Jump to content
Ygrain

R+L=J v.165

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, divica said:

I was reading your post and suddenly thought. Does anyone ever say if rhaegar married Lyanna?

We know he kidnapped her and they disappeared. In addition, rhaegar loved her, believed in profecies, could have gotten a divorce and targaryens used to practice polygamy. So what if like you said it was public knowledge he married her and we simply haven t seen a character thinking about it?

No one mentions there was a marriage or thinks of it. But at the same time we don't find out that Tywin was angling to marry Cersei to Rhaegar until AFFC and we don't find out the extent of the horror of the murders of Brandon until somewhere closer to the of Clash. 

So yeah, if there was marriage and it's something that is known, then someone's bound to come out with it. 

But you know there's something wrong with the story when someone like Wyman Manderly is outraged that a Frey has a dragon's name. (but then, it's a Frey and it may mean nothing). 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And the true trick to the Jon Snow plan was that nobody ever thought that Eddard Stark's bastard may have been Lyanna Stark's son by Rhaegar Targaryen. Had a single person entertained that notion the entire card house would have come crashing down. Because that is as sweet a thought as the idea that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen aren't Robert's children but Jaime's. Once you have such a thought you never let it go again.

I sort of disagree with this. Varys and Littlefinger know that Cersei's children are bastards. They didn't say anything because it suited their agenda. And Mace Tyrell doesn't seem to give a fig so long as he gains power through his daughter. 

Jon is so far removed in the north, but if he had ridden into war with Robb, I think things may have been different for people who may have suspected. 

I still think there are people that will turn up at the Wall for Jon sooner rather than later.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And the whole Jon Snow story makes, at least in my opinion, only as much sense as it does if people had known, in the end, that Rhaegar and Lyanna were also married. Without that, there is essentially no reason for Eddard Stark to disguise Jon Snow as his bastard. He could make him Lyanna's bastard by Rhaegar. A bastard is essentially a political non-entity, especially a bastard who can never be acknowledged by his true father. Ned could have made Lyanna's child her bastard by an unknown father. Considering that he has no Valyrian features he wouldn't have been an obvious son of Rhaegar's. 

We don't know that he doesn't have Valyrian features. People tend to see that he looks like a Stark and stop at that. No one knows who his mother is, so it's enough for them to see the Stark in his face. 

I'm doing a reread of AGOT these days because have my priorities straight and there's Syrio Forel's story in Arya IV where he tells her the story of how he became the first sword of Braavo. And he finishes with this little gem, which I think applies very nicely to the people who look and Jon and see only a Stark.

Quote

"Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth."

The line dialogue goes a bit further when Syrio tells Arya that when they get to Winterfell, she'll get to train with Needle and Arya's reaction is to speak of Jon.

Edited by Widow's Watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, divica said:

I was reading your post and suddenly thought. Does anyone ever say if rhaegar married Lyanna?

As of yet no. But we only learned that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna at sword point from Daenerys in ADwD. We could have learned this story - and the entire story of Lyanna and Rhaegar - back in AGoT if the author had wanted to tell it. But he did not. He likes to reveal things piece by piece. Just think how slowly he is revealing stuff about the Children of the Forest and the Others, or how long it took until Tyrion and the reader learned the truth about Tysha or until Jaime revealed Aerys' plan to burn KL.

56 minutes ago, divica said:

We know he kidnapped her and they disappeared. In addition, rhaegar loved her, believed in profecies, could have gotten a divorce and targaryens used to practice polygamy. So what if like you said it was public knowledge he married her and we simply haven t seen a character thinking about it?

The chances of an annulment there are about zero. Rhaegar had children by Elia, and pretty much no chance to actually rid himself of his first wife before a second marriage - and with the Targaryens having some precedents of polygamy he wouldn't have felt the need to do that if he felt the need to marry Lyanna.

We really don't have to assume Rhaegar and Lyanna must have a secret marriage. Nothing the people in the books think or say indicates that Rhaegar and Lyanna were not married. If people can be of the opinion Ramsay raped Donella Hornwood and 'Arya Stark', then Robert can also know that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and believe that Rhaegar raped Lyanna. That's not mutually exclusive.

And nobody gives us any indication as to what the relationship status of Rhaegar and Lyanna was. Not Ned, not Robert, not Cersei, not Dany, not anyone. Nobody ever says she was his mistress, his lover, his paramour, or his wife. It is noteworthy that this is still an open question when we pretty much know already that Rhaegar and Lyanna had some sort of romantic relationship. That allows the author to just reveal in a later book that they were, indeed, married. He doesn't have to make this the secret truth behind an official story - he can just reveal it as the official story because as of yet we don't have an official story.

56 minutes ago, divica said:

I don t know if it is grrm style to have such a public fact ignored and suddenly become known, but it makes sense with what we know of the past. Why the KG stayed in the ToJ, why ned hid lyanna's baby, why if Lyanna told her familly she loved rhaegar they wouldn t back down (it was a hummiliation to marry without her father consent)... Why the KG would die to defend jon (they would believe that ned would tell Robert and when he finds the truth he would kill jon because he is the heir). There are several things that fit the story much better...

The issue of the KG is more complex. When Rhaegar left Lyanna their child was not yet born. The knights would have to protect the mere wife of a prince instead of said prince himself (who was riding to war) or the king and his family. The knights don't have to care about the claim of the unborn child. True Kingsguard would, most likely, die just as gladly defending a mistress or bastard of a king if that was their assignment. The mystery is why they considered it to be a worthy assignment - but that's an issue that would have been determined when Rhaegar left Lyanna, not later when Ned arrived at the tower.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I sort of disagree with this. Varys and Littlefinger know that Cersei's children are bastards. They didn't say anything because it suited their agenda. And Mace Tyrell doesn't seem to give a fig so long as he gains power through his daughter. 

Not everybody has to care about such an idea, but the idea itself can be very dangerous. It poisoned Stannis' mind against his sister-in-law when he first had the idea, and then it poisoned the mind of Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark, until it finally set the Realm aflame.

It doesn't matter whether it is true or not. It makes for an interesting story and can feel *right* or convincing - just as the idea that Prince Aegon could have survived his death and return to Westeros to save his people is going to be too sweet to ignore. Not everybody will buy the story, but many people will. More than enough to cause trouble.

18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

Jon is so far removed in the north, but if he had ridden into war with Robb, I think things may have been different for people who may have suspected.

The moment of truth didn't come when people saw the boy. It came when the news about Eddard Stark's bastard spread, and the speculations about his mother came up.

That's the time when people would have connected Ned's son to Lyanna's death in Dorne. The fact that they did not indicates that Ned kept these two events separate very efficiently.

18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

I still think there are people that will turn up at the Wall for Jon sooner rather than later.

Why should they? They have Aegon now. And he looks like a proper Targaryen, and is a son of Rhaegar people actually knew existed.

Even if I was a Targaryen loyalist in Westeros I'd not buy the cock-and-bull story that the honorable Eddard Stark disguised Rhaegar's son as his bastard. Mostly because that is a disgraceful and unpleasant story - a prince shouldn't have to live the life of a bastard - and because I'd have no reason to believe such a son of Rhaegar's actually existed.

18 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

We don't know that he doesn't have Valyrian features. People tend to see that he looks like a Stark and stop at that. No one knows who his mother is, so it's enough for them to see the Stark in his face. 

We know it. Valyrian features are purple eyes and silver-gold hair, and Jon has neither of them. He might have Rhaegar's hands, nipples, nose, teeth, toes, earlobes, etc. but even if that's the case - that's going to be irrelevant. Nobody is going to believe he is Rhaegar's son because of that - even if there were people recognizing such similarities (which is rather unlikely, now that Rhaegar is dead for over fifteen years).

And if people see something of Rhaegar in Jon after they buy the story of his true parentage then we'll never know whether they believe that because the similarities are there, or because people are imagining them because they want to see such similarities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The issue of the KG is more complex. When Rhaegar left Lyanna their child was not yet born. The knights would have to protect the mere wife of a prince instead of said prince himself (who was riding to war) or the king and his family. The knights don't have to care about the claim of the unborn child. True Kingsguard would, most likely, die just as gladly defending a mistress or bastard of a king if that was their assignment. The mystery is why they considered it to be a worthy assignment - but that's an issue that would have been determined when Rhaegar left Lyanna, not later when Ned arrived at the tower.

The thing is that by protecting Lyanna they are protecting her baby that is a member of the king's familly. In addition, as far as we know there isn t anyone else in the tower capable of protecting Lyanna and the baby. So the question is: Would the KG leave an unborn member of the royal familly completly unprotected?

And considering that rhaegar was going to KL if aerys wanted them to return he would probably send someone to get them after rhaeger get to KL. They are basically stanying at the tower until aerys decides what to do with them/Lyanna. It makes sense...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, divica said:

The thing is that by protecting Lyanna they are protecting her baby that is a member of the king's familly. In addition, as far as we know there isn t anyone else in the tower capable of protecting Lyanna and the baby. So the question is: Would the KG leave an unborn member of the royal familly completly unprotected?

They certainly could have handed the pregnant woman to some other loyalists. Not every wife of a prince has to be protected by the Kingsguard. Especially not three Kingsguard, one of them the Lord Commander.

3 minutes ago, divica said:

And considering that rhaegar was going to KL if aerys wanted them to return he would probably send someone to get them after rhaeger get to KL. They are basically stanying at the tower until aerys decides what to do with them/Lyanna. It makes sense...

It makes sense if they wanted to do what Rhaegar told them. But the fact that Rhaegar wanted KG to protect/guard/keep Lyanna is rather odd in and of itself - even more so the fact that they kept her in the middle of nowhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It doesn't matter whether it is true or not. It makes for an interesting story and can feel *right* or convincing - just as the idea that Prince Aegon could have survived his death and return to Westeros to save his people is going to be too sweet to ignore. Not everybody will buy the story, but many people will. More than enough to cause trouble.

The moment of truth didn't come when people saw the boy. It came when the news about Eddard Stark's bastard spread, and the speculations about his mother came up.

That's the time when people would have connected Ned's son to Lyanna's death in Dorne. The fact that they did not indicates that Ned kept these two events separate very efficiently.

Why should they? They have Aegon now. And he looks like a proper Targaryen, and is a son of Rhaegar people actually knew existed.

Even if I was a Targaryen loyalist in Westeros I'd not buy the cock-and-bull story that the honorable Eddard Stark disguised Rhaegar's son as his bastard. Mostly because that is a disgraceful and unpleasant story - a prince shouldn't have to live the life of a bastard - and because I'd have no reason to believe such a son of Rhaegar's actually existed.

We know it. Valyrian features are purple eyes and silver-gold hair, and Jon has neither of them. He might have Rhaegar's hands, nipples, nose, teeth, toes, earlobes, etc. but even if that's the case - that's going to be irrelevant. Nobody is going to believe he is Rhaegar's son because of that - even if there were people recognizing such similarities (which is rather unlikely, now that Rhaegar is dead for over fifteen years).

And if people see something of Rhaegar in Jon after they buy the story of his true parentage then we'll never know whether they believe that because the similarities are there, or because people are imagining them because they want to see such similarities.

You are talking about 2 diferent things. Convincing people of something is completly diferent from it being true.

Just like it is very sweet to believe that Aegon is true it is also very sweet to believe he is a fake. You just have to say jon con decided to take a kid from the streets with the proper hair and eyes, dress him like a targ and seek revenge on the winners of the rebellion. There is no way to prove the boy is actually Aegon...

 

In jon's case it may be more belivable if there are enough people alive to testify its veracity. And rhaegar might have left something in the ToJ for his baby that the starks wouldn t have access otherwise.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They certainly could have handed the pregnant woman to some other loyalists. Not every wife of a prince has to be protected by the Kingsguard. Especially not three Kingsguard, one of them the Lord Commander.

It makes sense if they wanted to do what Rhaegar told them. But the fact that Rhaegar wanted KG to protect/guard/keep Lyanna is rather odd in and of itself - even more so the fact that they kept her in the middle of nowhere.

They aren t protecting only the wife but the unborn child in a time of war. Everybody wants to find Lyanna! And she probably can t travel because of the pregnancy. Basically Lyanna was the most wanted woman of westeros at the moment! And if people discovered her the life of her child (a member of the royal familly) would be in danger.

You are considering how KG behave under normal circunstances, however this case is very abnormal. She isn t just the wife of a prince. She is the most wanted women by the enemies of the king and pregnant with a targ. She must have protection! In addition, arthur is rhaegar's best friend... So when rhaegar learned of how badly the war was going it is normal for him to ask the 3 KG to pretect his unborn baby and that arthur influences the decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, divica said:

However no one (with the exception of danny/viserys) EVER talks about this

Barristan: "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it."

There is also a mention somewhere about the singers' version -  that Robert and Rhaegar fought for the woman they both claimed to love.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Barristan: "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it."

There is also a mention somewhere about the singers' version -  that Robert and Rhaegar fought for the woman they both claimed to love.

That's right!

The elder brother.  He fought for the Targaryens during the war of the usurper.  Of course, he admittedly took the singers' version, the bias of Rhaegar and that of Robert.  Both claimed to loved Lyanna.

I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.

Now which singers sang what part of Rhaegar's or Robert's version? or which singers in general that took both versions of claimed love as truth?  One thing is certain, by having a version that rebukes Robert's proclaimed image of Rhaegar is already enough, enough to investigate further that Lyanna may indeed have gone willingly.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, IceFire125 said:

The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.

Ooh, good point. So it was common knowledge amongst soldiers in Rhaegar's army (or one, at least) that their Commander supposedly loved the woman he was fighting for. Then it can't have been a big mystery to the rest of the population, especially the nobility. Not that I ever suspected the soldiers thought they were fighting for the rights of kidnappers and rapists, but that's one less person who runs with Bobby B's official line.

Poor George, he probably thought he was being really tricky by having most of the characters avoid talking or thinking about the whole scandal in too much detail. Then he could have hit the more clueless amongst us (which would have included me if I hadn't read RLJ online after my first read through) with the big twist - sadly, time and circumstances have overtaken him and that horse has long bolted; now the "reveal" will be pretty anticlimactic (although satisfying nevertheless - no doubt I'll want a cigarette afterwards).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We know it. Valyrian features are purple eyes and silver-gold hair, and Jon has neither of them.

My bad, I was thinking Targaryen when I read your post and thinking Targaryen when I typed my response.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, divica said:

Just like it is very sweet to believe that Aegon is true it is also very sweet to believe he is a fake. You just have to say jon con decided to take a kid from the streets with the proper hair and eyes, dress him like a targ and seek revenge on the winners of the rebellion. There is no way to prove the boy is actually Aegon...

Well, no. Right now the people of Westeros greatly desire and look for a savior. It is not just Illyrio imagining that, the people actually want that. And they don't expect the corrupt and warmongering nobles to save them - they want a real king. A Targaryen king. In that climate even an obvious impostor pretending to be Viserys III or Aegon could have considerable success.

There is a minority of hated people - like the Lannisters, say - who may have a vested interest in believing Aegon is fake, but the majority of the people have no reason to do so. They have even a better motivation to believe he is the real deal than Lord Nestor Royce had to believe Marillion killed Lysa or Lysa wished him to have the Gates of the Moon as a hereditary seat.

9 hours ago, divica said:

In jon's case it may be more belivable if there are enough people alive to testify its veracity. And rhaegar might have left something in the ToJ for his baby that the starks wouldn t have access otherwise.

Jon was still raised and presented as Eddard Stark's bastard. The idea that a bastard not looking like a Targaryen prince is a Targaryen prince is going to be very hard to swallow. Mostly because it means that a bastard can become a prince - and that's the kind of thing nobility isn't looking forward to because it breaks the rules of the society and defies the class system.

And since there is not going to be conclusive proof that Jon Snow is really Rhaegar's son there will always remain a shadow of doubt that he is just a Stark bastard - and very few people would like such a person to sit the Iron Throne.

Ned making Lyanna's son his bastard is a fact now. And that's not going to go away just like that.

9 hours ago, divica said:

They aren t protecting only the wife but the unborn child in a time of war. Everybody wants to find Lyanna! And she probably can t travel because of the pregnancy. Basically Lyanna was the most wanted woman of westeros at the moment! And if people discovered her the life of her child (a member of the royal familly) would be in danger.

She clearly wasn't safe at that tower, either. And there is no hint that everybody wanted to find Lyanna. By definition, she would have been much safer at a proper castle, protected by a proper garrison.

When Rhaegar left Lyanna would have just been in the early months of her pregnancy. We don't even know whether they already knew that she was pregnant at that point. And an unborn child is usually not as important as a living child. Especially in light of the fact that sons are much more valuable and important than daughters in this world. If Lyanna had given birth to a daughter the Kingsguard would have pretty much wasted their time protecting her.

9 hours ago, divica said:

You are considering how KG behave under normal circunstances, however this case is very abnormal. She isn t just the wife of a prince. She is the most wanted women by the enemies of the king and pregnant with a targ. She must have protection! In addition, arthur is rhaegar's best friend... So when rhaegar learned of how badly the war was going it is normal for him to ask the 3 KG to pretect his unborn baby and that arthur influences the decision.

Sure, that could all be the case. The point is just that we don't know why Rhaegar wanted (just three) Kingsguard take care of Lyanna, nor why those men agreed to do that kind of thing. Why didn't they urge him to take Lyanna somewhere else? Why was Rhaegar stupid enough not to do this? Chances are not that bad that Lyanna died because of the shitty conditions she had to give birth to her child. There is no indication that a maester was at the tower, for instance. Perhaps a maester could have saved her life.

As to the love thing:

We also have it effectively confirmed that Rhaegar said Lyanna's name when he died.

What we don't have confirmed as of yet is whether Lyanna was actually fine with Rhaegar's love - or fine with that the entire time. Keeping her in a tower in the middle of nowhere doesn't give us the impression she was treated as a princess by marriage or the future queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't seen this discussed and maybe there isn't all that much to discuss, but I find Jon I in AGOT and what Meera tells us about Lyanna at the feast at Harrenhal very similar in spirit.

Jon I in AGOT is the feast at Winterfell for the royals and Jon is seated near the end of the hall with squires, freeriders and this is one instance where he doesn't mind being a bastard because he gets to listen to all sorts of stories, he gets to drink as much as he wants and have his direwolf with him. But emotionally, Jon really isn't so happy. There's this moment where his eyes begin to prickle and rubs them, and he blames the smoke for it, when the reality is actually different. And then Benjen sits with him, and when Jon tells him he wants to join the Night's Watch, Benjen replies that he should have a woman first and father bastards of his own and Jon's reaction is very telling of his emotional state, how he feels about his bastardy. Benjen unknowingly hit on something that's painful for Jon. Benjen wasn't being cruel or malicious. Jon makes a bit of a show, he's had too much to drink, he knocks the flagon of wine one of the serving women was carrying, flees the hall in tears.

Meera in Bran II in ASOS gives us a bit of a glimpse into what Lyanna was like. But it's the part at the feast that's interesting. Rhaegar sings a song so sad that Lyanna sniffles and then Benjen turns around and teases her and she upends her wine on his head. 

What I always found interesting in this very small passage is that Benjen is the one involved with Jon and Lyanna. We know Jon was already hurting and Benjen hit the bull's eye. And we have no idea what he said to Lyanna, but there's a really good chance his tease had to do with Rhaegar, and maybe in that instance too, Benjen hit a nerve unknowingly. 

The text tells us that Rhaegar loved Lyanna and I know people are stuck on the whole but they met at Harrenhal for the first time even though we really don't know that it is true (it may or may not be true), but if I want to take this further, Lyanna like Jon would have been sitting in the lower tables, not up there, and maybe she thought it was better that way because she was far from the Mad King who like Robert (in Jon's mind) didn't look like a king, but Rhaegar does, because that's what a king should look like.

It may be nothing at all, but I think Jon I is meant to shed some light on Lyanna's own state of mind.

Edited by Widow's Watch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Barristan: "Prince Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it."

There is also a mention somewhere about the singers' version -  that Robert and Rhaegar fought for the woman they both claimed to love.

Good catch. However it is interesting barristan says "his lady Lyanna"...

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

She clearly wasn't safe at that tower, either. And there is no hint that everybody wanted to find Lyanna. By definition, she would have been much safer at a proper castle, protected by a proper garrison.

When Rhaegar left Lyanna would have just been in the early months of her pregnancy. We don't even know whether they already knew that she was pregnant at that point. And an unborn child is usually not as important as a living child. Especially in light of the fact that sons are much more valuable and important than daughters in this world. If Lyanna had given birth to a daughter the Kingsguard would have pretty much wasted their time protecting her.

Sure, that could all be the case. The point is just that we don't know why Rhaegar wanted (just three) Kingsguard take care of Lyanna, nor why those men agreed to do that kind of thing. Why didn't they urge him to take Lyanna somewhere else? Why was Rhaegar stupid enough not to do this? Chances are not that bad that Lyanna died because of the shitty conditions she had to give birth to her child. There is no indication that a maester was at the tower, for instance. Perhaps a maester could have saved her life.

As to the love thing:

We also have it effectively confirmed that Rhaegar said Lyanna's name when he died.

What we don't have confirmed as of yet is whether Lyanna was actually fine with Rhaegar's love - or fine with that the entire time. Keeping her in a tower in the middle of nowhere doesn't give us the impression she was treated as a princess by marriage or the future queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

In theory she was safer in an unknow location like the ToJ than in a known garrisson because if robert found her location he would lead his army there to take her.

And from what we know of Lyanna what do you think she would do when she found out that her father and brother died because they went to KL looking for her and Ned and Robert are fighting a war because she was kidnapped? I think it is obvious she would ride somewhere and do something! She wouldn t stay at the ToJ knowing what is going on.

Then you can say may rhaegar may have really kidnapped her and wouldn t let her leave the tower. However, in that scenario he would take her with him to KL and put her in the red keep. The only thing that makes sense is that she can t travel... And as far as I know the dates of when Rhaegar leaves the ToJ and when Ned arrives there are kind of unknown...

And do you think rhaegar and Lyanna lived alone in the tower? they should have some servants to prepare food and wash clothes and they aren t mentioned either. So if Lyanna is pregnant it isn t strange that rheagar arranged for a maester to be there.

Finally, he wanted the KG to stay there because they are few of the men totally loyal to the targaryens. If he sent for other soldiers and one of them betrayed the location of Lyanna to robert, rhaegar would lose her. It makes sense to keep everything in secret if Lyanna can t move from there! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, divica said:

Good catch. However it is interesting barristan says "his lady Lyanna"...

That is leaving her status pretty vague. Keep in mind that Rhaegar would have been in love with the Lady Lyanna before he abducted her and before he married her (if that's what he did).

1 hour ago, divica said:

In theory she was safer in an unknow location like the ToJ than in a known garrisson because if robert found her location he would lead his army there to take her.

That doesn't make a lot of sense. For one, Robert only had a strong enough army to do that kind of thing when the armies of the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale had joined him after the Battle of the Bells. And if Rhaegar had dumped Lyanna at Starfall or Oldtown say (with the families of either Arthur Dayne or Gerold Hightower) then she would have been completely out of Robert's reach. Even if a large army had fought their way to those places, she would have still have had ample opportunity to jump a ship.

But then - the best place to keep her safe would have been the citadel of Dragonstone, Rhaegar's own island fortress. The fact that he didn't bring her there and ended up with her in that strange tower is as of yet unexplained.

That makes only sense if we assume that Rhaegar himself had to hide from the wrath of his royal father in the wake of the abduction (and subsequent marriage). If Rhaegar had had no issues with Aerys in the wake of that, there is no reason whatsoever that he couldn't have gone to KL or returned to Dragonstone.

1 hour ago, divica said:

And from what we know of Lyanna what do you think she would do when she found out that her father and brother died because they went to KL looking for her and Ned and Robert are fighting a war because she was kidnapped? I think it is obvious she would ride somewhere and do something! She wouldn t stay at the ToJ knowing what is going on.

That is an important point I've made repeatedly.

Lyanna is a dialed-up version of Arya. She is effectively a Stark princess, completely sure of herself since she doesn't have an older sister outshining her with her beauty and manners. We know that Lyanna Stark doesn't take shit from anyone, not from some squires, and not from her brother(s).

Now, it is very likely that Lyanna was in love with Rhaegar, too, but the chances are that this love soured pretty quickly. If my father-in-law killed my father and brother because of something I and my lover did, my feelings for that lover would change rather dramatically. It would be very difficult to continue to love Rhaegar while hating Aerys. And when Rhaegar then made the call to return to KL, to come to the rescue of his father and crush the rebels - not only Robert but also Ned - one cannot really see Lyanna standing there and admiring Rhaegar for his decision to do his duty there.

One imagines she was very much in opposition to that kind of thing.

And it is not unlikely at all that this effectively marked the end of their relationship. Lyanna could have been little more than a hostage in that tower, a tower where she may have been kept 'for her own good' so that she doesn't interfere with Rhaegar's plans for the rebels.

The fact that Lyanna seems to be still in love with Rhaegar on her deathbed isn't necessarily contradicting such an idea. People usually regret things on their deathbeds (Robert regretted his plans to murder Daenerys; Jeor Mormont forgave Jorah, etc.), and considering that Lyanna likely had learned by then that Rhaegar himself was dead, she may have realized the depth of her love and loss in spite of her anger.

The idea that Lyanna was confined to the tower for months just because she was pregnant makes little sense. And it is not that the castles of the nearest Dornish nobles in the Prince's Pass were that far away. Even a journey to Starfall or one of the loyalist castles in the Reach shouldn't have been that big of a deal around the time Rhaegar left.

But then - the real question is why the hell they were at that stupid tower in the first place. What were they doing there? Hiding? If so, from whom?

And what triggered their decision to go there rather than a proper castle? Were they on the way to some other place and got sidetracked? If so, where did they intend to go originally?

1 hour ago, divica said:

Then you can say may rhaegar may have really kidnapped her and wouldn t let her leave the tower. However, in that scenario he would take her with him to KL and put her in the red keep. The only thing that makes sense is that she can t travel... And as far as I know the dates of when Rhaegar leaves the ToJ and when Ned arrives there are kind of unknown...

We know there are months between Rhaegar's return to KL and the Trident. And we usually believe that Lyanna gave birth to her child shortly before her death, the death being effectively caused by the birth. Do the math. Her pregnancy wouldn't have been very far advanced when Rhaegar left her.

1 hour ago, divica said:

And do you think rhaegar and Lyanna lived alone in the tower? they should have some servants to prepare food and wash clothes and they aren t mentioned either. So if Lyanna is pregnant it isn t strange that rheagar arranged for a maester to be there.

From what we know, no maester was there. And considering that this was a rather small tower - not even a tower house (like Ser Eustace Osgrey's Standfast) but rather a watchtower - it is pretty obvious that this wasn't the place where a noble lady (or princess by marriage/future queen) should deliver her child. It would have been pretty much comparable to the seat of House Baelish as we see it in ASoS.

1 hour ago, divica said:

Finally, he wanted the KG to stay there because they are few of the men totally loyal to the targaryens. If he sent for other soldiers and one of them betrayed the location of Lyanna to robert, rhaegar would lose her. It makes sense to keep everything in secret if Lyanna can t move from there! 

See above. And no, while Rhaegar was still alive and the war undecided no Targaryen soldier would betray Lyanna to Robert. And afterwards three Kingsguard weren't enough to defend Lyanna against seven determined Northmen. A proper garrison could have easily enough dealt with Ned and his companions...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Don't most people define their significant other in singular terms? Like"my lady" or "my girl"? "His lady Lyanna" doesn't really imply it was a one-sided relationship.

There is a certain resemblance to the whole 'my Jenny' thing Georg uses both with Prince Duncan and his Jenny as well as with Dirk t'Larien and Gwen Delvano who, despite Dirk's claims, is not his Jenny.

Now, as things stand Duncan's Jenny was really his Jenny, but whether Lyanna was truly Rhaegar's Lyanna isn't completely certain at this point.

The Lyanna from 'A Song of Lya' wasn't completely Robb's Lya, either, despite the fact that they had passionate sex and a deep connection based on telepathy.

Could be that George is just recycling names here (as he does with R'hllor and Orys, etc.) but the concept of doomed, tragic, and convoluted love triangles is a very common trait in George's work. In that sense, one should only presume to know the full truth about Robert-Lyanna-Rhaegar when the series is finally completed.

In that sense, people claiming to know things about Rhaegar and Lyanna and Robert who don't really know them and their families intimately might not really have the full picture, either.

They might know that there was a wedding and all, but that doesn't mean that they had any firsthand information on the actual feelings and emotions of the people involved.

Note how the singers make Stannis the 'evil uncle' in the songs they sing during Joffrey's wedding. Both Robert's and Rhaegar's fans would have made the Rebellion a war fought for love - but that doesn't mean this is true.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Note how the singers make Stannis the 'evil uncle' in the songs they sing during Joffrey's wedding. Both Robert's and Rhaegar's fans would have made the Rebellion a war fought for love - but that doesn't mean this is true.

 

It doesn't.  However, it gives the room for us, the readers (whom GRRM wants to give the hints to) to think further on, that the elder brother heard singers from both sides.  He acknowledges both Robert and Rhaegar's claim that they are both fighting for the woman they loved.

Up until that chapter of Brienne, we know that Ned does not harbor hatred and anger towards Rhaegar.  We know of Robert's thoughts on Rhaegar and the Targaryens, contrast that of Ned...

“And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?” His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. “I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves.”
Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert’s thirst for revenge, no words of his would help.

In Ned's first chapter, the severity of the promise was amplified to where it's undeniable to the careful reader...

He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes.  

Why such severity?

“Ser Jorah would not dare deceive me,” Varys said with a sly smile. “Rely on it, my lord. The princess is with child.”
“So you say. If you are wrong, we need not fear. If the girl miscarries, we need not fear. If she births a daughter in place of a son, we need not fear. If the babe dies in infancy, we need not fear.”
But if it is a boy?” Robert insisted. “If he lives?

I'm of the opinion, Ned was protecting a royal Targaryen by blood, born from the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  He was protecting the true heir to the throne.  

Edited by IceFire125

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

It doesn't.  However, it gives the room for us, the readers (whom GRRM wants to give the hints to) to think further on, that the elder brother heard singers from both sides.  He acknowledges both Robert and Rhaegar's claim that they are both fighting for the woman they loved.

Still, that doesn't make it true that this was the reason why they fought. People also claim Daemon Blackfyre fought Daeron II for love, too - the love for Daeron's sister, Daenerys, who was married to the Prince of Dorne against her will.

Even if the love stories are true, we don't really know yet how great role that stuff played in the lead-up to the Rebellion or the machinations behind. A throne is a much sweeter price than the love of some woman, and Robert later telling himself he did everything for Lyanna doesn't make it so.

But the fact that love played a role in the motivations of the main players is undoubtedly true. We just don't know yet how important it was.

I'm inclined to believe that Robert would have tried to kill Rhaegar from the moment he learned about the abduction (and subsequent marriage?) but the rebellion against King Aerys may still have only begun as a movement to ensure the survival of the Houses Baratheon and Stark. 

And one wonders whether Aerys would have ever been toppled if Robert had just gone after Rhaegar. He could have approved of all that if Brandon had not gone to KL.

9 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

Up until that chapter of Brienne, we know that Ned does not harbor hatred and anger towards Rhaegar. 

We just know that Ned did not harbor hatred and anger towards Rhaegar in AGoT. He could have felt pretty pissed and angry at some point in the past - as he apparently did at Harrenhal, along with Brandon. Talking to Lyanna in the end could have completely changed his mind on the whole thing, just as he was able to reconciled with Robert again and again (first after Lyanna's death, and then later on after Jaime broke his leg).

We have no reason to believe Ned ever approved of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship or never believed Rhaegar 'raped her'. He could have very much believed that.

9 minutes ago, IceFire125 said:

I'm of the opinion, Ned was protecting a royal Targaryen by blood, born from the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  He was protecting the true heir to the throne.  

There is no reason to believe the boy was seen as 'the true heir to the throne'. It is more than enough that he could have been seen as a legitimate child of Rhaegar (by the people who thought the whole polygamy thing was a 'real and proper marriage'). After all, Princess Rhaenys was slaughtered, too, not just Prince Aegon. The rebels weren't making a difference between male and female Targaryen heirs. They were treating them equally, seeing a danger not only in male but also in female heirs.

But if Rhaegar and Lyanna hadn't been married - or had married only in secret, so that Ned could deal with the knowledge of this happening by simply putting down all the men knowing about it (like he did with the Kingsguard at the tower) - there would be really no good reason for anyone to put down the bastard of a prince. There is no indication Robert was hunting down any bastards Aerys might have fathered on the many mistresses he had. So why should Ned be afraid for the life of Lyanna's son if he had been just been a bastard?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Still, that doesn't make it true that this was the reason why they fought. People also claim Daemon Blackfyre fought Daeron II for love, too - the love for Daeron's sister, Daenerys, who was married to the Prince of Dorne against her will.

Even if the love stories are true, we don't really know yet how great role that stuff played in the lead-up to the Rebellion or the machinations behind. A throne is a much sweeter price than the love of some woman, and Robert later telling himself he did everything for Lyanna doesn't make it so.

But the fact that love played a role in the motivations of the main players is undoubtedly true. We just don't know yet how important it was.

I'm inclined to believe that Robert would have tried to kill Rhaegar from the moment he learned about the abduction (and subsequent marriage?) but the rebellion against King Aerys may still have only begun as a movement to ensure the survival of the Houses Baratheon and Stark. 

And one wonders whether Aerys would have ever been toppled if Robert had just gone after Rhaegar. He could have approved of all that if Brandon had not gone to KL.

We just know that Ned did not harbor hatred and anger towards Rhaegar in AGoT. He could have felt pretty pissed and angry at some point in the past - as he apparently did at Harrenhal, along with Brandon. Talking to Lyanna in the end could have completely changed his mind on the whole thing, just as he was able to reconciled with Robert again and again (first after Lyanna's death, and then later on after Jaime broke his leg).

We have no reason to believe Ned ever approved of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship or never believed Rhaegar 'raped her'. He could have very much believed that.

There is no reason to believe the boy was seen as 'the true heir to the throne'. It is more than enough that he could have been seen as a legitimate child of Rhaegar (by the people who thought the whole polygamy thing was a 'real and proper marriage'). After all, Princess Rhaenys was slaughtered, too, not just Prince Aegon. The rebels weren't making a difference between male and female Targaryen heirs. They were treating them equally, seeing a danger not only in male but also in female heirs.

But if Rhaegar and Lyanna hadn't been married - or had married only in secret, so that Ned could deal with the knowledge of this happening by simply putting down all the men knowing about it (like he did with the Kingsguard at the tower) - there would be really no good reason for anyone to put down the bastard of a prince. There is no indication Robert was hunting down any bastards Aerys might have fathered on the many mistresses he had. So why should Ned be afraid for the life of Lyanna's son if he had been just been a bastard?

It still leaves the possibility open though, and George writes just as much to put the whole "It wasn't a war for Lyanna" to question. And at the very root of it, this seems to be the cause of many of the problems or reasons the war was fought in the first place. Brandon comes to demand his sister, Aerys imprisons him, lets his father know if you want your son, come and get him,they're both killed, Aerys demands the heads of the remaining Stark and Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn refuses to relinquish either boy, his banners are raised and then the war begins.

 

And not everyone believes Illyrio's Aegon is truly Rhaegars son,Tyrion expresses doubt for a time, Jon Connington seemingly raises the issue  of noticing "Aegon's" eyes being a different shade of purple than Rhaegars at a point of disagreement between the two, Doran and Arianne voice their doubts of the boys authenticity. And it's mentioned how Daenaerys may have a stronger claim to the Iron Throne because her identity isn't in question. This of course is raised by Kevan Lannister, however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×