Universal Sword Donor Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 I sure am. My continual posting and bringing up of certain theories makes up the majority of the thread shifts and posts here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said: In fairness that would have been the case whoever she had married. Same goes for the Tyrells and Wylas is not being perceived as a monster. Bearing in mind that the typical age for a noble man/woman to marry in medieval Europe was 14, okay she is a little bit younger but not by much. If she hadn't been married off to Tyrion she would have been to someone else. That was politically unavoidable in the context of the game they are all playing. I feel that in order to really enjoy this series we must leave our 21 century morality aside a bit and try to immerse ourselves in the world George has created and what was customary in that world. Okay, yes, Tyrion objected somewhat, as Dany and say the Braavosi object to slavery but we cannot understand the characters actions and motivations if we filter them with our own present times moral codes. Besides, I really don't think that Tywin gave a damn lol That's not exactly true. Some cases of marriage to young girls can be seen in medieval records, but studies have shown that average ages of first marriage fluctuated through time and across regions between 16 and mid-to-late 20s. It's important to remember that the onset of puberty was about two years later than it is now, so most girls would not be considered eligible until 14 or so, and times of unusual stress, such as the Black Death, would drive the marriage age down because the pool of available spouses, both male and female, was diminished. Cases of very young girls being married off to middle-age or older men were relatively few and far between. Then as now, people were primarily concerned with producing healthy children, and the best way to do that is by marrying healthy young men to healthy young women whose bodies were up to the arduous task of childbirth. But your point about leaving 21st century morality aside is well taken. It's how we come to see that Lady O would not be overly concerned even if Joffrey was threatening to beat Margaery because the real prize, to her way of thinking, is the child that Margaery will bear, not her happiness. For Lady O to take the extreme step of killing the king, she would have to be absolutely convinced that she would not survive the night with Joffrey, and there is no reason whatsoever for her to think this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 19 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: I sure am. My continual posting and bringing up of certain theories makes up the majority of the thread shifts and posts here. Lol, that's my goal too: to enlighten and engage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Well engagement is important. Enlightenment might come eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoodedCrow Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Some of the nobility were engaged as infants or even married as children, however consummation was rare until physical maturity. (But it still occurred) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 21 hours ago, John Suburbs said: That's not exactly true. Some cases of marriage to young girls can be seen in medieval records, but studies have shown that average ages of first marriage fluctuated through time and across regions between 16 and mid-to-late 20s. It's important to remember that the onset of puberty was about two years later than it is now, so most girls would not be considered eligible until 14 or so, and times of unusual stress, such as the Black Death, would drive the marriage age down because the pool of available spouses, both male and female, was diminished. Cases of very young girls being married off to middle-age or older men were relatively few and far between. Then as now, people were primarily concerned with producing healthy children, and the best way to do that is by marrying healthy young men to healthy young women whose bodies were up to the arduous task of childbirth. But your point about leaving 21st century morality aside is well taken. It's how we come to see that Lady O would not be overly concerned even if Joffrey was threatening to beat Margaery because the real prize, to her way of thinking, is the child that Margaery will bear, not her happiness. For Lady O to take the extreme step of killing the king, she would have to be absolutely convinced that she would not survive the night with Joffrey, and there is no reason whatsoever for her to think this. One thing that was ascertained was that Sansa had flowered, then eligible... to whom...to the bidders, of course, but flowered she was, Now the husband being older was very much the norm, although it could go the other way wrong lol, i,e. newborn baby or something (I believe we get a sample of betrothal of that ilk some were in the books, but forgot who to who). An extremely old husband might have genetic consequences, as does someone with dwarfism, say, but on age alone Sansa and Tyrion are acceptable (just) in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 22 hours ago, John Suburbs said: That's not exactly true. Some cases of marriage to young girls can be seen in medieval records, but studies have shown that average ages of first marriage fluctuated through time and across regions between 16 and mid-to-late 20s. It's important to remember that the onset of puberty was about two years later than it is now, so most girls would not be considered eligible until 14 or so, and times of unusual stress, such as the Black Death, would drive the marriage age down because the pool of available spouses, both male and female, was diminished. Cases of very young girls being married off to middle-age or older men were relatively few and far between. Then as now, people were primarily concerned with producing healthy children, and the best way to do that is by marrying healthy young men to healthy young women whose bodies were up to the arduous task of childbirth. But your point about leaving 21st century morality aside is well taken. It's how we come to see that Lady O would not be overly concerned even if Joffrey was threatening to beat Margaery because the real prize, to her way of thinking, is the child that Margaery will bear, not her happiness. For Lady O to take the extreme step of killing the king, she would have to be absolutely convinced that she would not survive the night with Joffrey, and there is no reason whatsoever for her to think this. average ages in marriage for commoners or the nobility? Can quote right now as on way to bed lol but Popes allowed 14, I guess provided bled.. Non ble, not much use to them lol and some flower young and some older... but if flowered, ready for bedding and making babies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 On 20.12.2017 at 11:01 PM, John Suburbs said: Not the big pie, Tyrion's pie. The piece that was meant for Tyrion and Tyrion alone. Proof: Read Cressen's death scene. Notice how Cressen looks into his cup and sees a tiny sip of normal-looking wine? Then he drinks, drops his cup, Mel says her one short sentence about the fire lord's power, and when Cressen tries to respond "the words caught in his throat." This whole sequence takes about five seconds, seven tops. Now let's compare that to Joffrey. ~ Snip ~ So small amount of mildly poisoned wine vs. huge amount of deep purple poisoned wine. Which victim should have logically succumbed first? But then note that when Joff washes the poison pie down with wine, putting it in first contact with his throat, Joff is choking within five to seven seconds, just like Cressen. The wine was poisoned by Olenna Tyrell. When Joffrey left his chalice near Tyrion, Olenna was there. Quote “It didn’t spill,” said Joffrey, too graceless to take the retreat Tyrion offered him. “And I wasn’t serving you, either.” Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey’s elbow. “My sweet king,” the Tyrell girl entreated, “come, return to your place, there’s another singer waiting.” “Alaric of Eysen,” said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done. “I do so hope he plays us ‘The Rains of Castamere.’ It has been an hour, I’ve forgotten how it goes.” “Ser Addam has a toast he wants to make as well,” said Margaery. “Your Grace, please.” “I have no wine,” Joffrey declared. “How can I drink a toast if I have no wine? Uncle Imp, you can serve me. Since you won’t joust you’ll be my cupbearer.” “I would be most honored.” “It’s not meant to be an honor!” Joffrey screamed. “Bend down and pick up my chalice.” Tyrion did as he was bid, but as he reached for the handle Joff kicked the chalice through his legs. “Pick it up! Are you as clumsy as you are ugly?” He had to crawl under the table to find the thing. “Good, now fill it with wine.” He claimed a flagon from a serving girl and filled the goblet three-quarters full. “No, on your knees, dwarf.” Kneeling, Tyrion raised up the heavy cup, wondering if he was about to get a second bath. But Joffrey took the wedding chalice one-handed, drank deep, and set it on the table. “You can get up now, Uncle.” His legs cramped as he tried to rise, and almost spilled him again. Tyrion had to grab hold of a chair to steady himself. Ser Garlan lent him a hand. Joffrey laughed, and Cersei as well. Then others. He could not see who, but he heard them. “Your Grace.” Lord Tywin’s voice was impeccably correct. “They are bringing in the pie. Your sword is needed.” “The pie?” Joffrey took his queen by the hand. “Come, my lady, it’s the pie.” While everyone was watching how Joffrey and Margaery were cutting big pie, Olenna put poison into Joffrey's chalice. Quote But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. “Uncle, where are you going? You’re my cupbearer, remember?” “I need to change into fresh garb, Your Grace. May I have your leave?” “No. I like the look of you this way. Serve me my wine.” The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. “My lord,” Margaery said, “we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us.” “My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. “See, it’s good.” Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. “Dry, though. Needs washing down.” Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. “I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want…” His words broke up in a fit of coughing. Margaery looked at him with concern. “Your Grace?” “It’s, kof, the pie, noth—kof, pie.” Joff took another drink, or tried to, but all the wine came spewing back out when another spate of coughing doubled him over. His face was turning red. “I, kof, I can’t, kof kof kof kof…” The chalice slipped from his hand and dark red wine went running across the dais. “He’s choking,” Queen Margaery gasped. Her grandmother moved to her side. “Help the poor boy!” the Queen of Thorns screeched, in a voice ten times her size. “Dolts! Will you all stand about gaping? Help your king!” After they cut the pie, and Joffrey returned to where he left his chalice, Olenna was still there. When Joffrey took his cup, the wine in it was already poisoned. He took it and drunk a bit: Quote Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. Margaery was talking while he was drinking: Quote “My lord,” Margaery said, “we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us.” Then he stopped drinking, and ate a bit of pie: Quote “My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. “See, it’s good.” And then showed first symptoms of his poisoning: Quote Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. And then the symptoms became more obvious: Quote “Dry, though. Needs washing down.” Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently. “I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want…” His words broke up in a fit of coughing. The pie wasn't dry, Joffrey felt dryness in his throat and mouth, because the poison was already in his blood, killing him, and stopping normal functioning of his organism. The speed in which the poison started working was the timeframe between Joffrey swallowing first portion of it, and him starting coughing. Between swallowing poison and starting to cough he said this: Quote “My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” “See, it’s good.” By the time he was saying “See, it’s good.” the poison was already in his blood, and his throat became dry, and immediately after saying “See, it’s good.” he started to cough. Google Translator said "My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie. It’s ill luck not to eat the pie" in 6-7 seconds. So between Joffrey swalowing poisoned wined and first sign of symptoms there passed about 10 maybe 15 seconds. (Could be that Joffrey and Cressen were killed with the same kind of poison. Even though it took Cressen only 5-7 seconds to be poisoned, and Joffrey 10-15. That's because Joffrey was younger and healthier than Cressen, and he ate lots of food, prior consuming that poison, so it took a bit longer time for the poison to affect him.) He swallowed poisoned wine, said "My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie." At the same time as he was saying it, he took a piece of Tyrion’s pie. While he was putting it in his mouth he said " “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. " He has put a piece of pie in his mouth, didn't even swallowed it yet, only felt its taste, and said "See, it’s good." and started to cough, spitting out pie that was in his mouth -> " “See, it’s good.” Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. “Dry, though. Needs washing down.” Joff took a swallow of wine and coughed again, more violently." So when he put the first piece of pie in his mouth, he already felt first symptoms of poisoning - dryeness, because poison was already in his blood and his salivary glands stopped working, and the mucous membrane in his throat became dry, and his throat has swollen, blocking his airways, and he started to suffocate. Poison in food works slower than poison in liquid form. So if the poison was in a pie, then for it to start working, the pie had to be swallowed, go down into his stomach, there to be slowly dissolved by gastric juice, and only after that to go thru his stomach's walls into his bloodstream, and then he will show symptoms of poisoning. Considering amount of food, that Joffrey ate prior taking that pie, his stomach was full of still undigested food. So under this circumstances, and considering that he was young and healthy male, it would took at least 15-20 minutes, for the poison from pie to start working. But being realistic, it will take a few hours, before it will be a turn of that piece of pie, from the top of a mountain of food in his stomach, to be digested. So if he was poisoned by pie, he would have died on late evening of that day, not two seconds after putting that pie in his mouth. He started to cough immediately after he put in his mouth first piece of pie, and he mostly spit it out, when he started to cough, and by the time he actually swallowed some pie, when he took second handfull of it, he was already nearly suffocating. So the poison 100% was NOT IN THE PIE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 The reader has to make so many assumptions to believe the poison was in the pie. Here are just a few. First, there is nothing in the text which tells us the Strangler can even be used in food. Cressen's Strangler 101 class in Prologue, CoK tells us Quote Cressen no longer recalled the name the Asshai'i gave the leaf, or the Lysene poisoners the crystal. In the Citadel, it was simply called the strangler. Dissolved in wine, it would make the muscles of a man's throat clench tighter than any fist, shutting off his windpipe. They said a victim's face turned as purple as the little crystal seed from which his death was grown, but so too did a man choking on a morsel of food. Let's also notice that this quote spells out exactly the intentions of the poisoners at the Purple Wedding. For a moment, let's ignore the text and believe the Strangler can be dissolved in pie. How would the Tyrells/Littlefinger know this? Cressen doesn't know this, but LF and Ollena do? How would this come to be? Are we supposed to believe that high lords and ladies know more of poisons than maesters of the Citadel? I don't wish to make that leap. George has set up the Maesters to be the authorities on matters such as this. Only Oberyn (who did study at the Citadel), would know something like this, if it was true. Now. Let's hypothetically believe that the Strangler can be dissolved in pie AND LF/Ollena somehow know this is possible even though Cressen does not. Where would the poisoner place the crystal of the Strangler? Probably in the place where most people take the first bite of pie, right? In the corner without the crust when sliced in a triangle, right? Unfortunately, Quote “My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. “See, it’s good.” We get no indication that Joff ate this corner. It seems that Joff just grabbed a random handful. Could he have gotten the corner? Maybe. However, the text makes it seem unlikely. This is all I have time to put down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 20 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said: average ages in marriage for commoners or the nobility? Can quote right now as on way to bed lol but Popes allowed 14, I guess provided bled.. Non ble, not much use to them lol and some flower young and some older... but if flowered, ready for bedding and making babies... This is from Wikipedia; it doesn't distinguish between nobles and commoners, however: Quote Where in the mid-1500s in England, approximately 8 percent of women remained unmarried the inference would be that that figure was either the same or lower in the previous several centuries;[13] marriage in Medieval England appears to be a robust institution where over 90% of women married and roughly 70% of women aged 15 to 50 years were married at any given time while the other 30% were single or widows.[14] In Yorkshire in the 14th and 15th centuries, the age range for most brides was between 18 and 22 years and the age of the grooms was similar; rural Yorkshire women tended to marry in their late teens to early twenties while their urban counterparts married in their early to middle twenties. In the 15th century, the average Italian bride was 18 and married a groom 10–12 years her senior. An unmarried Tuscan woman 21 years of age would be seen as past marriageable age, the benchmark for which was 19 years, and easily 97 percent of Florentine women were married by the age of 25 years while 21 years was the average age of a contemporary English bride.[15][16] While the average age at first marriage had climbed to 25 years for women and 27 years for men in England and the Low Countries by the end of the 16th century,[17] and the percentage of unmarried Englishwomen rose from less than 10% to nearly 20% by the mid-17th century and their average age at first marriage rose to 26 years at the same time,[18] there was nonetheless great variation within Britain alone; while Lowland Scotland saw patterns similar to England, with women married in the middle twenties after a period of domestic service, the high birth rate of Highland Scotland and the Hebrides imply a lower age of marriage for the bride, possibly similar to Gaelic Ireland,[19] where Brehon Law stated that women became legally marriageable at 15 years and men at 18 years.[20] Similarly, between 1620 and 1690 the average age of first marriage for Swedish women was roughly 20 years, approximately 70% of Swedish women aged between 15 and 50 years were married at any one time, and the proportion of single women was less than 10%, but by the end of the 18th century it had risen to roughly 27 years and remained high with the celibacy rate as a result of falling infant mortality rates, declining famines, decreasing available land and resources for a growing population, and other factors.[14] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 19 hours ago, Megorova said: The wine was poisoned by Olenna Tyrell. When Joffrey left his chalice near Tyrion, Olenna was there. While everyone was watching how Joffrey and Margaery were cutting big pie, Olenna put poison into Joffrey's chalice. How does Olenna, who is barely five feet tall, manage to reach to the top of a three-foot chalice that was so far into the table that Tyrion had to climb into his chair just to reach the stem, all without being seen by either Tyrion or Sansa? Utterly impossible. The only possible poisoner is Garlan who must somehow reach the lip of the chalice and drop the poison without being seen by one of the thousand people who are facing his direction, let alone the two short people who are looking up at the pigeons past the chalice that is literally only a few feet in front of their faces. We don't even need to get into the disconnect this creates by having an anointed knight from the family that literally invented chivalry using a coward's weapon like poison to kill a foe, and a 13yo boy no less. Garlan can only be the poisoner if 1) he is not really the noble knight he pretends to be but actually a sniveling coward, and 2) the Lady O would risk her entire family's lives on the one-in-a-million shot that Garlan could make the drop without being seen. And we haven't even considered the impossibility of knowing beforehand all utterly unpredictable events that had Joffrey placing the chalice at exactly the right time and in the exact spot, not a foot to the left or a foot to the right, for Garlan to make the drop. Sorry, by any logical standard, all of this is simply not possible. 19 hours ago, Megorova said: snip Hogwash for all the rest of this. Cressen drinks, drops his cup, hears one sentence from Mel and cannot speak. Joffrey takes multiple chugs of wine that is so thoroughly poisoned that it has turned purple, Margaery says her longer sentence, Joffrey retorts, grabs pie, retorts again -- the poison has supposedly been at his throat twice if not three times longer than Cressen at this point and there is zero reaction from Joffrey. Then he eats pie and we see the slightest of coughs, tosses of the sentence about dry pie (and no, this is not just dryness in his throat, it is a continuation of his previous sentence: "See, it's good. <cough> Dry though.") and drinks wine. It's at this point that the poison (with wine) has finally entered Joffrey's throat, and then we see one more sentence from Joff, which takes approximately five seconds, and "his words broke up in a fit of coughing" -- exactly like Cressen who, five seconds or so after the poison hits his throat "his words caught in his throat." Exact same poison reacting exactly the same way on two different victims. The food in Joffrey's stomach is irrelevant to the timeline because the text makes it perfectly clear that the strangler is a contact poison, not a systemic poison. It hits the muscles of the throat and goes to work directly on them. It does not bypass the throat, enter the stomach, pass into the bloodstream, circulate throughout the body only to build up in the throat again. If this is how it worked, then neither Cressen nor Joffrey would have had any reaction for at least a minute, even on an empty stomach, as this is how long it takes for blood to circulate throughout the body. Plus it would somehow have to distinguish between the muscles of the throat and the muscles elsewhere in their bodies and this is disproved by the text: it works on the throat and the throat alone, on contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 9 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: The reader has to make so many assumptions to believe the poison was in the pie. Here are just a few. First, there is nothing in the text which tells us the Strangler can even be used in food. Cressen's Strangler 101 class in Prologue, CoK tells us Let's also notice that this quote spells out exactly the intentions of the poisoners at the Purple Wedding. For a moment, let's ignore the text and believe the Strangler can be dissolved in pie. How would the Tyrells/Littlefinger know this? Cressen doesn't know this, but LF and Ollena do? How would this come to be? Are we supposed to believe that high lords and ladies know more of poisons than maesters of the Citadel? I don't wish to make that leap. George has set up the Maesters to be the authorities on matters such as this. Only Oberyn (who did study at the Citadel), would know something like this, if it was true. Now. Let's hypothetically believe that the Strangler can be dissolved in pie AND LF/Ollena somehow know this is possible even though Cressen does not. Where would the poisoner place the crystal of the Strangler? Probably in the place where most people take the first bite of pie, right? In the corner without the crust when sliced in a triangle, right? Unfortunately, We get no indication that Joff ate this corner. It seems that Joff just grabbed a random handful. Could he have gotten the corner? Maybe. However, the text makes it seem unlikely. This is all I have time to put down. Assumptions? Let's add up all the assumptions required to believe the wine: Cressen's poison is more concentrated than Joffrey's. This is disputed by the text because Joffrey's wine is "deep purple" while Cressen sees just ordinary wine. That the plotters could know ahead of time that the dwarf joust will produce the desired spat between Joff and Tyrion, the that spat will involve the chalice, that Tyrion would be named cupbearer and have his hands all over the chalice, that Joffrey would place the chalice exactly where it needed to be at exactly the right time to provide even the slimmest of chances to drop the poison without being seen, that Margaery would not have to drink first at this time when toasts are customary. That Lady O and Margaery are afraid of Joffrey. Contraindicated by both characters several times in the text That Joffrey has ill feelings toward Margaery at this point. There is absolutely nothing in the text that even remotely hints at this, and I would go so far as to say the Margaery is probably the only person in the world the Joffrey does not despise at this point. Sansa's treatment was specific to Sansa and the Stark's relationship with the crown, none of which is the case with Margaery. She has never witnessed Joff in any embarrassing situation, she does not correct him or tell him a cannot do something, her family is not rebelling against the crown (anymore), she has a full army at her back whereas Sansa is utterly alone. To say think that Joffrey is going to hurt Margaery simply because he hurt Sansa is like saying he will execute Mace Tyrell because he executed Ned Stark. Different people, different situation, different circumstances. Margaery plays Joffrey like a fiddle and she is going to bang his brains out every night for years to come -- she is the last person he is going to hurt. That Lady O is trying to prevent future injury to Margaery at Joffrey's hands. Even if he does turn on her, the time to kill him would be later, where it could be done privately, with no witnesses and staged to look like an accident, long after Margaery has produced the new crown prince and the Tyrell link to the Iron Throne is secure. Indeed, the very idea that Lady O would risk her entire family and a Tyrell heir sitting on the Iron Throne just so Margy won't get a few bruises sometime in the future is so completely ludicrous it can be dismissed outright. For the rest: The strangler is a crystal. Crystals dissolve in liquid. There is no reason to think the strangler dissolves in wine and only wine any more than salt would dissolve in water and only water. Besides, read the text: just before Joffrey starts choking in earnest he takes a big slug of wine. So even if your completely unsubstantiated theory is correct and the strangler can only dissolve in wine, well there you have it, wine and strangler in his mouth, and seconds later, words caught in his throat -- just like Cressen. Of course, wine would be the most obvious choice because it would dissolve the crystal the quickest, so Cressen would no doubt have this in mind as he is contemplating his actions. But LF is a smart guy; he can easily figure that doing Tyrion's wine is problematic because he always has it in his hand. But his pie, which he will certainly eat because "it's ill luck not to eat the pie" is, pardon the pun, a piece of cake because Lady O can easily arrange the exact way in which the pie will be served to the head table to know which pie is Tyrion's, and then she can slip the poison at the moment the pigeons take flight while the pie is behind the table, out of sight of virtually everybody. And it wouldn't be difficult at all to determine beforehand how well and how quickly the crystal would at least soften in hot, moist pigeon pie. That's all they need. Quote Now. Let's hypothetically believe that the Strangler can be dissolved in pie AND LF/Ollena somehow know this is possible even though Cressen does not. Where would the poisoner place the crystal of the Strangler? Probably in the place where most people take the first bite of pie, right? In the corner without the crust when sliced in a triangle, right? Unfortunately, We get no indication that Joff ate this corner. It seems that Joff just grabbed a random handful. Could he have gotten the corner? Maybe. However, the text makes it seem unlikely. Yes, the corner would be the most obvious target. Not only is it the easiest option, but it is also the most likely part in which Tyrion will take his one and only bite. But again, you haven't read the scene thoroughly. Joffrey grabs one handful and stuffs it in his mouth and we see a very mild reaction. Then he grabs a second handful and eats that, drinks wine and then we see the real choking. It's only a small piece of pie, so the odds of Joffrey getting the front corner on the second bite are actually quite high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 16 hours ago, John Suburbs said: 1. How does Olenna, who is barely five feet tall, manage to reach to the top of a three-foot chalice 2. that was so far into the table that Tyrion had to climb into his chair just to reach the stem, 3. all without being seen by either Tyrion or Sansa? Utterly impossible. 4. The only possible poisoner is Garlan 1. Barely five feet tall Olenna managed to reach to the top of Sansa and took one of poisonous crystals from her hair net. Quote “You do look quite exquisite, child,” Lady Olenna Tyrell told Sansa when she tottered up to them in a cloth-of-gold gown that must have weighed more than she did. “The wind has been at your hair, though.” The little old woman reached up and fussed at the loose strands, tucking them back into place and straightening Sansa’s hair net. “I was very sorry to hear about your losses,” she said as she tugged and fiddled. “Your brother was a terrible traitor, I know, but if we start killing men at weddings they’ll be even more frightened of marriage than they are presently. There, that’s better.” Lady Olenna smiled. And Sansa is taller than - three-foot chalice + heigh of the table. Quote She patted Sansa’s hair again and said, “Well, off with you, child, and try to be merrier. Now where have my guardsmen gone? Left, Right, where are you? Come help me to the dais.” Quote Tyrion wondered which of them looked more absurd, him with Sansa or the wizened little woman between her seven-foot-tall twin guardsmen. Quote He and Sansa had been seated far to the king’s right, beside Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, the Lady Leonette. 2. So what? Olenna managed to reach Sansa's head, while Sansa was standing, so it's possible that she reached that chalice easier than Tyrion. Not to mention that she had two seven-foot-tall helpers and Garlan close at hand. 3. Everyone exept poisoners were watching how Joffrey and Margaery were cutting the pie. Quote “Your Grace.” Lord Tywin’s voice was impeccably correct. “They are bringing in the pie. Your sword is needed.” “The pie?” Joffrey took his queen by the hand. “Come, my lady, it’s the pie.” The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks. Two yards across it was, crusty and golden brown, and they could hear squeaks and thumpings coming from inside it. ~ King Joffrey and his queen met the pie below the dais. As Joff drew his sword, Margaery laid a hand on his arm to restrain him. “Widow’s Wail was not meant for slicing pies.” ~ Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily. A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either. “You’re deathly pale, my lady,” Tyrion said. “You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet.” He stood and offered her his hand. “Come.” But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. “Uncle, where are you going? You’re my cupbearer, remember?” Tyrion and Sansa were sitting on far right away from Joffrey's seat, away from the center of dais. And the pie wasn't brought to where Joffrey and Margaery and Tyrion and Sansa and Garlan and Olenna were chatting at that time. The pie was wheeled in the center. So Joffrey and Margaery went there. And everyone was watching the two of them in the center, not what was happening on far right. Quote He and Sansa had been seated far to the king’s right, beside Ser Garlan Tyrell and his wife, the Lady Leonette. A dozen others sat closer to Joffrey Space for each person at least 0,5 meters, then between center of the table and place where Tyrion was seating, was at least (12 * 0,5) 6 meters, a bit over 19,5 feet. So people were watching "center stage" - the pie cutting, and Joffrey dancing with Margaery, not paying attention to what was happening "on the far side of stage, near curtains". 4. Could be that the plan was altered a bit, and in the end Olenna had to give poisoned gemstone to Garlan, even though in the original plan, she was going to put the poison in Joffrey's cup on her own. Quote Queen Margaery appeared suddenly at Joffrey’s elbow. “My sweet king,” the Tyrell girl entreated, “come, return to your place, there’s another singer waiting.” “Alaric of Eysen,” said Lady Olenna Tyrell, leaning on her cane and taking no more notice of the wine-soaked dwarf than her granddaughter had done. “I do so hope he plays us ‘The Rains of Castamere.’ It has been an hour, I’ve forgotten how it goes.” Olenna took off one of stones from Sansa's hair net. She planned to put it into Joffrey's chalice. But when Joffrey with his cup, went to where Tyrion was seating, and poured wine on him, then Olenna went there too. And she passed the poison to Garlan. The secret sign that she wants to pass him the poison was name of singer and name of song. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Alaric_of_Eysen "Alaric is a reference by George R. R. Martin to Tales of Alaric the Minstrel by Phyllis Eisenstein. A Storm of Swords is dedicated to Phyllis, "who made [George] put the dragons in."[5] " ASOIAF's book in which Joffrey was poisoned is dedicated to Phyllis. In one of his stories about singer Alaric ("The Island in the lake"), this singer added elixir into wine, to cure with it son of Lord Gazian. Doesn't Gazian sounds similar to Garlan? On Joffrey's wedding there was seven singers, one of them this Alaric of Eysen. And Joffrey's wedding gift from Tyrells was a seven sided chalice. Quote Lord Mace Tyrell came forward to present his gift: a golden chalice three feet tall, with two ornate curved handles and seven faces glittering with gemstones. “Seven faces for Your Grace’s seven kingdoms,” the bride’s father explained. He showed them how each face bore the sigil of one of the great houses: ruby lion, emerald rose, onyx stag, silver trout, blue jade falcon, opal sun, and pearl direwolf. GRRM specificaly wrote not sides, not fasets, but faces, chalice with seven faces. And seventh face was direwolf. Seventh God is a Stranger, or Many-Faced God, or God of Death. Thus even this wedding gift was a foreshadowing from GRRM, hinting that Joffrey, same as majority of Starks (Robb, his wife and unborn child, and Catelyn), will be killed on the upcoming wedding, and he will be killed with use of this seven faced chalice. Gemstones in Sansa's hair net were fake amethysts (poisonous powder compressed into stones). Actual amethysts are purple colored. Joffrey's wine turned purple. In the beginning of wedding feast, Olenna Tyrell was tugging Sansa's hair net. And later Sansa noticed that one of gemstones was missing. Quote When she pulled it free, her long auburn hair cascaded down her back and across her shoulders. The web of spun silver hung from her fingers, the fine metal glimmering softly, the stones black in the moonlight. Black amethysts from Asshai. One of them was missing. Sansa lifted the net for a closer look. There was a dark smudge in the silver socket where the stone had fallen out. A sudden terror filled her. Her heart hammered against her ribs, and for an instant she held her breath. Why am I so scared, it’s only an amethyst, a black amethyst from Asshai, no more than that. It must have been loose in the setting, that’s all. It was loose and it fell out, and now it’s lying somewhere in the throne room, or in the yard, unless… Ser Dontos had said the hair net was magic, that it would take her home. He told her she must wear it tonight at Joffrey’s wedding feast. So do you really think that the poison was in Tyrion's pie? Even though Joffrey's wine became purple like amethysts, and from Sansa's ornament was missing one of stones, and Olenna Tyrell was fussing with it prior beggining of feast, and Olenna was in just the right time and right place to put the poisonous stone to be dissolved into Joffrey's seven faced chalice, and the person that arranged Sansa's escape from KL specifically asked her to wear it to wedding feast? Do you think that the pie was poisoned not with the usage of stones from Sansa's hair-net, but with some other poison? Then why did GRRM wrote so many hints and details about what was happening between Dontos, Sansa, Olenna, and gemstones in that hair-net? Or do you think that it was Garlan, who took one of stones from Sansa's net, and that he stuffed that stone into Tyrion's pie, in a timeframe between servant putting that pie in front of Tyrion and Joffrey taking it? Quote A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either. “You’re deathly pale, my lady,” Tyrion said. “You need a breath of cool air, and I need a fresh doublet.” He stood and offered her his hand. “Come.” But before they could make their retreat, Joffrey was back. “Uncle, where are you going? You’re my cupbearer, remember?” “I need to change into fresh garb, Your Grace. May I have your leave?” “No. I like the look of you this way. Serve me my wine.” The king’s chalice was on the table where he’d left it. Tyrion had to climb back onto his chair to reach it. Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. “My lord,” Margaery said, “we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us.” “My uncle hasn’t eaten his pigeon pie.” Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion’s pie. “It’s ill luck not to eat the pie,” he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. “See, it’s good.” Spitting out flakes of crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful. The pie was in front of Tyrion, that was sitting at his seat. And when he got up from his seat, by that time Joffrey was already going towards them. Probably he wanted to take back his cup, and when he was just a few steps away from them, he noticed that Tyrion is getting up, and stopped him. So when Tyrion and Sansa turned away from Tyrion's plate, Joffrey was already close to them and was looking in their direction. So he would have noticed, if Garlan was stuffing something inside that pie, on Tyrion's plate. Don't you think so? 16 hours ago, John Suburbs said: And we haven't even considered the impossibility of knowing beforehand all utterly unpredictable events that had Joffrey placing the chalice at exactly the right time and in the exact spot, not a foot to the left or a foot to the right, for Garlan to make the drop. Sorry, by any logical standard, all of this is simply not possible. Olenna ripped off one of stones. She planned to put it into Joffrey's cup. She was sitting close to him, much closer than Garlan. But she wasn't nailed to the floor, if she wanted she could have left her seat, and walked anywhere she wanted. Which is exactly what she did, when she aproached Garlan and Tyrion, on far right side of the table, and gave "Alaric of Eysen" sign to Garlan. The feast was supposed to last seventy seven courses of different dishes. So she would have had many opportunities in span of the feast, to put a poison into Joffrey's cup, even if Joffrey didn't went there and then, and havent' placed his chalice exactly there. People were getting drunk, and drunker. Quote The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks. When the pie was brough in, everyone was standing, shouting, there was lots of commotion. People were already very drunk. So even if in the middle of pie cutting, Olenna would have climbed on top of the table (either to put a poison in Joffrey's cup, or to lie there down to have a nap on a tabletop), nobody would have noticed. This was 3rd singer: Quote By the time the singer had taken his bows, some of the guests were drunk enough to begin providing unintentional entertainments of their own. Grand Maester Pycelle fell asleep while dancers from the Summer Isles swirled and spun in robes made of bright feathers and smoky silk. Roundels of elk stuffed with ripe blue cheese were being brought out when one of Lord Rowan’s knights stabbed a Dornishman. The gold cloaks dragged them both away, one to a cell to rot and the other to get sewn up by Maester Ballabar. Tyrion was toying with a leche of brawn, spiced with cinnamon, cloves, sugar, and almond milk, when King Joffrey lurched suddenly to his feet. “Bring on my royal jousters!” he shouted in a voice thick with wine, clapping his hands together. My nephew is drunker than I am, Quote Joffrey was snorting wine from both nostrils. Gasping, he lurched to his feet, almost knocking over his tall two-handed chalice. “A champion,” he shouted. “We have a champion!” The hall began to quiet when it was seen that the king was speaking. The dwarfs untangled, no doubt anticipating the royal thanks. “Not a true champion, though,” said Joff. “A true champion defeats all challengers.” The king climbed up on the table. “Who else will challenge our tiny champion?” With a gleeful smile, he turned toward Tyrion. “Uncle! You’ll defend the honor of my realm, won’t you? You can ride the pig!” Alaric was fourth out of seven singers that were supposed to entertain wedding guests. Could be that Olenna and Garlan planned in advance, that one of them will poison Joffrey in the middle of the festivities, so fourth singer out of seven is exactly the middle. And he was supposed to sing "The Rains of Castamere", or Olenna just said it, and it was also one of their signs. Probably it was a command to Garlan, that he should do the poisoning, take the stone from her, and put it in Joffrey's cup as soon as there will be a chance to do it. During Red Wedding, the same song was also used as a sign to begin attack on Starks. " "The Rains of Castamere" is featured most prominently during the events of the infamous Red Wedding. The song is the signal for the forces of House Frey and House Bolton to turn on the Starks and Tullys and slaughter them. Lady Catelyn Stark is the only one present who recognizes the tune, but by the time she realizes what is happening, it is already far too late; as the song starts, so does the bloodbath that ends the life of King Robb Stark and the rebellions of the north and the riverlands to the Iron Throne.[3] The song is played numerous times at the wedding feast of King Joffrey I Baratheon and Queen Margaery Tyrell." Olenna said to Garlan - "Alaric of Eysen,” “I do so hope he plays us ‘The Rains of Castamere." It isn't known whether Alaric was actually going to sing this song, or Olenna just said so, because the title of that song was her signal to Garlan. Though you're probably right about one thing - there indeed was something wrong with that pie, only it wasn't what you think. It wasn't poisoned, it was a signal for Sansa, that it's time for her to get out from there. Look: Quote A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. The pigeons were well and truly cooked in this pie, but he found them no more appetizing than the white ones fluttering about the hall. Sansa was not eating either. “You’re deathly pale, my lady,” Tyrion said. Sansa wasn't pale moments before LEMONED pie was placed in front of them. Quote Sansa stirred in her seat. “What sword is that?” Tyrion’s eyes still stung from the wine. He blinked and looked again. Ser Ilyn’s greatsword was as long and wide as Ice, but it was too silvery-bright; Valyrian steel had a darkness to it, a smokiness in its soul. Sansa clutched his arm. “What has Ser Ilyn done with my father’s sword?” I should have sent Ice back to Robb Stark, Tyrion thought. He glanced at his father, but Lord Tywin was watching the king. Joffrey and Margaery joined hands to lift the greatsword and swung it down together in a silvery arc. When the piecrust broke, the doves burst forth in a swirl of white feathers, scattering in every direction, flapping for the windows and the rafters. A roar of delight went up from the benches, and the fiddlers and pipers in the gallery began to play a sprightly tune. Joff took his bride in his arms, and whirled her around merrily. A serving man placed a slice of hot pigeon pie in front of Tyrion and covered it with a spoon of lemon cream. She became pale when she saw lemon cream. LF knew that Sansa likes lemons, so he used lemon creme to signal Sansa that it's time to go, and because she realised that she has to go now, that's why she palled. 16 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Hogwash for all the rest of this. The food in Joffrey's stomach is irrelevant to the timeline because the text makes it perfectly clear that the strangler is a contact poison, not a systemic poison. If it was contact poison, then there is a risk that it can poison not only thru oral consumption, but also thru contact with skin. And Olenna ripped it out of hair-net with bare hands. And Sansa was wearing that ornament for a long time, since Dontos gave it to her. And when she noticed that one of stones is missing, there was left a dark smudge where the crystal was. Which proves that it wasn't a real gemstone, it was a compressed poisonous powder, and some of it was left on the hair-net. Sansa was rubbing place where the stone was, and her hands were sweaty, because she was in a state of stress. So if it was a contact poison, then added to her damp skin, it should have killed her. But it didn't. Quote The web of spun silver hung from her fingers, the fine metal glimmering softly, the stones black in the moonlight. Black amethysts from Asshai. One of them was missing. Sansa lifted the net for a closer look. There was a dark smudge in the silver socket where the stone had fallen out. A sudden terror filled her. Her heart hammered against her ribs, and for an instant she held her breath. Why am I so scared, it’s only an amethyst, a black amethyst from Asshai, no more than that. It must have been loose in the setting, that’s all. It was loose and it fell out, and now it’s lying somewhere in the throne room, or in the yard, unless… Ser Dontos had said the hair net was magic, that it would take her home. He told her she must wear it tonight at Joffrey’s wedding feast. The silver wire stretched tight across her knuckles. Her thumb rubbed back and forth against the hole where the stone had been. She tried to stop, but her fingers were not her own. Her thumb was drawn to the hole as the tongue is drawn to a missing tooth. So it was not a contact poison. Olenna and Sansa being in direct contact with those amethysts prove that it's not poisonous to the touch. And it doesn't actually matter what part of body will be touched by powdered poison, whether it's a dry hands of an old granny, or sweaty hands of nervous Sansa, or mouth of Joffrey. Even if the stone was in the piece of pie that Joffrey took, and he washed it down with wine, it still needed time for the wine to dissolve at least part of it, enough for the poison to become liquid and to go thru mucous membrane of Joffrey's mouth and throat, to start working. Joffrey started coughting when he barely put first portion of pie in his mouth. Which proves that the poison already was in his body, even before he touched that pie. So the poison was not in the pie. You're absolutely sure that the poison was in the pie, and thus you're just ignoring all facts from the books, that prove that poison was in the wine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Cressen's poison is more concentrated than Joffrey's. This is disputed by the text because Joffrey's wine is "deep purple" while Cressen sees just ordinary wine. This is what you believe. None of it is based on the text. The concentration of poison in either of the two wines is never stated in the text. Where does Cressen say his wine is ordinary? He never gives us the color of his wine. You say it "ordinary" because it fits your theory better. The text doesn't give a color. 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: That the plotters could know ahead of time that the dwarf joust will produce the desired spat between Joff and Tyrion, the that spat will involve the chalice, that Tyrion would be named cupbearer and have his hands all over the chalice, that Joffrey would place the chalice exactly where it needed to be at exactly the right time to provide even the slimmest of chances to drop the poison without being seen, that Margaery would not have to drink first at this time when toasts are customary. This worked out well for them, yes. If they didn't do it here they would have found another opportunity. Are you working under the assumption that they were trying to frame Tyrion from the start? 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: That Lady O and Margaery are afraid of Joffrey. Contraindicated by both characters several times in the text Why do they need to be afraid of him to want him dead? 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: That Joffrey has ill feelings toward Margaery at this point. Why does this matter? 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: That Lady O is trying to prevent future injury to Margaery at Joffrey's hands. Even if he does turn on her, the time to kill him would be later, where it could be done privately, with no witnesses and staged to look like an accident, long after Margaery has produced the new crown prince and the Tyrell link to the Iron Throne is secure. Indeed, the very idea that Lady O would risk her entire family and a Tyrell heir sitting on the Iron Throne just so Margy won't get a few bruises sometime in the future is so completely ludicrous it can be dismissed outright. Why does this matter. And even if we accept this as one possible motivation (among others), they would no longer be able to say there was no consummation. Killing Joff at the wedding leaves no doubt. Not that this is the only motivation anyways. 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: The strangler is a crystal. Crystals dissolve in liquid. There is no reason to think the strangler dissolves in wine and only wine any more than salt would dissolve in water and only water. I know it can be dissolved in wine. Does the text say it can be dissolved in food? 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Besides, read the text: just before Joffrey starts choking in earnest he takes a big slug of wine. So even if your completely unsubstantiated theory is correct and the strangler can only dissolve in wine, well there you have it, wine and strangler in his mouth, and seconds later, words caught in his throat -- just like Cressen. I don't work under the assumption that the two poisonings have to occur in the exact same timeframe. 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Lady O can easily arrange the exact way in which the pie will be served to the head table to know which pie is Tyrion's, and then she can slip the poison at the moment the pigeons take flight while the pie is behind the table, out of sight of virtually everybody. And it wouldn't be difficult at all to determine beforehand how well and how quickly the crystal would at least soften in hot, moist pigeon pie. That's all they need. If only we knew the Strangler could be dissolved in pie... And if only LF and Lady O knew it could be dissolved in pie when maesters of the Citadel do not... 4 hours ago, John Suburbs said: Yes, the corner would be the most obvious target. Not only is it the easiest option, but it is also the most likely part in which Tyrion will take his one and only bite. But again, you haven't read the scene thoroughly. Joffrey grabs one handful and stuffs it in his mouth and we see a very mild reaction. Then he grabs a second handful and eats that, drinks wine and then we see the real choking. It's only a small piece of pie, so the odds of Joffrey getting the front corner on the second bite are actually quite high. There is no way to determine the odds of whether or not Joff would take the front corner bite of pie in his two fistfuls. Do you see what kind if mental hurdles one needs to make to believe the poison is in the pie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I am a careful reader! the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-on-who-killed-joffrey-20140414 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgana Lannister Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 21 hours ago, John Suburbs said: This is from Wikipedia; it doesn't distinguish between nobles and commoners, however: Thanks for that. It seems that in medieval real life the age was generally significantly older than what my perception of what it seems customary in Martin's world. Now, with the very high nobility, although I seem to recall that I got most of this from historical fiction, I think 14 was allowed. Of course it all depended on how "necessary" it was deemed to have a certain pair married as soon as possible. Of course betrothals from infancy did happen as well. I guess the records you found are from some sort of census, likely from local churches, were there was not such hurry to marry for political reasons in like 99% of cases were not really high up aristocracy. It is interesting that this mentions that many women went into service first and then married. I guess in more rural areas they probably didn't so much and just help out within their family household, with the crops or whatever and then married. Of course any serious drop in population due to wars, plague or whatever would have brought the age lower as well. Okay, I have just found this which seems to make a big distinction in terms of age between the main records (which include most of the population of a given parish or whatever) and royal families. http://womenofhistory.blogspot.co.uk/2007/08/medieval-marriage-childbirth.html I find this topic actually quite fascinating but okay, is a side point in terms of where the main thread is going at the end of the day. My main point is that a lot of the early royal weddings would now be considered child abuse whereas in those times I am pretty sure they were not viewed that way. Not that it would have bothered Tywin anyway though lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 17 hours ago, Megorova said: 1. Barely five feet tall Olenna managed to reach to the top of Sansa and took one of poisonous crystals from her hair net. And Sansa is taller than - three-foot chalice + heigh of the table. 2. So what? Olenna managed to reach Sansa's head, while Sansa was standing, so it's possible that she reached that chalice easier than Tyrion. Not to mention that she had two seven-foot-tall helpers and Garlan close at hand. You're joking, right? Sansa is not six feet tall. She is five-six, five-eight at best, otherwise people wouldn't just say she is "tall for her age" but "my, you certainly are a tall one, aren't you?" You also fail to realize that she is standing directly in front of Lady O, and you are also assuming that she is reaching to the top of her head when all the text says is that she "reached up and fussed at the loose strands, tucking them back into place and straightening Sansa's hairnet." So the "loose strands" are very likely at shoulder length or lower. The chalice, meanwhile, is three feet tall and sitting on a table top that is at least three feet, maybe four, off the ground, and it is so far in that Tyrion has to climb into his chair just to reach the stem. So please explain how five-foot Lady Olenna can be standing behind Tyrion and then reach past him to the top of the chalice that is directly in front of his chair, all without being seen by either Tyrion or Sansa. Honestly, if you claimed that she has invisible rubber arms, that would not be the most crackpot idea needed to support the wine theory. The last time we see Left and Right is at the courtyard before the feast. Tyrion would most certainly have noticed two seven-foot guardsmen next to her when he sees her just before the cutting. And even a tall man would not be able reach over Tyrion's chair to a chalice that is at least an arm's length from the edge of the table without being seen. Garlan is the only possible poisoner, which leads to all the problems I listed above. 18 hours ago, Megorova said: Tyrion and Sansa were sitting on far right away from Joffrey's seat, away from the center of dais. And the pie wasn't brought to where Joffrey and Margaery and Tyrion and Sansa and Garlan and Olenna were chatting at that time. The pie was wheeled in the center. So Joffrey and Margaery went there. And everyone was watching the two of them in the center, not what was happening on far right. snip In a room where a thousand people are facing in your direction, with any number of them having the pie and the chalice in a single line of vision, the chances of somebody's attention being drawn by a sudden long reach to the chalice are quite high, and since the consequences of failure are the imprisonment, if not the execution, of virtually the entire Tyrell family, this is an extraordinary risk to take in order to solve a problem that doesn't even exist yet. And you're ignoring the fact that the chalice is only a few feet in front of both Tyrion and Sansa. Try this yourself if you think it's so easy: have someone hold a yardstick straight up on your kitchen table, then have two people sit next to you looking directly past the it, and see if you can reach the top without being seen. Never say never, of course, but the odds of getting away with this are extremely low. 18 hours ago, Megorova said: 4. Could be that the plan was altered a bit, and in the end Olenna had to give poisoned gemstone to Garlan, even though in the original plan, she was going to put the poison in Joffrey's cup on her own. Olenna took off one of stones from Sansa's hair net. She planned to put it into Joffrey's chalice. But when Joffrey with his cup, went to where Tyrion was seating, and poured wine on him, then Olenna went there too. And she passed the poison to Garlan. The secret sign that she wants to pass him the poison was name of singer and name of song. Altered a bit? For a plan that has been meticulously detailed from the acquisition of the poison, to the creation of the hairnet, to the setup with Dontos, to the delivery of the hairnet, to the retrieval of the poison, and then they finally get down to the crucial matter of actually poisoning the wine and they just decide to wing it? And if Joffrey had decided to bring the chalice to the cutting and place it on a table down there? Or if it had not been involved in the spat at all and just sat at the head table right in front of Tywin and Cersei? You think they went through all this trouble to get everything in place for this crucial moment on which decades-long dynastic ambitions hang in the balance, and their only plan is to just wait until the chalice magically arrives at the perfect yet utterly unlikely location where they can take their one-in-a-million shot? I don't think you realize how late in the feast we are at this point. If this chance does not materialize at this moment, then the bedding is right around the corner. Say bye-bye to Margaery. 18 hours ago, Megorova said: "Alaric is a reference by George R. R. Martin to Tales of Alaric the Minstrel by Phyllis Eisenstein. A Storm of Swords is dedicated to Phyllis, "who made [George] put the dragons in."[5] " ASOIAF's book in which Joffrey was poisoned is dedicated to Phyllis. In one of his stories about singer Alaric ("The Island in the lake"), this singer added elixir into wine, to cure with it son of Lord Gazian. Doesn't Gazian sounds similar to Garlan? What the hell does this have to do with anything. This is Martin's book, not Phyllis'. You honestly think that just because he dedicated it to another writer that he has to write the book she wrote, not his own? 18 hours ago, Megorova said: On Joffrey's wedding there was seven singers, one of them this Alaric of Eysen. And Joffrey's wedding gift from Tyrells was a seven sided chalice. GRRM specificaly wrote not sides, not fasets, but faces, chalice with seven faces. And seventh face was direwolf. Seventh God is a Stranger, or Many-Faced God, or God of Death. Thus even this wedding gift was a foreshadowing from GRRM, hinting that Joffrey, same as majority of Starks (Robb, his wife and unborn child, and Catelyn), will be killed on the upcoming wedding, and he will be killed with use of this seven faced chalice. Nonsense. The entire southron religious culture is based on the number seven. Your foreshadowings are imaginary. And besides, the faces are in a circular pattern, so to say that the pearl wolf is the "seventh face" is absurd. It just happened to be the last one described. And to add even more silliness to this whole idea, your seventh-face-direwolf-equals-Stranger-death idea cannot foreshadow both the death of Joffrey and the death of the Starks because Joffrey is not a Stark, he's a Baratheon. So if a Stark-face foreshadows the death of a Baratheon, then it can also foreshadow the death of a Lannister -- or, in this case, the mistaken, accidental death of a Baratheon/Lannister. Please. From start to finish, I support the pie theory with actual facts from either the text or real-life or both, and all you have is this highly subjective nonsense? 18 hours ago, Megorova said: Gemstones in Sansa's hair net were fake amethysts (poisonous powder compressed into stones). Actual amethysts are purple colored. Joffrey's wine turned purple. In the beginning of wedding feast, Olenna Tyrell was tugging Sansa's hair net. And later Sansa noticed that one of gemstones was missing. So do you really think that the poison was in Tyrion's pie? Even though Joffrey's wine became purple like amethysts, and from Sansa's ornament was missing one of stones, and Olenna Tyrell was fussing with it prior beggining of feast, and Olenna was in just the right time and right place to put the poisonous stone to be dissolved into Joffrey's seven faced chalice, and the person that arranged Sansa's escape from KL specifically asked her to wear it to wedding feast? Joffrey's wine appears purple to Tyrion when it is a thin film translucent against his pale white skin illuminated by orange candle- and torchlight reflected off a golden chalice. Sure, this is going to look purple. However, when Joffrey drops the chalice "dark red wine went running along the dais." Then at the end, we have the half-inch of deep purple at the bottom. So riddle me this, Batman: if the poison has turned the wine purple on Joffrey's chin, how does it change back to red when spilled on the dais and then back to deep purple? Also, if Joffrey's wine is so thoroughly poisoned that it has turned purple and Cressen's wine does not appear unusual at all, then how could Joffrey's vastly larger quantity of clearly more concentrated poison affect him more slowly than a half-swallow of lower-dosed poison? And I think what you meant to say was, Lady Olenna, by the sheerest, practically unimaginable, stroke of luck, was in the right place at the right time... 19 hours ago, Megorova said: Do you think that the pie was poisoned not with the usage of stones from Sansa's hair-net, but with some other poison? Then why did GRRM wrote so many hints and details about what was happening between Dontos, Sansa, Olenna, and gemstones in that hair-net? Or do you think that it was Garlan, who took one of stones from Sansa's net, and that he stuffed that stone into Tyrion's pie, in a timeframe between servant putting that pie in front of Tyrion and Joffrey taking it? The pie was in front of Tyrion, that was sitting at his seat. And when he got up from his seat, by that time Joffrey was already going towards them. Probably he wanted to take back his cup, and when he was just a few steps away from them, he noticed that Tyrion is getting up, and stopped him. So when Tyrion and Sansa turned away from Tyrion's plate, Joffrey was already close to them and was looking in their direction. So he would have noticed, if Garlan was stuffing something inside that pie, on Tyrion's plate. Don't you think so? Of course Lady O palmed the poison from the hairnet. Where did you get the idea that I think otherwise? Why would anyone bother to wait until the pie is in front of Tyrion before putting the poison in. The speed at which the pie is served immediately after the cutting is clear evidence that it is very close at that moment -- most likely somewhere behind Tyrion, since this would be the place for servants to be delivering food to the guests. And who else is in the immediate area, who Tyrion did not even notice until she spoke? Why Lady Olenna, of course. So now we have poison, poisoner and target all right there, out of sight of virtually everybody. No long, magical reaches around chairs and across tables. No need to worry about a thousand pairs of eyes catching a sudden movement. Just Lady O and a pie within easy reach. At best she has to keep an eye on the servant, who might not even be holding the plate at this point, to make sure he's looking upward at the crucial half-second it takes to tuck the crystal into the filling. No co-conspirators needed, no trusted servants, no risk of involving other family members, no question as to exactly where you need to be at exactly the right time... Lady O and Lady O alone can accomplish this easily with no one the wiser but Littelfinger. 19 hours ago, Megorova said: When the pie was brough in, everyone was standing, shouting, there was lots of commotion. People were already very drunk. So even if in the middle of pie cutting, Olenna would have climbed on top of the table (either to put a poison in Joffrey's cup, or to lie there down to have a nap on a tabletop), nobody would have noticed. Honestly? Now you have Lady Olenna climbing on the table and dropping the poison, and not even Tyrion or Sansa see this? I'm afraid you have officially gone off the deep end. 19 hours ago, Megorova said: This was 3rd singer: Alaric was fourth out of seven singers that were supposed to entertain wedding guests. Could be that Olenna and Garlan planned in advance, that one of them will poison Joffrey in the middle of the festivities, so fourth singer out of seven is exactly the middle. And he was supposed to sing "The Rains of Castamere", or Olenna just said it, and it was also one of their signs. Probably it was a command to Garlan, that he should do the poisoning, take the stone from her, and put it in Joffrey's cup as soon as there will be a chance to do it. Got any actual facts to back this up? Anything at all? Secret signals, a singer is now part of the plot, and Garlan is all set to not only murder his king before the entire court, but do so using a coward's weapon that must be deployed in the blink of an eye or the opportunity is lost and poor Margaery is doomed. And just pray to the gods that not a single person out of a thousand just happens to catch a quick motion out of the corner of their eye. Put yourself in that position and ask yourself how steady your resolve would be knowing the kind of tortuous death you and your entire family would face if you fail. 19 hours ago, Megorova said: Though you're probably right about one thing - there indeed was something wrong with that pie, only it wasn't what you think. It wasn't poisoned, it was a signal for Sansa, that it's time for her to get out from there. Look: Sansa wasn't pale moments before LEMONED pie was placed in front of them. She became pale when she saw lemon cream. LF knew that Sansa likes lemons, so he used lemon creme to signal Sansa that it's time to go, and because she realised that she has to go now, that's why she palled. Really? This is Sansa's secret signal, and yet this little detail fails to enter her thoughts even once during her numerous POVs both before and after the wedding? Try again. 19 hours ago, Megorova said: If it was contact poison, then there is a risk that it can poison not only thru oral consumption, but also thru contact with skin. And Olenna ripped it out of hair-net with bare hands. And Sansa was wearing that ornament for a long time, since Dontos gave it to her. And when she noticed that one of stones is missing, there was left a dark smudge where the crystal was. Which proves that it wasn't a real gemstone, it was a compressed poisonous powder, and some of it was left on the hair-net. Sansa was rubbing place where the stone was, and her hands were sweaty, because she was in a state of stress. So if it was a contact poison, then added to her damp skin, it should have killed her. But it didn't. So it was not a contact poison. Olenna and Sansa being in direct contact with those amethysts prove that it's not poisonous to the touch. And it doesn't actually matter what part of body will be touched by powdered poison, whether it's a dry hands of an old granny, or sweaty hands of nervous Sansa, or mouth of Joffrey. Even if the stone was in the piece of pie that Joffrey took, and he washed it down with wine, it still needed time for the wine to dissolve at least part of it, enough for the poison to become liquid and to go thru mucous membrane of Joffrey's mouth and throat, to start working. Joffrey started coughting when he barely put first portion of pie in his mouth. Which proves that the poison already was in his body, even before he touched that pie. So the poison was not in the pie. You're absolutely sure that the poison was in the pie, and thus you're just ignoring all facts from the books, that prove that poison was in the wine. Yes, Lady Olenna would have to be very careful about what and how she ate after handling the poison. But since none of the dishes mentioned by Tyrion were finger foods, this isn't too much of a problem. I don't know where you're getting this "compressed powder" description. All the mentions I've seen refer to it as a crystal. Please offer some text if you have any. How on earth do you suppose that a smudge of poison on her finger is going to suddenly attack her throat? Did she lick her finger? Eat anything afterward? Do you honestly imagine that the poison could penetrate her skin, enter her blood and then make a bee-line to her throat. Do you know anything at all about physiology, chemistry? Do you understand the difference between the rough skin at the ends of the fingers -- particularly for a practiced seamstress like Sansa -- and the soft, porous membrane in the throat? Try a little thought experiment: if you dropped a drop of ammonia on the end of your finger, and provided you had no cuts or open wounds, do you think it would burn? But what do you suppose would happen if you put the same drop on the back of your tongue? Sorry, but facts are facts. It takes a minute at least for the blood to circulate through the body, so there is no possible way that Cressen could drink the poison and start choking five seconds later. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the strangler works on contact with the throat. The physical proof of the two poisonings, the logistical impossibility of doing the chalice, the way in which the death of the king runs completely counter to the objectives of the plotters, and the fact that virtually everyone, from Lady Olenna to Margaery to Garlan, Mace, Leonette, all of these unnamed trusted servants, and even Joffrey himself all have to be lying, and the only person telling the truth in all of this is Littlefinger, utterly disproves the wine, whereas the pie is completely consistent with both text and real-world facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 How tall is Sansa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foot_Of_The_King Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 On 12/19/2017 at 3:38 PM, John Suburbs said: Then Tommen would have been the target for the poison at the Purple Wedding, not Tyrion. How can you possibly claim you didn't hijack the thread when you wrote this a mere 2 comments in?? Dude..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 18 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: This is what you believe. None of it is based on the text. The concentration of poison in either of the two wines is never stated in the text. Where does Cressen say his wine is ordinary? He never gives us the color of his wine. You say it "ordinary" because it fits your theory better. The text doesn't give a color. Joffrey's wine is "deep purple" while Cressen does not see anything unusual about his wine at all. So the only text we have shows that Joffrey's wine is the more poisoned. If you have text that shows Cressen's is the more poisoned, please share. Sorry, but the burden is on you to explain why Cressen fails to notice the unusual color of his wine, not on me to explain why he failed to specifically note that his ordinary-looking wine looked completely ordinary. Does he need to state that the cup looked perfectly normal as well, or the table, or the walls...? But we can also put on our thinking caps and use basic logic to ascertain the likelihood of Cressen having more poison based on the other facts we know. If the contention as that Cressen's wine is more concentrated than "deep purple" and that this would shorten the reaction time five- or six-fold, then it stands to reason that Cressen's wine should also be five or six times more purple than "deep purple." So even if you think Cressen is so utterly braindead not to notice this, we now have to question why anyone would consider such a easily detectable poison an effective way to kill powerful, high-value targets like kings and high lords. Cressen only puts a tiny "flake" of a crystal into a normal amount of wine, so if this small amount is enough to so obviously discolor the wine, then surely in the hundreds, if not thousands, of years of the strangler's existence someone would have figured out that maybe deploying it in crystal form in wine is not the best way to do it, and that maybe a better way is to crush it into a powder and drop a few grains at a time. So sorry, but given the absence of any indication that Cressen's wine is in fact more poisoned than Joffrey's and the inconsistency that this would produce with what we know about the strangler's history, then there is absolutely no reason to conclude that Cressen consumed more poison than Joffrey. 19 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: This worked out well for them, yes. If they didn't do it here they would have found another opportunity. Are you working under the assumption that they were trying to frame Tyrion from the start? It worked out well? The chalice wound up in one of the most improbable places in the room, in literally the exact spot they needed it to be -- a foot to the left or a foot to the right and it would have been out of reach -- at exactly the right time when people's attention would be drawn to the cutting, and all of this after a series of utterly improbable events that could not possibly have been predicted nor planned for, and you just blow this off as "it worked out well"? This is the culmination of months of planning, even decades of dynastic maneuvering, in which every detail has been arranged meticulously -- from the acquisition of the poison to the crafting of the hairnet to delivery of the hairnet to making sure it was worn to the wedding to retrieving the crystal -- but when it comes to actually deploying the poison they just figured, "well, we'll wing it; some opportunity will just magically present itself." What nonsense. I am working on the proven certainty that they were trying to kill Tyrion, not frame him. Without removing Tyrion from the game, Sansa is practically worthless. As long as she remains Mrs. Tyrion Lannister she cannot deliver Winterfell to anyone else, so, yes, elimination of Tyrion was critical. But even under your hopelessly flawed theory, framing Tyrion would be essential for the same reasons as above, and it is the only way the Littlefinger could come up with a plausible explanation to Lady O as to why he is now sticking his neck out to save Margaery after it was his lie who got her into this jam in the first place. (There are still umpteen problems with this rationale, but this will do for now). 19 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Why do they need to be afraid of him to want him dead? Well, what other reason would there be to kill Joffrey? Every poster I've ever encountered on this subject maintains that both Lady O and Margaery were afraid that Joff would hurt Margaery. What reason do you propose? 19 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Why does this matter? Because there is absolutely nothing in the text that even hints that Joffrey poses a danger to Margaery. So if Margaery is in absolutely no danger, and the very next day she will wake up as queen and her womb will likely be carrying the fulfillment of their utmost desire, the next King of Westeros, then what possible reason would they have for ruining all of that on the hope that maybe, five years from now or more, she will have everything that she has now but with a different husband? Wouldn't the better solution be to bear Joffrey's children first, and then wait and see if he actually starts hurting her before killing him quietly and in private rather than risking the heads of virtually the entire Tyrell family on an unbelievable risky plan that has them poisoning him directly in front of thousands of people? 19 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: Why does this matter. And even if we accept this as one possible motivation (among others), they would no longer be able to say there was no consummation. Killing Joff at the wedding leaves no doubt. Not that this is the only motivation anyways. Again, I'd like to hear your other motivations for taking the extreme step of regicide in one of the most riskiest ways imaginable if they did not think Joffrey posed any danger to anyone. Why would they need to worry about consummation? Once she gives birth to the new king, plus any princes, she becomes the Queen Mother, and if Joffrey dies she becomes Queen Regent until her son comes of age. No need to remarry at all, even if this was a reason why she could never get married again, which it clearly is not. 19 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: I know it can be dissolved in wine. Does the text say it can be dissolved in food? Does the text say Tyrion must breathe oxygen to stay alive? Things that are painfully obvious do not have to be stated, and what you are suggesting is highly improbable, if not downright impossible. To say that the strangler dissolves in wine and only in wine is to say that it is unlike any crystal in the entire history of crystals. So again, if you are going to pose the most unlikely of circumstances to support your theory, you'll have to do better than the text doesn't say so explicitly. Indeed, this is laughable given your contention up above that Cressen's wine was more poisoned even though there is nothing in the text that even remotely suggests this. But if this is your standard, that a character's words are the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then I'll see your "dissolved in wine" and raise you with the words of the victim as he is choking to death on the throne room floor: "It's, kof, the pie, kof, noth -- kof, pie." Show me your text that has Joffrey saying there is anything else causing him distress but the pie, or, by your own rules, concede that it could only be the pie and nothing but the pie. 21 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: I don't work under the assumption that the two poisonings have to occur in the exact same timeframe. What two poisonings? What are you talking about? You contend that the pie could not contain the poison because it only dissolves in wine. I demonstrate to you clearly with facts directly from the text, that there was wine present in his mouth and throat along with the poisoned pie. So even if your extremely unlikely contention is true, that still does not prove your point because he had both pie and wine in his mouth. 21 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: If only we knew the Strangler could be dissolved in pie... And if only LF and Lady O knew it could be dissolved in pie when maesters of the Citadel do not... We know that every kind of crystal known to man can dissolve in multiple substances, although some are far more resilient than others. We know that wine is anywhere from 75 percent to 90 percent water. We also know that the strangler dissolves very quickly in wine, so its crystalline structure is not very resilient. So if it dissolves completely in wine in seconds, it doesn't require a huge stretch to conclude that it will at least soften considerably in a hot, moist (as in water) piece of pie. LF has deep connections to the Iron Bank, which has deep ties to the Faceless Men who know how to make the strangler and all of its properties. Gees, talk about rejecting anything and everything that does not conform to your theory. 21 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: There is no way to determine the odds of whether or not Joff would take the front corner bite of pie in his two fistfuls. Do you see what kind if mental hurdles one needs to make to believe the poison is in the pie? Very low ones, in fact. How big do you think this piece of pie is, which the author describes as a "slice"? If it's from a normal eight-inch pie pan, than it's approximately four inches long and perhaps four inches at its widest. So, if you are staring down at a slice of pie from above and you had a notion to pick up a handful and eat it, would you take it from the wide, curved side or the pointed side? How much do you think Joffrey can stuff in his mouth at once, so full, in fact, the flakes of crust are flying out of his mouth as he coughs? And then he takes a second handful and shoves that into his gob. So we have two big handfuls from a piece of pie that could probably be finished in four or five bites and, sorry once again, but the odds of him eating the poison are significantly greater than not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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