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Ygrain

R+L=J v.165

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't think Robert knew the truth about Lyanna. Ned says he lied to him and hid the truth, failed him in some way.

Ned's failures are pretty much Robert's own death and the fact that he was unable to protect Robert's bastards.

As for the truth about Rhaegar and Lyanna, Ned would take that to the grave, the last thing he would ever do is tell the truth about Lyanna to Robert. Robert is trapped in an illusion of his idealised Lyanna, he doesn't know about the Lyanna who showed him the middle finger and run away with Rhaegar, which in turn made Robert put his life on the line when he rebelled. Robert would hate Lyanna as much as Rhaegar if he ever found out what really happened, and Ned who kept this secret well hidden for such a long time would no doubt suffer the consequences as well. If Elia and Cersei's children are not immune to Robert's rage when they did nothing to him, then Ned(an adult) is not immune as well when he clearly lied to Robert about the fact that his sister didn't want anything with him.

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

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16 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

I tend to lean toward the idea that Robert suspected or knew there was more to Rhaegar/Lyanna than what seems to have been the official story during his reign. Why would Robert think that Rhaegar "has Lyanna now" a decade and a half after their deaths, or at any point after their deaths? Just because they were both dead? Lots of people died during that stretch of time. If Robert really wanted to have Lyanna, and really thought that all it would take to "have her" would be to be dead like Rhaegar, he presumably would have instigated his own death many years earlier.

This is an idea with evidence where? This is something answered with the simplest explanation of human behavior.

Let's look at it from Robert's point of view. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna his bethrothed despite his own wife being present.Then at some point he heard Rhaegar had Lyanna and then she ends up dead.What is the natural thought for him?

To put that in a mordern context some dude gives your fiance a rose,and you hear later that said dude has your fiance.No man on earth past present or future is going to think this guy kidnapped his fiance to play "Chutes and Ladder." First thought is "The things he's probably doing to her."Everyman is going to think their fiance is being raped.

 

Now let's add something a bit different.Let's say Chris Hemsworth gave your fiance a rose ;later on you hear Chris Hemsworth had your fiance.As much as you would want to believe your fiance would be faithful, its Chris Hemsworth.Somewhere deep in your mind ,on some level your going to be thinking your fiance ran off with Chris Hemsworth.

What's the problem with this thinking? You assume like most men that the only reason Chris Hemsworth is with your fiance is he wants to knock boots with your fiance. You also assume that "because" its Chris Hemsworth your wife is going to capitulate because its Chris Hemsworth.Next issue is everyone is going to think as you do because its Chris Hemsworth.

Rhaegar,though not as manly is Westrosi Chris Hemsworth. As Jon Conn said and i paraphrase every woman would drop draws for Rhaegar, and everyman wanted to be him.Which could never be true,that's a fallacy.

We see there are two prevailing thoughts after the Rebellion.Those  who believe Rhaegar must haved raped her and others who think she ran off with Rhaegar.

There is no CSI in Westeros, so unless someone examined Lyanna's body before Ned turned it to bones for transport:that thought about the rape is just conjecture based on;why else would Rhaegar have taken her if not to rape her? The Knave.

So to is the second thought held by people like Cersie ,Kevin and even Selmy.Rhaegar to them was looked at differently.He was dashing in some cases, honorable in others so rape would never be something he would do.Therefore,it must be love.And Ofcorse Lyanna must have fallen for him to who wouldn't..Its Rhaegar.

Lastly, we need to watch Robert's wording " How many times do you think Rhaegar raped your sister,how many hundreds of time."

That is not a statement of fact by Robert,this should be stressed.It is NOT a statement of fact, it is him expressing what any man would think.His fear of what MAY of happened became in the minds of some what possibly happened." I'm sure that sob raped her over and over again."

Then we have Robert's statement that "Rhaegar has Lyanna now and he has Cersie"

That could be looked at this way, and it goes back to my second example.Its normal for anyman ,including Robert to have doubts.Especially,if there is another tale that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. But like the story of the rape, it to is based on no evidence other than a bias view of some who were whammied by Prince Rhaegar.

The reality of it is that on HIS death bed he told Ned " I will give Lyanna your love." So there was an expectation by him that he would be with her again in death.

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28 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Ned's failures are pretty much Robert's own death and the fact that he was unable to protect Robert's bastards.

As for the truth about Rhaegar and Lyanna, Ned would take that to the grave, the last thing he would ever do is tell the truth about Lyanna to Robert. Robert is trapped in an illusion of his idealised Lyanna, he doesn't know about the Lyanna who showed him the middle finger and run away with Rhaegar, which in turn made Robert put his life on the line when he rebelled. Robert would hate Lyanna as much as Rhaegar if he ever found out what really happened, and Ned who kept this secret well hidden for such a long time would no doubt suffer the consequences as well. If Elia and Cersei's children are not immune to Robert's rage when they did nothing to him, then Ned(an adult) is not immune as well when he clearly lied to Robert about the fact that his sister didn't want anything with him.

Where is this written and how does it make sense? If this is true, the best thig for Ned to do IS to tell the truth.Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead what's Robert going to do? Pee on their graves? Robert would have closure ,better that than having Robert believe that Rhaegar did something to Lyanna against her will.

He wouldn't hate Lyanna as much as Rhaegar and if he did so what they'd both be dead and again it does more harm than good keeping a hypothethical truth that would help Robert move on.

And what secret is Ned keeping? By claiming Jon as his son, he is in effect keeping no secret.Doing that alone covers Jon. Robert did nothing "to" Elia and her kids.He didn't bat an eye when Tywin had them killed.That's it.

Lastly, where are you getting that Lyanna wanted nothing to do with Robert? Give me a text or inference to that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by wolfmaid7

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18 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The reality of it is that on HIS death bed he told Ned " I will give Lyanna your love." So there was an expectation by him that he would be with her again in death.

The singers also make much of the romantic tale.  This is their stock and trade and they are invested in pleasing an audience. How many times are we told that songs don't reflect reality.  They are used for propaganda by House Tyrell:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one. I took an arrow through the thigh and another through the foot, and my horse was killed from under me, yet I fought on. I can still remember how desperate I was to find another horse, for I had no coin to buy one, and without a horse I would no longer be a knight. That was all that I was thinking of, if truth be told. I never saw the blow that felled me. I heard hooves behind my back and thought, a horse! but before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned.

Can you believe everything you read in the news?  The singers give the sanitized version.

Edited by LynnS

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8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The singers also make much of the romantic tale.  This is their stock and trade and they are invested in pleasing an audience. How many times are we told that songs don't reflect reality.  They are used for propaganda by House Tyrell:

Can you believe everything you read in the news?  The singers give the sanitized version.

Word! It would sell more gigs...Heck,i would book them for a party or two.Riveting stuff.

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16 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think I've said a number of times that if anyone was being guarded at the ToJ; it's likely to be Rhaegar's son Aegon and possibly the reason that Ned and Robert had a big blow-out before going off to meet the KG.  I just don't believe that Rhaegar wouldn't have taken steps to secure the safety of the all important PwiP.

1

(I cannot tell you how many times this post ate itself so I will be brief now.)

Okay...

Why didn't Rhaegar secure the safety of Elia and, at the very least, Rhaenys at the same time he (or presumably Varys) moved Aegon?

Why of all places would Rhaegar leave his son in the Tower of Joy? Seems unnecessary.

Why didn't Rhaegar secretly leave Aegon with Doran, the Prince of Dorne, his brother-in-law and the boy's own uncle?

Why didn't the KG try to secure Aegon's safety after the Sack of King's Landing? (It's not like he's, say, a heavily pregnant woman who could go into labour at any moment - he's a toddler! Everyone thought Aegon was dead anyway so those few weeks after the Sack was the perfect time to sneak him off somewhere safer but instead they... stand around the ToJ like a bunch of numpties just waiting to be discovered? Did Rhaegar really not leave them with a contingency plan in case he didn't come back?)

How did Varys end up with Aegon if Ned got to the Tower first?

And finally, what's the point of all this misdirection other than it being a "twist" for the sake of it?

Now, I'm sure you can come up with answers to all my questions; the point is that if people have to squint this hard to see the same pattern you see, it probably isn't really there. This idea opens up too many leaps in logic, conflicts with what little previously established facts we have been given about the Tower of Joy, and relies on these random quotes taken out of context. The only thing all of this would be building up to is one big and unsatisfying exposition dump...

...poor ol' Howland will have enough to reveal when he turns up without all this woo going on!

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Except that Ned believes that Aegon is dead, so it doesn't fit.

This too. If Aegon was in the Tower, the Ned would obviously know and presumably be complicit with a plot to help him escape despite never making any indication he did any such thing. 

16 hours ago, LynnS said:

If Robert knew that Lyanna was at the ToJ; he most certainly would have gone himself to collect her.      

 

We don't even know how or when Ned found out where Lyanna was. There's a possibility Ned set off to find Lyanna without even telling Robert. They had fallen out, after all.

Edited by Faera

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7 minutes ago, Faera said:

Why didn't Rhaegar secure the safety of Elia and, at the very least, Rhaenys at the same time he (or presumably Varys) moved Aegon?

Why of all places would Rhaegar leave his son in the Tower of Joy? Seems unnecessary.

Why didn't Rhaegar secretly leave Aegon with Doran, the Prince of Dorne, his brother-in-law and the boy's own uncle?

Why didn't the KG try to secure Aegon's safety after the Sack of King's Landing? (It's not like he's, say, a heavily pregnant woman who could go into labour at any moment - he's a toddler! Everyone thought Aegon was dead anyway so those few weeks after the Sack was the perfect time to sneak him off somewhere safer but instead they... stand around the ToJ like a bunch of numpties just waiting to be discovered? Did Rhaegar really not leave them with a contingency plan in case he didn't come back?)

How did Varys end up with Aegon if Ned got to the Tower first?

And finally, what's the point of all this misdirection other than it being a "twist" for the sake of it?

Now, I'm sure you can come up with answers to all my questions; the point is that if people have to squint this hard to see the same pattern you see, it probably isn't really there. This idea opens up too many leaps in logic, conflicts with what little previously established facts we have been given about the Tower of Joy, and relies on these random quotes taken out of context. The only thing all of this would be building up to is one big and unsatisfying exposition dump...

Elia was kept as surety for Rhaegar's loyalty.

We don't that anyone was in the ToJ at all.

There is every possibility that Rhaegar took steps to remove his son from KL and hide him.

Please don't address me in such a condescending manner.  You don't have the answers and neither do I.  I don't subscribe to the romantic version of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  It's way too over the top.   

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39 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Where is this written and how does it make sense? If this is true, the best thig for Ned to do IS to tell the truth.Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead what's Robert going to do?

I don't know, i'm sure Robert will be nice to Ned for hiding something like that from him for so long.

Ned clearly feared Robert in the first book, you can see it when he resigned as hand of the king, but he still tried his best to walk a fine line.

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

He wouldn't hate Lyanna as much as Rhaegar and if he did so what they'd both be dead and again it does more harm than good keeping a hypothethical truth that would help Robert move on.

Try telling that to a man that blamed two kids(including an infant) for being the son of the wrong man. For Robert is pretty simple, if he discovers what happened, he won't hate one more than the other, the hate will be the same for both, Lyanna won't be hated more or less, she will be hated with as much passion as Rhaegar, because as far as Robert knows, he "bought" her fair and square, and she is Ned's sister, she should keep her word no? after all those years of suffering, to learn that everything was a lie and she did not kept her word and run away with the man he hates the most, not in a hundread years he will take that lightly, this is Robert Baratheon.

 

49 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Robert did nothing "to" Elia and her kids.He didn't bat an eye when Tywin had them killed.That's it.

Precisely, that's why Ned tried to be merciful with Cersei's children, because he knew Robert would have them killed and would not bat an eye.

Let's not kid ourselves, Elia and her children were killed in Robert's name, and he accepted it, going as far as to reward Tywin with a royal marriage. If someone murders a person in your name and you accept it, then you effectively is to blame for that person's murder as well, and again, that's why Ned showed mercy to Cersei's children.

 

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The reality of it is that on HIS death bed he told Ned " I will give Lyanna your love." So there was an expectation by him that he would be with her again in death.

One of the things that bothers me most in this series is how Robert can be in love for so long with someone he doesn't even know? He needed Ned to tell him what Lyanna would say if he tried to make a fool of himself by trying to enter in the tourney and compete against the young knights. And Ned's response was quite generous actually, because Lyanna was quite the foulmouthed with Benjen when they were fighting with wooden branches. She was as wild as Arya.

 

 

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19 hours ago, LynnS said:

Please don't address me in such a condescending manner.  You don't have the answers and neither do I.  I don't subscribe to the romantic version of Rhaegar and Lyanna.  It's way too over the top.   

 

I'm very sorry if I came across that way, it wasn't my intention.

I'm neither invested nor do I particularly care about "the romantic version" of Rhaegar and Lyanna. The man was married with kids and ran off with a sixteen-year-old betrothed to another man, starting a chain of events that ignited a war with people who could have been his allies against his father. It is hard to see the romance in that.

18 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

One of the things that bothers me most in this series is how Robert can be in love for so long with someone he doesn't even know? He needed Ned to tell him what Lyanna would say if he tried to make a fool of himself by trying to enter in the tourney and compete against the young knights. And Ned's response was quite generous actually, because Lyanna was quite the foulmouthed with Benjen when they were fighting with wooden branches. She was as wild as Arya.

2

I suppose a large part of it was Robert idealising Lyanna to an impossible degree after fifteen years of an unhappy life. Ned says that Robert didn't really know Lyanna and simply “saw her beauty” but it is almost possible that he’s also conveniently forgotten any traits about Lyanna that might have irked him. It isn’t about who Lyanna really was anymore — it’s what she represents. She’s the life he feels he lost out on. It is even sadder because as a reader I very much doubt marriage to Lyanna would have been as happy as he thinks it would.

Actually, Lyanna's "wildness" has always been a curiosity of mine. 

Personally, I've pondered for a bit now why Lyanna was so close to Harrenhal when Rhaegar nabbed her. Presumably, the reason she was in the Riverlands was to attend Brandon and Catelyn's wedding. I'm guessing she'd have been travelling on the Kingsroad yet Harrenhal is south-east of Riverrun and, if she was travelling from Winterfell (Also, why not go with Brandon?) or even from the Vale (Again, if she was visiting Ned and Robert in the Vale why not travel with Ned to the wedding?), her party would have missed the River Road turn-off... so, what gives? Was she travelling from the south (If so, why was she in the south?), from Harrenhal itself (Visiting a friend, maybe? Could Howland still have been studying on the Isle of Faces?), or did she detour for some other reason that may have had nothing to do with Rhaegar? Maybe I am over thinking it but it still feels odd. She must have been travelling with an escort so she presumably had some legitimate reason to be there.

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21 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

I don't know, i'm sure Robert will be nice to Ned for hiding something like that from him for so long.

Ned clearly feared Robert in the first book, you can see it when he resigned as hand of the king, but he still tried his best to walk a fine line.

Try telling that to a man that blamed two kids(including an infant) for being the son of the wrong man. For Robert is pretty simple, if he discovers what happened, he won't hate one more than the other, the hate will be the same for both, Lyanna won't be hated more or less, she will be hated with as much passion as Rhaegar, because as far as Robert knows, he "bought" her fair and square, and she is Ned's sister, she should keep her word no? after all those years of suffering, to learn that everything was a lie and she did not kept her word and run away with the man he hates the most, not in a hundread years he will take that lightly, this is Robert Baratheon.

 

Precisely, that's why Ned tried to be merciful with Cersei's children, because he knew Robert would have them killed and would not bat an eye.

Let's not kid ourselves, Elia and her children were killed in Robert's name, and he accepted it, going as far as to reward Tywin with a royal marriage. If someone murders a person in your name and you accept it, then you effectively is to blame for that person's murder as well, and again, that's why Ned showed mercy to Cersei's children.

 

One of the things that bothers me most in this series is how Robert can be in love for so long with someone he doesn't even know? He needed Ned to tell him what Lyanna would say if he tried to make a fool of himself by trying to enter in the tourney and compete against the young knights. And Ned's response was quite generous actually, because Lyanna was quite the foulmouthed with Benjen when they were fighting with wooden branches. She was as wild as Arya.

 

 

First,Ned resigned because Robert was accepting councel  to order the murder of Dany and her unborn baby.Something he didn't think Robert could ever do.Hence the " I thought we made a better king than Aerys line."Hence,telling Robert " You are no Tywin Lannister to order the murder of children"

Where is it ever showed or stated in this series that Ned was fearful of Robert? Nowhere,he knows Robert has a temper but it blows over like any storm.

Ned told Cat in AGOT." Robert would never hurt him or his." Keep in mind that statement from Ned its important.Keep in mind the fact that Ned knows that Robert hates Targs to the point of saying in AGOT "Robert's hatred of Targs was well known, it was a madness.

Reconcile Ned's knowledge and belief that "Robert would never hurt him or his " and " Robert hating Targs to the point of madnesss ".Now throw in the "theory" that Jon is a Targ alongside Ned's belief see if it makes sense.

Again not our opnion on if Ned is wrong or not about what robert would or could do,but his belief.That matters.

Secondly,your not looking at the issue that would show if what you are saying is right or wrong.Ned is the one who suppossed to know that Jon is a secret Targ according to this theory am i right? Therefore,he opted to let  Robert think for years after both these people are dead that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her over and over? He opted to have Robert carry Lyanna in his heart all these years knowing she didn't love him for what? There's no point except torture for Robert.Yet when Robert walked through the gates of WF and wanted to go to the crypts he said inwardly 

" He loved Robert with all his heart at that moment for remembering her after all these years.AGOT" After introduing him to the Stark litter.

Similar to Bran when Jon excluded himself after they were imtroduced to the Direwolf litter" He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment AGOT."

See the parallel?

It makes nosense for Ned to let Robert continue to hold a torch for a woman that didn't love him.Yet Ned doesn't even hint that he thought this love for his sister should be abandoned.

Cersie's case is different.....Robert believed all the kids Cersie had for him was his,she was sleeping with a member of his KG who happened to be her brother. It has been going on for years.Lastly,he didn't love Cersie.That would make it easier.Ned loooking down the line saw war that  would insue and in his mind "The realm wouldn't survive another DOD."

Lyanna would be his BFF's sister who he did love as well as her brother.And to reiterate after both are dead,there would be no point to let him keep believing Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.

Lastly,there is no text that indicates Robert didn't know Lyanna.Readers mis interpret that entire conversation. Ned said to Robert that " You didn't know Lyanna as i did,you only saw the beauty not the iron beneath."

This has nothing to do with Robert not knowing Lyanna at all.This was Ned telling Robert he knew aspects of Lyanna Robert never saw.Robert  never saw her iron.And that infers that Robert never did anything to warrent Lyanna showing him her ironside.He saw Lyanna's goodside never provoked her to tell him off.

Edited by wolfmaid7

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3 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

" He loved Robert with all his heart at that moment for remembering her after all these years.AGOT" After introduing him to the Stark litter.

Similar to Bran when Jon excluded himself after they were imtroduced to the Direwolf litter" He loved Jon with all his heart at that moment AGOT.

Yah, it's this kind of choice, so specific, that deserves more attention.  Martin does this with Lysa and Bran as well:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII
"Then where?" asked Osha.
"White Harbor . . . the Umbers . . . I do not know . . . war everywhere . . . each man against his neighbor, and winter coming . . . such folly, such black mad folly . . ." Maester Luwin reached up and grasped Bran's forearm, his fingers closing with a desperate strength. "You must be strong now. Strong."

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn VI

Lysa seated herself near the fire and said, "Come to Mother, my sweet one." She straightened his bedclothes and fussed with his fine brown hair. "Isn't he beautiful? And strong too, don't you believe the things you hear. Jon knew. The seed is strong, he told me. His last words. He kept saying Robert's name, and he grabbed my arm so hard he left marks. Tell them, the seed is strong. His seed. He wanted everyone to know what a good strong boy my baby was going to be."

I think if you're looking for 'clues', it's is this kind of connective tissue that has to be considered.  What or who is Jon Arryn really rambling on about?  Of course he is not talking about Robyn Arryn but he is talking about one of Robert's sons.  We become blinded with bias by insisting that this is about black hair and blue eyes or that Robert only produces children with black hair and blue eyes.  The book of lineages only mentions black hair and that Lannister gold yields to coal.  Ned goes back 90 and 120 years for other Lannister pairings.  We're given no information about Baratheon offspring during those gaps.  Of Robert's 16 bastards, only 4 have any description at all.  That's a lot of missing information.    

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"He is eight. And not robust. But such a good boy, so bright and clever. He will be a great man, Alayne. The seed is strong, my lord husband said before he died. His last words. The gods sometimes let us glimpse the future as we lay dying.

So are we really talking about Robert's virility?  All the Stark children have to be strong.  I think this is what Jon Arryn is talking about when he says 'tell them, the seed is strong' including Robert's seed.   It's misdirection to think this is about black hair/blue eyes or the number of bastards Robert has sired.

Edited by LynnS

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40 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yah, it's this kind of choice, so specific, that deserves more attention.  Martin does this with Lysa and Bran as well:

I think if you're looking for 'clues', it's is this kind of connective tissue that has to be considered.  What or who is Jon Arryn really rambling on about?  Of course he is not talking about Robyn Arryn but he is talking about one of Robert's sons.  We become blinded with bias by insisting that this is about black hair and blue eyes or that Robert only produces children with black hair and blue eyes.  The book of lineages only mentions black hair and that Lannister gold yields to coal.  Ned goes back 90 and 120 years for other Lannister pairings.  We're given no information about Baratheon offspring during those gaps.  Of Robert's 16 bastards, only 4 have any description at all.  That's a lot of missing information.    

So are we really talking about Robert's virility?  All the Stark children have to be strong.  I think this is what Jon Arryn is talking about when he says 'tell them, the seed is strong' including Robert's seed.   It's misdirection to think this is about black hair/blue eyes or the number of bastards Robert has sired.

Very true all of what you said.....and we ain't going to derail this thread with other. But my point on the previous post was Ned is our insider;especially when it comes to the way he thinks.

It doesn't matter what we think concerning what Robert would or wouldn't do.What should concern us is things Ned did and didn't do.If we are going to make assertions that Ned didn't tell Robert about Lyanna and Rhaegar because he feared what robert would do.How does that make sense when:

1. Rhaegar and Lyanna are dead and have been dead 15 yrs.So what he would or wouldn't do regarding them evaporated.

2. He claimed Jon as his own and there is so many rumors about Jon's mom all of them NOT Lyanna there is no threat to Jon from Robert and there never was.

Therefore,if the theory is true wouldn't the best thing be for Ned was let Robert know especially when Robert has Dany in his sight and pretty much drinking and eating himself into an early grave?

 

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2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Very true all of what you said.....and we ain't going to derail this thread with other. But my point on the previous post was Ned is our insider;especially when it comes to the way he thinks.

Getting back to Rhaegar then and the question of why he changed his mind about the PwiP.  Aemon did discuss the prophecy with Rhaegar:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."
Aemon also mentions the dreamer:
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A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

That had been one of his last good days. After that the old man spent more time sleeping than awake, curled up beneath a pile of furs in the captain's cabin. Sometimes he would mutter in his sleep. When he woke he'd call for Sam, insisting that he had to tell him something, but oft as not he would have forgotten what he meant to say by the time that Sam arrived. Even when he did recall, his talk was all a jumble. He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. He asked Sam to read for him from a book by Septon Barth, whose writings had been burned during the reign of Baelor the Blessed. Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."
I think the dreamer must be the Ghost of High Heart who trades songs for dreams.  She has an association with Jenny of Oldstones and the tragedy of Summerhall:
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A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

And so Lem woke Tom Sevenstrings beneath his furs, and brought him yawning to the fireside with his woodharp in hand. "The same song as before?" he asked.

"Oh, aye. My Jenny's song. Is there another?"

And so he sang, and the dwarf woman closed her eyes and rocked slowly back and forth, murmuring the words and crying. Thoros took Arya firmly by the hand and drew her aside. "Let her savor her song in peace," he said. "It is all she has left."

 
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A Storm of Swords - Arya VIII

Cold fingers walked down Arya's neck. Fear cuts deeper than swords, she reminded herself. She stood and approached the fire warily, light on the balls of her feet, poised to flee.

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . ." She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

So I don't think it's a stretch that she is the same wood's witch who made the prophecy to begin with:

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A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys IV

"A woods witch?" Dany was astonished.

"She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest."

"What became of her?"

This is the long way of saying that Rhaegar probably traded songs for dreams with her at Summerhall.  She is likely the dreamer that Aemon refers to. It may be during his sojourns to Summerhall that he learned that his son was the PwiP and not himself.  She is also an agent of the old gods and he may have learned something of Lyanna through her as well.

So when Kevin Lannister says that Rhaegar 'looked twice at her';  I don't think this has anything to do with love at first sight.  When you glance at someone and then quickly look at them again; often this is a sign of recognition.  Something to do with the dreamer or something he has been told?

When Rhaegar sings a sad song that makes all the maid's cry and finishes the tournament by giving Lyanna a crown of roses, all the smiles died.  Jenny with flowers in her hair died at Summerhall.

Martin word choice is very specific:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

He doesn't call it, the queen of love and beauty's laurel.

Rhaegar doesn't exactly crown Lyanna, he places the laurel in her lap.  So she isn't receiving full honors.

 

Edited by LynnS

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Question for others who accept that Lyanna was "carried off" in the riverlands by Rhaegar and his party, and ended her days at the Tower of Joy in Dorne:

How do you think they traveled from the "carried off" site in the riverlands to the ToJ in Dorne? By land or by sea? I suspect they went by sea.

With Myles Mooton likely being one of the half a dozen friends and confidants of Rhaegar that had set out with him by early 282,  Maidenpool seems a plausible site of departure by sea. Or perhaps Saltpans, like Arya?

With Arthur Dayne likely being one of the half a dozen friends and confidants of Rhaegar that had set out with him by early 282, Starfall seems a plausible site of arrival by sea.

What do you think?

 

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13 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

With Myles Mooton likely being one of the half a dozen friends and confidants of Rhaegar that had set out with him by early 282,  Maidenpool seems a plausible site of departure by sea. Or perhaps Saltpans, like Arya?

I think they did end up traveling by sea from likely Maidenpool. What's interesting with the sea travel is that they would have had to book passage, so they may have had to stop at different places before reaching their destination. 

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1 hour ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Question for others who accept that Lyanna was "carried off" in the riverlands by Rhaegar and his party, and ended her days at the Tower of Joy in Dorne:

How do you think they traveled from the "carried off" site in the riverlands to the ToJ in Dorne? By land or by sea? I suspect they went by sea.

With Myles Mooton likely being one of the half a dozen friends and confidants of Rhaegar that had set out with him by early 282,  Maidenpool seems a plausible site of departure by sea. Or perhaps Saltpans, like Arya?

With Arthur Dayne likely being one of the half a dozen friends and confidants of Rhaegar that had set out with him by early 282, Starfall seems a plausible site of arrival by sea.

What do you think?

I've suggested a departure by ship from Maidenpool, too, especially since this would also be a very suitable site for their wedding, should it have taken place. The evidence we have points towards Maidenpool being the place where Florian and Jonquil once lived (if they existed).

Maidenpool would also be a place where Rhaegar and Lyanna were safe from Aerys' wrath at first, with the closeness to the sea allowing them to flee as soon an army approached the city.

From there they could have returned to Westeros via Starfall. Then they would have been on the way to some unknown place when they ended up in the tower of joy.

The idea that they went there overland isn't very convincing to me in light of the fact how easy it must have been for the king or even the Starks and Robert to track them down.

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12 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think they did end up traveling by sea from likely Maidenpool. What's interesting with the sea travel is that they would have had to book passage, so they may have had to stop at different places before reaching their destination. 

That would depend if the "kidnapping" was pre-planned,or a spur-of-the-moment decision.

I do like the idea of them travelling by sea, it would be an unexpected route for any pursuing party.

 

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17 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

How do you think they traveled from the "carried off" site in the riverlands to the ToJ in Dorne? By land or by sea? I suspect they went by sea.

2

I agree a sea voyage makes sense, especially if it was somewhat pre-meditated (again, I'm not certain it was but it makes sense if it was).

I always wondered why after nabbing Lyanna Rhaegar seemed to evaporate into thin air for a bit. The first places people would have probably gone looking for them are places like King's Landing and Dragonstone. Rhaegar was apparently at neither of these places as far as we know and only "returned from the south" later roughly around the time of the Battle of Ashford/JonCon's defeat at Battle of the Bells. So, a reasonable explanation as to why we lose track of Rhaegar for a bit could be that he was on a boat during that time.

Either way, it would have been wise to stay off the Kingsroad to decrease the risk of being caught. Brandon blew off his own wedding to charge to King's Landing with his sword swinging as soon as word reached him Rhaegar had taken his sister. To throw people off the scent, they could have ridden to Maidenpool and headed for Planky Town.

17 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I think they did end up traveling by sea from likely Maidenpool. What's interesting with the sea travel is that they would have had to book passage, so they may have had to stop at different places before reaching their destination. 

If they were on a boat, it would be interesting to know at what point they realised a literal war had broken out because of them. Especially if there were several stops on the way to Planky Town.

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5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That would depend if the "kidnapping" was pre-planned,or a spur-of-the-moment decision.

I do like the idea of them travelling by sea, it would be an unexpected route for any pursuing party.

Sure. Even then, a stop at Essos would not really surprise me. 

54 minutes ago, Faera said:

If they were on a boat, it would be interesting to know at what point they realised a literal war had broken out because of them. Especially if there were several stops on the way to Planky Town.

It would be nice to know what kind of timeline we have on this. How long did it take Brandon to get to King's Landing, and how long did it take Rickard to answer the summons. 

Rhaegar's deafening silence during the war, especially when Barristan describes him as dutiful is weird and always feels to me like he just left his life as a crown prince behind. It always makes me wonder if something nasty didn't go down between him and Aerys.

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