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Ygrain

R+L=J v.165

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13 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

That's what I think, too. The guy unhorsed him in front of the lady whom Brandon was trying to impress - what an affront!

Once, I posted a speculation about whom Brandon might have crowned, had he won - whether he would have crowned the little sis, or cause a scandal by crowning Ashara :D

Brandon seems to have been hot-headed and impulsive enough to cause a scandal.

He would have had to beat Barristan Semly, presumably, but given Catelyn wasn't there then the "proper" thing would very likely have been to crown his sister. It would have been wild if Ashara had been the one crowned, though! Based on the fact she danced with a fair view people, I wouldn't be surprised if she was choice number one for a lot of blokes that tilted that day.

Given I am on "Team Brandon Done Did It!" when it comes to who Ashara's Stark was, I wonder if seeing him humbled might have weirdly endeared him even more to her...

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2 hours ago, Faera said:

Brandon seems to have been hot-headed and impulsive enough to cause a scandal.

He would have had to beat Barristan Semly, presumably, but given Catelyn wasn't there then the "proper" thing would very likely have been to crown his sister. It would have been wild if Ashara had been the one crowned, though! Based on the fact she danced with a fair view people, I wouldn't be surprised if she was choice number one for a lot of blokes that tilted that day.

Given I am on "Team Brandon Done Did It!" when it comes to who Ashara's Stark was, I wonder if seeing him humbled might have weirdly endeared him even more to her...

That is also possible, and there would be nothing weird about it. He was hurting (his ego definitely more than his backside), and comforted him - sounds familiar? - And the other way round: his hurt ego needed some balm, so what would be better than the hottest girl around who also happens to be the sister to Rhaegar's BF?

I haven't though about it in this light (or perhaps I have, and forgot), but it actually makes most sense for Brandon to make his move at the end of the tourney - they part afterwards, there are not so many opportunities for gossipping or for her brother wanting his hide if/when he finds out, plus that hurt ego that would overcome any scrupules he might have had...

Yeah, I am definitely Team Brandon, too, but not Brandon's fan!

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20 hours ago, Ygrain said:

That's what I think, too. The guy unhorsed him in front of the lady whom Brandon was trying to impress - what an affront!

Once, I posted a speculation about whom Brandon might have crowned, had he won - whether he would have crowned the little sis, or cause a scandal by crowning Ashara :D

I disagree with your wording here, you seem to imply that Brandon crowning Ashara would be as much a scandal as Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was.

How would it be ? Brandon wouldn't offend anyone since his betrothed wasn't even present and as far as we know Ashara wasn't promised to anyone. In brief the situation had absolutely nothing to do with what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think I don't have to remind you the event but actually the fool managed to slight three party at once that day. No wonder the scandal it stirred and then how he got smashed by his own cousin.

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3 hours ago, Kal-L said:

I disagree with your wording here, you seem to imply that Brandon crowning Ashara would be as much a scandal as Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was.

Not such a big scandal, but a scandal still. Betrothed men are not supposed to show interest in other women, especially when they can crown their sister, or perhaps make a political gesture and crown Elia. Crowning Ashara would have been inappropriate.

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48 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Not such a big scandal, but a scandal still. Betrothed men are not supposed to show interest in other women, especially when they can crown their sister, or perhaps make a political gesture and crown Elia. Crowning Ashara would have been inappropriate.

Who said so ? Still doesn't see your scandal. Brandon crowning Ashara wouldn't be taken at offense by anyone, just a young man (not even married) rewarding a young maiden for her "oustanding" beauty, nothing unusual, especially at a tourney.

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4 hours ago, Kal-L said:

I disagree with your wording here, you seem to imply that Brandon crowning Ashara would be as much a scandal as Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was.

How would it be ? Brandon wouldn't offend anyone since his betrothed wasn't even present and as far as we know Ashara wasn't promised to anyone. In brief the situation had absolutely nothing to do with what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think I don't have to remind you the event but actually the fool managed to slight three party at once that day. No wonder the scandal it stirred and then how he got smashed by his own cousin.

Catelyn, Brandon's betrothed, is related to the Whents, who are hosting the tourney. It would be bad form for Brandon to crown Ashara. Politically, it would have been safer to crown either his sister or the Whent girl.

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5 hours ago, Kal-L said:

I disagree with your wording here, you seem to imply that Brandon crowning Ashara would be as much a scandal as Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was.

How would it be ? Brandon wouldn't offend anyone since his betrothed wasn't even present and as far as we know Ashara wasn't promised to anyone. In brief the situation had absolutely nothing to do with what happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I think I don't have to remind you the event but actually the fool managed to slight three party at once that day. No wonder the scandal it stirred and then how he got smashed by his own cousin.

Brandon was already betrothed, which is enough for oaths to be renounced, wars to be fought, and blood to be spilled over when broken or insulted. It is crazy to suggest that it wouldn't have been controversial for Brandon, betrothed to Hoster Tully's daughter, to crown Ashara at a tourney hosted by a house which is not only sworn to the Tullys, but is the house of Catelyn's mother.

No, it wouldn't automatically set off a war then and there, any more than Rhaegar crowning Lyanna did in and of itself. But it could have had great consequences for the Stark/Tully ties, especially if war had still eventually broken out. The Tullys were already in no hurry to jump into the war after Brandon's execution without him having pulled such a stunt.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Catelyn, Brandon's betrothed, is related to the Whents, who are hosting the tourney. It would be bad form for Brandon to crown Ashara. Politically, it would have been safer to crown either his sister or the Whent girl.

But  whether it's better to crown his sister rather than Ashara is not the point, I don't even think he would have crowned Arthur's sister as I don't think he was particularly attached to her (anymore than Barbrey for example). However if he did, people would speak of it as the Stark heir getting momentarily smitten by some beautiful maiden, nothing else since there would offically be nothing else to say. Now after her pregnant state would be revealed, yeah there would obviously be a scandal but that's another story.

45 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Brandon was already betrothed, which is enough for oaths to be renounced, wars to be fought, and blood to be spilled over when broken or insulted. It is crazy to suggest that it wouldn't have been controversial for Brandon, betrothed to Hoster Tully's daughter, to crown Ashara at a tourney hosted by a house which is not only sworn to the Tullys, but is the house of Catelyn's mother.

No, it wouldn't automatically set off a war then and there, any more than Rhaegar crowning Lyanna did in and of itself. But it could have had great consequences for the Stark/Tully ties, especially if war had still eventually broken out. The Tullys were already in no hurry to jump into the war after Brandon's execution without him having pulled such a stunt.

I admit I laughed at the bolded, what else ? Should Brandon "the Gallant fool" be burned alive in front of Cat so the Tully who weren't even present could be satisfied ?

Don't know what kind of scenario you pulled but if Brandon had crowned Ashara it would mean that he won the tourney and then there would be no reason to assume Rhaegar was the one "kidnapping" Lyanna if it still happens by the way...

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13 hours ago, Kal-L said:

Who said so ? Still doesn't see your scandal. Brandon crowning Ashara wouldn't be taken at offense by anyone, just a young man (not even married) rewarding a young maiden for her "oustanding" beauty, nothing unusual, especially at a tourney.

Alright, let's put it this way. Perhaps "scandal" is not a correct word. But, do you think that Hoster Tully or Cat would be pleased, learning that Brandon crowned some strikingly beautiful girl, instead of the safe choices of Lyanna, the Whent girl or royalty? Do you think they would consider Brandon's choice appropriate? Because while not married yet, Brandon was promised - note how Harwin speaks about a potential N+A romance - neither was promised, so whatever they chose to do, concerned no-one else. And while men were not subject to the strict standards of not sleeping around when engaged, they certainly were not supposed to make public gestures that could be interpreted as showing interest in another woman.

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Oh, there is no doubt that Rhaegar giving the wreath to Lyanna caused a bigger scandal than anyone Brandon could have handed it to. Passing over your lady wife for the betrothed daughter of House Stark is more uncomfortable than Brandon tossing the wreath at Ashara. Nonetheless for a betrothed man to crown a (presumably) unattached maid of fifteen or sixteen, lady in waiting and companion to the Princess, and not a relative of the host, would have sparked rumour. Some might have seen it as a slight on Ashara's honour, as an affront to the absent Catelyn or Hoster, others might have thought it improper for a man promised to give the wreath to anyone but his sister at that point.

Honestly, I think Brandon winning the tourney would have been a stretch as even Rhaegar beating Barristan was a bit of a surprise. Plus, as @Ygrain said above, it might even be that the dishonouring of Ashara occurred because of Brandon's bruised pride (and rump) after being unhorsed and then having his sister shown up before the whole realm. Presuming he was the naughty wolf responsible for Ashara's shame, which I personally think he was.

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10 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Alright, let's put it this way. Perhaps "scandal" is not a correct word. But, do you think that Hoster Tully or Cat would be pleased, learning that Brandon crowned some strikingly beautiful girl, instead of the safe choices of Lyanna, the Whent girl or royalty? Do you think they would consider Brandon's choice appropriate? Because while not married yet, Brandon was promised - note how Harwin speaks about a potential N+A romance - neither was promised, so whatever they chose to do, concerned no-one else. And while men were not subject to the strict standards of not sleeping around when engaged, they certainly were not supposed to make public gestures that could be interpreted as showing interest in another woman.

No I don't think so, I do think that Lord Rickard might have to insist with him on putting Brandon's act on the account of the youth, a young gallant fool who's just won the first -southern- tourney he's taken part in (something that is important) who also happened to be the biggest one the 7 kingdoms have seen for decades. On his side Brandon could give Cat some sweet talk if needed, otherwise I can't see it turning into something that can't be dealt between the two families.

4 hours ago, Faera said:

 

Honestly, I think Brandon winning the tourney would have been a stretch as even Rhaegar beating Barristan was a bit of a surprise. Plus, as @Ygrain said above, it might even be that the dishonouring of Ashara occurred because of Brandon's bruised pride (and rump) after being unhorsed and then having his sister shown up before the whole realm. Presuming he was the naughty wolf responsible for Ashara's shame, which I personally think he was.

That's an interesting theory that definitely deserved some thoughts. Personally I don't approve it, I mean from what we heard from Barbrey, Brandon was never shy in taking what he wanted meaning had he been attracted by Ashara Dayne he would surely have make a move. That's why I feel him going at Ashara after his loss to get back at Rhaegar would be a bit out of character. Also Ashara was Ashara was a lady-in-waiting to Princess Elia was had been the one shamed by Rhaegar's move the most. It wouldn't be Rhaegar but Elia he attacked even though Arthur was closed to Rhaegar, unless he had something against Arthur Dayne it would be rather stupid.

I think Brandon and Ashara had an affair at some point at Harrenhall which turned bad when it was revealed she was pregnant. Now I wonder if she was mourning him at his death and if she killed herserf because of that and all the death she suffered (Arthur, Elia...).

Edited by Kal-L

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1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

That's why I feel him going at Ashara after his loss to get back at Rhaegar would be a bit out of character.

Oh, I don't think he did it for that reason at all. I think Brandon went after Ashara simply because fancied her. What I really meant was is that the events the tourney - Brandon being humbled by Rhaegar and then having his sister shown up, upsetting him even more - might have further endeared him to Ashara. Especially if the flirtation had been going on since the first night before the tourney kicked off proper and he asked her to give nerdy ol' Ned a push around the dance floor. ;)

1 hour ago, Kal-L said:

I think Brandon and Ashara had an affair at some point at Harrenhall which turned bad when it was revealed she was pregnant.

It is possible. I doubt Ashara would have realised she was pregnant until the tourney was over and everyone went home. So, I wonder if she ever had a chance to even tell him or what his reaction was when he found out.

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2 hours ago, Kal-L said:

On his side Brandon could give Cat some sweet talk if needed

There would be no "sweet talk" with Cat. The sweet talk would have to be with Hoster Tully, the man whose daughter's honor Brandon did not take into consideration. I think you're not realizing how harsh and medieval things are in Westeros.

House Stark was trying to form an alliance with House Tully, and before the alliance even begun, House Stark would be dishonoring House Tully publicly if Brandon had won the tourney and crowned Ashara.

If there's one thing people in power care about in Westeros, is the honor and pride of their house and family. That's what is all about.

 

Edited by theMADdestScientist_

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22 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

There would be no "sweet talk" with Cat. The sweet talk would have to be with Hoster Tully, the man whose daughter's honor Brandon did not take into consideration. I think you're not realizing how harsh and medieval things are in Westeros.

House Stark was trying to form an alliance with House Tully, and before the alliance even begun, House Stark would be dishonoring House Tully publicly if Brandon had won the tourney and crowned Ashara.

 

And I think you're overrating the consequences of this act. Whether the Tully would approved it or not is a thing, whether Brandon's act would be enough to irrevocably broke ties is another thing and I disagree with that notion.

As I already mentioned in my previous post Lord Rickard would have to deal with Hoster if the man was so "offended" and could convince him that Brandon's act was to be put on the account of youth.

After all would it be so surprising that a young "knight" such as Brandon got briefly smitten by a beautiful maiden at a Tourney and decided during the euphory of his victor to crown her ? Especially a northern who isn't used to that kind of events (full of beautiful young maiden) and so could easily be charmed (or rather influenced) by the romantic mood ?

By the way how many times did Brandon and Cat see each others throughout the years they were betrothed ? They barely know each other at that point (year 281), and on top of that she isn't even present at the Great Tourney organized by her vassal and mother's House (as many pointed out) who happened to gathers the most important figures of the realm. Which led to the question all must have wondered, why ? How is that even possible when even her northern betrothed is there ?

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This world is ruled by convention and ritual. If you a betrothed or married to a woman you honor said woman in a tourney. If you are a bachelor or widower and not promised to anyone, you honor a sister or family member. You don't go around and honor some woman you are not connected with in any way.

If you do that, you risk giving the appearance that said woman is or was your lover - or that you want to be her lover. That is always damaging to the honor of the woman - gossipers will question the fidelity or virginity of such a woman - as well as the honor of the house. If the woman is seen as a whore or slut in the wake of that this will reflect badly on the male members of the house.

That is what angered both Brandon and Ned when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna, and there is no reason to believe that these two were special in the way they saw this.

Breaking that mode would have been caused similar reactions for Brandon than it did for Rhaegar. 

It is actually a pretty strange thought that romance and love ruled the convention of crowning a queen of love and beauty. Romance is little more than a literary genre in the Seven Kingdoms. Marriages are arranged. As nobleman you may have a mistress, lover, or whore who you dearly love but it is a very rare thing that you love your wife or betrothed. Yet you still honor your betrothed/wife in public because she is (going to be) the mother of your children and means you or your family used to bind another family to yours (or collect a significant amount of coin via her dowry).

The idea that a tourney is the place where people publicly express their romantic feelings is pretty silly. Rhaegar caused a significant scandal by doing this. This is not something that's done on a regular basis.

Which is why Aerys II and his cronies actually misinterpreted the whole thing. They saw Lyanna's coronation as a sign that Rhaegar was making political overtures to the Starks in his attempt to conspire against Aerys. They didn't see this as Rhaegar simply expressing his feelings - most likely because this was so out of a way an idea that it never crossed their minds.

Brandon crowning Ashara would most likely be seen as Brandon trying to suck up to the Daynes for some reason. Not to Ashara as such, because she was nothing and and of herself. If he wanted to be close to her, to fuck her, etc. he could do arrange that in a less public forum.

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Politics are NOT the main points of the story, as the author has stated, but rather a distraction to the bigger issue. And the author has also stated this is a story that tells a tale of the heart. This includes Rhaegar and everyone before him, and after. 

Politics be damned because that is not going to save Westerosi humanity. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

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The politics is messy and a big distraction and really gets in the way of the human element. While everyone is worried about who is plotting with who and who is marrying who, the most significant story that went on during the tourney was three teenagers and possibly a child creating this Knight of the Laughing Tree to avenge one of them who had been bullied. As for poor Ashara, she might have ended up tainting her reputation forever due to a misguided yet perfectly natural and genuine affection for a wild yet surprisingly sensitive wild wolf.

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I love the political side of things in the books, that's always been my biggest draw. Politics is complicated and messy and petty AF and it's always interesting to see who falls on which side and why and how people try to turn things to their advantage. 

In discussing the tourney at Harrenhal in another thread and going off of the posts from fellow posters, something dawned on me and I think it might be relevant. I don't know if it's something that's been discussed here.

We are told by Barristan that Rhaegar seldom entered the lists. But at Harrenhal, he did. And we are given the names of four people he jousted and won against. Brandon, Bronze Yohn Royce, Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy.

With Aerys present at the tourney, the suspicion of conspiracy, perhaps the reason Rhaegar entered the lists at all was because he could meet his lords without raising too much suspicion, because every person who would have fallen to him would have had to stop by his pavilion to ransom their horse and their armor.

In Bran II, Storm 24, we are told that the KotLT met with the men they beat to ransom their horses and armors. Bran finds that part of the story stupid, but it really isn't, because this is what happens at tourneys. Another person who speaks of ransoming horses and armor is Sandor Clegane when he talks about Donnel Haigh. And we have a really good example of this in the Mystery Knight when Dunc loses his tilt and has no money to ransom the horse or the armor. 

So going off this, Rhaegar beat Brandon, and unless Brandon is sending his squire in his stead, Brandon has to march himself to Rhaegar's pavilion to ransom back his horse and his armor and Bronze Yohn would have had to do the same. This provides opportunity for Rhaegar to meet with the people he beat in the joust, speak to them one on one.

And if something had gone off the rail between Rhaegar and Brandon, then it might have been then.

Edited by Widow's Watch

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4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I love the political side of things in the books, that's always been my biggest draw. Politics is complicated and messy and petty AF and it's always interesting to see who falls on which side and why and how people try to turn things to their advantage. 

In discussing the tourney at Harrenhal in another thread and going off of the posts from fellow posters, something dawned on me and I think it might be relevant. I don't know if it's something that's been discussed here.

We are told by Barristan that Rhaegar seldom entered the lists. But at Harrenhal, he did. And we are given the names of four people he jousted and won against. Brandon, Bronze Yohn Royce, Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy.

With Aerys present at the tourney, the suspicion of conspiracy, perhaps the reason Rhaegar entered the lists at all was because he could meet his lords without raising too much suspicion, because every person who would have fallen to him would have had to stop by his pavilion to ransom their horse and their armor.

In Bran II, Storm 24, we are told that the KotLT met with the men they beat to ransom their horses and armors. Bran finds that part of the story stupid, but it really isn't, because this is what happens at tourneys. Another person who speaks of ransoming horses and armor is Sandor Clegane when he talks about Donnel Haigh. And we have a really good example of this in the Mystery Knight when Dunc loses his tilt and has no money to ransom the horse or the armor. 

So going off this, Rhaegar beat Brandon, and unless Brandon is sending his squire in his stead, Brandon has to march himself to Rhaegar's pavilion to ransom back his horse and his armor and Bronze Yohn would have had to do the same. This provides opportunity for Rhaegar to meet with the people he beat in the joust, speak to them one on one.

And if something had gone off the rail between Rhaegar and Brandon, then it might have been then.

Excellent, @Widow's Watch! I never even considered that the men Rhaegar defeated would have met him to ransom their things. Definitely something to take into account and consider, particularly in the case of Brandon.

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4 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

So going off this, Rhaegar beat Brandon, and unless Brandon is sending his squire in his stead, Brandon has to march himself to Rhaegar's pavilion to ransom back his horse and his armor and Bronze Yohn would have had to do the same. This provides opportunity for Rhaegar to meet with the people he beat in the joust, speak to them one on one.

 

:o

That is brilliant! I never thought about this before. God, I wish I could be the fly on the wall for that meeting...

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