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The Last Jedi: Here There Be Spoilers


AndrewJ

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Spoiler

 

Well I don't get to see it til Sunday but thanks to my own weakness and asshole friends on the internet(not you guys) I had most of it spoiled.

I'll just say, I absolutely LOVE that Rey's parents turned out to be nobodys. That took balls. And appears to have really pissed off a certain subset of fans.

And, keep in mind I haven;t seen it yet so my opinion may change, Luke becoming one with the force at the end makes perfect sense.

 

 

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I just got back and I feel overwhelmed, and filled with mixed feelings. I really wanted to love this movie, and maybe on repeated viewings, my opinion will improve (or not). 

I've heard it said that this is great for the SW fans, but less for the casuals, and I disagree with that statement. This movie is filled with great moments, but the overall plot and some of the character development was off.

It may be that what bugs me the most is that all expectations were subverted, all predictions became irrelevant, so maybe if I can get past that, I'll appreciate the movie more. I'm glad it was not ESB 2.0, but I don't think it was quite at that level either.

I'm too tired now to list all that I liked and disliked, that's for tomorrow.

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OK here goes. I'm not going to get into my emotional state, only to share that at my packed screening at the end there was a scattering of applause, but it was the quietest Star Wars crowd exiting the theater I ever experienced in my life. And I;m one of those who's in her 40's and remember seeing them in the theater as a kid...there were a lot of young people who were vocally unhappy as we walked out. 

Needless to say, people are going to be debating this for years....to say it is controversial is putting it mildly. Of course I can't say I'm happy, I'm very upset at Luke's death. But on the other hand, I expected him to die in Ep 9 and had steeled myself for him to die at some point. What I did not expect was that it would have so much meaning, that Rian Johnson would address what Luke means (I'll never,EVER say "meant") so overtly and he gave it so much depth. My most negative thought I'll save for last. Rian may have done the best he could, and that best is damned good. 

 

Halfway through it, I scribbled down the signature line of the movie. No, not "This is not going to go the way you think" but: "Leia says that hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you  see it, then it is not there." That was scribbled from memory so might have missed a word or two.

 

Hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you see it, then it is not there.

I don't know about you, but that's a quote that's a keeper. 

 

And sitting at home replaying the film in my mind, this metaphor of Light (the Sun) v. Darkness (Hope vs. despair) unfolded onscreen in wonderfully layered ways. It runs all through the film. Yeah, it's Star Wars, it's not Ingmar Bergman, but wow this was powerful stuff unfolding in a "kid's film." (Now I think of Mark's line he's been repeating to the world's media in the press junkets about "escapism:, "making people happy." boy, what irony, what a way to subtely express your disquiet with Disney! Class act mark..but then he always has been.) 

The Poe/Rose/everyone else you can take or leave, except for Carrie...I teared up a lot. Her last performance was a great one. 

Random thoughts in no particular order:

Sun (hope) vs Darkness (despair). Now i have to watch all the scenes in the film that take place on land, which in light and which in dark. Yes, this does have meaning. 

Rian's comment on the malarky that The Force has become since the OT (no thanks to Lucas himself! Like  he'd lost faith himself.) Midichloians/the Sacred texts/the Force Relics and objects. It's almost parody: in a generation The Force went from Yoda's "energy filed that surrounds us and binds us...luminous beings are we" to all this other CRAP. Rian has the Sacred Relics literally put on a pedestal. Yoda steps in and says "F***d, this s*** is," and blows it up. This scene of course taking place in darkness. 

 

OK almost lost that post. Tired. I'll Submit this and get the rest in in an Edit. Nope, another post. 

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The quote is better. It is "hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you see it you will never get through the night."

And this one: 

"We don't fight to destroy what we hate. We fight to save what we love. That's why we'll win. "

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8 hours ago, felice said:

I wonder if there'll be a big time jump for the next film? Give the casually force-using kid at the end time to grow up, and Leia time to rebuild a real rebellion offscreen.

Wait what?  I didn't notice the kid using the Force.

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16 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Wait what?  I didn't notice the kid using the Force.

 

It was very quick but two things.

1.  He didn't touch the broom he just sort of willed it into his hand

2.  He was telling the other kids the story of Skywalker's last stand.  This crappy backwater planet probably doesn't have Wi-fi so he probably saw it all though a vision in the force even if he probably didn't realize what he was seeing. 

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Continued: I'll make it shorter. Random thoughts:

Luke's hiding the "relics" of the Force/Jedi in an elaborate cave on a pedestal in darkness, (symboliing all the additonal crap the Force became since the OT from Lucas/the fans/the literature) , vs.  Rey's beautiful "Circle of Life" vision of the Force (and the gorgeous accompanying montage of iife on the island) that echoes Yoda's ESB vision. The purety and simplicity of Youth vs Luke's more world-weary old man vision?  Did Yoda keep this simplicity and faith with him to his death, or did it come after?

 

Rey looking down off the cliff, in bright sunlight, to see Luke's X-Wing still buried underwater after  all these years. In ESB, it was there b/c he couldn't get it out. Here, we know he could lift it out if he wanted to but chose not to. But it is buried not on land but in the shallow water where the Sun can fall on it every day. Why did Luke leave it there? To remind himself of the consequences of his reckless actions in ESB?  (Sorry for italics..cant change now.) When he has Hope again, (believes) he'll lift it out. 

 

"I don't believe it"/That is why you fail." Luke really appears to have lost all faith/hope but has he really? Did he know that not getting involved, conserving his strength all those years, would make him more powerful in the end perhaps? Did the Texts tell him that? Was it necessary for him to be there to battle Kylo Ren? Or not? Was it cowerdice/copping out for him to project himself in battle instead of actually going himself. Or did he think that providing in illusion of invicibilty would be more valuable to the Resistance  in that moment. At the end he is sitting facing the setting sun....Halfway Hope. Did he think he'd make it out alive or did he know he'd die...again....

At the end of his days Luke still "doesn't believe it" and so must go maybe? I never got the feeling he was confident and collected at the end of ROTJ. He'd seen a huge amount of tragey in his life and then he finds and loses his father. Heck, he's already wearing black in ROTJ!

 

Every time Luke goes into his home/cave/shuts the door on Rey, everything he says and does, takes on new meaning after "Hope is like the sun," quote. My initial reaction to that line was: "Of course it's easy to believe in the Sun. It sets, but you know it's going to rise again in a few hours. if it doesn't it'll be b/c some Jupiter-sized asteroid smashes it to bits in which case we're all quickly dead, so the debate won't matter!" But did Luke "(Luc) become that "spark of light" at the end? Weird to talk about his "redemption arc"! 

 

And that's just The Force side of the debate...

 

 

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I’m not trying to pick a fight here but I think the posters who are disappointed by the movie because of plot holes are setting themselves up for disappointment.  This is just cheesy space opera with an exaggerated myth & hero basis.  It requires vast suspension of disbelief but it’s executed with verve, excitement and flair. 

The world building has always been for shit.  In fact, there’s never been any credible attempt at world building in any of the movies.  It still hasn’t been established, that I can recall, that the Empire or First Order does anything evil other than overkill the religious terrorist groups.  American audiences don’t see an uncomfortable irony about our drone strikes in Afghanistan; I’m always surprised that Americans root for the ragtag rebels when we’ve been the global superpower for decades.  The audience doesn’t see the Empire or FO passing unjust laws or censoring speech or indulging in corruption or taxing the populace heavily or oppressing anyone not associated with violent insurrection.  But they dress like Nazis and lately (Hux) make speeches like Nazis, so of course they’re evil.  We see localized slavery,  though unrelated to the FO, which occurred under the Jedi too. 

And lets not get started on breaking the laws of physics.  Guardians of the Galaxy seems to have opened the doors to characters surviving the vacuum of space and absolute zero without a pressurized suit.  But Star Wars also drops bombs in zero gravity, and opens bomb doors in the vacuum of space.  And every tiny space craft has artificial gravity.  And lots of explosions and flames in space extend far beyond just escaping oxygen.  And no-one ever thought of kamikaze light speed before even though we know (from TFA) that it pierces all shields.

And the characters were always paper thin.  Amidala was a democratically elected queen for an entire planet as a teenager.  The Jedi council had undemocratic power and influence over an entire galaxy based on their religion and potential for violence, but we just accept that as the right & just model.  

There were so many cringeworthy moments in this movie but I happily ignored them all and enjoyed the fun.  If I actually analyzed this like an episode of MadMen, it would ruin the movie.  They were never built to withstand any sceptical scrutiny. 

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Now, I'm a Yank and going to go political for a moment. Contrary to Lucas's statements over the years about SW being just kid's stuff, there's always been a strong political subtexts in the first 6 films. I won't delve into it here. We can all debate and provide numerous examples, some more overt than others. Esp in Eps. 2 and 3.

I missed that in TFA and feared Disney had killed that for good. But this film? You couldn't find something more topical and relevant than if Rian Johnson had written the script on Nov 10, 2016. I mean, it's eerily prescient that it's called The Resistance in the film, and we now have for the first time in US History an actual "Resistance" (yes, they call themselves that, with a capital R--it was born with the Womens' March) and for the same reasons. I mean, who'da thunk America would be taken over by its own version of the Nazi Party, "led" by (I'll quote Mark from the other day "a crank on Twitter"?)  And screw Fair and Balanced. if any Republican insists on defending this current iteration of their party and defends its actions for whatever reason....IMO it's not yet a Resistance though. They evoke the French Resistance during WW2 in the choice of name, but IMO a more fitting example is Standing Rock. THAt, folks, is a true "Resistance") . And currently from what I understand it's in tatters, no thanks in part to our dear Saint Bernard who just does not know when to STFU (and mysteriously votes pro-Russian on major issues....)

Well, after Alabama a little less despairing. But I'm not "jubilant." The At-At's are still at the door. 

And like Leia's outfit, , the American "Resistance" is at the end of its rope, being hounded and targeted for destruction,....etc. This is the darkest time in our history since the Civil War, Anyway, I suspect this will be very hard hitting to US audiences. People fell in love with SW in 1977 b/c Americans were feeling like crap after Vietnam and Watergate and Sw famously made them Feel Good. What of this? We here on GOT forums are used to GRRM's/D/S's bloodthirstiness and a GOT way of looking at the world. Has Rian brought this mentaliy to SW? Is is this illusion of despair....of Hope literally fading away...meant to be an illusion? Is the whole "Hope is like the Sun" a quote esp relevant for US audiences as it too eerily echoes real life? In this context Luke taking himself out in such a statement-making way (both to the watching Resistance and to theater audiences) a message that "You have to do this yourselves, we can't fight for you all the way"?

I put Lucas's Prologue from the ANH novel on my wall a few days ago. Read that, and see if it echoes the sate of our nation....the epicness of the political corruption. And that's just what we know so far! I've said "Who will be our Bail Organa and Mon Mothma, forming a secret govt faction dedicated to fighting it from within? B/c some things the Smallfolk CAN'T do....

 

Unfortunately, the EU is NOT dead, Darth Richard. A son named Ben?A Solo family member killing another Solo after going Dark? Luke having a crisis of confidence and becoming a hermit? They've been pretty cynical with buying the franchise but data mining the EU for plot points with switched or new characters. resembles what D/D have done with George's real and hinted at GOT book plots in Seasons 5-7 doesn't it? 

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Last post w/thoughts. As good as all this is, I still hate the "let the past die" motif they kept repeating ad nauseum. And Yoda's scene was great except for the line "we are the past that they grow away from" etc.It all too readily expresses Disney's "target the teens" by ditching the old folks. I notice they haven't ditched Artoo, Threepio or Chewie though. Only the humans. 

And yeah..what did you all think of Luke milking that huge multiple-uddered creature and drinking the milk with Rey watching? Wow how overt. Meant to be funny but it does get one wondering. No dad would do that in front of his grown daughter! Haha. On the other hand..oh well..didn't see that coming! 

Aw crap...got to get to bed, but one final thought: I've always found it curious that the name Rey is not so subtle evokes Rey of Light. Sun-Ray. Hope-Ray. Rey (Ray) of Light (Luc/Luke.) Maybe. The parenthood issue is still up in the air. Did anyone believe Kylo's story? NOPE. Maybe the strong connection between them is brother/sister but we don't know. We need to know the meaning of the vision she had when she touched the saber in TFA. 

Did anyone notice the sequence where she is talking about the Force and Luke walks around and the conversation continues with a close up of her facing the camera eyes closed as he looks at her at her shoulder behind her? Either this is epic foreshadowing or the greatest troll ever. I can't wait until w have screenshots. 

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Seent it again.

Similar feelings, left at the beginning of the Casino jail escape to pee and smoke some weed but somehow managed to come back with plenty of time left in the animal chase. I wasn't actually looking at the clock, but there must be some kind of time distortion effect. I thought I was outside for a hot minute, but STILL had to rest my eyes during the overindulgent flight.

Meanwhile, I'm now 99 percent sure that those were the Jedi texts in the Falcon's drawer at the end. And, of course it was a fake Luke. Blue lightsaber.

Visually stunning. Pretty much all of Rogue One was brilliantly shot, but it didn't have anything quite on the level of that ridiculous lightspeed Kamikazi (though that shot of the planetary debris breaking atmosphere near the death star is no low bar).

Story is absolutely as much of a disaster as many seem to think, and does not look better with repeated viewing. Though I will say that it sat better this time around, I kind of just let myself enjoy the brilliant acting that is in abundance (absent Hux and that Admiral Holdo, of course) in spite of the careless script.

I thought I noticed it before but I didn't want to say anything and be wrong, but I haven't seen anyone else mention it either so I'm feeling a little self-conscious but I'm going with it.

The turbolazer blasts arc.

From Snoke's ship.

In space.

Absent a gravity well.

 

It's not a one off either, it's most of them. The bolts are fired with an arc and 'fall' onto the cruisers and later the transport craft.

Something like that, combined with the other lazy narrative elements discussed at length already, leaves me deeply disturbed.

Who the fuck okayed some of these lines? The Dreadnaught at the beginning, they refer multiple times to its 'autocannons' which literally sounds like something that was meant as a placeholder.

Placeholder cannons would sound less obviously lazy.

Then you have the fact that the Holy Trilogy had more engaging space combat. Poe repeatedly violates the laws of physics in his X-wing in ways that are pathetically crude. I get that you want moneyshots and shit, and never let reality dictate what you're going to put on that screen.

But the way pretty much all of Poe's combat in this movie (all at the beginning) is done for cheap visuals that prompt little more than a raised eyebrow or shifted seat. Things like his repeated hairpin maneuvers provide all of the thrill of a well styled breakfast burrito with all of the buildup of a hair on the camera lens.

Let me explain

Did you see Interstellar? It doesn't matter. Any way, at this one point in the movie Matthew McCannahey is in a hurry while flying his ship and rejects the idea of slowing down with thrusters in favor of using the ship's aerodynamics to quickly and efficiently dump as much speed as necessary.

To this somewhat... unorthodox method of aeronautical influence, the accompanying robot says in a shocked voice "Airbrake!?!"

 

===

Anyway, so now we're on the same page. When the lander in Interstellar shifts itself so that the 'floor' is introduced to as much atmosphere as possible you feel it in your stomach as the craft decreases its speed suddenly and violently.

When Poe repeatedly 'airbrakes' in vacuum, it's just a cheap gimmick to show us the engines as he overcomes his inertia and jets back towards his target.

It was fine when they did that shit in FA not because all the dogfights actually took place in atmosphere (not the point here), but Poe's piloting exploits felt earned and real. He wasn't just making his ship go in a bunch of random different directions, we had clear connections to both Poe in his ship and relevant action elsewhere that gave us something grounded from which to be engaged in the action.

 

So anyways, I had an easier time with the 2nd trip. Rey is just amazing. Poe has so much skillz. And Finn possesses the kind of easy charisma that makes me angry at his wasted time in this runny mess.

Driver is really good too, his and Ridley's chemistry is undeniable.

I had a good time again. Though I think I was being generous with that score of 5 malfunctioning hyperdrives out of 10.

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I don't think we're completely done with Rey's backstory either.

And it was said both that they had ironed out Snoke's story and that we would not find it out in this film, so that was no surprise.

Also if ghost yoda can throw magic misiles around and he's been dead for 30 years I imagine we'll see more Luke in 9.

oh and yeah they are totally mining the EU for ideas. I just find that some people STILL insist on saying they're still canon and trying to fit these films in somehow to be frustrating and thought that may have been a bit of s sky get over it reference 

 

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One thing I will say in Holdo's defence - she's been criticised for not sharing the moon evacuation plan with the whole crew, but she may have had reason to suspect there was a spy on board (because the FO tracked them through a light speed jump). The plan ended in disaster when the wrong person (BdT) got to know about it. So even if she didn't suspect there was a spy, she may have decided that the safest thing was to keep the details of the moon under wraps until the last minute. 

 

Though she should still have said: there's a plan (other than just running away) but I can't tell you what it is yet. 

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1 hour ago, dog-days said:

One thing I will say in Holdo's defence - she's been criticised for not sharing the moon evacuation plan with the whole crew, but she may have had reason to suspect there was a spy on board (because the FO tracked them through a light speed jump). The plan ended in disaster when the wrong person (BdT) got to know about it. So even if she didn't suspect there was a spy, she may have decided that the safest thing was to keep the details of the moon under wraps until the last minute. 

 

Though she should still have said: there's a plan (other than just running away) but I can't tell you what it is yet. 

I think the whole "starship chase" would have worked better if it wasn't a magic tracking device and was instead a treacherous agent of the first order on the ship. It would have then made more sense why she was keeping her plans close to her as anyone - especially Poe (imprisoned and force mind interrogated by kylo ren) and Finn (ex raised from childhood stormtrooper). 

They never mentioned this though and there's a fine line between not spelling it out and simply letting fans explain blanks.

The other thing that this film/franchise does is create a lot of people who dislike things because they don't play out the way they want (myself included). As if something is flawed because it isn't their own fan fiction on screen. I think people who saw the original trilogy post 1984 would probably have been more angry with ESB at the time because it didn't go they way they wanted and because they hadn't seen the resolution in rotj. I remember hating the possibility Han was dead.

 

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