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Ygrain

R+L=J v.165

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19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think Ned found her at the ToJ and I thinks it's a stretch to think that she was hanging onto the Queen of Beauty's laurel.  It's an assumption that Lyanna died as a a result of childbirth and yet we have these passages that suggest she may have died of poison and Robert's allusion to the darkness, poison in the darkness and the sweet smell of death.

It's also possible that Catelyn knows something about Lyanna's death;  after all these years, her throat still constricts (a symptom of poisoning):
 

 

 

 

There's no basis in the books for the crackpots you're pitching.

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1 minute ago, Bael's Bastard said:

There's no basis in the books for the crackpots you're pitching.

There is scant little information about Lyanna or what happened to her.  I'm looking at the text rather than trying to get Jon from A to B to satisfy the romance narrative. 

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18 hours ago, LynnS said:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

 

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her." 

 

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

 


I have the impression that Robert is fishing for information in the above passage. To see if he would get the same story from Ned that he heard 15 years ago. Tell me what you remember, fill in the blanks, what was her name again?  An approach a journalist or police officer might use to test Ned on the original story.  Ned bristles and shuts down the conversation as quickly as possible.  Ned wants Robert off the trail, to think that Jon is a nobody as fast as possible.  I'm not sure that Robert even believes him when he says that it would take some rare women for Ned Stark to lose his honor.  But he lets it go because he won't get anymore information out of Ned.

I'm a little suspicious that Robert wasn't totally ignorant about Jon Arryn's investigation. We are told that both the King and Lysa were in the room when Jon spoke his last words.

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard V
"Was there nothing else? No final words?"
"When I saw that all hope had fled, I gave the Hand the milk of the poppy, so he should not suffer. Just before he closed his eyes for the last time, he whispered something to the king and his lady wife, a blessing for his son. The seed is strong, he said. At the end, his speech was too slurred to comprehend. Death did not come until the next morning, but Lord Jon was at peace after that. He never spoke again."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI

Lysa seated herself near the fire and said, "Come to Mother, my sweet one." She straightened his bedclothes and fussed with his fine brown hair. "Isn't he beautiful? And strong too, don't you believe the things you hear. Jon knew. The seed is strong, he told me. His last words. He kept saying Robert's name, and he grabbed my arm so hard he left marks. Tell them, the seed is strong. His seed. He wanted everyone to know what a good strong boy my baby was going to be."


I have to wonder what Robert would have made of it.   Pycelle thinks the words were a blessing for his son.  Then Robert immediately hightails it to Winterfell.   It's interesting that both Pycelle and Lysa think that Jon Arryn is only talking about one son.
 

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX
"Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it … as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is."

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

 


Robert forgets the women he beds by evenfall.  But Ned's curse is that Robert never forgets Lyanna.   While Robert might forget the women; I'm not sure he forgets the bastards.  He wanted to bring the twins to court; Edric Storm is fostered with his brother; Gendry is hidden but provided for and Mya Stone is essentially a member of House Arryn.


Who asked Jon Arryn to look for his bastards in the first place and is this why Cersei's subterfuge was uncovered?  Accidently? 

I question where Ned finds Lyanna.  Was it in the dungeons of Kingslanding?

 

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I
Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride.

"She was more beautiful than that," the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna's face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. "Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "
She deserved more than darkness …"

 

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

 


A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII
Robert could be merciful. Ser Barristan was scarcely the only man he had pardoned. Grand Maester Pycelle, Varys the Spider, Lord Balon Greyjoy; each had been counted an enemy to Robert once, and each had been welcomed into friendship and allowed to retain honors and office for a pledge of fealty. So long as a man was brave and honest, Robert would treat him with all the honor and respect due a valiant enemy.

This was something else:
poison in the dark, a knife thrust to the soul. This he could never forgive, no more than he had forgiven Rhaegar. He will kill them all, Ned realized.

 


Was Lyanna poisoned by the rose in her hand?

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I
"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from
her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

Storm of Swords - Tyrion X
"We are fond of spears in Dorne. Besides, it is the only way to counter his reach. Have a look, Lord Imp, but see you do not touch." The spear was turned ash eight feet long, the shaft smooth, thick, and heavy. The last two feet of that was steel: a slender leaf-shaped spearhead narrowing to a wicked spike. The edges looked sharp enough to shave with. When Oberyn spun the haft between
the palms of his hand, they glistened black. Oil? Or poison? Tyrion decided that he would sooner not know. "I hope you are good with that," he said doubtfully.


 

 

I enjoy all your posts, so don't get me wrong here. But there is really no basis in the text for what you're throwing at the board, here. Here's some easy counters to the bolded parts.

 

- "She deserved more than darkness", it's quite obvious that Robert is referring to the damp, dark, crypts of Winterfell. Robert doesn't feel she should've been placed there based on his fantasized view of Lyanna that he's developed in his head ever since she left him, or was taken. Same for the "wash her clean" statement, the sun beating on her gravestone, washing her in sunlight and glory for eternities to come. It's quite obvious that's what he was referring to here, and what George meant, hence right before that he says "did you have to bury her in a place like this?". I don't think theres any way that George was implying that Ned found Lyanna in dungeons in KL, and that any other perceived meaning is wishful thinking. But she's Neds flesh and blood, she has no relation to Robert, so Ned wanted his sister in the crypts with her family where he feels she belongs. And Ned was with her when she died, he tells Robert that Lyanna wanted to come home to rest beside Brandon and her father, and he can still hear her at times, "Promise me, Ned. Promise me." And again here "They had found him, still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogmen, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his."...If she was found in a dungeon, I think a lot more would be written about those circumstances, and it'd probably be a lot different from this.

 

- "Poison in the dark", again that whole sentence, the context and meaning is clear. George is stating through Ned that Lyanna's abduction, the fact that he never got to marry her and live out his idealized life with her, because she was "taken from him, and supposedly degraded by this other man,  festered within and hurt Robert to the point where it was like a death kneel to him. For this reason Robert will never give up his grudge with Rhaegar or the Targaryen family, and won't stop until they're completely wiped out and made into only memories, leaving no chance at peace for this House, whom supposedly did him so wrong, by taking away his beloved Lyanna from him.

 

- "The rose petals spilling from her hand, dead and black." C'mon, poison isn't the implication here. What color do leaves and flowers turn when they die? They turn black.

Theres scant information on what happened to Lyanna and her relationship with Rhaegar, but I think it's more than enough text in all of the novels, to make Ned finally coming into contact with her sister, at the Tower Of Joy, in a bed, dying from loss of blood due to childbirth, and not in some dungeon cell in Kings Landing, dying of poison, more than a fact than anything else.

On another note, it's obvious at least to me, that what Ran is saying is the case from the text we're given. Robert never wanted to be king, it's said numerous times from him and those close to him that he was never fit for rule. He DIDN'T make a formal complaint to the crown until the Trident, a crown wasn't his main goal here, or the real reason for his rebellion. It's Lyanna he agonized for and over throughout the entire conflict, not a crown. Even years later when he was reunited again, since Balon's rebellion, he still dreamt and agonized over this women, as his conversations with Ned show, every time they're discussing Targaryens and as Cersei lets us know, through her conflict with Ned.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

And yet per GRRM, Robert didn't make a formal claim to the crown until somewhere around the Trident, and Robert himself speaks that during the rebellion he prayed for Lyanna to be restored to him, not for a crown:

Yes it was  "formal" as in he made it official then. Which doesn't change the intent for which he and Ned went to war in the first place.It just wasn't known to all but inner circle.

Per Robert's prayer, him praying for Lyanna's safe return doesn't mean she was the reason they went to war.It just means what he said, he prayed for her return.

But not from him or Ned was it given that the reason for why they did what did was anything other than

1.Saving babies from Targs

2. Winning a throne

It didn't say who was going to sit it,only it being the objective.

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't think Ned found her at the ToJ and I thinks it's a stretch to think that she was hanging onto the Queen of Beauty's laurel.  It's an assumption that Lyanna died as a a result of childbirth and yet we have these passages that suggest she may have died of poison and Robert's allusion to the darkness, poison in the darkness and the sweet smell of death.

2

Why doubt that he found at the Tower of Joy?

I think it's no more of a stretch to say she still had the laurel than to say that she was poisoned. Though you highlighted the supposed evidence for it, I really cannot see the connections you are making -- especially the use of the Cat quote. I'm sorry, no.
 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

Stannis went to Jon Arryn with his suspicions because he didn't think Robert would believe him. But I don't remember that we are ever given why he started suspecting.

Is that how it happened? I knew they were investigating it together but I forgot that Stannis initiated it.
 

1 hour ago, Widow's Watch said:

This might be the whole reason for the Ashara story that Catelyn and Cersei heard, in case the baby turned up with purple eyes and some variance of blond hair.

Fair point. Ned didn't want anyone at Winterfell to nitter-natter about Jon but out in the big-wide-world the Ashara rumour was useful had Jon's colouring been blond-and-purple-eyed.

It is interesting that there are two or three versions of the story circulating. Ashara, Wylla, Fisherman's daughter... wonder if we'll get any more.
 

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I tend to lean toward the idea that Robert suspected or knew there was more to Rhaegar/Lyanna than what seems to have been the official story during his reign. Why would Robert think that Rhaegar "has Lyanna now" a decade and a half after their deaths, or at any point after their deaths?

Oh, I always thought so too.

You can understand why he was in denial because after all these years the way he lost her, this woman he'd idealised, was awful from his point of view. He spent the next 15 years drinking himself blind. Guy always seems to have like his food, drink and women but he let those lusts consume him he was so unhappy.

The idea that she might have willingly run off with another man is just another dagger in his heart. 

Edited by Faera

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40 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

I enjoy all your posts, so don't get me wrong here. But there is really no basis in the text for what you're throwing at the board, here. Here's some easy counters to the bolded parts.

 

To each his own.  I think the reference to black hands in both Ned's recollection and Tyrion's observation about Oberyn is enough to question whether a rose was used to deliver a poison.  Robert is of course expressing dismay at where Lyanna is buried; perhaps something of an old wound if she was also found in a dark cell.  It's not just Rhaegar's part in Lyanna's disapearance that Robert can't forgive; it's the poison in the dark.  Add to that Catelyn's visceral reaction to thoughts of Lyanna where her throats constricts and c'mon; why are we being told these things?

This isn't throwing things at the Board.  Ran or someone said that we didn't really know how much Robert knew about Lyanna and I went back to the text.  So take it or leave it really.    Much has been made of RLJ with very little.  I'm not consensus driven, nor am I persuaded by the appeal to authority.

If Robert knew that Lyanna was at the ToJ; he most certainly would have gone himself to collect her.      

  

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13 minutes ago, Faera said:

Why doubt that he found at the Tower of Joy?

I think I've said a number of times that if anyone was being guarded at the ToJ; it's likely to be Rhaegar's son Aegon and possibly the reason that Ned and Robert had a big blow-out before going off to meet the KG.  I just don't believe that Rhaegar wouldn't have taken steps to secure the safety of the all important PwiP.

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Yeah, in no way do I believe that bolded text is a reference to poison or her being found anywhere else. I already posted my interpretations for them, so I guess that's already known and not needed again.  In the case of Oberyn, again, its clear to me, one is a case of poison, and the other isn't, they come at points far enough away from each other in the timeline that I don't even believe that George wrote that as a comparison of situations, they're two distinct unrelated events. Same with Robert and the "poison in the dark", it's a metaphor for how he took the reality of the losing Lyanna, its simple enough and not an accusation of literal poison.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I don't know, either - we have indeed speculated here that, being a squire, he may have been younger than the others and therefore "mercifully" kept alive in the Black Cells; or perhaps lord Glover didn't arrive in KL prior the Rebellion broke out and Aerys was waiting to get hold of him later to execute both father and son like he did with the rest. Either way, there is some piece of information missing - if Ethan was released, then why did he get that extra treatment? And if he had been kept prisoner throughout the whole rebellion, then why did Ned drag him along for the trip? It's not like one man in a poor shape after a year's imprisonment could make a difference in his small entourage.

The black cells are for dangerous prisoners or people expecting execution. They are not for youths that have been pardoned. If Aerys chose to spare Ethan's life he wouldn't have been spent the Rebellion in a black cell.

If he was imprisoned for the entire war and dragged along by Ned in the end it is pretty clear that he wouldn't have been in that bad a shape, would he? He was strong enough to face three Kingsguard in battle, after all.

We also have no reason to believe Aerys through Brandon and company in black cells before he executed them all. They were noblemen and those are usually not thrown in those cells. Now, he could still have thrown them there, of course, but if he did we don't know that as of yet.

4 hours ago, Ran said:

And yet per GRRM, Robert didn't make a formal claim to the crown until somewhere around the Trident, and Robert himself speaks that during the rebellion he prayed for Lyanna to be restored to him, not for a crown:

That indicates that Aerys was never a priority for Robert during the war, at least not until around the Trident. His issues were with Rhaegar, not Aerys. He wanted Lyanna back and see Rhaegar die. The crown was something that came up when they realized they had the strength to topple Aerys, and would be forced to do that, presumably.

Still, the lords would have been aware who Robert was - the grandson of a royal princess, and the great-grandson of a king - and that most likely played no insignificant role when men flocked to his banner. You can be a great warrior and general all day long, but if you also have a pretty strong claim to a throne people may think sucking up to this guy might look promising.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

 

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her." 

 

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

 


I have the impression that Robert is fishing for information in the above passage. To see if he would get the same story from Ned that he heard 15 years ago. Tell me what you remember, fill in the blanks, what was her name again?  An approach a journalist or police officer might use to test Ned on the original story.  Ned bristles and shuts down the conversation as quickly as possible.  Ned wants Robert off the trail, to think that Jon is a nobody as fast as possible.  I'm not sure that Robert even believes him when he says that it would take some rare women for Ned Stark to lose his honor.  But he lets it go because he won't get anymore information out of Ned.

I tossed around that idea once, too. Robert brings up Ned's bastard and then talks about the topic he wanted to talk about the entire time - Daenerys Targaryen and her marriage to Khal Drogo. If Robert suspected that Ned's bastard was actually Rhaegar's son by Lyanna it would make sense to combine those two topics in conversation and closely watch Ned's reaction.

It is likely that the whole think is just innocent talk on Robert's part but it could be more. And since we actually know that Robert is a coward at hard, taking the easy way out rather than facing a hard truth, it is pretty clear that he would actually prefer not to slay Lyanna's son and Ned's nephew if he has any other choice.

3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

@Ran @Ygrain

There is still so much we don't know about the nature of the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar, particularly from the lead up to Harrenhal until he left for the Trident. We are led to believe that at times Aerys was distrustful of Rhaegar and his intentions toward himself, while at other times he seems to have depended on and put his trust in Rhaegar. I have suspected that Aerys, being crazy, might have just gone back and forth between suspecting and trusting Rhaegar between Harrenhal and the Trident, unless their relationship was not as up and down as the possibly-distorted or misremembered accounts we have might lead us to believe.

It is pretty clear that Rhaegar and Aerys must have had a huge fallout or else Rhaegar would simply have returned to Dragonstone with Lyanna, or he would have taken her to KL. There is no reason for the Prince of Dragonstone to hide like a common criminal or outlaw, none at all. If Rhaegar had a choice when he made the call to go underground then he would be essentially even madder than Aerys. There would be absolutely no rational justification for this dereliction of duty. Not when the Rebellion began. And even prior to that it would have been insane to not do anything in his power to smooth out the Lyanna affair with both Aerys, the Faith, and the Starks.

The impression we get in TWoIaF is that Aerys was very proud of his son and heir until Duskendale cast a shadow on their relationship. When Rhaegar showed his skills at the Lannisport tourney after Viserys' birth Aerys publicly rejoiced. There is no hint of jealousy or suspicion back then.

It is only Tywin's words at Duskendale and Aerys' subsequent paranoia and increasing madness that cloud the relationship.

Vice versa, it is pretty obvious that Rhaegar must have loved his father - or at least the man he once was. Else he would have moved against him much earlier, and he wouldn't have had many second thoughts about the prospect of actually murdering his father. For the good of the Realm, of course.

The fact that they end up working together despite the fact what Aerys did to the Starks pretty much shows that the bond between father and son was never completely severed and eventually repaired.

Quote

But if there was as much distrust as we are led to believe, then Aerys might not have considered Rhaegar's possession of Lyanna as necessarily being the same as himself or House Targaryen being in possession of Lyanna, even if Rhaegar was still essentially keeping Lyanna out of rebel hands. If Aerys was not in any way involved with the abduction he could have taken offense to Rhaegar's actions re: Lyanna. In a case where Rhaegar was not acting on Aerys's orders or with his knowledge, and he was as in the dark as the rebels about Rhaegar's intentions, I just don't see how a person as vindictive as Aerys, however crazy he may have been, would know where Lyanna was but not want to take possession of/kill her.

Once Aerys had Rhaegar himself - and he did have Rhaegar himself after his return to court - he essentially also had Lyanna. If Aerys was obsessed with Lyanna he could have handed Rhaegar to his torturers or he could have burned him alive if Rhaegar had refused to reveal her location (unless Aerys didn't already know where she was). Or he could have forced Rhaegar to tell him the truth by threatening the lives of Elia and the children. 

The idea that Aerys was interested or cared much about Lyanna is very unlikely.

And as Ran has already said - they were well passed hostages at that point. Aerys and Rhaegar both intended to crush the rebels. Nobody was interested in negotiations or threats. And we all know that female hostages aren't worth that much, anyway. Pretty much nobody cared that the Lannisters had Sansa. Even male hostages can be useless as Jaime proved while he was Robb's prisoner.

1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I tend to lean toward the idea that Robert suspected or knew there was more to Rhaegar/Lyanna than what seems to have been the official story during his reign. Why would Robert think that Rhaegar "has Lyanna now" a decade and a half after their deaths, or at any point after their deaths? Just because they were both dead? Lots of people died during that stretch of time. If Robert really wanted to have Lyanna, and really thought that all it would take to "have her" would be to be dead like Rhaegar, he presumably would have instigated his own death many years earlier.

That is an odd argument. You don't kill yourself to be with another person unless you are suffering from depression. Especially not if you have no proof that there is an afterlife. Robert is talking about the afterlife only on his deathbed.

And rape and love work fine in this world. In Robert's mind, Rhaegar could have loved Lyanna and raped her. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

 

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think I've said a number of times that if anyone was being guarded at the ToJ; it's likely to be Rhaegar's son Aegon and possibly the reason that Ned and Robert had a big blow-out before going off to meet the KG.  I just don't believe that Rhaegar wouldn't have taken steps to secure the safety of the all important PwiP.

Except that Ned believes that Aegon is dead, so it doesn't fit.

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15 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm a little suspicious that Robert wasn't totally ignorant about Jon Arryn's investigation.

He was, Robert was ignorant to almost anything in court and in his life. Last year, in one of his cons, George was asked if Robert suspected that Cersei's children weren't his, and George's response was that "Robert wasn't a real intellectual giant". Through Renly George also stated that Robert was not wise, he was strong, but not wise. So you have a man that is not wise, nor smart, he can only resolve his problems with violence, what does that make him? ignorant.

At court, Robert found himself far away from his natural habitat. Thinking about it, Jon Arryn was a wizard, Robert should not be capable of survive 14 years in King's Landing, but Arryn made that possible.

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1 hour ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

 

At court, Robert found himself far away from his natural habitat. Thinking about it, Jon Arryn was a wizard, Robert should not be capable of survive 14 years in King's Landing, but Arryn made that possible.

Well, he was no mad scientist and there was much that he didn't bother about but I don't think he was totally ignorant.

Is this your website?

https://www.evilmadscientist.com/ 

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is an odd argument. You don't kill yourself to be with another person unless you are suffering from depression. Especially not if you have no proof that there is an afterlife. Robert is talking about the afterlife only on his deathbed.

And rape and love work fine in this world. In Robert's mind, Rhaegar could have loved Lyanna and raped her. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

Robert is a mess by the time we meet him. But I am not suggesting he should have wanted to kill himself. I am saying that his statement indicates to me that Robert understood that there was more to the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna than the "how many hundreds of times did he rape her?" narrative, and seems to believe that there were reunited in death. While, as for himself, other than saying  HAI to her for Ned, he doesn't sound like he believes he will be united or reunited with her in death as he had intended to be in life. That is the point. And no, he doesn't say this on his deathbed, but in the chapter with Ned's milk of the poppy dream. 

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20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well, he was no mad scientist and there was much that he didn't bother about but I don't think he was totally ignorant.

Probably not. 

Quote

"Let me tell you a secret, Ned. More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. Take a ship for the Free Cities with my horse and my hammer, spend my time warring and whoring, that's what I was made for. The sellsword king, how the singers would love me. You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear. My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?(Eddard VII, AGOT 30)

Quote

Ned Stark grimaced. Ugly tales like that were told of every great lord in the realm. He could believe it of Cersei Lannister readily enough . . . but would the king stand by and let it happen? The Robert he had known would not have, but the Robert he had known had never been so practiced at shutting his eyes to things he did not wish to see. (Eddard IX, Game 35)

It's possible that Robert had a quick fleeting thought about Joffrey. He never pursued anything, so either he dismissed it or chose not to pursue it because that kind of truth really hurts. 

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3 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Robert is a mess by the time we meet him. But I am not suggesting he should have wanted to kill himself. I am saying that his statement indicates to me that Robert understood that there was more to the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna than the "how many hundreds of times did he rape her?" narrative, and seems to believe that there were reunited in death. While, as for himself, other than saying  HAI to her for Ned, he doesn't sound like he believes he will be united or reunited with her in death as he had intended to be in life. That is the point. And no, he doesn't say this on his deathbed, but in the chapter with Ned's milk of the poppy dream.

And this has always stuck with me. The whole Rhaegar won, he has Lyanna now, has always been a powerful statement for me in that these two people are together in whatever afterlife there is. For all the things he has been accused of by Robert, Rhaegar should be rotting in some hell. But instead, he won, and he is with Lyanna.

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39 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

And this has always stuck with me. The whole Rhaegar won, he has Lyanna now, has always been a powerful statement for me in that these two people are together in whatever afterlife there is. For all the things he has been accused of by Robert, Rhaegar should be rotting in some hell. But instead, he won, and he is with Lyanna.

I don't think Robert knew the truth about Lyanna. Ned says he lied to him and hid the truth, failed him in some way.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

He found himself thinking of Robert more and more. He saw the king as he had been in the flower of his youth, tall and handsome, his great antlered helm on his head, his warhammer in hand, sitting his horse like a horned god. He heard his laughter in the dark, saw his eyes, blue and clear as mountain lakes. "Look at us, Ned," Robert said. "Gods, how did we come to this? You here, and me killed by a pig. We won a throne together …"

I failed you, Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you.

 

Robert believes the stories and the songs but he doesn't have the truth.  Ned could only have failed him if he was withholding information that was in Robert's interests.  Further, when Ned refers to the crown of roses, he calls it the "queen of beauty's laurel".  That's a specific word choice omitting 'love' in the title.   So I take that to mean that whatever Rhaegar's purpose it wasn't because he was smitten with her.

I'm inclined to think that Rhaegar knew something of Lyanna's destiny and that his time spent at Summerhall had more to do with trading songs for dreams with the GoHH.  The reason that he declares Aegon the PwiP rather than himself.  It seems to me that by all accounts Rhaegar was a stand-up ruler in waiting who wanted to restore the realm to peace, prosperity and justice.  Whatever, the real story is behind Lyanna's disappearance or Rhaegar's involvement in it; I don't think it involved betraying his wife and children.

In the end Robert is something of a maudlin character forever obsessed with losing Lyanna and laying the blame at Rhaegar's feet.       

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10 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think Robert knew the truth about Lyanna. Ned says he lied to him and hid the truth, failed him in some way.

The quote you're pointing to about Ned lying to Robert has nothing to do with Lyanna or Rhaegar. Ned didn't tell Robert anything about the dagger, he didn't tell him he suspected foul play with Jon Arryn and was investigating his death. If Ned had told Robert his suspicions, maybe Robert would have had Cersei arrested right away while there was investigation. If Ned had told Robert of his suspicions, would Robert had kept Lancel as his squire? Robert has no way of protecting himself if he's kept in the dark.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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46 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

For all the things he has been accused of by Robert, Rhaegar should be rotting in some hell. But instead, he won, and he is with Lyanna.

This is so ironic, Robert not only lost the girl, but he also had to take Rhaegar's position as Aerys's successor. Robert now needs to rule, something that Rhaegar most certainly would not want to do if he ever had a choice, and what's worse, Robert ends up married to Cersei who refuses to have any children with him because of how he is.

Robert is rejected left and right, he wins, and then he realises he lost, and he lost so much more than he won. Despite his ability in making "friends" easily, that was only useful during the rebellion, because when he died, it was clear that Ned was the only friend he had.

After writing this, I feel bad for the guy now, he is no saint, but it seems that everytime he finds someone he likes, they reject him, and to make things even more curious, it is always his fault that they reject him. Robert is probably George's most realistic character.

 

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12 minutes ago, Widow's Watch said:

The quote you're pointing to about Ned lying to Robert has nothing to do with Lyanna or Rhaegar. Ned didn't tell Robert anything about the dagger, he didn't tell him he suspected foul play with Jon Arryn and was investigating his death. If Ned had told Robert his suspicions, maybe Robert would have had Cersei arrested right away while there was investigation. If Ned had told Robert of his suspicions, would Robert had kept Lancel as his squire? Robert has no way of protecting himself if he's kept in the dark.

Ned was about to tell Robert everything before he was killed.  He even went so far as to warn Cersei.  So he wasn't keeping that information from him.

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