Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Tygett Lannister

What will happen in Vale [TWOW spoliers]

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Scorpion92 said:

There is no way in hell that Littlefinger told Alayne/Sansa his true gameplan with these Vale lords, he never disclosed his true motives and ambitions to anyone, I doubt that he started now. His plan to marry Alayne to Harry the Heir is not his true plan at all. I think he is grooming Alayne to play the game of thrones as best as she can, but he also wants her to be dependent on him, that is his lusty, Tully fetish side - as in being Sansa's pimp for life.

He has titles now (Lord of Harrenhal, Lord Paramount of the Trident, and Lord Protector of the Vale), he has money, and the only thing he misses to have a true power in Westeros is an army. He is also very greedy and not content, he wants everything there is, and I believe his ultimate goal is to rule Westeros behind the scenes (because he is smart enough to understand he will never sit that iron chair, and it is better to stay in shadows and pull the strings of the puppets).

With all that in mind, and the fact that he is ordering Robert Arryn's poisoning, I believe Harry the Heir is an obstacle for him to gain full control of Vale banners in the immediate future. Harry is a full grown knight and man, and if he becomes Lord of the Eyrie, Littlefinger loses the game because he will have no influence over this man, and he potentially loses Sansa as his pawn because she also will not need him anymore and be independent with Lord of the Eyrie as her husband. 

I also agree that Winged Knights idea is to have hostages by the end of this tournament to solidify Littlefinger's power over some of these Vale lords. Littlefinger knows that Westeros is in chaos right now (some of which he created), and the opportunity to take advantage is now. He needs a considerable army to further his ambitions, and he needs it very soon.

What I think LF plans is to include Harry the Heir into Winged Knights so he takes control of the man away from the Waynwoods, also take on several others into the order as unofficial hostages to ensure Vale lords behave (Mychel Redfort, maybe even Lyn Corbray to better control the man as I doubt Littlefinger completely trusts the man, etc.), also manipulate Sansa into making Harry fall in love with her and marry her which is crucial because everyone in the Vale needs to know of this publicly, then dispose of Harry by "an accident" as soon as Sansa is pregnant, then get rid of Robert Arryn not long after and command the Vale through Sansa's kid (who might be his own).

Ultimately, I do believe Littlefinger's original plan will go to hell once something bad happens to Harry the Heir (he might have fathered some of his bastards by forcing himself onto the ladies, therefore, when Sansa plays too hard to get, he will try to rape her or something, I just think Harry is not "a knight in shining armor" type at all), where LF will have to adjust his plans and cancel his orders on poisoning Robert Arryn. Not to mention that I believe Sansa will nurture the little boy to good health, so she will have more and more influence on him. 

Yeah, the Vale storyline promises to be very good, and I can't wait.

I don't think he is honest with Sansa about everything but some things are I think his plan. I do believe he is trying to educate Sansa, that she will be able to manipulate Harrold while LF would manipulate her. Other option is Lyn Corbray kills (like Mountain kills Ser Huge) Harrold in tournament by orders of LF. Though I think story would be to repetitive if we have another "accident" at the tournament. With Harrold dead LF could install a Arryn of Gulltown and we know LF is boss of Gulltown so he would probably have influence over him. But I think story is already to full of characters that Harrold will probably survive and inherit Vale eventually.

Sweet Robin is not Littlefinger's son. It thematically matches LF killing his son but there is just no proof.

I don't think Harrold is a rapist, he is a classic fuckboi.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Royce vs Royce, unlikely.

Royce vs Royce is the cornerstone of Vale politics, it is the prop for this whole storyline. Nestor behind his defences will turn to swords before letting the Gates go, and Yohn will call the banners before letting Nestor have it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Yes you are right I wasn't sure before. But I find it unlikely Clansmen would be accepted as rulers since they are kind alike Wildlings to North.

Don't really think LF wants chaos and civil war in Vale.

The Clansmen could take Vale just as Roose took Winterfell.   Conquest.   Considering Little Finger is stirring chaos, what beyond civil war is possible.  

3 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Royce vs Royce, unlikely.

 

Yes I checked some Clansmen returned and it is reported clansmen somehow got steel. And I feel like his year barely started, remember entire story is now lasting for some 3 years right?

I don't know why Royces would ever have claim to Winterfell I guess you must have made a blunder there. Roose didn't get North through inheritance. Roose Bolton got North as reward for his "loyalty" to the crown after it was revoked from Starks by King Joffrey. She is Sweet Robins blood relative but usually inheritance goes down the family tree not up or horizontal (not sure if you know what I mean). Harry is without doubt heir of Sweet Robin and it makes all the sense his bastards would be next in line unless that lost daughter shows up with a son. Bastards could inherit when there would be no other options. Especially since you would get people fighting for influence over them because bastard claim is still weaker and they need more support. Well most of the lords wouldn't care if Robb disinherited her because only reason was her being hostage.

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

Nah, I didn't blunder at all, perhaps all our memories are not what they once were.  The Royce cousins were good enough for Cat to remind Robb of instead of Jon Snow for heir.  Cat clearly feels these distant Vale cousins would be more suitable heirs than Jon Snow, Ned's bastard son. Nonetheless, power resides where men believe it resides.   Whether Harry's bastard or Robert's cousin inherited the seat would depend on who had the most support.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

Timmet, son of Timmet of the Burned Men, led his people back to the Vale, and they have been raiding very intensely now that they have real steal weapons. Timmet is also the interesting one, because he is the only who could theoretically be the true heir, and there is also the connection between the Burned men and Nettles.

Shaga, son of Dolf, took his men into the Kingswood.

IDK who would be the heir after Harry.  He has a kid sure, but now were talking a bastard daughter through a lowborn.  Surely as someone else pointed out the Gulltown Aryns would push a claim.  My guess is that is a civil war.  Which could even be what LF wants.

Thanks for making me feel better about my memory, Arya.   I knew some of those fierce clansmen made it home...with good steel, as Tyrion promised.  Do you recall if Timmet is the son of the stolen Arryn daughter?   It will be very interesting to see if the Clansmen can take the Vale, as Tyrion also promised.   I stated above that I believe you're right and civil war or at the very least, serious dissention, is the object of Little Finger's chaos making in the Vale.   It's interesting to get objective (like that's ever easy) and weigh Little Finger's plans.   He's an opportunist for sure and he seems to be clearing a definite line between the houses of the Vale.   I hope Timmet Son of Timmet catch him and feed his man parts to a goat.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

There is no way in hell that Littlefinger told Alayne/Sansa his true gameplan with these Vale lords, he never disclosed his true motives and ambitions to anyone, I doubt that he started now. His plan to marry Alayne to Harry the Heir is not his true plan at all. I think he is grooming Alayne to play the game of thrones as best as she can, but he also wants her to be dependent on him, that is his lusty, Tully fetish side - as in being Sansa's pimp for life.

Are you kidding?  Littlefinger isn't a believable villain in large part because he's SO obvious about his plans and machinations.  He brags to everyone about his intelligence and ability to scheme, to their faces!  He'll absolutely tell Sansa his plans, because part of his delusion is that Catelyn loved him and Sansa will too.

2 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Ultimately, I do believe Littlefinger's original plan will go to hell once something bad happens to Harry the Heir (he might have fathered some of his bastards by forcing himself onto the ladies, therefore, when Sansa plays too hard to get, he will try to rape her or something, I just think Harry is not "a knight in shining armor" type at all), where LF will have to adjust his plans and cancel his orders on poisoning Robert Arryn. Not to mention that I believe Sansa will nurture the little boy to good health, so she will have more and more influence on him. 

I think it's pretty clear that Littlefinger's plan is to control Harry the Heir through Sansa.  I mean, this is the self-delusion that is so self-evident in his entire plotline.  He wants two things - the power and respect that comes with being a great lord, and Catelyn Tully (or her similar-looking daughter).  But he cannot have both - if he tries to gain power by using Sansa to take control of the Eyrie and Winterfell (the former through Harry, the latter through her own person) then he gives up Sansa herself, and visa versa.

His plot obviously ends with a witness to Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned blabbing to an independently-empowered Sansa.  After all, if LF's control of the Vale is based on Sansa controlling Harry for him, then he's only the very quick step of Sansa turning on him from losing everything (because he's universally hated otherwise).  And again, he was/is delusional about Catelyn loving him, and has clearly convinced himself or is in the process of convincing himself that Sansa will too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Are you kidding?  Littlefinger isn't a believable villain in large part because he's SO obvious about his plans and machinations.  He brags to everyone about his intelligence and ability to scheme, to their faces!  He'll absolutely tell Sansa his plans, because part of his delusion is that Catelyn loved him and Sansa will too.

I think it's pretty clear that Littlefinger's plan is to control Harry the Heir through Sansa.  I mean, this is the self-delusion that is so self-evident in his entire plotline.  He wants two things - the power and respect that comes with being a great lord, and Catelyn Tully (or her similar-looking daughter).  But he cannot have both - if he tries to gain power by using Sansa to take control of the Eyrie and Winterfell (the former through Harry, the latter through her own person) then he gives up Sansa herself, and visa versa.

His plot obviously ends with a witness to Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned blabbing to an independently-empowered Sansa.  After all, if LF's control of the Vale is based on Sansa controlling Harry for him, then he's only the very quick step of Sansa turning on him from losing everything (because he's universally hated otherwise).  And again, he was/is delusional about Catelyn loving him, and has clearly convinced himself or is in the process of convincing himself that Sansa will too.

Well, if his plan is to rule the Vale through Sansa's manipulation of Harry, then it is very stupid because as things are now he has power over the Vale more secure being Lord Robert Arryn's protector. If Harry becomes Lord, he is of legal age and more affiliated with Waynwoods. That will essentially put Lady Anya Waynwood in "behind the throne" power status.

I completely agree with you that Littlefinger's demise is ultimately connected to Sansa in the position of power turning her back on him after all his machinations and betrayals are revealed. I just do not think it will happen in the Vale, it will happen in Winterfell - the maid slaying a giant in a castle made of snow.

And I do not think Harry will survive the Winds of Winter, his importance revolves around the potential title of Lord of the Vale. Since I do not see Sweetrobin dying anytime soon, I believe Harry is very redundant story wise once he serves his purpose in Sansa and Littlefinger's sub-story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Thanks for making me feel better about my memory, Arya.   I knew some of those fierce clansmen made it home...with good steel, as Tyrion promised.  Do you recall if Timmet is the son of the stolen Arryn daughter?   It will be very interesting to see if the Clansmen can take the Vale, as Tyrion also promised.   I stated above that I believe you're right and civil war or at the very least, serious dissention, is the object of Little Finger's chaos making in the Vale.   It's interesting to get objective (like that's ever easy) and weigh Little Finger's plans.   He's an opportunist for sure and he seems to be clearing a definite line between the houses of the Vale.   I hope Timmet Son of Timmet catch him and feed his man parts to a goat.    

To my knowledge there is no proof, or even evidence of any kind that Timmet is the son of the carried of Aryn woman.  However it is theoretically possible because it was the Burned men who carried her off.  It's one of those theories that shouldn't really be taken as fact or counted on in any way because its really just wishful thinking.  That being said, it's still possible, Tyrion did promise them the Vale, and a Lannister always pays his debts.  I do love the possibility of Tyrion flying Viserion to the Vale as Visenya did on Vhagar.  But its all wishful thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-12-15 at 10:14 PM, Nevets said:

I think that the Vale is primarily important because it is the current location of one of the main characters (Sansa).  Its role will be to showcase Sansa's transition from a pawn into a player.

Myranda Royce certainly knows who Sansa is, and I expect that her father Nestor does too.  I wouldn't be surprised if Yohn Royce knows, as well as Lady Waynwood (Harry's guardian).  Sansa's first test will be to realize this and to get them on her side.

Sansa is not going to marry Harry the Heir.  She may string things along to please Littefinger, but won't do anything she cannot get out of.  She has no interest in marriage at this time, and can probably use her marriage to Tyrion to avoid it for the time being.

Littlefinger hold hostages?  Him and what army?  He barely has a household guard.  If he is having to hire the likes of the Mad Mouse, I seriously doubt that he has the manpower to hold on to well-connected hostages.

Sansa has yet to deliberately hurt another human being.   I can see absolutely no reason for her to deliberately kill an 8 year old who she likes and is a relative.  I do expect her to come to the realization that somebody needs to be killed - but that someone is Littlefinger.

 

 

If they swear their swords to Sweetrobin they become hostages by honor, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Purpose of the Winged Knights may be to provide Sansa with experience regarding an array of men and how they can or can't be motivated to fight. Push comes to shove, some of the Winged Knights stay faithful to Sweetrobin, even against their own blood, courageously laying down their own lives, some turn cloak, bend the knee, others simply run. It may all just be for Sansa to observe, experience for the main game where she will be manipulating the KG.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The Clansmen could take Vale just as Roose took Winterfell.   Conquest.   Considering Little Finger is stirring chaos, what beyond civil war is possible.  

Roose was granted Winterfell though he did hold it de facto before that, but officially Winterfell was granted to him by King Joffrey. LF caused chaos so Seven Kingdoms went to war and once everyone is done fighting he can come in with strong untouched army from Vale. Chaos in Vale doesn't benefits him.

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn V

"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son." She considered a moment. "Your father's father had no siblings, but his father had a sister who married a younger son of Lord Raymar Royce, of the junior branch. They had three daughters, all of whom wed Vale lordlings. A Waynwood and a Corbray, for certain. The youngest . . . it might have been a Templeton, but . . ."

Nah, I didn't blunder at all, perhaps all our memories are not what they once were.  The Royce cousins were good enough for Cat to remind Robb of instead of Jon Snow for heir.  Cat clearly feels these distant Vale cousins would be more suitable heirs than Jon Snow, Ned's bastard son. Nonetheless, power resides where men believe it resides.   Whether Harry's bastard or Robert's cousin inherited the seat would depend on who had the most support. 

Oh I didn't know about that. Cat wanted anything but Jon, technically Royces could have strongest claim to North once all Ned's children are dead, though I think Jon being legitimized and lord of North is far more likely than Royces coming to it.

13 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Are you kidding?  Littlefinger isn't a believable villain in large part because he's SO obvious about his plans and machinations.  He brags to everyone about his intelligence and ability to scheme, to their faces!  He'll absolutely tell Sansa his plans, because part of his delusion is that Catelyn loved him and Sansa will too.

He is not obvious and he can't really hide being schemer since he schemes so much. For example Doran can hide it since he only has one secret big plot, he is so good at hiding it people think he is stupid.

11 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

I completely agree with you that Littlefinger's demise is ultimately connected to Sansa in the position of power turning her back on him after all his machinations and betrayals are revealed. I just do not think it will happen in the Vale, it will happen in Winterfell - the maid slaying a giant in a castle made of snow.

I think Sansa will probably cause demise of Littlefinger but I don't think that will happen in Winterfell. I think at this point invading North is impossible. Winter is in Riverlands and Winterfell is "besieged" by snow. Littlefinger-Sansa story can move to Riverlands (Harrenhall) or stay in Vale, they can't go North, only South.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Littlefinger will try to rape Sansa.

He was to busy now but after the tournament he will have the time yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Oh I didn't know about that. Cat wanted anything but Jon, technically Royces could have strongest claim to North once all Ned's children are dead, though I think Jon being legitimized and lord of North is far more likely than Royces coming to it.

We all retain different information from this long story.  I was offended by your accusation of a blunder.  That was a mean thing to say.   It's not cool to accuse people of being stupid or inept for not remembering.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

We all retain different information from this long story.  I was offended by your accusation of a blunder.  That was a mean thing to say.   It's not cool to accuse people of being stupid or inept for not remembering.  

Didn't mean to offend you, sorry. Blunder was a wrong word to use, but I couldn't find better one at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Well, if his plan is to rule the Vale through Sansa's manipulation of Harry, then it is very stupid because as things are now he has power over the Vale more secure being Lord Robert Arryn's protector. If Harry becomes Lord, he is of legal age and more affiliated with Waynwoods. That will essentially put Lady Anya Waynwood in "behind the throne" power status.

Right... this is the whole point!  He wants to rule the Vale (or just power in general), but he also wants Sansa.  He can't have both, but he has deluded himself into thinking he can.  He's sitting there teaching Sansa all the tricks and ploys that she'll use to turn on him, revealing his plans and how critical she is to them, and never seems to think someone will outsmart him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

He is not obvious and he can't really hide being schemer since he schemes so much. For example Doran can hide it since he only has one secret big plot, he is so good at hiding it people think he is stupid.

He literally tells Ned not to trust him.  He sits in a Small Council meeting cracking inappropriate dick jokes.  He walks around looking like a guy up to no good, "smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered into Queen Cersei's ear...".  This is a man who not only must be smarter and cleverer than everyone else, but has a pathological desire to make sure everyone else knows it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Didn't mean to offend you, sorry. Blunder was a wrong word to use, but I couldn't find better one at the time.

Thanks, I appreciate that.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

He literally tells Ned not to trust him.  He sits in a Small Council meeting cracking inappropriate dick jokes.  He walks around looking like a guy up to no good, "smiling slyly and stroking his beard as he whispered into Queen Cersei's ear...".  This is a man who not only must be smarter and cleverer than everyone else, but has a pathological desire to make sure everyone else knows it.

Yeah and Ned is like: "This turd is trying to be funny again." LF mostly acts like he wants to be seen as cool kid and friend of everyone ready to serve them rather than showing he is the smartest guy in the world. He has no ego (if he does he doesn't displays it), he let's people insult him and reacts back with humor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tygett Lannister said:

Yeah and Ned is like: "This turd is trying to be funny again." LF mostly acts like he wants to be seen as cool kid and friend of everyone ready to serve them rather than showing he is the smartest guy in the world. He has no ego (if he does he doesn't displays it), he let's people insult him and reacts back with humor.

Ned may not get it, but others do.  People realize he is untrustworthy and social climber, but don't realize how dangerous he is because of the prejudice of their class (against those without lands and armies).  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Ned may not get it, but others do.  People realize he is untrustworthy and social climber, but don't realize how dangerous he is because of the prejudice of their class (against those without lands and armies).  

Yes and Littlefinger abuses that. It is hard to cover up social climbing and ambition.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×