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What if Tywin had Tommen marry Sansa?

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17 hours ago, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

If you say so. I don't think that's much of a point, if any, when it doesn't very much differentiate that specific "point". And I still don't believe things such as speech durations would matter any, seeing as the text doesn't actually mention how long someone may have been speaking for.

sure thing

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On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:25 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Yea it was a lot, I felt it was needed though..

*- I never said that. What I said was, it's impossible to determine how long it should've taken for the poison to kill Joffrey, by claiming things like "Margaery spoke longer than Melisandre" so Joffrey should've been dead. The text NEVER details in any of those chapters, or ANY chapter matter of fact, the duration of time a person is talking, or the duration of how long a textual scene may be, so therefore, what math are you using to come to these conclusions?

 

Sorry, but both poisonings unfold in real time. We can literally count the seconds as they go by based on the things that are said and the actions that are taken. Use a stopwatch if you want. Cressen: sip, drop, Mel's sentence, choking. It literally takes no longer than seven seconds, and even that is a stretch. Joffrey: multiple chugs of wine, Margaery's sentence, Joffrey's retort, grabs pie, another retort, stuffs pie into his mouth, grabs more pie, another retort, ever so slight cough, "A bit dry though. Need's washing down", drinks wine, harder cough, then one more sentence that Joff cannot finish, aka, the words caught in his throat. We can see clearly, beyond any and all doubt, the Joffrey's wine timeline is several orders of magnitude longer than Cressens, but starting from the moment the pie washed down his throat with the wine, they are virtually identical. Sorry, but that is what's in the text.

On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:25 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

**- Wait whut?? You mind explaining that to me again? Littlefinger tells Sansa why he wanted and carried out Joffreys death, in direct response to Sansa asking why he wanted Joffrey dead after he had him married off to the eligible Lysa Arryn, essentially giving him the Vale, named him Lord, gave him the Estates of Harrenhal and made him Lord Paramount Of The Trident, which is a definite step up from MOC. LF doesn't mention Tyrion AT ALL in that passage, nor does he express any ill will toward Tyrion finding out that LF was putting the crown further into debt by borrowing from the Iron Bank, borrowing loans that the crown couldn't possibly pay back. As he said, he's a thousand leagues away in the Vale, thats no longer his responsibility, Tyrion knows this, which is why up until he's arrested, he's collecting on old debts owed to the crown to fix it's accounts. Which is one of the reasons why Tywin assigned him that role of office in the first place "the shifting balance of power to a ruthless, heartless warlord is what keeps Lady O up at night" uhm, book text please which actually states this. Lady Olenna doesn't need to poison Tyrion, and after Sansa is betrothed Lady Olenna or any of the Tyrells period express any intent for the North. Admittedly Lady Olenna takes interest in Sansa, inviting her to  Highgarden with her 2 days after the wedding ceremonies. But again she doesn't need to poison Tyrion, with pie, and giving the chance it can be consumed by someone else, as the implication is, she'll be free of Tyrion honestly as she says that while Sansa would be in Highgarden, Olenna figured Tyrion would be "somewhere leading a Lannister host, against vicious enemies," giving the implication she would've figured Tyrion would've died "somewhere" fighting in the last vestiges of TWOT5K. The North isn't House Tyrell's rival here, it's the Martells, and thats whom they (Olenna & Mace) express most of their negative feelings about.

Um, and you believe everything that Littlefinger says? Have you noticed that LF is the biggest liar in the book? Under the wine theory, we have to assume that virtually everyone is lying to Sansa: Lady O, Margaery, even Joffrey is only pretending to be totally into Margy at the wedding (something he has been hopelessly inept at prior to this), and the only person telling the truth in all this is Littlefinger?Please. Like the Arryn murder and the Westerling plot and countless murder mysteries through the ages, this is something you have to figure out for yourself based on the clues that have been carefully placed in the text and the subtext. This is what good writers do.

LF is not just running up the crown's debt, he is embezzling gold from the crown and keeping it for himself. This would most definitely become LF's problem if Tyrion finds out (which he will, because he is that smart), no matter where LF is living.

Lol, the whole story is the text that proves what I'm saying about Lady O's fears are correct. Highgarden has been the hegemon through the ages; that hegemony has been maintained by marriage alliances; Tywin has extended his control over the crownlands and westerlands by marriage; he is about to gain the riverlands in this way, and whomever fathers a legal child on Sansa Stark will rule in Winterfell as stated clearly and unambiguously by Ser Kevan.

Also facts: Lady O has successfully navigated her way through an extremely patriarchal society to become the titular head of the most powerful house in the realm. To do that, you need exceptional political skills and a clear-eyed view and where power comes from and how to maintain it. To think that she would blithely allow a mad killer like Tywin to take over more than half the realm simply to prevent Joffrey from giving Margy a black eye someday is a basic, elementary misreading of her character and a gross misunderstanding of the purpose of arranged marriages.

These conclusions have all been drawn from unimpeachable facts taken directly from the text. What is not even remotely hinted at is the notion that Lady O or Margaery are even the slightest bit afraid of Joffrey. Please give me a quote, anything at all, that supports this assumption.

Tyrion's pie will not be consumed by anyone else. Everyone has their own piece of pie, why would anyone eat Tyrion's? The fact that Joff ate it is a completely random, unpredictable event that no one could have expected. This is in stark contrast with the wine, which was a gift to both the bride and groom -- from the Tyrells, no less -- and is intended to answer toasts at key moments in the feast like the pie ceremony (as indeed, there was). So even if, for whatever reason, Joffrey does drink first, now Margy has to come up with an excuse not to drink for a good 20 seconds until Joffrey starts choking, only then to say "whew, it's a good thing that (enter inane excuse here) happened or else I would have been poisoned too. Tough luck, Cersei."

Can't you see that Lady O is just messing with Tyrion when she talks about him leading hosts? Tyrion is a dwarf, has never received a single day of military training and nearly got himself killed at both battles he found himself in. Tywin has plenty of competent knights who know how to lead hosts. Lady O is playing mind games with his ego and his masculinity here.

No, the north is not Highgarden's rival, but it will be if it falls under the domain of the Lannisters.

On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:25 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

***- Where does the text state this?

****- Joffrey doesn't chug down "multiple gulps of wine that have been so poisoned it's turned dark purple". The text doesn't state this either. The text explicitly says that when the wine is pooling out onto the floor it's dark red. As it was when it was first poured as he was drinking a red coloured Arbor, as stated earlier in that chapter. We only get two instances of this Purple "wine" and in each scenario its NEVER described as a large amount. We first get the purple liquid as it runs down his chin, which from the sound of it, wasn't a large amount, atleast it wasn't described as running profusely as he's drinking. Then we get only a half an inch of purple "wine" left in the chalice, which Tyrion pours out onto the floor.

 

I've already told you: Cressen's "half-swallow" vs. Joffrey "drank long a deep, his throat working..." Every time his "throat works" is another huge swallow of wine. Please argue all you want, but don't deny what is plain as day in the text.

Tyrion sees "deep purple" wine at the end of the scene. So if the poison is dropped during the cutting, then this must be the color of the entire quantity of wine in the chalice, particularly once Joffrey grabs it from Tyrion and upends it to, yes, chug it down. Otherwise, we have to come up with some plausible explanation as to why his wine would go from purple on his chin to red on the floor to deep purple at the end. Did somebody add more poison to the chalice after Joff had dropped it? How? And more importantly, why? Is this another unknown property of the strangler -- It takes several minutes to discolor wine? I would love to see some text for that. Sorry, either the poison is in Joffrey's wine when he starts drinking, or it's not. If the poison has been in the wine all this time, then there is no reason to think that the color has remained a constant deep purple through the entire scene, ergo, Joffrey's wine would have been more poisoned than Cressen's seemingly unremarkable half-swallow.

On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:25 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

*****- Where is Lady Olenna described as being "barely 5 feet tall"? She's the most logical culprit, LF implicates her, and Ser Dontas was the one who told Littlefinger of the Tyrells plan to marry Sansa off to Willas, which led to Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Olenna is also fidgeting with Sansa's hair net, which in the next chapter we learn thats where the poison was stored, within the amethyst stones themselves. Not one time in that chapter does it state Joffrey placed the chalice in front of ANY ONE specific person, let alone Ser Garlan. Again what math are you using to come to the conclusion of how long of an duration these scenes are playing out when the novels make NO mention of it. And we DO know the order of where they were sitting loosely, as the text says it in the same Tyrion chapter, and Ser Garlan was at the far right end, with his wife, next to Tyrion & Sansa. The text explicitly says this, the only reason Tyrion is able to have access to the chalice is because Joffrey forces him to get up and walk to him to serve him and hold his chalice and brings the cup back to him after Joffrey kicks it between Tyrions legs, to the far right of the table. We know the cup was kicked over there as it's Ser Garlan who helps Tyrion up.....And Margaery only sips from the chalice once, and never again after the chalice is placed on the table by Joffrey, not being picked up until he's eating the pie.

Sigh.

Quote

Sansa I, Sos

Last of all, Margaery brought her before the wizened white-haired doll of a woman at the head of the table.

Tyrion VIII, Sos

The little old woman reached up and fussed at the loos strands...

She is a shrunken, wizened little old woman. To reach the chalice she would have to squeeze between whomever was sitting near it -- one of whom is Tyrion, since he has to climb into his own chair to retrieve the chalice -- then reach three feet above the surface of the table an arm's length in. Practically impossible for a grown man like Garlan; utterly impossible for Lady O. And remember, they don't just have to drop the poison, but do it without being seen a single one of a thousand people facing in their direction, let alone the people who are standing right there. Garlan is the only possible poisoner for the wine, and even then it's a one-in-a-million shot.

Of course, Lady O could easy do the pie herself. The text states unambiguously that the pie is served within seconds of the pie-cutting, so it has to already be cut and plated and in the immediate vicinity, most likely behind Tyrion, out of sight. Lady O is also on her feet and in the immediate area. So whether the pie is on a table somewhere or already in the hands of the server, she has no trouble at all reaching it. She also could have very easily arranged it so she knows exactly which piece is going to Tyrion, and she has a better than average chance of knowing which will be his one and only bite: the pointy end, which also happens to be the easiest spot to tuck in the crystal.

We can see for ourselves how long it takes these scenes to play out. They unfold in real-time.

There was no way anyone could have known that Joffrey would bound over and start up with Tyrion after the cutting, or that he would leave the chalice right where he did. The most logical assumption is that the chalice would be used to respond to a toast, which would threaten Margaery. You cannot possibly argue that anyone planned for the chalice to be way over near Tyrion and Garlen rather than its proper position at Joffrey and Margy's place at the head table.

 

On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:25 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

******- The text says otherwise though, as he coughs once after the eating Tyrions first fistful and talking with his mouth full. Doesn't cough at all aftee the next one says "dry though, needs washing down", the text explicitly says that after he takes the next swallow of wine he begins to cough more violently,then he takes another, doesn't get the chance to swallow all of it, spits some out as again the text says he's coughing more violently. He keels over, then shows over.

Um, what the text shows is that he does not cough at all before eating the pie despite drinking a large amount of wine, then he coughs slightly, eats more pie, coughs slightly more, drinks wine, and it is barely one-sentence's duration after that his words caught in his throat -- virtually identical to Cressen. Sorry, friend, but those are the facts. Why does this poisoned wine have no affect for the first 15-20 seconds, but then introduces this steadily worsening cough only after Joff eats pie? And how do you square that with Cressen, who eats nothing at all and does not cough even once?

On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:25 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

I didn't say Joffrey or Tywin were involved, I said, assuming your "principal plotters" are within the court, I find it highly unlikely that they wouldn't inform Joffrey, whom despises his dwarf uncle so much, that he'd want nothing more to sit comfortably and watch his uncle prematurely succumb. Or Tywin, whom is so disillusioned with his dwarfish son, he'd most likely wouldn't mind being rid of him. I didn't say Dontas knew the entire plan, I said he knew enough to know Tyrion didn't poison Joffrey, as he was responsible for giving Sansa the hairnet and making sure she wore it on Joffreys wedding day, and that that would be used to poison Joffrey. Littlefinger is a liar , however he doesn't lie about every single thing, and I don't believe him telling Sansa of how he planned to remove Joffrey from the equation is one of them.

I was responding to your statement:

Quote

And I'm assuming these principle plotters would be those within the court, it's highly unlikely they'd plan Tyrions murder and not let Joffrey know about it, someone who despises his uncle. Tywin clearly has plans for Tyrion to become Warden of The North and Lord of Winterfell, what would be the motivation for murdering Tyrion, again?

The only two plotters I have are Littlefinger and Lady O. What possible reason would they have for telling either Joffrey or Tywin about their intent to kill Tyrion? Joffrey is an unpredictable loose cannon -- he is the last person anyone would tell. Tywin set the riverlands on fire merely because Tyrion was kidapped, then he appointed him HotK, MoC and has married him to the daughter of Winterfell so he can rule the largest realm in the kingdom, and you think he won't bat an eyebrow if someone kills him?

Please show me the text that says Dontos knew ahead of time that the plan was to kill Joffrey. His only job was to get the hairnet to Sansa and make sure she wears it to the wedding. He merely thinks that was the plan because that is what happened. All other assumptions are just that -- assumptions.

You can believe what Littlefinger says all you want, but do so at your own risk. Ned believed him; so did Catelyn. Believing is not proof of anything.

On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 8:25 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

Therefore there's only two possible options here, Joffrey died from being poisoned by the wine,or he really did mundanely and ironically choke on the pigeon pie, a perfectly fine, in no way poisoned, good pigeon pie that just happened to get stuck in his throat, blocking his air passages and killing him that way. Tyrion being the target and his pie being poisoned is not one of these options. And George R Martin, does make this quite clear in the text of ASOS.

As I've proven through text, facts, physiology and logistics: the poison could not have possibly been in the wine. Therefore, they only option is the pie, which means it was meant for Tyrion, not Joffrey.

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On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 0:33 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

No, you hijacked the thread. It's very obvious to everyone else that you did it. 

Hardly. It directly answers the OP, unlike your discussion about what Tywin thought of Tyrion.

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On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 10:57 AM, RhaegoTheUnborn said:

If you say so. I don't think that's much of a point, if any, when it doesn't very much differentiate that specific "point". And I still don't believe things such as speech durations would matter any, seeing as the text doesn't actually mention how long someone may have been speaking for.

"He does have power here, my lord. And fire cleanses."

versus

"My lord, we should return to our places, Lord Buckler wants to toast us."

My uncle hasn't eat his pigeon pie. It's ill luck not to eat the pie. See it's good. Dry though. Needs washing down. I want to see, kof, see you ride that, kof kof, pig, Uncle. I want..."

And this doesn't even include all the action in between these statements -- grabbing pie, eating pie (twice), coughing, drinking.

Sorry, but there is no way on earth you can possibly argue that these two sequences are even close in duration. Can you stretch Mel's sentence out to seven seconds? Only if she's the world's slowest talker or if you drop a huge pregnant pause between her sentences -- both of which would be still more made-up facts. Then if we imagine that the wedding feast is a coke-fueled bacchanal, we can maybe get it down to 20 seconds, which still leaves us a good three-times slower.

Facts are facts: Cressen succumbs in a fraction of the time that Joffrey does, despite Cressen consuming far less of less-potent wine. It simply cannot be.

 

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On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 6:35 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Pretty much instead of having Tyrion marry Sansa after finding about the Tyrells’ plans to marry Sansa to Willas, he has Tommen marry Sansa. Either way, they lock up the Key to the North.

The key to hold the north was not only wed Sansa , but to have her with child as soon as possible .

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On 12/21/2017 at 5:21 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Absolutely. I always wonder what the relationship would be like if Tyrion had not married Tysha or been so into the whores. Is being height challenged enough by itself for Tywin to treat Tyrion as he does? If Joanna had survived the birth? 

If Lancel had been healthy enough to consummate, would Tywin have actually had him marry Sansa? Or is Tyrion correct?

I tend to believe Tyrion is correct, but I think it is an interesting question. Does Tywin actually want to reward Tyrion, or does he just want a Lannister to marry Sansa. 

 

I agree with the reasons that have been given in this thread about why it had to be Tyrion.  Yes, one of the issues with Tommen is that they would have to wait a long time to consummate and much and more could happen in the meantime.  Also, yes the fact that he is Joffrey's heir makes him too valuable.  As for other Lannisters, well, although they may be fairer to look upon, yes Lancel is too injured at that time and also young, like are the other possibilities and no-one could be certain how they would turn out.  With Tyrion, Tywin knew that he is not terribly easy to manipulate politically and he enjoys making political decisions so I don't reckon he thought him easy to manipulate.  Of course, this implies overlooking the fact that women are Tyrion's weakness and should he fall in love with Sansa she could have the upper hand on him very easily but at least he was a "tested" candidate in terms of decision making acumen and Tywin probably thought that he may just be happy continuing with his whores or did not give a thought to the possibility of Tyrion seriously falling for her and hence becoming vulnerable to her every wish.   Still the situation was urgent, so someone had to be available immediately, not too sick to consummate or too young etc.  In addition, Tyrion is a direct child of Casterly Rock whereas the cousins are further down in the lineage line so that would give Sansa's son a better standing genealogically speaking, so I guess once they got Winterfell it would be harder for say the northern Lords to claim that she had marry way beneath her or something (although granted, this may not be too relevant).  Still, despite having little love for Tyrion, house pride if nothing else would indicate that he wants him to marry high up in society.  Otherwise, surely Tywin's various offers re Tyrion would have been accepted by some minor noble house.  At this point it seems as if Jaime is unlikely to ever accept being Lord of the Rock himself and c'mon, surely somebody like Sybel Westerling would not have minded a dwarf with the right family name and wealth for one of his daughters.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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Tommen had better prospects.  The Starks are damaged goods.  The father admitted to treason and got a public execution.  Tyrion the Imp is fair match for Sansa in Tywin's opinion.

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21 minutes ago, Thomas Crown said:

Tommen had better prospects.  The Starks are damaged goods.  The father admitted to treason and got a public execution.  Tyrion the Imp is fair match for Sansa in Tywin's opinion.

Which would involve forcing a 12 to 13-year old to have sex. 

Edited by Angel Eyes

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There's no reason to marry Tommen to Sansa at all. Tywin could achieve the same result of securing the northern claim via a lesser Lannister such as Tyrion or Lancel. If for some reason it did happen, the marriage would be annulled on Joffrey's death anyways because it couldn't have been consummated, Tommen marries Margaery to keep the Tyrell alliance and Sansa still ends up being married to some lesser Lannister.

Edited by Lord Lannister

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On 12/26/2017 at 4:39 PM, John Suburbs said:

Hardly. It directly answers the OP, unlike your discussion about what Tywin thought of Tyrion.

The initial post wasn't the hijacking and you most certainly highjacked the thread. It's as easy to as breathing to tell people to DM/PM you about your theory.

And I actually had to add this after re-reading some of the thread. You basically confirm you've been hijacking threads for years. Can't even make that up:

Quote

And if this is Preston's theory then I must be unwittingly psychic, since for at least the past five years I have been trying to explain this to anyone who has an open mind and the common sense to base theories on facts rather than invent their own facts to support their preferred theory.

 

Edited by Universal Sword Donor

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On 1/28/2018 at 3:15 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Which would involve forcing a 12 to 13-year old to have sex. 

While it might be distasteful for modern readers, it was fairly common practice in medieval times as well as in book.

  • Aerys and Rhaella were about the same age when Rhaegar was born at Summerhall.
  • Maegor was 12-13 when he was married to his first wife
  • Wylla was 14 when betrothed to whichever awful Frey
  • Lady Dustin lost her maidenhood to Brandon Stark

I am sure there are others but those are just ones I remember off the top of my head.

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On Sunday, January 28, 2018 at 9:20 PM, Lord Lannister said:

There's no reason to marry Tommen to Sansa at all. Tywin could achieve the same result of securing the northern claim via a lesser Lannister such as Tyrion or Lancel. If for some reason it did happen, the marriage would be annulled on Joffrey's death anyways because it couldn't have been consummated, Tommen marries Margaery to keep the Tyrell alliance and Sansa still ends up being married to some lesser Lannister.

Why would Joffrey die?

If you are going to kill Joff you do not marry his heir to a Stark.

Even if the crackpot Tyrion was the target changes if Sansa is not his wife, she is not sat next to him and events change.

It's why I find these posts pointless, take an event change 1 detail and ignore the butterfly effect of any changes

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The ironic thing about Tywin both wanting to acquire Winterfell and not wanting Tyrion to inherit the Rock is that he could have accomplished both by marrying Sansa himself and having a son with her. All he would have to do after that is find a way to get rid of Tyrion, which probably wouldn't be too hard. However, Tywin, like his daughter, wouldn't have wanted any children who weren't 100% Lannister (which is what he had by marrying his cousin, Joanna), so he would not have considered that. 

Tyrion, unlike Tommen, was old enough to consummate a marriage, so a Stark-Lannister heir could be secured much sooner than if Sansa married Tommem. If Tywin truly did want to find Tyrion a wife, it was also one way he could do so without the match being rejected; Sansa was their hostage, giving her no choice in the matter. 

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7 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The initial post wasn't the hijacking and you most certainly highjacked the thread. It's as easy to as breathing to tell people to DM/PM you about your theory.

And I actually had to add this after re-reading some of the thread. You basically confirm you've been hijacking threads for years. Can't even make that up:

 

Sorry, but no. Not by any stretch of the imagination. What would happen if Tommen married Sansa is that the plot would have been to kill him instead of Tyrion. It is a direct answer to the OP's question, unlike your ramblings about Tywin's feelings toward Tyrion, which have nothing at all to do with the OP.

And yes, I have been discussing this for years, but not hijacking. People post all the time trying to square the myriad circles that arise from the basic misunderstanding of the plot and the plotter's intentions. Nothing adds up with the wine, not the physical facts of the two poisonings, the logistical impossibilities of the plan, the motivations of the plotters, the actions of all the other supposed plotters... Everything fits perfectly with Tyrion and the pie. That's just the simple fact my friend.

People usually do dm/pm me on this, because frankly they are too afraid of all the hostile bullying that wine-believers resort to when the facts disprove their contentions.

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3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but no. Not by any stretch of the imagination. What would happen if Tommen married Sansa is that the plot would have been to kill him instead of Tyrion. It is a direct answer to the OP's question, unlike your ramblings about Tywin's feelings toward Tyrion, which have nothing at all to do with the OP.

And yes, I have been discussing this for years, but not hijacking. People post all the time trying to square the myriad circles that arise from the basic misunderstanding of the plot and the plotter's intentions. Nothing adds up with the wine, not the physical facts of the two poisonings, the logistical impossibilities of the plan, the motivations of the plotters, the actions of all the other supposed plotters... Everything fits perfectly with Tyrion and the pie. That's just the simple fact my friend.

People usually do dm/pm me on this, because frankly they are too afraid of all the hostile bullying that wine-believers resort to when the facts disprove their contentions.

You've gone of for three different pages about how you're not hijacking the thread, but let's skip past that.

Where did I ramble, let alone about Tywin's feelings or even mention the two characters?

And your middle paragraph is, again, hijacking the thread, to the surprise of no one in particular.

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On 1/28/2018 at 9:15 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Which would involve forcing a 12 to 13-year old to have sex. 

In fairness that would have been the case whoever she had married.  Same goes for the Tyrells and Wylas is not being perceived as a monster. Bearing in mind that the typical age for a noble man/woman to marry in medieval Europe was 14, okay she is a little bit younger but not by much.  If she hadn't been married off to Tyrion she would have been to someone else.  That was politically unavoidable in the context of the game they are all playing.  I feel that in order to really enjoy this series we must leave our 21 century morality aside a bit and try to immerse ourselves in the world George has created and what was customary in that world.  Okay, yes, Tyrion objected somewhat, as Dany and say the Braavosi object to slavery but we cannot understand the characters actions and motivations if we filter them with our own present times moral codes.  Besides, I really don't think that Tywin gave a damn lol

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When reviewing who poisoned who and with what, it's important to keep Occam's Razor in mind. Poison is itself a tool of convenience- you use it because it's easy and has little evidence.

So do we use mental gymnastics to turn one twist (Joff was poisoned by LF) into another wholly more complicated twist? No. 

 

On topic for the OP, I would expect Sansa would have treated Tommen well and he would do the same to her. Judging by Robert Arryn, Sansa seems to be decent with children. And we learn from later chapters that Tommen is fairly kind-hearted. 

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My opinion take or leave it.

Sansa was set aside so that Joff could marry Marg.

LF brokered the deal betwixt Lannister & Tyrell. Sansa was happy about being set aside.

Sansa was married off to Tyrion because Sansa told Dontos, LF’s stooge, that the old lady had intentions of whisking Sansa of to Highgarden.

Dontos told LF. LF told Lannister. Lannister decided that Sansa would marry Tyrion.

Did Sansa’s marriage take place before or after Lannister gave Roose fake Arya? I dunna remember.

The reason I ask is because if Joff & Tywin had not died Tywin could pull the rug out from under Bolton ---  it was Tywin who bestowed the Warden of the North upon Roose through the Kings decree.

If Tywin, wanted to renege on his deal with Bolton Sansa is the oldest of the Stark girls. She out ranks Arya. Not only did Tywin want Tyrion to get a baby in the belly, Roose also wanted Ramsey to get a baby in the belly.

Sounds a bit sexist. But hey, it wasn’t that long ago females were the property/chattel of their fathers to be bestowed upon the husbands and marital rape couldn’t be prosecuted.

Yes, Joff was (boy) King. Tywin was the force and power behind the throne. I’m thinking that back in the day Aerys had Payne’s tongue cut out for making a remark that Tywin ruled the kingdom. Tywin, the Hand of the King (Joff), went so far as to say that Joff needed to be taught a lesson because Joff got up in Tywin’s grill.

To the Lannister's Sansa is a pawn, or is that a ward or hostage to be used to gain what Lannister deems necessary.

As been stated in this thread --- Tommen, considering his age is not going to beget a child with Sansa any time soon. Tyrion, a man grown can or not depending on whether or not he shoots blanks. In my opinion it is clearly stated that although he desires her, Tyrion is not interested in forcing himself upon Sansa.

I’ll carry this one step further, what did LF say to Sansa, his pretend daughter Alayne:

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II      Her eyes widened. "He is not Lady Waynwood's heir. He's Robert's heir. If Robert were to die . . ."      Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. <snip> . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?"/

Is LF spinning the young 13 year old wife of Tyrion Lannister, a tale?  As it stands both Sansa & Tyrion are wanted for the death of King Joff.  I dunna know about you but if someone exposed my betrothed to be someone other than who they claimed themselves to be at my wedding (as mentioned in the quote above) I think my people might cause a ruckus.

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4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You've gone of for three different pages about how you're not hijacking the thread, but let's skip past that.

Where did I ramble, let alone about Tywin's feelings or even mention the two characters?

And your middle paragraph is, again, hijacking the thread, to the surprise of no one in particular.

Not you, then. Sorry, I thought you were part of the earlier conversation on that subject.

My comments directly address the OP. You're the one who is continuing this thought on hijacking, which is, in fact, hijacking the thread.

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