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Ygrain

R+L=J v.165

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3 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

So it got me wondering about the final entries for Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent and Arthur Dayne and what Barristan wrote down for them and if he was told what their orders were. I would think he'd want to write something as close to the truth as he possibly can for those three, wouldn't he?

Stuff like that is pretty much the reason why I (and many other people, hopefully) believe there is an official story about why Lyanna Stark and the Kingsguard were where they were, as well as (pretty much) accurate account on why and how they died.

Robert Baratheon would have wanted to know what happened to his Lyanna, just as he (and many other people, including the families of the men who died - among them as prominent a house as Hightower of Oldtown) would have wanted to know what happened to Aerys II's last three Seven.

That, in turn, means that I believe that quite a few people knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, that Lyanna died a pregnant woman, possibly even that she died in childbirth (only believing she gave birth to a stillborn rather than a living child).

If something isn't a mystery it ensures nobody is going to look for loose ends.

Just because the author keeps a lot of things from us readers doesn't mean the people in Westeros are equally ignorant. Lyanna and Rhaegar are shrouded in mystery to the degree they are to prevent the reader to figure out the Jon Snow thing - and pretty much anybody would have done that very early on if the author had revealed Lyanna had been pregnant or even married.

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27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That, in turn, means that I believe that quite a few people knew that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, that Lyanna died a pregnant woman, possibly even that she died in childbirth (only believing she gave birth to a stillborn rather than a living child).

I think this is one of the things where for me, Lyanna remaining at the tower after Rhaegar went back to King's Landing doesn't really hold water for me personally. 

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Just because the author keeps a lot of things from us readers doesn't mean the people in Westeros are equally ignorant.

Well, yeah. Characters are always going to know a lot more than the reader does and will reveal what they know when they are good and ready.

That Jaime chapter is just interesting because while Arthur is on his mind for a lot of it, it's Barristan's entry he reads. So he essentially skips the entry that was dedicated Arthur which would be located between the Barristan and Jaime page.

I'm just trying to figure out who knows what and if these people will eventually connect the dots to Jon. I think Barristan is someone who knows a hell of a lot more than he is letting on. I think Varys may have connected the dots to Jon already. I think Leyton Hightower knows a lot of things too. But we'll see with him.

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On 6/10/2018 at 4:33 AM, Shmedricko said:

That makes it two times now where Gilly has knelt before Jon:

Her breath frosted the air in small nervous puffs. "They say the king gives justice and protects the weak." She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. "M'lord, I beg you—" (Jon III, ACOK)

I wonder if there will be a third...

When the count was done, Jon found himself surrounded. Some clapped him on the back, whilst others bent the knee to him as if he were a lord in truth. (Jon XII, ASOS 78)

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On 6/11/2018 at 4:46 PM, Widow's Watch said:

I think this is one of the things where for me, Lyanna remaining at the tower after Rhaegar went back to King's Landing doesn't really hold water for me personally. 

Oh, I think this could make perfect sense ... if true love soured, and Lyanna had sobered up, realizing that helping/allowing her dragon prince to war against her family and former betrothed was ... not exactly what she wanted. Not to mention helping the madman who had murdered her brother and father to keep both his throne and his head.

Lyanna may have remained at the tower because Rhaegar wanted to keep her under lock and key, away from her family and friends to prevent her from meddling with what he intended to do to and with them.

And he may not have trusted anyone but the Kingsguard to guard her because ... you know, anybody else might have been willing to allow her to leave, send a raven, or do something else.

On 6/11/2018 at 4:46 PM, Widow's Watch said:

That Jaime chapter is just interesting because while Arthur is on his mind for a lot of it, it's Barristan's entry he reads. So he essentially skips the entry that was dedicated Arthur which would be located between the Barristan and Jaime page.

That is likely a deliberate choice on George's part to keep knowledge from the reader.

But I'm not sure the White Book is one our main or most important sources on the Lyanna/Rhaegar thing. Pretty much everyone in the Realm could know about their romance and marriage - they just don't think and/or talk about that.

On 6/11/2018 at 4:46 PM, Widow's Watch said:

I'm just trying to figure out who knows what and if these people will eventually connect the dots to Jon. I think Barristan is someone who knows a hell of a lot more than he is letting on. I think Varys may have connected the dots to Jon already. I think Leyton Hightower knows a lot of things too. But we'll see with him.

Jon Snow simply isn't important enough for people to make much of a fuzz about him. I've made a case that Varys (and perhaps some other characters) may have figured out who Ned Stark's bastard might be in truth, but the fact remains that there is no proof, and there is no point in propping up some Targaryen pretender that doesn't look a Targaryen father.

While Robert lived Varys (or anybody) could have tried to create trouble for Ned by telling Robert stories about the bastard of Winterfell, but what would have been the point of that? That would have been just petty cruelty.

And since Jon got dumped at the Wall he became a political and dynastic non-entity.

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