So he obviously could have taken her hostage if he wanted to.

Yet we know from canon that Aerys somehow did not take Lyanna hostage. He did not use Lyanna as leverage against the leaders of the Rebellion, Robert and Ned, who threatened his rule and his family's power and his life, and who were both intensely invested in Lyanna's safety.

Well, that seems extraordinary, doesn't it?

Granted, he was the Mad King, but he wasn't so mad that he failed to leverage Elia at the very same time, and for the very same reason (to improve his odds of victory in the Rebellion).  

From ASOS we have:

Quote

The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. 

So how do we explain this remarkable mental failure on Aerys' part?  I'm really not sure...

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@JNR

Had he been in his right mind he would have taken the Starks hostage instead of murdering them,  no? What a remarkable mental failure that was!

Attempting to apply rational thought to Aerys seems a fool’s errand to me.

Edited by Ran

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3 minutes ago, Ran said:

@JNR

Had he been in his right mind he would have taken the Starks hostage instead of murdering them,  no? What a remarkable mental failure that was!

Attempting to apply rational thought to Aerys seems a fool’s errand to me.

Not to mention that the app says Rhaegar could not be found in the first months of the war, without clarifying whether this just refers to the rebels looking for him or the royals as well. Nor does it indicate that the rumors about the TOJ were known only to the royals, or that Aerys had any special knowledge of the TOJ, that it is a given that he could just track them down and take Lyanna hostage. Obviously Hightower eventually found the place, and perhaps it was even part of his charge to bring her back to KL. But it isn't clear how Hightower learned the location of the TOJ, or how long between Hightower being dispatched and him arriving at the TOJ.

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Indeed. We just know he's present in KL when the Starks are burned, and is not around when Rhaegar gets back to KL. There's a pretty long span of time between these points.

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