Jump to content

R+L=J v.165


Ygrain

Recommended Posts

12 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

If we follow the wonky timeline we are provided with, Catelyn says that Brandon had left Riverrun on some errand when he heard what happened to his sister and rode to King's Landing. We don't know if he found out about her before or after the "errand."

We don't know that Rhaegar wasn't planning on taking Lyanna to Riverrun and delivering her back to her father. To me, it always seemed that Brandon's decision to ride for King's Landing made everything go sideways. 

We can only really speculate on this at this point. I tend to fall outside the whole they ran away together, got married right away and went to Dorne where they remained, then Rhaegar went to war and Lyanna remained in the tower. I completely disagree with all of this.

I really don't think it's believable that news of Brandon being arrested could have reached Riverrun before Rhaegar did.

I agree about the whole "ran away together, got married, hid in Dorne", I really don't like it either.

@Bael's Bastard: yout hypothesis could be believable if Aerys had launched a widespread hunt for Lyanna but as far as we're aware of, it never happened (unless GRRM is blatantly cheating by never having anyone mention it, even in passing, ever). So why would Rhaegar be afraid that some lord could hinder his efforts to save the young girl? Why would he think lord Tully, of all people, would do something like that? We keep coming back to the colossal moron, I'm afraid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Geddus said:

@Bael's Bastard: yout hypothesis could be believable if Aerys had launched a widespread hunt for Lyanna but as far as we're aware of, it never happened (unless GRRM is blatantly cheating by never having anyone mention it, even in passing, ever). So why would Rhaegar be afraid that some lord could hinder his efforts to save the young girl? Why would he think lord Tully, of all people, would do something like that? We keep coming back to the colossal moron, I'm afraid.

There's a lot we're not aware of now, and a lot we are aware of now that we weren't aware of for years, until it was revealed to us over the course of new releases.

We weren't aware that Rhaegar and his family lived on Dragonstone until it was revealed to us in TWOIAF. We weren't aware that Rhaegar still could not be found leading up to the Battle of the Bells until it was revealed to us in AFFC. We weren't aware that Rhaegar only returned to King's Landing from the south after the Battle of the Bells until it was revealed to us in ASOS.

Don't get me wrong, I don't fault you for not finding my hypothesis believable based the lack of mention of aspects of it. That is totally fair.

But considering all of the details we are missing about the period between Harrenhal and the abduction, especially when it comes to what Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Aerys were doing right before, during, and after the abduction, let alone what any of their motivations were, we can be certain that we are going to be made aware of things nobody has mentioned, even in passing, ever.

The houses of the Riverlands are sworn to House Tully as their lords, but also to House Targaryen as their kings. And there are a lot of houses between Harrenhal and Riverrun whose lands Rhaegar and his entourage, with Lyanna, would have had to go through.

Rhaegar could not be certain that these houses would aid him against the will of his father. And he might not have wanted to put those who would be willing in the position of having to aid him against the will of his father. So long as he kept it a small mission of himself and a handful of trusted friends and confidants, he need not put any of that to the test, or put them in difficult positions between their lord and their king, let alone on behalf of their prince and future king.

I am curious, what scenario(s) do you see Rhaegar doing what he did and you not concluding that he was a colossal moron?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole Knight of the Laughing Tree theory thing is dead in my opinion. TWoIaF killed it when it revealed that Aerys believed Jaime was the man. That this was not true would Aerys only have learned after he had returned to KL, and then the chances that Aerys had had any interest to figure out who this guy was - whom he apparently didn't saw as a threat because he had a laughing tree as a sigil (laughing about him), but because he thought it was Tywin's son defying the first order he had given to him.

Even before TWoIaF it wasn't a very good theory considering that Aerys would have to be a very, very mad guy to think some mystery knight was a main threat to his royal person.

But even if he had been obsessed with this mystery for long (which doesn't fit all that well with his changeable character, especially in his later years) chances are not good that he would have had the means to uncover the truth of the mystery knight's identity after Harrenhal - nor is the idea good that Aerys would have been afraid of a 14-year-old girl after he had uncovered his true identity.

Finally the idea that an abduction is somehow a good idea to protect Lya against Aerys is also not very convincing. The way to protect her would be to warn her family and friends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I am curious, what scenario(s) do you see Rhaegar doing what he did and you not concluding that he was a colossal moron?

I agree that there are many things we don't know about what really happened, but a realm-wide hunt for Lyanna would have been a huge thing, not a detail, someone would have mentioned it when talking about those events.

As for your question, I honestly don't know, I hope GRRM can come up with something because as of now things aren't looking good for the prince. At the moment I think the best case scenario would be Rhaegar acting out of love (even if I wouldn't like it) or obsession: he would come off either as an irresponsible asshole or a madman, but at least he woulnd't be an idiot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The whole Knight of the Laughing Tree theory thing is dead in my opinion.

Key words.

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

TWoIaF killed it when it revealed that Aerys believed Jaime was the man. That this was not true would Aerys only have learned after he had returned to KL, and then the chances that Aerys had had any interest to figure out who this guy was - whom he apparently didn't saw as a threat because he had a laughing tree as a sigil (laughing about him), but because he thought it was Tywin's son defying the first order he had given to him.

That's a truly absurd assertion in light of everything we know, acknowledging there is still so much we don't.

Aerys had chosen to attend the Harrenhal Tourney after having become convinced that Rhaegar was conspiring to depose him, and to use the Harrenhal Tourney as a ploy to do so. He might have even listened to his lickspittle small councilors Chelsted and Staunton, who had urged him to forbid the tourney, and prohibit all tourneys, but had chosen to attend after his Hand Merryweather warned him that would only serve to make him more unpopular.

Once at the tourney, we are told that, above all, Aerys was suspicious of Rhaegar, suspicious of Lord Whent, suspicious of every knight who had come to compete, and even more suspicious of those who had chosen to absent themselves, the most notable being Lord Tywin. We don't know whether or not Lord Rickard was in attendance, though he hasn't been named as having been in attendance, while all four of his children, Lord Robert, and Lord Jon have.

When Rhaegar was ultimately victorious in the final tilt, Aerys is said to have taken the deafening cheers of the crowd  for Rhaegar as a threat. Aerys's lickspittle small councilors Chelsted and Staunton, who had urged him to forbid the tourney in the first place, took that as an opportunity to inflame his existing suspicions by declaring that Rhaegar had entered the lists to curry favor with and impress the commons and the assembled lords.

And when the triumphant Rhaegar named Lyanna the QOLAB, and placed the garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, Aerys's lickspittle councilors declared it further proof of Rhaegar's perfidy, telling this king, who had spent the tourney in hysterical laughter, long silences, bouts of weeping, and sudden rages, going from mirth to melancholy in the blink of an eye, that Lyanna's crowning could only have been to win the allegiance of the Starks to Rhaegar's cause to gain the Iron Throne.

Aerys might have originally believed Jaime to have been the KOTLT, but IF Aerys found out or was told that "this traitor who will not show his face," whom Aerys had in his wroth sent Rhaegar to seek out (why, considered his suspicions of Rhaegar? who knows?), whom Aerys believed had been given warning by someone close to him, was Lyanna, whom Rhaegar had named the QOLAB, as Aerys's lickspittle small councilors filled his head with the idea that it was to help him win the Iron Throne, and win the allegiance of the Starks to his cause?

I could not disagree more with the assertion that Aerys wouldn't have had an interest or seen it as a potential threat. No, he wouldn't have feared Lyanna as a physical threat, but he could have feared the implications of those two notable matters at Harrenhal that had so upset him: the KOTLT, whom he had sent Rhaegar after, and Rhaegar's victory and crowning Lyanna the QOLAB, turning out to have suspicious connections.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Even before TWoIaF it wasn't a very good theory considering that Aerys would have to be a very, very mad guy to think some mystery knight was a main threat to his royal person.

Aerys was a very, very mad guy, and whether or not he thought the KOTLT was a main threat to his royal person, we are explicitly told how he reacted to the matter of the KOTLT. The question of whether he actually ever learned the identity of the KOTLT is a fair one. But the idea that, if he had found out, with his lickspittle small councilors filling his head with the perfidy of Rhaegar and his collaborators, that he would respond with anything short of the madness he had long descended into, 

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But even if he had been obsessed with this mystery for long (which doesn't fit all that well with his changeable character, especially in his later years) chances are not good that he would have had the means to uncover the truth of the mystery knight's identity after Harrenhal - nor is the idea good that Aerys would have been afraid of a 14-year-old girl after he had uncovered his true identity.

Those are poor arguments against the possibility that he could have found out, and that his response if he found out would be consistent with the madness, instability, and suspicion he is known to have descended into by late 281-early 282 AC. He need not have been afraid of the 14 year old girl for him, and his lickspittle councilors, to make assumptions about the implications it might have for their suspicious on Rhaegar and his plots against Aerys for the Iron Throne.

11 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Finally the idea that an abduction is somehow a good idea to protect Lya against Aerys is also not very convincing. The way to protect her would be to warn her family and friends.

Rhaegar abducted Lyanna, whatever his reasons, or intentions, or motivations, no matter how good an idea he thought it was, or how good an idea it actually was. I am not interested in convincing you. I'm just trying to hash out my own thoughts on what I think might possibly be behind the abduction.

I am not convinced that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna because he had fallen in love with her at that point, or because he believed he had to fulfill prophecy with her at that point. And I think the KOTLT matter provides both a possible explanation for Rhaegar's crowning her QOLAB, once it became known to him, and abducting her, IF it became known to the king.

An attempt to warn her family and friends might fall into the wrong hands before they can help her. And if he felt guilty for his actions causing Aerys's suspicions of him to fall on Lyanna and her family, he might have felt obligated to act himself, especially if he felt it was an urgent matter.

I make no claims that this is the only possibility. And I acknowledge that it includes aspects we don't have proof of (Aerys finding out the KOTLT's identity, Aerys issuing a command to arrest Lyanna). But, for me, this is the possibility I have come to lean towards. I don't find others I have read as of yet as convincing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Geddus said:

I agree that there are many things we don't know about what really happened, but a realm-wide hunt for Lyanna would have been a huge thing, not a detail, someone would have mentioned it when talking about those events.

As for your question, I honestly don't know, I hope GRRM can come up with something because as of now things aren't looking good for the prince. At the moment I think the best case scenario would be Rhaegar acting out of love (even if I wouldn't like it) or obsession: he would come off either as an irresponsible asshole or a madman, but at least he woulnd't be an idiot.

I think you confuse losing with being a "classical moron" and a "idiot." There are a lot of things to be said of Rhaegar, but being an idiot isn't one of them. He is a highly educated man who we know studied many varied subjects in his life and seemingly excelled at most of them. Contrasted to many of his family, going back to the conquest, he was undoubtedly one of the best educated and well-trained Targaryens we know about. His intelligence isn't really in question. 

What is in question is could he have made other choices in his life in the specific circumstances he found himself. Undoubtably, he could have. Should he have? There's the rub. For the reader, it's easy to say, he should have done something differently, but then the reader has the advantage the character does not in having the benefit of knowing the outcome.

What we readers don't know, and what the character must have known, is the specific details of the choices he made. We speculate and theorize what those details were, but we know too little of them. So, it's easy to make pronouncements about this character is a moron, or this character is just terrible fool. And every reader has the right to make these kind of superficial judgements, but I would submit that a closer reading finds a complexity that challenges one to make less sweeping judgements.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Geddus said:

I agree that there are many things we don't know about what really happened, but a realm-wide hunt for Lyanna would have been a huge thing, not a detail, someone would have mentioned it when talking about those events.

I didn't say anything about a realm-wide hunt for Lyanna. If Aerys knew or had reason to believe that Lyanna was staying at a certain place at the time, or traveling to or from a certain place at the time, he could have send commands via raven, as he did to Jon Arryn, or he could have sent a small force to those places. Rhaegar just so happens to have a loyal friend from Maidenpool (Myles) and a possibly loyal close confidant from Harrenhal (Oswell), whose lord brother may have also been sympathetic to him.

7 hours ago, Geddus said:

As for your question, I honestly don't know, I hope GRRM can come up with something because as of now things aren't looking good for the prince. At the moment I think the best case scenario would be Rhaegar acting out of love (even if I wouldn't like it) or obsession: he would come off either as an irresponsible asshole or a madman, but at least he woulnd't be an idiot.

Not sure why you think he would be an idiot in one case, but not in the others. Those seem like arbitrary distinctions. Whatever the case, Rhaegar will have his intent and motivation and expectations, and whatever Rhaegar's intent or motivation or expectations, the consequences will be what they are.

If he did it for prophecy or did it for love or did it thinking it would protect Lyanna, or did it thinking it would prevent Aerys doing something or making a demand that would lead to war, war came anyway, war destroyed both their houses, the child he thought was the PTWP was murdered, they both died, and Westeros lost many of its great leaders, commanders, and warriors just as the Long Night is about to descend on the realm.

I don't think Rhaegar was an idiot, and I don't think we will find that Rhaegar was an idiot, but I also don't expect us to receive an explanation that will cause us to go, "oh, hey, that was all worth it." I suspect Rhaegar will have done something extreme in a possibly extreme situation, that had consequences, some of which he might have been able to predict, others he might not have.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

I think you confuse losing with being a "classical moron" and a "idiot."

I don't see the difference, aren't "moron" and "idiot" synonyms? English is not my first language, so... anyway, I didn't say Rhaegar was an idiot, on the contrary everything we hear about him describes him as the complete opposite of that. That's why I'm looking for an explaination for his actions that doesn't make him appear as stupid.

28 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I didn't say anything about a realm-wide hunt for Lyanna. If Aerys knew or had reason to believe that Lyanna was staying at a certain place at the time, or traveling to or from a certain place at the time, he could have send commands via raven, as he did to Jon Arryn, or he could have sent a small force to those places.

How would Aerys know where Lyanna was? Why would anyone tell him about her whereabouts (and how) if they didn't know he was looking for her?

28 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Not sure why you think he would be an idiot in one case, but not in the others. Those seem like arbitrary distinctions.

Because being batshit insane, or doing very stupid things for love, and being smart aren't mutually exclusive. What's arbitrary about it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Bael's Bastard

The revelation about Lyanna could certainly have fueled the existing suspicions about Rhaegar and the Starks. But it would not have made Lyanna a prime target for Aerys. Lyanna was a girl, and thus a political nonentity. Aerys may have decided to burn her, too, but not before he had dealt with her father and brothers. They were the ones who counted, not the little girl.

Aerys cronies make that perfectly clear. Lyanna as a person is irrelevant, it is the message Rhaegar sends to her brothers and father that counts, not what he sends to Lyanna.

Considering that both Brandon and Rickard were already on their way down south when Lyanna was abducted, Aerys should have had his people take them, not the girl - or perhaps both them and the girl. But not the girl in particular. Taking the girl would cause him much more problems than taking and burning them all. No traitors, no rebellion, right?

But then, the theory is pretty much built on sand, anyway. There is no indication that Aerys continued to care about the mystery knight after Harrenhal, or that he ever found out about who he was. Or that Rhaegar learned that Aerys found out. After all, Rhaegar apparently left Dragonstone without staying at KL before that, and the journey he want on did not immediately lead him to the Riverlands.

Are we to believe Rhaegar was informed magically about key events at court happening behind closed doors? If he had know what Aerys supposedly learned wouldn't he have acted immediately rather than traveling to some other place before he returned to the Riverlands?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

How would Aerys know where Lyanna was? Why would anyone tell him about her whereabouts (and how) if they didn't know he was looking for her?

Possibly the same way Rhaegar knew to look for Lyanna in the Riverlands, not ten leagues from Harrenhal, where he was able to locate her, fall upon her, and carry her off. If Rhaegar had such information, why wouldn't Aerys? Lyanna's location or destination could have been common knowledge, and even if it wasn't, Aerys could have learned it from whatever source Rhaegar learned it.

1 hour ago, Geddus said:

Because being batshit insane, or doing very stupid things for love, and being smart aren't mutually exclusive. What's arbitrary about it?

Perhaps you can explain what you think would make him a colossal moron or idiot in the one case, and what would distinguish him being a moron or idiot in that case, but not being a moron or idiot in the other cases? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lord Varys

:rolleyes:

You have a bad habit of matter-of-factly stating things that aren't a matter of fact.

Lyanna was the only potential common denominator between Rhaegar and the Starks. She was the only person Aerys and his lickspittle small councilors had reason to believe had any worth, whatever it may be, to both Rhaegar and the Starks.

Lord Rickard and Brandon were supposedly heading south with two hundred of their best men. They were presumably heading to Riverrun, located on the north bank of the Red Fork, whether they were still North of the Red Fork, or had crossed to the River Road.

Wherever Lyanna had been, was, or was traveling to, she was apparently lightly guarded enough to be abducted by Rhaegar and half a dozen or less men. And that abduction occurred south of the Red Fork, and well to the east of Riverrun.

So she had more potential to be used against more of the players Aerys and his lickspittle small councilors believed to be plotting against him, she was likely closer to King's Landing than the Stark men, and she likely had less guard than the Stark men.

Aerys used Jaime as a hostage against his family, he eventually used Brandon and his companions against their families, he eventually used Elia as a hostage against her family, I am sure he could think of ways to use Lyanna against her family, and possibly Rhaegar.

We know literally nothing about where Rhaegar and his half a dozen companions took to the road from. We know that Rhaegar was on Dragonstone for the birth of Aegon, but that doesn't tell us when or where he met up with his companions, and where they left from. Nor does Yandel's statement tell us that they didn't go immediately to the Rivelands and Lyanna, or that they traveled to some other place(s) before going there.

Those are all interpretations and opinions on your part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Geddus said:

 That's why I'm looking for an explaination for his actions that doesn't make him appear as stupid.

You could try re-examining what you think you know, assuming first that his actions aren't stupid.
That goes down to assumptions about what happened, about what other characters think happened, about how they would have reacted (in your opinion - perhaps your opinion isn't correct on this for example, perhaps you don't fully understand the various implications and match them to their worldview, for example) - everything we assume without explicit, corroborated data from the text, in other words.

I think that happens rather a lot here. Readers have their own world view and make their own assumptions based on that worldview, then decide Rhaegar was grossly stupid or grossly irresponsible, despite all the clear textual evidence to the contrary.
I suspect mostly its that Rhaegar was neither stupid nor irresponsible, but was as his character is described in the books. Not necessarily perfect, nor incapable of making mistakes, but highly intelligent and above all, dutiful. Neither stupid nor irresponsible. Therefore, the theories and narratives that require him to be such are the problem, have the flaws.

Above all, there is more to learn. We don't have all the facts and angles yet. Our judgments are necessarily flawed at this time - which is not to say don't make any, thats practically the essence of humanity, to judge, but to be aware that no matter how certain we think we are, we don't have all the data yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Perhaps you can explain what you think would make him a colossal moron or idiot in the one case, and what would distinguish him being a moron or idiot in that case, but not being a moron or idiot in the other cases? 

I thought I already did: being blinded by obsession, or by love, or being batshit insane doesn't mean being stupid. Concocting and executing a very stupid plan without those factors in play, on the other hand, kinda points in that direction.

As for Aerys, that's not what we were talking about: I was asking why would any lord inform the king of Lyanna's whereabouts if they didn't know he was looking for her.

12 hours ago, corbon said:

You could try re-examining what you think you know, assuming first that his actions aren't stupid.
That goes down to assumptions about what happened, about what other characters think happened, about how they would have reacted (in your opinion - perhaps your opinion isn't correct on this for example, perhaps you don't fully understand the various implications and match them to their worldview, for example) - everything we assume without explicit, corroborated data from the text, in other words.

I think that happens rather a lot here. Readers have their own world view and make their own assumptions based on that worldview, then decide Rhaegar was grossly stupid or grossly irresponsible, despite all the clear textual evidence to the contrary.
I suspect mostly its that Rhaegar was neither stupid nor irresponsible, but was as his character is described in the books. Not necessarily perfect, nor incapable of making mistakes, but highly intelligent and above all, dutiful. Neither stupid nor irresponsible. Therefore, the theories and narratives that require him to be such are the problem, have the flaws.

Above all, there is more to learn. We don't have all the facts and angles yet. Our judgments are necessarily flawed at this time - which is not to say don't make any, thats practically the essence of humanity, to judge, but to be aware that no matter how certain we think we are, we don't have all the data yet.

Yeah, I don't get why you're telling me this. We don't know if Rhaegar's actions were idiotic because we don't know why he did what he did (and we don't really know what he did exactly, either): I was talking about the proposed theory that he wanted to protect Lyanna from Aerys so he thought the best way to do that was to disappear with her without telling anyone, making it look like he abducted her. That's not smart.

Other popular theories are that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna to fulfill some prophecy or that the two were madly in love and eloped: those would make the prince either crazy or irresponsible. Since by all accounts he was neither, I'm looking for something else (I can't come up with anything different than that, sadly).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My personal thoughts (which no one cares about) and which have zero support in the text as of yet. 

Rhaegar finding Lyanna is something that could have happened by chance. My thought are that he may have looked to Brandon's wedding as an opportunity to move forward with his plans for Aerys and the realm and felt that maybe he could get support there. He would have been able to meet with Rickard and Hoster for sure. I imagine Robert would have been there as well and maybe even Jon Arryn. 

A while back, I had mentioned that Rhaegar may have had the opportunity to meet and speak with Brandon when he won the joust against him. I said I thought that Rhaegar was using his wins as a front to meet and speak to important people. We know he won his match against Brandon (the son of the Warden of the North) and we know he won his match against Bronze Yohn (Jon Arryn's most powerful bannerman). 

Brandon may have told him to come to Riverrun and meet his father then.

Yes, we find out from TWoIaF that Brandon was pissed when Rhaegar named Lyanna his QoLaB. Setting aside the idea that Rhaegar tainted Lyanna's honor with his gesture, Brandon's anger could actually be a lot more understandable if Brandon had extended himself to Rhaegar in that way. I would think that he would have received an explanation for Rhaegar choosing her (KotLT, valor, defending the weak and so on).

When Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, she became a pawn in the game. And Aerys may not have been looking to harm her, but bring her to King's Landing as a hostage not just for the north's good behavior, but for Rhaegar's as well. By then, Aerys and his small council must know that Elia cannot have anymore children, it becomes really easy to believe that Rhaegar will turn his attentions to Lyanna after that. I think Elia's not being to fulfill her duty anymore (yes, I know how it sounds) may have made it easier for Rhaegar to get some sort of dispensation and marry someone else. Elia gave birth to two healthy children, but children die in infancy all the time.

And then we have Staunton and Chelsted who were essentially egging Aerys on with regard to the whole Harrenhal "incident," and we have Varys who chooses the information he wants to reveal and when he wants to reveal it. So even if he had known for a while what Lyanna has done, he may chosen his moment to reveal it.

Wheels spinning and all, but there are way too many moving parts to this to just reduce down to something that's either black or white.

ETA: I was wondering. Has it occurred to anyone that the errand Brandon was running when he left Riverrun before his marriage to Catelyn may have been a meeting with Rhaegar about the northern support to his cause? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/2/2018 at 7:00 AM, SFDanny said:

Here it is important to note that what Rhaegar felt for Lyanna is not necessarily what Lyanna felt for him. I would not expect Selmy would be much of a source for her feelings or the history between the two. That he has an informed opinion about Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna is a separate question.

I don't expect that Selmy has an informed opinion about the motivations of either Rhaegar or Lyanna.  After all, Selmy says it himself, he couldn't say what was in Rhaegar's heart when he crowned Lyanna over Elia.  I think the simple answer is that Selmy is a romantic.  He pictures himself giving the tourney crown to Ashara because he had a crush on her.  So he assumes that Rhaegar had the same motivation when he gave Lyanna the crown.  

Now a person who almost certainly had a crush on Rhaegar, Connington, never thinks about Lyanna at all.  Which is telling especially when he thinks about how Elia was unworthy of his "silver prince".  It's more likely that Connington was closer to Rhaegar than Selmy, and Connington may not think of any romantic connotations between Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Or at least he doesn't appear to be jealous of Lyanna's alleged relationship with Rhaegar, like he is with Elia's.

On 10/2/2018 at 7:00 AM, SFDanny said:

But it is not only a Targaryen viewpoint that tells us of Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna. Indeed, Dany's own view on Rhaegar's love for Lyanna is not only informed by stories from her brother, but also from her vision in the House of the Undying in which she sees Rhaegar's death and his last words. What is the source of the vision? The Gods? Magic tricks? We can't say, but it isn't from Viserys. And, just because I know you love semi-canon sources, let me remind you that Martin's approved app confirms it is Lyanna's name he utters as he dies at the Trident. Does that prove Rhaegar loved Lyanna? No, but it sure does support the idea he did.

I'm calling BS on everything in the app being Canon.  Until I hear it from GRRM's own mouth, that Rhaegar said Lyanna, I'm going to chalk that up to fan fiction.  After all, why didn't Dany seem to recognize the name that Rhaegar uttered? 

Quote

“Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.”

I mean, Dany knows Lyanna's name, why the ambiguity?

 

On 10/2/2018 at 7:00 AM, SFDanny said:

we don't disagree about jumping to the conclusion that the Targaryen view is right and Robert's view is wrong. The point is there is lots of evidence that the Targaryens viewed Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna to be motivated by love. Which viewpoint is right? That's for the reader to decide. For me, the deciding factor is not just the widely held view that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, but the lack of ill will towards Rhaegar from Ned. If Ned believed as Robert does, then he should hate Rhaegar the rapist and kidnapper of his beloved sister as much or more than Robert does. Yet he views Robert's hatred as a "madness" and something that reason and the passage of years cannot change. That is what is commonly called a clue.

It doesn't appear that Ned disapproves of Robert having killed Rhaegar.  In fact Eddard flat out tells Robert that he avenged Lyanna at the Trident.

Quote

“You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.

If Eddard didn't think that Rhaegar's death was true vengeance for Lyanna, then he could have simply kept quiet.  Instead he reinforces Robert's belief that killing Rhaegar was vengeance for Lyanna.  I think what bothers Eddard is that Robert can't let his thirst for vengeance go with Rhaegar's death.  He is carrying it over to Rhaegar's family who are blameless.

 

On 10/2/2018 at 7:33 AM, SFDanny said:

From a political standpoint, Rhaegar does so because his interests don't align with those of Lord Rickard's alliances. If one believes Rhaegar creates the tourney at Harrenhal in order to try to win the lords of Westeros to removing his father and putting Rhaegar himself on the throne, then one has to asked what was the response from the Starks, the Arryns, the Tullys, the Baratheons, and the Lannisters to his proposal? It seems clear to me that Rhaegar meets with rejection at Harrenhal, not because these great Houses stand steadfast with Aerys, but because they make it clear they have plans and interests of their own. If one looks at the crowning of Lyanna as a political act, which it certainly was even if it was also a act of love, then one has to say by crowning Lyanna Rhaegar sends a message counter to Rickard's plan to marry his daughter into House Baratheon. Rhaegar makes good on that message when he "kidnaps" Lyanna. The simple answer to your question is that Rhaegar has no interest in allowing Rickard's alliances to come into fruition. Not for reasons of politics, not for reasons of prophecy, nor for reasons of love.

I've heard this before and it seems to have a lot of traction on this board, but once again it doesn't seem reasonable to me.  The way to block a political marriage isn't by either kidnapping or luring away the bride to be.  If anything that is just going to further unite the two families against you.  It by all accounts is a declaration of war.  It's certainly not going to endear the Starks to your side.  If Rhaegar's goals were political, then he would have arranged a competing marriage proposal for Lyanna.  Viserys perhaps.  And if he simply wanted to prevent a wedding to Robert, by secretly luring her away, he wouldn't have made such a public spectacle at the Harrenhal tourney.

The only possibility that makes any sense to me, the only possibility that seems to fall in line with what we know about Rhaegar, is that Rhaegar's manipulation or wooing of Lyanna is related to what he believes her role is in the Song of Ice and Fire.  A song that he is apparently attempting to orchestrate.  

The fact that Eddard seems to find Lyanna somewhat at fault for her own fate, is that Lyanna must have become a willing participant of this conspiracy.  And the only one who would have been in a position to have brought Lyanna into the fold, is Ashara Dayne.  I think this might explain why Eddard acted so uncharacteristically angry at Cat bringing up her name.  (It's certainly not because she is Jon's actual mother).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't expect that Selmy has an informed opinion about the motivations of either Rhaegar or Lyanna.  After all, Selmy says it himself, he couldn't say what was in Rhaegar's heart when he crowned Lyanna over Elia.  I think the simple answer is that Selmy is a romantic.  He pictures himself giving the tourney crown to Ashara because he had a crush on her.  So he assumes that Rhaegar had the same motivation when he gave Lyanna the crown.  

Now a person who almost certainly had a crush on Rhaegar, Connington, never thinks about Lyanna at all.  Which is telling especially when he thinks about how Elia was unworthy of his "silver prince".  It's more likely that Connington was closer to Rhaegar than Selmy, and Connington may not think of any romantic connotations between Lyanna and Rhaegar.  Or at least he doesn't appear to be jealous of Lyanna's alleged relationship with Rhaegar, like he is with Elia's.

A Kingsguard who is around Rhaegar in what must be months in the building of his new army, and rides with him as critical part of Rhaegar's command at the Trident, isn't informed about Rhaegar's feelings towards Lyanna that have turned the entire world of Westeros upon its ass? It looks like ignoring critical evidence to me.

As to Connington, we haven't read his thoughts on Lyanna, but you assume that absence to mean he has none? On what basis is that? Now, unlike Ser Barristan, we know the former Lord Jon wasn't anywhere near Rhaegar from time of his appointment to be Hand to Rhaegar's death. That would limit his ability to know what Rhaegar was thinking about Lyanna and why Rhaegar took her or what he felt about her. Connington might well be a source for the happenings at Harrenhal and its immediate aftermath, but he is just plain left out of the loop after his exile.

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm calling BS on everything in the app being Canon.  Until I hear it from GRRM's own mouth, that Rhaegar said Lyanna, I'm going to chalk that up to fan fiction.

First, I didn't call the app canon. I called it what the author called it - semi-canon. The same as he calls his own remarks, coming from his own mouth. The point is that the semi-canon source supports a large amount of evidence that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. As such, it is more evidence added to the already clear evidence of what the Targaryen view was about Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna.

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

After all, why didn't Dany seem to recognize the name that Rhaegar uttered? 

I mean, Dany knows Lyanna's name, why the ambiguity?

Because the author didn't want to reveal the fact, at that stage in the story, that others thought Rhaegar loved Lyanna. He follows this scene with explicit opinions that that is Rhaegar's motivation. Call it a early clue that all might not be right is Robert's view of history.

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

It doesn't appear that Ned disapproves of Robert having killed Rhaegar.  In fact Eddard flat out tells Robert that he avenged Lyanna at the Trident.

If Eddard didn't think that Rhaegar's death was true vengeance for Lyanna, then he could have simply kept quiet.  Instead he reinforces Robert's belief that killing Rhaegar was vengeance for Lyanna.  I think what bothers Eddard is that Robert can't let his thirst for vengeance go with Rhaegar's death.  He is carrying it over to Rhaegar's family who are blameless.

Let's see? Could it be because Ned is hiding something important from Robert? No, not Ned who tells us in his own private thoughts of the lies he has lived and the price he has had to pay to keep them hidden? What do you think would happen to Ned and Robert's relationship if he told dear old, closer-than-a-brother Bobby that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and didn't want to marry him? Or that it was likely that Lyanna went with Rhaegar to escape the betrothal to Robert? Do you think those truths might endanger not only Ned's friendship with the king, but also the safety of all of Ned's family? And that doesn't even get to what would happen if Ned tells Robert what looks to be the truth about Jon.

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I've heard this before and it seems to have a lot of traction on this board, but once again it doesn't seem reasonable to me.  The way to block a political marriage isn't by either kidnapping or luring away the bride to be.  If anything that is just going to further unite the two families against you.  It by all accounts is a declaration of war.  It's certainly not going to endear the Starks to your side.  If Rhaegar's goals were political, then he would have arranged a competing marriage proposal for Lyanna.  Viserys perhaps.  And if he simply wanted to prevent a wedding to Robert, by secretly luring her away, he wouldn't have made such a public spectacle at the Harrenhal tourney.

I think here you are confusing a crown prince, who has his own agenda but little formal power, with the king. Rhaegar has no ability to arrange a marriage between anyone other than his own small children. Even Aerys has little formal role in arranging the marriages of the High Lords of the realm or their children. The last time we know a king did that was Aegon the Conqueror. Of course, he and his sisters had dragons to override the High Lords objections. Aerys does not. Instead Aerys has to resort to bestowing "honors" to people like Jaime to break the pending marriage pact between Jaime and Lysa. Much like Rhaegar does with Lyanna in crowning her his queen of love and beauty and thereby not only "honors" her, but also declares his own interest in preventing the match between Lyanna and Robert.

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The only possibility that makes any sense to me, the only possibility that seems to fall in line with what we know about Rhaegar, is that Rhaegar's manipulation or wooing of Lyanna is related to what he believes her role is in the Song of Ice and Fire.  A song that he is apparently attempting to orchestrate.  

As I stated previously, I think you make the mistake of looking at this through an absolutist lens. It doesn't have to be just a question of what Rhaegar thinks prophecy is telling him might need to happen. He can be motivated by many things.

20 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

The fact that Eddard seems to find Lyanna somewhat at fault for her own fate, is that Lyanna must have become a willing participant of this conspiracy.  And the only one who would have been in a position to have brought Lyanna into the fold, is Ashara Dayne.  I think this might explain why Eddard acted so uncharacteristically angry at Cat bringing up her name.  (It's certainly not because she is Jon's actual mother).

Why you think Ashara is in a position to bring Lyanna "into the fold" is beyond me. Do you know of a relationship between the two that the rest of us don't?

As to Ned's thoughts about Lyanna and her role in a "conspiracy" I do think it is important to note Ned shares none of this with anyone other than an off handed remark to his nine-year-old daughter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

After all, why didn't Dany seem to recognize the name that Rhaegar uttered? 

Was it even Rhaegar who murmured the name?

Dany doesn't think such a thing, then or later in talking about Rhaegar with Jorah.  She thinks of that entity only as "a dying prince."

Also, how is it possible Dany neglected to notice or comment on the gigantic, spiked warhammer that must have been embedded in the center of the dying prince's chest, if it was Rhaegar and rubies were literally in the air? 

Seems quite a startling omission, since she was looking right at him.

And how truly superhuman must Rhaegar have been, that (1) he could have a gigantic warhammer, so heavy Ned could scarcely lift it, slammed into his heart while he was mounted on a horse... then (2) after having his heart shredded by the warhammer, he managed to find himself on his feet on the ground (a backflip off the horse, perhaps? -- Robert was exceptionally strong)... so that then, from this standing position, he could (3) "sink to his knees," and finally, still quite miraculously conscious, he could, at last, (4) murmur a woman's name?

I'm surprised he didn't just grow a new heart, if he could manage all that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

A Kingsguard who is around Rhaegar in what must be months in the building of his new army, and rides with him as critical part of Rhaegar's command at the Trident, isn't informed about Rhaegar's feelings towards Lyanna that have turned the entire world of Westeros upon its ass? It looks like ignoring critical evidence to me.

As to Connington, we haven't read his thoughts on Lyanna, but you assume that absence to mean he has none? On what basis is that? Now, unlike Ser Barristan, we know the former Lord Jon wasn't anywhere near Rhaegar from time of his appointment to be Hand to Rhaegar's death. That would limit his ability to know what Rhaegar was thinking about Lyanna and why Rhaegar took her or what he felt about her. Connington might well be a source for the happenings at Harrenhal and its immediate aftermath, but he is just plain left out of the loop after his exile.

Selmy directly admits that he doesn't know what was in Rhaegar's heart when he crowned Lyanna.  He also admits that Rhaegar trusted him less than Arthur and Harrenhal was proof of that.  The World Book also indicates that Rhaegar had an inner circle, and Selmy's name was not included.    So while I agree that Rhaegar and Selmy may have worked together to rally the troops, I think it's highly possible that Selmy was left in the dark as to Rhaegar's true motivations in his actions at Harrenhal.  I mean just because people fight and go to war together, it doesn't mean that they necessarily really know the inner thoughts of that the person.  I.e. Robb and Roose, or Tyrion and Mandon Moore to name two extreme examples.

As for Connington, I'm sure that he does have an opinion of Lyanna, but it may not be as a romantic rival.  The fact that he appears jealous of Elia's marriage to Rhaegar but doesn't think of Lyanna makes me a tad suspicious.  Of course it could be that Connington believed that while Elia was unworthy of Rhaegar, Lyanna wasn't.  Maybe.  But my guess is that Connington truly believed that only he was worthy of Rhaegar.  

 

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

First, I didn't call the app canon. I called it what the author called it - semi-canon. The same as he calls his own remarks, coming from his own mouth. The point is that the semi-canon source supports a large amount of evidence that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. As such, it is more evidence added to the already clear evidence of what the Targaryen view was about Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna.

I don't think you need fan fiction to support the fact that there is evidence that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.  The POVs of Dany and Kevan Lannister certainly constitutes "evidence" of this.  The question is how much weight to give said evidence.  Usually when Martin makes something this explicit, we should treat it with much caution.  After all in Dany's first POV chapter we're told that this war was fought over Rhaegar's love for Lyanna.  

The reasons I've ultimately decided to disregard this as a motivation is as follows:

1) The basis of their relationship is on a gossamer thin string.  There simply isn't enough interaction to justify the formation of a true relationship.  A sad song, an alleged daring, spunky, commendable joust, and a crown of flowers makes for a nice fairy tale, but it seems a fairly shallow, unrealistic motivation for Rhaegar's fairly extreme and self-destructive actions.  And then there's that awkward bit sandwiched inbetween where Rhaegar travels back with his pregnant wife to see to the birth of his son, whom he proclaims to be a prophesied messiah. 

2) It seems contrary to what we're told about Rhaegar.  First  he is compared to Baelor the Blessed, i.e. duty above temptation.  Then we're told that it wasn't in Rhaegar to be happy.   In Dany's vision, Rhaegar's statement that there needs to be a third head of the dragon is accompanied by sadness.  Then we're told that Rhaegar's one true love is Summerhall.  And we're told that Summerhall deals with an obsession over dragons.  

3) Rhaegar also seems to believe in prophecy, a dragon with three heads, a prince that was promised, and a song of ice and fire.  Aemon directly relates the prince that was promised with the War for the Dawn.  It seems very unlikely that Aemon would believe this yet Rhaegar wouldn't.  In other words, it seems fairly clear to me that Rhaegar was preparing for the Long Night.

4) For Rhaegar to risk all of this and risk open warfare for a girl he really doesn't know makes him appear to be a starry eyed, romantic and a fairly insipid one at that.  While I admit I find that prospect amusing, I don't think it's really supported in the story.

While I'll win no converts over this, I think that the story's closest equivalent to Rhaegar in terms of character motivation is probably Melisandre.  Both seem to put much stock in prophecy, and specifically in prophecies involved in the fighting of a war for the dawn.  Melisandre is a seductress, but she does it for a purpose.  My guess is that if Rhaegar became a seducer he did it for the ultimate purpose, trying to orchestrate the fulfillment of prophecy.

 

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Because the author didn't want to reveal the fact, at that stage in the story, that others thought Rhaegar loved Lyanna. He follows this scene with explicit opinions that that is Rhaegar's motivation. Call it a early clue that all might not be right is Robert's view of history.

But why wouldn't he want to reveal it?  At that point in the story, the reader has already assumed that this be the case.  The only purpose in not explicitly revealing the name is to allow the reader to continue along a primrose path, that may not be correct.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Let's see? Could it be because Ned is hiding something important from Robert? No, not Ned who tells us in his own private thoughts of the lies he has lived and the price he has had to pay to keep them hidden? What do you think would happen to Ned and Robert's relationship if he told dear old, closer-than-a-brother Bobby that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and didn't want to marry him? Or that it was likely that Lyanna went with Rhaegar to escape the betrothal to Robert? Do you think those truths might endanger not only Ned's friendship with the king, but also the safety of all of Ned's family? And that doesn't even get to what would happen if Ned tells Robert what looks to be the truth about Jon.

I'm not saying that Ned should have corrected Robert, I'm just saying Ned could have just as easily stayed quiet and not further reinforced Robert's belief that Rhaegar was at least partly responsible for Lyanna's fate.  Especially since he is worried about Robert's obsession with Rhaegar.  Or in the alternative of staying quiet, he could have merely reminded Robert that he already killed Rhaegar at the Trident.  Instead he goes one step further, and confirms for Robert that killing Rheagar was indeed vengeance for Lyanna.  Eddard will lie, granted, but he seems really uptight over it.  Yet these words seemed to leave his lips fairly easily.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I think here you are confusing a crown prince, who has his own agenda but little formal power, with the king. Rhaegar has no ability to arrange a marriage between anyone other than his own small children. Even Aerys has little formal role in arranging the marriages of the High Lords of the realm or their children. The last time we know a king did that was Aegon the Conqueror. Of course, he and his sisters had dragons to override the High Lords objections. Aerys does not. Instead Aerys has to resort to bestowing "honors" to people like Jaime to break the pending marriage pact between Jaime and Lysa. Much like Rhaegar does with Lyanna in crowning her his queen of love and beauty and thereby not only "honors" her, but also declares his own interest in preventing the match between Lyanna and Robert.

I'm sorry, but luring or kidnapping Lyanna away to prevent a marriage pact is a ludicrous attempt to block a political alliance.  What Aerys did with Jaime was completely different and actually fairly clever.  You bestow a very public honor on Jaime that Tywin can't openly oppose while you rob Tywin of his heir and one of his two bargaining chips in creating a political alliance.

Rhaegar already being married, secretly luring or kidnapping away from her family without their consent, and making himself the primary suspect is all kinds of lunacy.  Let's say for the sake of argument he lured Lyanna away for a political purpose.  While a stupid political move, the next act would be to make a very public wedding between the two to force the hand of Rickard Stark to ultimately capitulate.  

Otherwise in this feudal society, there is really no difference between kidnapping Lyanna kicking and screaming or luring her away without her family's permission.  Both acts are basically going to be considered a theft from the Starks.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

As I stated previously, I think you make the mistake of looking at this through an absolutist lens. It doesn't have to be just a question of what Rhaegar thinks prophecy is telling him might need to happen. He can be motivated by many things.

In a way I'm much less an absolutist than most.  In fact I think the whole premise of this long running thread is looking at the story in too absolute a lens.  By not considering any possibilities other than Rhaegar and Lyanna as Jon's parents a lot of theories are being built on a very shaky foundation.  

Yes, I'm absolutely sure that Rhaegar's actions were a result of his obsession over Summerhall, and in his beliefs of the song of ice and fire.  What I'm not sure about, is what the song of ice and fire really entails.  And without that knowledge I think it's presumptuous to assume that it must means that Targaryen + Stark = Jon which also equals the prince that was promised.  My suspicion is that the "song" is much more complicated and darker than that.

5 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Why you think Ashara is in a position to bring Lyanna "into the fold" is beyond me. Do you know of a relationship between the two that the rest of us don't?

As to Ned's thoughts about Lyanna and her role in a "conspiracy" I do think it is important to note Ned shares none of this with anyone other than an off handed remark to his nine-year-old daughter.

This one's quite easy to answer.  If Rhaegar was at least partly responsible for Lyanna's disappearance, then there is only one person who would be in a position to have been both a part of Rhaegar's inner circle, and been in a position to have had contact with Lyanna at the time of her disappearance.  Assuming that Ashara started a relationship with Eddard after Harrenhal (and it seems very probable at this point that they did) there is at least a decent chance that this would have also given Ashara a chance to have formed some type of friendship with Eddard's sister.  And if Rhaegar decided that Lyanna was an important part of his future plans, then Ashara could have continued what Rhaegar started at Harrenhal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

A Kingsguard who is around Rhaegar in what must be months in the building of his new army, and rides with him as critical part of Rhaegar's command at the Trident, isn't informed about Rhaegar's feelings towards Lyanna that have turned the entire world of Westeros upon its ass? It looks like ignoring critical evidence to me.

But we know for a fact that in Martinlandia, characters who look like they are in the know can frequently be wrong.

Tyrion knows Jaime and Cersei very well. He has observed them for years. He knows the children aren't Robert's. When Tyrion gets back to King's Landing, Cersei practically confesses that she killed Robert. Pycelle admits he let Arryn die for the Lannisters--an act that helped turn the entire world of Westeros on its ass.

All of this is shown to us--all of the very, very good reasons Tyrion has to believe that the sister he knows really well killed Arryn.

But Tyrion is wrong. 

A similar thing happens with Ned--he may not know Cersei as well as Tyrion does, but we see his evidence, we see his reasons for believing as he does. They are very, very good reasons. And he, too, is wrong.

So, assuming Barristan interpreted Rhaegar correctly without seeing why Barristan thought as he did. . . isn't that also potentially ignoring evidence? The evidence of Martin's narrative precedent?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On October 6, 2018 at 8:21 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I'm calling BS on everything in the app being Canon.  Until I hear it from GRRM's own mouth, that Rhaegar said Lyanna, I'm going to chalk that up to fan fiction.  After all, why didn't Dany seem to recognize the name that Rhaegar uttered? 

 

8 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Because the author didn't want to reveal the fact, at that stage in the story, that others thought Rhaegar loved Lyanna. He follows this scene with explicit opinions that that is Rhaegar's motivation. Call it a early clue that all might not be right is Robert's view of history.

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But why wouldn't he want to reveal it?  At that point in the story, the reader has already assumed that this be the case.  The only purpose in not explicitly revealing the name is to allow the reader to continue along a primrose path, that may not be correct.

@Frey family reunion:agree:

Would also add that Martin took a fair amount of time showing that in the HOTU, Dany can discern words and names that are strange to her. She can hear whispers and odd phrases clearly.

But the name doesn't register--Lyanna's name means a lot to Dany: we see that with her reaction to Barristan's story. And she knows Elia's name really well. If the name was one she knew, one that mattered to her, really seems like it should have registered.

And having Rhaegar clearly whisper "Lyanna" would have shown us nothing more than what we have been told from the very first mention of Rhaegar. Whether the whisper means he loved her or not would remain to be seen. But it would not have been much of a revelation to the reader. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...