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What if Tywin had Tommen marry Sansa?

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The key thing about Sansa was that she was entirely in Tywin's control. The dynastic pros/cons of marrying her to either Tommen or Tyrion can be debated, but the point, as Tywin said, is that Tyrion was extremely hard to marry off. Certainly none of the great houses would have taken an offer up (several had already declined). On the other hand, once the Lannisters/Baratheons were secure, houses would be tripping over each other to marry their daughters to the king's younger brother, possible lord of Storms End, and current heir to the IT. Therefore, take the opportunity of marrying the one girl from a great house who could be made to do so to Tyrion (who is also in a position to consummate), and save Tommen for another alliance. 

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19 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The key thing about Sansa was that she was entirely in Tywin's control. The dynastic pros/cons of marrying her to either Tommen or Tyrion can be debated, but the point, as Tywin said, is that Tyrion was extremely hard to marry off. Certainly none of the great houses would have taken an offer up (several had already declined). On the other hand, once the Lannisters/Baratheons were secure, houses would be tripping over each other to marry their daughters to the king's younger brother, possible lord of Storms End, and current heir to the IT. Therefore, take the opportunity of marrying the one girl from a great house who could be made to do so to Tyrion (who is also in a position to consummate), and save Tommen for another alliance. 

And I think Tywin felt that he was rewardingTyrion. He had just made him Master of Coin and given him one of the most beautiful girls in the realm with impeccable lineage and the potential claim to Winterfell. 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

And I think Tywin felt that he was rewardingTyrion. He had just made him Master of Coin and given him one of the most beautiful girls in the realm with impeccable lineage and the potential claim to Winterfell. 

Agreed. We do see that Tywin, after Tyrion's stint as Hand, has a certain respect for his abilities. He makes him Master of Coin, turns to him when Kevan has a breakdown, and also consults him on things like how to appease the Dornish, what to do about Joffery, and who to marry Cersei to.

In fact, you could argue that this process started after the Battle of the Green Fork, when Tyrion first showed he could operate. Jaime was captured, and Cersei was proving herself to be demonstrably inept. Tyrion managed to rally the hill tribes and lead a flank in the battle. 

He clearly still hates Tyrion, but has a kind of grudging respect for him I think. 

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12 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Agreed. We do see that Tywin, after Tyrion's stint as Hand, has a certain respect for his abilities. He makes him Master of Coin, turns to him when Kevan has a breakdown, and also consults him on things like how to appease the Dornish, what to do about Joffery, and who to marry Cersei to.

In fact, you could argue that this process started after the Battle of the Green Fork, when Tyrion first showed he could operate. Jaime was captured, and Cersei was proving herself to be demonstrably inept. Tyrion managed to rally the hill tribes and lead a flank in the battle. 

He clearly still hates Tyrion, but has a kind of grudging respect for him I think. 

Absolutely. And I think Kevan tries to point this out to Tyrion. 

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22 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

When he takes him Tywin's offer during the trial?

No. By then Kevan appeared to believe Tyrion had murdered his nephew. It was when the match was decided, I think...

Quote

Ser Kevan seldom "had a thought" that Lord Tywin had not had first.

Tyrion VIII, Game 62

Quote

His uncle Kevan had been the warmest, going so far as to kiss his cheek and say, "Lancel has told me how brave you were, Tyrion. He speaks very highly of you."

"We have no lack of foes," said Ser Kevan Lannister. "If the Eyrie can be kept out of the war, all to the good. I am of a mind to see what Lord Petyr can accomplish."

Ser Kevan was his brother's vanguard in council, Tyrion knew from long experience; he never had a thought that Lord Tywin had not had first. It has all been settled beforehand, he concluded, and this discussion's no more than show.

The sheep were bleating their agreement, unaware of how neatly they'd been shorn, so it fell to Tyrion to object. "How will the crown pay its debts without Lord Petyr? He is our wizard of coin, and we have no one to replace him."

Littlefinger smiled. "My little friend is too kind. All I do is count coppers, as King Robert used to say. Any clever tradesman could do as well . . . and a Lannister, blessed with the golden touch of Casterly Rock, will no doubt far surpass me."

"A Lannister?" Tyrion had a bad feeling about this.

Lord Tywin's gold-flecked eyes met his son's mismatched ones. "You are admirably suited to the task, I believe."

"Indeed!" Ser Kevan said heartily. "I've no doubt you'll make a splendid master of coin, Tyrion."

...

Tyrion rubbed at the raw stub of his nose. The scar tissue itched abominably sometimes. "His Grace the royal pustule has made Sansa's life a misery since the day her father died, and now that she is finally rid of Joffrey you propose to marry her to me. That seems singularly cruel. Even for you, Father."

"Why, do you plan to mistreat her?" His father sounded more curious than concerned. "The girl's happiness is not my purpose, nor should it be yours. Our alliances in the south may be as solid as Casterly Rock, but there remains the north to win, and the key to the north is Sansa Stark."

"She is no more than a child."

"Your sister swears she's flowered. If so, she is a woman, fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as her husband."

Shae is all the woman I need just now, he thought, and Sansa's a girl, no matter what you say. "If your purpose here is to keep her from the Tyrells, why not return her to her mother? Perhaps that would convince Robb Stark to bend the knee."

Lord Tywin's look was scornful. "Send her to Riverrun and her mother will match her with a Blackwood or a Mallister to shore up her son's alliances along the Trident. Send her north, and she will be wed to some Manderly or Umber before the moon turns. Yet she is no less dangerous here at court, as this business with the Tyrells should prove. She must marry a Lannister, and soon."

"The man who weds Sansa Stark can claim Winterfell in her name," his uncle Kevan put in. "Had that not occurred to you?"

Tyrion III, Storm 19

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11 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tyrion III, Storm 19

Very good points, thanks. 

It should be added that I think Kevan probably had a higher opinion of Tyrion than Tywin did. He just comes across as more sympathetic in how he speaks to him. 

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1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

He clearly still hates Tyrion, but has a kind of grudging respect for him I think. 

Absolutely. I always wonder what the relationship would be like if Tyrion had not married Tysha or been so into the whores. Is being height challenged enough by itself for Tywin to treat Tyrion as he does? If Joanna had survived the birth? 

If Lancel had been healthy enough to consummate, would Tywin have actually had him marry Sansa? Or is Tyrion correct?

Quote

Ser Kevan hesitated. “If we bring the girl to his bedside, he could say the words … but to consummate, no … I would suggest one of the twins, but the Starks hold them both at Riverrun. They have Genna’s boy Tion as well, else he might serve.”

Tyrion let them have their byplay; it was all for his benefit, he knew.

I tend to believe Tyrion is correct, but I think it is an interesting question. Does Tywin actually want to reward Tyrion, or does he just want a Lannister to marry Sansa. 

 

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3 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Very good points, thanks. 

It should be added that I think Kevan probably had a higher opinion of Tyrion than Tywin did. He just comes across as more sympathetic in how he speaks to him. 

Like Garlan Tyrell too. 

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14 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

We know there are different forms and kinds of poisons in Westeros with different effects. Again with people comparing two totally different issues and imply that George wrote them as comparisons to one another. I don't think that's the case. Joffrey was the target and it was his wine. I'll make it clear why I believe so in a second. And what motivation do these supposed principal plotters have to kill off Tyrion, and whom are these principal plotters you're referring to? Joffrey spitting out small pie crusts means nothing, he was talking with his mouth full, anyone knows that if you talk with a mouth full of food, which is rude to do anyway but thats neither here nor there, you're going to be spitting out some food particles. Joffrey never has a "huge amount of deep purple wine" I'll get into this in a second. And its never stated in that Tyrion chapter that Joffrey placed the chalice directly in front of Ser Garlan, not once. And if I'm not mistaken, Ser Garlan was seated at the far right end with his wife, closer to Tyrion than Joffrey, which is why the three (Tyrion, Lady Leonette & Ser Garlan) are able to speak to each other in low tones and during Galyeons singing.

 

You say it was the pie and meant for Tyrion, yet all Margarey says is, "Ser Addam has a toast he wants to make as well.." That isn't very long dialogue. Ser Addam never ends up actually making the toast because of Joffreys interactions with Tyrion, he has no wine at this point. He bullies Tyrion into being his cupbearer, he kicks the cup under Tyrion's legs, Tyrion has to get under the table and find the chalice, which is the point Cersei and others claim Tyrion had the chance to poison the chalice. He forces Tyrion to kneel and hand him the cup, which Tyrion does, Joffrey then places the cup on the table and this long exchange occurs with the pie, Joffrey first wanting to use Widows Wail to open the pie, instead he's given Ice from Ser Ilyn and uses this to cut the pie, he and Margaery. Tyrions pie is then placed infront of him by the serving man, neither he nor Sansa are too excited or have much of an appetite, they try to leave. Joffrey begins bullying Tyrion again, Tyrion again gets the chalice, which for minutes now I'm assuming has been sitting on the table, Joffrey chugs and this is when we're told of the purple coloring running down his chin. All Margaery says is for her and Joffrey to return to their places for Lord Bucklers toast, which also never happens because of Joffreys bullying of Tyrion. Joffrey then grabs a fistful of Tyrions pie, and eats it. Why would he eat a pie that he knew was poisoned? And I'm assuming these principle plotters would be those within the court, it's highly unlikely they'd plan Tyrions murder and not let Joffrey know about it, someone who despises his uncle. Tywin clearly has plans for Tyrion to become Warden of The North and Lord of Winterfell, what would be the motivation for murdering Tyrion, again? Joffrey only coughs once after eating the fistful of Tyrions pie. He takes another, and doesn't cough, talks clearly when he says "dry though, needs some washing down." And the moment he drinks the wine again he coughs again more violently, with each swallow of the wine he coughs more violently, George writes that clearly. Then the same wine that is described as purple running down his chin, is now spilled and its described as being dark red as its flowing and spreading out  on the floor. Joffrey keels over, claws at the flesh on his throat so much as making gouges into the flesh of his neck. His face gets darker as people are trying to help, he's reaching or pointing toward Tyrion, whom is thinking if the boy is begging for his forgiveness of him or calling for his help. At this point, Tyrion begins to feel for a second, thinking the boy is only thirteen. He picks up the chalice, and notices that there's still a half inch of purple "wine" in the cup. Again, when the wine flows it's described as being dark red, yet in two instances this purple liquid is observed within this chalice. Tyrion makes the bad decision of pouring the remaining purple "wine" onto the floor. In the next chapter it's made evident that it wasn't the pie. But indeed poison which was stored into the little stones of Sansa's hair net, which Ser Dontos told her near the beginning of the book, that she had to wear on this specific occasion of Joffreys wedding day. Of course Dontos tries to convince Sansa that this isn't the case, claiming it was "pie, silver and stones, and magic", and Sansa doesn't believe him. Dontos informs her that Tyrion was arrested because" she thinks he did it", clearly implying that he actually does know whom poisoned boy King Joffrey. Littlefinger makes it clear and pretty obvious that he was behind the poisoning of Joffrey. "Why should I wish him dead? Littlefinger shrugged. I had no motive. Besides, I am a thousand leagues away in the Vale. Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes, the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that Sansa, when you come to play the game." "What...What game?" "The only game. The Game Of Thrones."

 

Littlefinger and George makes this clear that Joffrey was the target, not Tyrion. The purple "wine" sentences make clear that it was poison in the wine, not the pie. Littlefinger essentially says he had the perfect opportunity, and the perfect motive to have Joffrey removed and that motive being nothing, it leaves no suspicion on him. He basically carried out the perfect murder.

OK, this is a lot, but I'll try and take it piece by piece:

There is no mention in the text of different forms of the strangler. It is a very old recipe, perfected by the order of alchemists on Lys who devote their entire lives to such things. It requires very rare ingredients to be combined in extremely precise amounts and subjected to a lengthy and exacting process. So there is no reason to believe that Joffrey's poison would be weaker or slower to act.

As to motivations: Littlefinger must get rid of Tyrion because he is now Master of Coin and is on the verge of uncovering all of LF's embezzlement schemes that has funneled probably half the crown's debt into LF's account at the Iron Bank. Lady O must get rid of Tyrion before he can father a son on Sansa, which would give Tywin a blood tie to Winterfell and thus control of the north. If you look at history, Highgarden has been the dominant house in the realm for thousands of years, derived primarily by the marriage alliances with the Hightowers and Redwynes. Tywin is a mad dog tyrant who burns rival's lands and castles to the ground, exterminates their families and betrays his allies to sack and burn their cities without warning. And since the end of Robert's Rebellion, Tywin has placed his heirs on the Iron Throne, the Baratheon seat at Storm's End, and is about to put his sister at Riverrun, eventually turning the castle over to Tywin's namesake nephew. This gives him control of the westerlands, the crownlands, the stormlands and the riverlands. Add the north to the mix and he has all he needs to field an army that would dwarf the Tyrell's. The shifting balance of power in the realm to a ruthless, heartless warlord is what keeps Lady O up and night, not whether Joffrey will maybe someday give Margaery a black eye.

The text makes it perfectly clear that Joffrey is consuming a huge amount of wine after it is supposedly poisoned, and that Margaery speaks longer then Mel:

Quote

Joff yanked it from his hands and drank long and deep, his throat working as the wine ran purple down his chin. "My lord," Margaery said, "we should return to our places. Lord Buckler wants to toast us."

Whereas with Cressen, we have "only a half swallow of wine remaining." And then:

Quote

The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. "He does have power here, my lord," the woman said. "And fire cleanses." At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.

Cressen tried to reply, but his words caught in his throat.

So Cressen's scene takes about five seconds from consuming his tiny amount of normal-looking wine to the inability to speak, while Joffrey gulps down multiple chugs of wine that is supposedly so poisoned it has turned deep purple. We can see by the timing of the two sentences that are uttered that at least an equal amount of time has gone by since the poison should have first touched Joffrey's throat, and we aren't even close to the point where he tries to speak but cannot. These are the indisputable facts laid out plain as day in the text. The line about Ser Addam's toast is before the cutting, so I don't see the relevance here.

If Ser Garlan did not drop the crystal into the chalice, then who did? Lady Olenna? The woman is barely five feet tall and the lip of the chalice is three-feet above the surface of the table and so far inward that Tyrion has to climb into his seat just to reach the stem. Lady Leonette? Sansa describes her as "dainty." Also unlikely to be able to reach the lip, and it would have to be placed even more precisely for her than for Garlan. The serving girl? Tyrion grabbed the flagon as she passed by. Did the plotters plan on this as well, and count on nobody else calling for wine before she got to the area? The only plausible culprit is Garlan, who would be literally sacrificing his honor as a knight by using poison, and the chalice must be placed directly in front of him if he is even to have a one-in-a-million chance to drop the crystal without being seen by the thousand people in the room who are facing in his direction. We don't know in what order they were sitting, but they are all very close, which makes it even less likely that Garlan would be able to extend his arm to the lip of the chalice while two short people, Tyrion and Sansa, are looking right past it as the pigeons take flight.

Your description of the action up to the cutting is fairly accurate, but I'll ask the question again. The goal here is to kill Joffrey and frame Tyrion, so how could they possibly know that any spat arising from the dwarf joust, if one arises at all, will involve the chalice, that Tyrion would be named cup-bearer and thus have a reason to even touch the chalice, or that Joffrey would place the chalice directly in front of the poisoner? These are completely unpredictable events, and if even one of them does not take place the whole scheme is bust and Margy is marched off to the bedding a few moments later. How on earth could anyone have known that the two victims in this plan are going to behave exactly in this way to not only get the poison into the chalice, but the wine into Joffrey and not Margaery, and draw suspicion onto Tyrion?

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Joffrey knows the pie is poisoned. Why would LF or LO need to involve Joffrey?

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Tywin was involved either.

No, not "with each swallow of wine he coughs more violently." He took multiple swallows of wine before eating the pie and showed not the slightest reaction over perhaps triple the time it took Cressen to succumb. Joffrey eats the pie and coughs slightly, then he washes it down with wine and seconds later, he tries to speak but "his words broke up in a fit of coughing." The time between the poison pie hitting Joffrey's throat and his fit of coughing is virtually identical to Cressen's swallow and when "the words caught in his throat."

The next chapter hardly makes it evident the poison was in the wine. Of course Dontos knows Tyrion did not poison Joffrey because he has been working with Littlefinger this whole time. To think that Dontos knows the entire plan is a huge stretch because he does not need to know. His only job was to get the hairnet to Sansa and make sure she wore it to the wedding. And of course Littlefinger knows by now that Joffrey is dead and not Tyrion. It's almost dawn by the time he picks up Sansa; Joffrey has been dead for about eight hours. It is utterly incredulous to think that LF does not have eyes and ears in the Red Keep and way to find out exactly what is happening. What if something goes wrong and while he is twiddling his thumbs out in the bay all night long Tywin hasn't beaten a confession out of Sansa, Lady O, Garlan and anyone else involved and the royal fleet is now scouring the bay looking for him. Of all the excuses for the wine, the idea that LF would be content to just sit on his boat, in the dark, all night long and just wait for Sansa to come rowing up out of the mist is the most ludicrous. And this excuse of his is even more preposterous. Do something random to confuse your enemies, and in this case he decides he's going to poison the King of Westeros right in front of 1000 witnesses and hope all of these completely random events he is expecting to take place actually happen? Littlefinger is the biggest liar in the book, and practically the entire reading universe swallows this line without question. Hilarious.

George Martin has never made it clear that the poison was in the wine and Joffrey was the target. For the show, perhaps, but not the book.

 

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9 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Not being funny, but this seems like a rather brazen attempt to crowbar your theory into an entirely separate discussion. I don't tend to mind things go off on a tangent organically out of a discussion, but it's kind of annoying when one's pretty much hijacked two comments in, and the thread becomes filled up with an unrelated subject, going over arguments that have been had several times before. 

People ask questions. I answer them. The only reason it goes on and on is because other posters try to "prove" their theory with an endless stream of non-facts and completely imaginary suppositions.

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8 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@John Suburbs, you have managed to take a thread titled "What if Tywin had Tommen marry Sansa?" down your, er Preston's, purple wedding ideas. There are two other threads where you have this going on as well. Interesting.

Yes, it is the answer to the OP's question. Tommen would have to die instead of Tyrion, to prevent Tywin from gaining control of the north.

When he asked for proof that the poison was in the pie, I gave it to him. Clear, unimpeachable proof taken directly from the text.

And if this is Preston's theory then I must be unwittingly psychic, since for at least the past five years I have been trying to explain this to anyone who has an open mind and the common sense to base theories on facts rather than invent their own facts to support their preferred theory.

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On 2017-12-20 at 3:53 AM, Angel Eyes said:

If it’s the opposite, who do you trust? 

And I don’t drink kool aid.

Koolaid is a Jonestown reference, so good for you not partaking ;) 

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14 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

OK, this is a lot, but I'll try and take it piece by piece:

There is no mention in the text of different forms of the strangler. It is a very old recipe, perfected by the order of alchemists on Lys who devote their entire lives to such things. It requires very rare ingredients to be combined in extremely precise amounts and subjected to a lengthy and exacting process. So there is no reason to believe that Joffrey's poison would be weaker or slower to act.*

As to motivations: Littlefinger must get rid of Tyrion because he is now Master of Coin and is on the verge of uncovering all of LF's embezzlement schemes that has funneled probably half the crown's debt into LF's account at the Iron Bank. Lady O must get rid of Tyrion before he can father a son on Sansa, which would give Tywin a blood tie to Winterfell and thus control of the north. If you look at history, Highgarden has been the dominant house in the realm for thousands of years, derived primarily by the marriage alliances with the Hightowers and Redwynes. Tywin is a mad dog tyrant who burns rival's lands and castles to the ground, exterminates their families and betrays his allies to sack and burn their cities without warning. And since the end of Robert's Rebellion, Tywin has placed his heirs on the Iron Throne, the Baratheon seat at Storm's End, and is about to put his sister at Riverrun, eventually turning the castle over to Tywin's namesake nephew. This gives him control of the westerlands, the crownlands, the stormlands and the riverlands. Add the north to the mix and he has all he needs to field an army that would dwarf the Tyrell's. The shifting balance of power in the realm to a ruthless, heartless warlord is what keeps Lady O up and night,** not whether Joffrey will maybe someday give Margaery a black eye.

The text makes it perfectly clear that Joffrey is consuming a huge amount of wine after it is supposedly poisoned***, and that Margaery speaks longer then Mel:

Whereas with Cressen, we have "only a half swallow of wine remaining." And then:

So Cressen's scene takes about five seconds from consuming his tiny amount of normal-looking wine to the inability to speak, while Joffrey gulps down multiple chugs of wine that is supposedly so poisoned it has turned deep purple.**** We can see by the timing of the two sentences that are uttered that at least an equal amount of time has gone by since the poison should have first touched Joffrey's throat, and we aren't even close to the point where he tries to speak but cannot. These are the indisputable facts laid out plain as day in the text. The line about Ser Addam's toast is before the cutting, so I don't see the relevance here.

If Ser Garlan did not drop the crystal into the chalice, then who did? Lady Olenna? The woman is barely five feet tall and the lip of the chalice is three-feet above the surface of the table and so far inward that Tyrion has to climb into his seat just to reach the stem. Lady Leonette? Sansa describes her as "dainty." Also unlikely to be able to reach the lip, and it would have to be placed even more precisely for her than for Garlan. The serving girl? Tyrion grabbed the flagon as she passed by. Did the plotters plan on this as well, and count on nobody else calling for wine before she got to the area? The only plausible culprit is Garlan, who would be literally sacrificing his honor as a knight by using poison, and the chalice must be placed directly in front of him if he is even to have a one-in-a-million chance to drop the crystal without being seen by the thousand people in the room who are facing in his direction. We don't know in what order they were sitting, but they are all very close, which makes it even less likely that Garlan would be able to extend his arm to the lip of the chalice while two short people, Tyrion and Sansa, are looking right past it as the pigeons take flight.*****

Your description of the action up to the cutting is fairly accurate, but I'll ask the question again. The goal here is to kill Joffrey and frame Tyrion, so how could they possibly know that any spat arising from the dwarf joust, if one arises at all, will involve the chalice, that Tyrion would be named cup-bearer and thus have a reason to even touch the chalice, or that Joffrey would place the chalice directly in front of the poisoner? These are completely unpredictable events, and if even one of them does not take place the whole scheme is bust and Margy is marched off to the bedding a few moments later. How on earth could anyone have known that the two victims in this plan are going to behave exactly in this way to not only get the poison into the chalice, but the wine into Joffrey and not Margaery, and draw suspicion onto Tyrion?

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Joffrey knows the pie is poisoned. Why would LF or LO need to involve Joffrey?

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Tywin was involved either.

No, not "with each swallow of wine he coughs more violently." ******He took multiple swallows of wine before eating the pie and showed not the slightest reaction over perhaps triple the time it took Cressen to succumb. Joffrey eats the pie and coughs slightly, then he washes it down with wine and seconds later, he tries to speak but "his words broke up in a fit of coughing." The time between the poison pie hitting Joffrey's throat and his fit of coughing is virtually identical to Cressen's swallow and when "the words caught in his throat."

The next chapter hardly makes it evident the poison was in the wine. Of course Dontos knows Tyrion did not poison Joffrey because he has been working with Littlefinger this whole time. To think that Dontos knows the entire plan is a huge stretch because he does not need to know. His only job was to get the hairnet to Sansa and make sure she wore it to the wedding. And of course Littlefinger knows by now that Joffrey is dead and not Tyrion. It's almost dawn by the time he picks up Sansa; Joffrey has been dead for about eight hours. It is utterly incredulous to think that LF does not have eyes and ears in the Red Keep and way to find out exactly what is happening. What if something goes wrong and while he is twiddling his thumbs out in the bay all night long Tywin hasn't beaten a confession out of Sansa, Lady O, Garlan and anyone else involved and the royal fleet is now scouring the bay looking for him. Of all the excuses for the wine, the idea that LF would be content to just sit on his boat, in the dark, all night long and just wait for Sansa to come rowing up out of the mist is the most ludicrous. And this excuse of his is even more preposterous. Do something random to confuse your enemies, and in this case he decides he's going to poison the King of Westeros right in front of 1000 witnesses and hope all of these completely random events he is expecting to take place actually happen? Littlefinger is the biggest liar in the book, and practically the entire reading universe swallows this line without question. Hilarious.

George Martin has never made it clear that the poison was in the wine and Joffrey was the target. For the show, perhaps, but not the book.

 

Yea it was a lot, I felt it was needed though..

*- I never said that. What I said was, it's impossible to determine how long it should've taken for the poison to kill Joffrey, by claiming things like "Margaery spoke longer than Melisandre" so Joffrey should've been dead. The text NEVER details in any of those chapters, or ANY chapter matter of fact, the duration of time a person is talking, or the duration of how long a textual scene may be, so therefore, what math are you using to come to these conclusions?

 

**- Wait whut?? You mind explaining that to me again? Littlefinger tells Sansa why he wanted and carried out Joffreys death, in direct response to Sansa asking why he wanted Joffrey dead after he had him married off to the eligible Lysa Arryn, essentially giving him the Vale, named him Lord, gave him the Estates of Harrenhal and made him Lord Paramount Of The Trident, which is a definite step up from MOC. LF doesn't mention Tyrion AT ALL in that passage, nor does he express any ill will toward Tyrion finding out that LF was putting the crown further into debt by borrowing from the Iron Bank, borrowing loans that the crown couldn't possibly pay back. As he said, he's a thousand leagues away in the Vale, thats no longer his responsibility, Tyrion knows this, which is why up until he's arrested, he's collecting on old debts owed to the crown to fix it's accounts. Which is one of the reasons why Tywin assigned him that role of office in the first place "the shifting balance of power to a ruthless, heartless warlord is what keeps Lady O up at night" uhm, book text please which actually states this. Lady Olenna doesn't need to poison Tyrion, and after Sansa is betrothed Lady Olenna or any of the Tyrells period express any intent for the North. Admittedly Lady Olenna takes interest in Sansa, inviting her to  Highgarden with her 2 days after the wedding ceremonies. But again she doesn't need to poison Tyrion, with pie, and giving the chance it can be consumed by someone else, as the implication is, she'll be free of Tyrion honestly as she says that while Sansa would be in Highgarden, Olenna figured Tyrion would be "somewhere leading a Lannister host, against vicious enemies," giving the implication she would've figured Tyrion would've died "somewhere" fighting in the last vestiges of TWOT5K. The North isn't House Tyrell's rival here, it's the Martells, and thats whom they (Olenna & Mace) express most of their negative feelings about.

 

***- Where does the text state this?

 

****- Joffrey doesn't chug down "multiple gulps of wine that have been so poisoned it's turned dark purple". The text doesn't state this either. The text explicitly says that when the wine is pooling out onto the floor it's dark red. As it was when it was first poured as he was drinking a red coloured Arbor, as stated earlier in that chapter. We only get two instances of this Purple "wine" and in each scenario its NEVER described as a large amount. We first get the purple liquid as it runs down his chin, which from the sound of it, wasn't a large amount, atleast it wasn't described as running profusely as he's drinking. Then we get only a half an inch of purple "wine" left in the chalice, which Tyrion pours out onto the floor.

 

*****- Where is Lady Olenna described as being "barely 5 feet tall"? She's the most logical culprit, LF implicates her, and Ser Dontas was the one who told Littlefinger of the Tyrells plan to marry Sansa off to Willas, which led to Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Olenna is also fidgeting with Sansa's hair net, which in the next chapter we learn thats where the poison was stored, within the amethyst stones themselves. Not one time in that chapter does it state Joffrey placed the chalice in front of ANY ONE specific person, let alone Ser Garlan. Again what math are you using to come to the conclusion of how long of an duration these scenes are playing out when the novels make NO mention of it. And we DO know the order of where they were sitting loosely, as the text says it in the same Tyrion chapter, and Ser Garlan was at the far right end, with his wife, next to Tyrion & Sansa. The text explicitly says this, the only reason Tyrion is able to have access to the chalice is because Joffrey forces him to get up and walk to him to serve him and hold his chalice and brings the cup back to him after Joffrey kicks it between Tyrions legs, to the far right of the table. We know the cup was kicked over there as it's Ser Garlan who helps Tyrion up.....And Margaery only sips from the chalice once, and never again after the chalice is placed on the table by Joffrey, not being picked up until he's eating the pie.

 

******- The text says otherwise though, as he coughs once after the eating Tyrions first fistful and talking with his mouth full. Doesn't cough at all aftee the next one says "dry though, needs washing down", the text explicitly says that after he takes the next swallow of wine he begins to cough more violently,then he takes another, doesn't get the chance to swallow all of it, spits some out as again the text says he's coughing more violently. He keels over, then shows over.

 

I didn't say Joffrey or Tywin were involved, I said, assuming your "principal plotters" are within the court, I find it highly unlikely that they wouldn't inform Joffrey, whom despises his dwarf uncle so much, that he'd want nothing more to sit comfortably and watch his uncle prematurely succumb. Or Tywin, whom is so disillusioned with his dwarfish son, he'd most likely wouldn't mind being rid of him. I didn't say Dontas knew the entire plan, I said he knew enough to know Tyrion didn't poison Joffrey, as he was responsible for giving Sansa the hairnet and making sure she wore it on Joffreys wedding day, and that that would be used to poison Joffrey. Littlefinger is a liar , however he doesn't lie about every single thing, and I don't believe him telling Sansa of how he planned to remove Joffrey from the equation is one of them.

 

Therefore there's only two possible options here, Joffrey died from being poisoned by the wine,or he really did mundanely and ironically choke on the pigeon pie, a perfectly fine, in no way poisoned, good pigeon pie that just happened to get stuck in his throat, blocking his air passages and killing him that way. Tyrion being the target and his pie being poisoned is not one of these options. And George R Martin, does make this quite clear in the text of ASOS.

Edited by RhaegoTheUnborn

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10 minutes ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Fair enough, that's pretty vague though. 

It is more than Cressen who was left with pretty empty cup, that is the point.

Edited by Tygett Lannister

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On 12/22/2017 at 9:04 AM, Tygett Lannister said:

It is more than Cressen who was left with pretty empty cup, that is the point.

If you say so. I don't think that's much of a point, if any, when it doesn't very much differentiate that specific "point". And I still don't believe things such as speech durations would matter any, seeing as the text doesn't actually mention how long someone may have been speaking for.

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On 12/21/2017 at 11:10 PM, John Suburbs said:

People ask questions. I answer them. The only reason it goes on and on is because other posters try to "prove" their theory with an endless stream of non-facts and completely imaginary suppositions.

No, you hijacked the thread. It's very obvious to everyone else that you did it. 

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