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Who do you like more? Aegon I or Robert Baratheon?


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32 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

I'm not a white male if that accounts for anything. I also don't see any 'white male prevalent ideas" in Georges writing either.

Neither am I. But the history I was taught at school was written by white males, praising the accomplishements of their kind. Conquest is a highly appreciated value in such narratives.

I can safely assume that the education you underwent yourself was no much different. Neither was GRRM's, for that matter.

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1 hour ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Robert was the instigator depending on whom you tend to believe. 

Um... we have a pretty widely corroborated account that Aerys demanded the murder of Robert Baratheon, who very rationally (and justifiably from a legal standpoint) resisted that notion.

If you mean to say that Viserys' telling of the Rebellion should be given equal weight to what we know to be the objective truth... well, there's a lot of real-world fake news sites you'll probably enjoy as well.

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1 hour ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Neither am I. But the history I was taught at school was written by white males, praising the accomplishements of their kind. Conquest is a highly appreciated value in such narratives.

I can safely assume that the education you underwent yourself was no much different. Neither was GRRM's, for that matter.

 I know what you mean by that, I don't necessarily blame George for his stories of Aegon and others, but I get what you mean. George is just copying history, well not copying, but using it as a reference point, and history was largely written by you know whom. But I get what you mean.

 

At the other guy, I wasn't referring to Viserys. The kidnapping & rape of Lyanna was the at the root of Robert's Rebellion. Robert is the one cited as the first to claim Lyanna was raped. So depending on who it is, Robert was the instigator of the War Of The Usurper.

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18 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

At the other guy, I wasn't referring to Viserys. The kidnapping & rape of Lyanna was the at the root of Robert's Rebellion. Robert is the one cited as the first to claim Lyanna was raped. So depending on who it is, Robert was the instigator of the War Of The Usurper.

Actually, the kidnapping and rape of Lyanna was explicitly not the beginning of the Rebellion.  The text is abundantly clear that the Arryns, Starks, and Baratheons raise their banners in revolt only after Aerys calls for the heads of Robert and Ned, which is after he murders Brandon and Rickard, which is after the abduction of Lyanna.

Robert may have disregarded any loyalty or love for Rhaegar when he hears that Lyanna was abducted, but the timeline literally cannot be any clearer, that he only revolts months after hearing of her abduction.

Seriously, read the books.  Being wrong is one thing.  Defending an obviously misstated fact is unforgivable.

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3 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Actually, the kidnapping and rape of Lyanna was explicitly not the beginning of the Rebellion.  The text is abundantly clear that the Arryns, Starks, and Baratheons raise their banners in revolt only after Aerys calls for the heads of Robert and Ned, which is after he murders Brandon and Rickard, which is after the abduction of Lyanna.

Robert may have disregarded any loyalty or love for Rhaegar when he hears that Lyanna was abducted, but the timeline literally cannot be any clearer, that he only revolts months after hearing of her abduction.

Seriously, read the books.  Being wrong is one thing.  Defending an obviously misstated fact is unforgivable.

 Don't imply I haven't read the books, because I think I've proven since my time here that I've done so. I'm currently doing a re-read and about to finish A Storm Of Swords, thank you, get over yourself.. I said the exact thing you just said in another thread this morning. Again, like I said, the supposed raping and kidnapping of Lyanna can be seen as the root of the reasons for The War Of The Usurper, Brandon takes Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the TQoLaB as a slight and an insult to her honor, the exact reason why is never stated, but one would have to assume it's because she was already bethrothed and Rhaegar was married with children. Robert initially had little issue with what Rhaegar did at the Tourney of Harrenhal, for whatever reason though it festered, Robert gained a hatred for Rhaegar. Lyanna is taken by Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, & Whent, months after the fact, Robert is cited as claiming Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. Brandon went to Kings Landing to demand his sister, she wasn't there, Aerys imprisoned Brandon and sent for Rickard, if he wanted his son he'd have to come to Kings Landing to get him, he killed both of them. After this Aerys sends to Arryn and demands the heads of Robert & Ned, Jon Arryn denies and raises his banners, the rebellion is begun. The kidnapping and "raping" of Lyanna was the root of all of this. What exactly is the problem?

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On 16/12/2017 at 11:26 AM, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Robert is portrayed in the series as a person with actual human virtues and vices, someone that we can really like or dislike according to how his personality resonates (subjectively) with each reader. Personally I don't like him, but I have some sympathy for him and I appreciate the few positive aspects of his character.

Aegon, on the other hand, is just an historical figure, glorified for accomplishments that are very much appreciated by the 'white male' prevalent ideas of both 'his' and 'our' worlds. I have nothing for him to make me like or dislike him for the person that he was, except for my generic dislike for conquerors. So it wouldn't be a fair comparison.

I am a "white male" but my distaste for conquerors is the same, hence Aegon I loses by default for me. Though "conquest being good' is not a "white male narrative". It's a narrative of anyone who conquered.

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I don't prefer none of them actually, but i guess i go with Aegon if i really have to choose one. The reason being that he wasn't simply a conqueror, he unified Westeros and lend the ground for laws and rules to be created, even if they were flawed, but again, isn't it always?

Robert on the other hand, he pretty much conquered what Aegon created. Robert didn't unify Westeros, he didn't create new rules, he didn't do anything new, he pretty much sat on a throne made with the swords of Aegon's enemies, and used the income of his own people for his own pleasures while neglecting them just like he did with his children. Truth being told, Robert himself looked like a child, i guess maybe he was too medieval for me.

I liked reading about Robert at first, he was funny, but as i got older, i started to dislike him greatly. He lived in a world that was all about him, and the others were there to please him only. Robert took Ned from his own home, from his own children and wife, and put him to take care of a bunch of snakes he knew Ned hated, and Robert kept using people's gold for his own pleasures, it was always his intention. Robert has pretty much destroyed the life of everyone he had some form of "relationship" with.

The fact that he is human makes him very interesting to read though, but to say i like him as a person? no, just no.

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I find the ability of Robert to make friends out of enemies by drinking, joking, and wenching to be a bit charming. It's not a skill many people have. Charisma, perhaps? Even Stannis envied it. You can fault a man for being forgiving and merciful, but they are also often cited as virtues. Though we can question the nuances of why Robert allowed himself to be the head of a rebellion (i.e., did he really love Lyanna or just the idea of her?), he wasn't a conqueror. I don't really think highly of Aegon deciding to conquer and reign over people they essentially believed to be inferior to Valyrians.

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31 minutes ago, Traverys said:

Though we can question the nuances of why Robert allowed himself to be the head of a rebellion (i.e., did he really love Lyanna or just the idea of her?), he wasn't a conqueror.

Robert was where he wanted to be, at the centre of everything, we learn from Cersei in AFFC how much he loved attention. Robert was a natural born fighter, a conqueror through and through. I don't remember in which book this happens, but Robert was attracted to the idea of conquering the Summer Isles, he only didn't do so because Jon Arryn advised him how foolish that would be.

 

31 minutes ago, Traverys said:

I don't really think highly of Aegon deciding to conquer and reign over people they essentially believed to be inferior to Valyrians.

Yes, Aegon probably saw the others as inferior, the Targaryens could ride Dragons afterall, but Aegon planned his conquest of Westeros very very carefully. He did not underestimate those he was about to fight against, even if he saw them as inferior, so there is that.

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13 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Yes, Aegon probably saw the others as inferior, the Targaryens could ride Dragons afterall, but Aegon planned his conquest of Westeros very very carefully. He did not underestimate those he was about to fight againts, even if he saw them as inferior, so there is that.

Right, and there's the whole Rite of Conquest thing, but doesn't mean I have to like it.

13 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

Robert was where he wanted to be, at the centre of everything, we learn from Cersei in AFFC how much he loved attention. Robert was a natural born fighter, a conqueror through and through. I don't remember in which book this happen, but Robert was attracted to the idea of conquering the Summer Isles, he only didn't do so because Jon Arryn advised him how foolish that would be.

I think this is the quote you're thinking of:

Beneath his jewels and feathers, Xho was little more than a wellborn beggar. Robert could have put an end to his importuning for good with one firm "No," but the notion of conquering the Summer Isles had appealed to her drunken lout of a husband

It doesn't mean he was a conqueror. His motivation to attack the Summer Isles was a drunken fantasy and the reason he considered it is, by my impression, that he was looking for an excuse to swing his warhammer. It's not the most noble of intentions, but Robert liked to battle. Everyone has flaws. I find that flaw a bit easier to chew but still distasteful.

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1 hour ago, Traverys said:

It doesn't mean he was a conqueror. His motivation to attack the Summer Isles was a drunken fantasy

It's true, Cersei considers Robert a drunk, but there is no mention of him actually being drunk when he considered that. For me it's just what Robert is, Robert loved anything more than fighting, he was the heir to a Great House, and he lived in medieval times, glory is everything for people like him.

His tragedy is that, what he loves doing has it's consequences, as he learned when he sat on the Iron Throne.

 

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23 minutes ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

It's true, Cersei considers Robert a drunk, but there is no mention of him actually being drunk when he considered that. For me it's just what Robert is, Robert loved anything more than fighting, he was the heir to a Great House, and he lived in medieval times, glory is everything for people like him.

His tragedy is that, what he loves doing has it's consequences, as he learned when he sat on the Iron Throne.

 

Yeah for sure. He loved battle but that means, by extension, that he'd prefer more war and less peace. I see him as a very tragic character, and deeply, deeply unhappy despite him constantly surrounding himself with people who smile and laugh.

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On 2017-12-18 at 10:15 PM, cpg2016 said:

Yeah... I don't think you're reading the actual comments, which focus heavily on his partying lifestyle, not on his greater characterization.

Plus, we have a fair bit of characterization for Aegon; a man who loves a wife (Rhaenys), who has an overarching vision for Westeros.  A man of arrogance, and one who understands mercy.  Who understands when to fight and when to compromise.  Who understands the mechanics of royal governance, who not only demands fealty from his new subjects, but assimilates to their culture as well.

How much more do we know about Robert, really?  He has no character growth, either; from the moment Lyanna is kidnapped to the moment he dies, the only things we know about Robert are his love of battle, love of wine, dislike of responsibility, and his excusal of all that by putting Lyanna on a pedestal and claiming that everything that happens once she was "taken" from him is not his fault.

Being a partyboy is part of his characterization. And we still have more on Robert because we know of his political reign and we meet him as a person, can firsthand observe, not just be told, about his family life and we get several characters thinking their biased thoughts about him, this way or that, giving us further characterization of him.

All in all it gives us a person of flesh and blood with both vices and virtues. In Aegon's case we never see anything to form our own judgement on him, we only get to hear about stuff from source that's very distant from Aegon.

On 2017-12-18 at 10:21 PM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Robert was the instigator depending on whom you tend to believe. 

I prefer Aegon, not a big fan of Robert Baratheon, I just see him as a brute.

Robert didn't instigate anything. Either you can say that Aerys did it or that Jon Arryn did it. Robert had about nothing to do with it.

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10 hours ago, Dofs said:

I am a "white male" but my distaste for conquerors is the same, hence Aegon I loses by default for me. Though "conquest being good' is not a "white male narrative". It's a narrative of anyone who conquered.

Being one does not necessarily means that you adhere to the ideology, just like not being one does not equal that you're not influenced or that you're not a supporter. Anyway, I did not intend to start a debate on white male ideology, I was only using it as an examble, as one of the reasons why conquerors are so widely admired. It's because most of us are taught to admire them.

 

On 19/12/2017 at 2:23 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

At the other guy, I wasn't referring to Viserys. The kidnapping & rape of Lyanna was the at the root of Robert's Rebellion. Robert is the one cited as the first to claim Lyanna was raped. So depending on who it is, Robert was the instigator of the War Of The Usurper.

I do not remember reading anywhere that Robert was the first to claim anything at all about Lyanna's abduction. That she was kidnapped and raped was the general belief because, surprise, that was exactly what it looked like. I know that it will (most likely) be a rare case when it is actually not what it looks like, but that's for us readers to speculate, and "present" timeline characters to eventually find out, but that's not the case for the protagonists of the Lyanna's abduction clusterfuck. In any case, don't you think that Rhaegar had a responsibility (to the realm) to come out and clarify his actions, instead of hiding away and only come in the end to fight for Aerys?

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2 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Being one does not necessarily means that you adhere to the ideology, just like not being one does not equal that you're not influenced or that you're not a supporter. Anyway, I did not intend to start a debate on white male ideology, I was only using it as an examble, as one of the reasons why conquerors are so widely admired. It's because most of us are taught to admire them.

 

I do not remember reading anywhere that Robert was the first to claim anything at all about Lyanna's abduction. That she was kidnapped and raped was the general belief because, surprise, that was exactly what it looked like. I know that it will (most likely) be a rare case when it is actually not what it looks like, but that's for us readers to speculate, and "present" timeline characters to eventually find out, but that's not the case for the protagonists of the Lyanna's abduction clusterfuck. In any case, don't you think that Rhaegar had a responsibility (to the realm) to come out and clarify his actions, instead of hiding away and only come in the end to fight for Aerys?

 It's said more than once that Lyanna being kidnapped and raped was a Robert and Stark claim before becoming a "general belief" along with the slight of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the QoLaB. And no I don't think Rhaegar had "responsibility", but thats just me, and why does no one mention the Northern Free Folk tradition, of women expecting to be kidnapped before they're married by the abductor, when speaking of Rhaegar & Lyanna's responsibility? Especially in Lyanna's case whom is always said to have a touch of wildeness in her, by even her own family. 

 

 According to Robert Baratheon, Rhaegar raped Lyanna "hundreds of times".

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lyanna_Stark

 

Quote

In marriage, the men are expected to be quite forceful with women, going so far as stealing them from their home or clan. The women, in turn, are expected to put up a fight every step of the way.[3] It is believed that a true man will steal a woman from afar to strengthen the clan. Men must steal daughters, but not wives of other men. When the red wanderer is within the Moonmaid, it is considered a propitious time for a man to steal a woman.[15] 

 

 

awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Free_folk

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2 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 It's said more than once that Lyanna being kidnapped and raped was a Robert and Stark claim before becoming a "general belief" along with the slight of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the QoLaB. And no I don't think Rhaegar had "responsibility", but thats just me, and why does no one mention the Northern Free Folk tradition, of women expecting to be kidnapped before they're married by the abductor, when speaking of Rhaegar & Lyanna's responsibility? Especially in Lyanna's case whom is always said to have a touch of wildeness in her, by even her own family. 

Quotes from the books, please.

And, freefolk tradition applies to freefolk. No one else in Westeros practices kidnapping as a marriage ritual. Last time I checked, none of the involved people were freefolk. (Jon Snow is a northerner. You can read his opinion on the relevant freefolk custom in his debate with Ygritte, in Jon III, ASOS).

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8 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said:

Quotes from the books, please.

And, freefolk tradition applies to freefolk. No one else in Westeros practices kidnapping as a marriage ritual. Last time I checked, none of the involved people were freefolk. (Jon Snow is a northerner. You can read his opinion on the relevant freefolk custom in his debate with Ygritte, in Jon III, ASOS).

 There's only two characters in the book whom explicitly state that Rhaegar kidnapped & raped Lyanna..Robert Baratheon and Bran Stark. That can't be disputed. The other claims of kidnap and rape come in ambiguous natures and are unreliable at most. Again, this can't be disputed. Robert explicitly claims so because he can't grasp the fact that his betrothed was in love with someone else, and Bran is going by a story he was told, he wasn't around to actually know what happened, anyway. I'll try to find some exact quotes for you however, if you insist.

 

And I've read Jon's conversation with Ygritte, yet Jon is another Stark, whom is a Northerner and spent time with the free folk, came to respect them, and invited them into his company AFTER returning to the Night's Watch in part from this respect and the threat of The Others. Jon also practices some freefolk traditions when it comes to Ygritte, like her burial, I believe. Two examples of Starks whom did similar free folk things for the sake of love.

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12 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 According to Robert Baratheon, Rhaegar raped Lyanna "hundreds of times".

More than likely he's salty that he didn't get his Stark bride, indeed the whole reason he proposes the match between Joffrey and Sansa is because he and Lyanna couldn't.

 

23 hours ago, theMADdestScientist_ said:

I don't remember in which book this happens, but Robert was attracted to the idea of conquering the Summer Isles, he only didn't do so because Jon Arryn advised him how foolish that would be.

Feast, Cersei V and Cersei VIII

 

On 20/12/2017 at 11:39 AM, Traverys said:

(i.e., did he really love Lyanna or just the idea of her?

Given that Ned corrects him about whether Lyanna would argue with him about competing in the melee amongst other things hints towards the fact the he never knew her at all, indeed the only time we know of them meeting each other was at Harrenhal, nor do we know of them exchanging letters in the time that they were betrothed.

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On 12/19/2017 at 4:46 PM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

 Don't imply I haven't read the books, because I think I've proven since my time here that I've done so. I'm currently doing a re-read and about to finish A Storm Of Swords, thank you, get over yourself.. I said the exact thing you just said in another thread this morning. Again, like I said, the supposed raping and kidnapping of Lyanna can be seen as the root of the reasons for The War Of The Usurper, Brandon takes Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the TQoLaB as a slight and an insult to her honor, the exact reason why is never stated, but one would have to assume it's because she was already bethrothed and Rhaegar was married with children. Robert initially had little issue with what Rhaegar did at the Tourney of Harrenhal, for whatever reason though it festered, Robert gained a hatred for Rhaegar. Lyanna is taken by Rhaegar, Arthur Dayne, & Whent, months after the fact, Robert is cited as claiming Lyanna was kidnapped and raped. Brandon went to Kings Landing to demand his sister, she wasn't there, Aerys imprisoned Brandon and sent for Rickard, if he wanted his son he'd have to come to Kings Landing to get him, he killed both of them. After this Aerys sends to Arryn and demands the heads of Robert & Ned, Jon Arryn denies and raises his banners, the rebellion is begun. The kidnapping and "raping" of Lyanna was the root of all of this. What exactly is the problem?

The problem is that you were either dropped during birth or after it. 

Aerys demanded Robert's head, full stop. And this was after an incident that Rhaegar instigated, not Robert. Rhaegar was the one who deliberately broke a betrothal between two Great Houses, regardless of whether he kidnapped Lyanna or if she went willingly. 

Apparently readers are also susceptible to Targaryen madness, because it's been a long time since I've seen this kind of idiocy.  

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