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Angel Eyes

What if Tywin had Tommen marry Sansa?

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On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 0:28 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

The pie is causing him to cough. I'm not disputing that. He can't swallow it. His throat is beginning to tighten because he drank the Strangler. 

What, specifically, am I disregarding here?

What rules am I not applying?

I don't see how you think you are turning this into support for the poison being in the pie.

Your rules, as you've stated above, dictate that the strangler can only dissolve in wine because Cressen specifically says "Dissolved in wine, ..." When I try to point out that this is by no means definitive because Cressen is only repeating what he has learned in books, not what he has observed himself, and that it is completely unheard of in the real world for a crystalline structure to be so weak as to dissolve instantly in wine but would not be affected at all in hot, moist pie filling, you blithely respond with, "well, too bad the text doesn't say anything about dissolving in food."

And yet, when I show definitive text from the victim himself as he is choking that he says it is the pie that is causing his problem, not the wine, you now switch gears and try to claim that Joffrey's words don't matter because he doesn't understand what's happening in his own body.

So you say Joffrey's problem is not the pie, but actually his throat. So I'll respond as you do and simply brush this off with, too bad he doesn't say anything about his throat or his wine. The victim himself is telling you why he is choking, and his clear, indisputable words are "It's the pie."

I'm sure your don't realize this but you've caught yourself in the same trap that every other wine-theorist does. Since there are no actual facts to support your claim, you create an extremely implausible scenario in which Westeros appears to function as the real world in every way but in reality is a completely alternate universe where the basic laws of physics and chemistry don't apply. Then, since this is a fictional work and it has magic in it, you challenge others to prove what you're saying is not true, which of course is impossible because magic can make anything happen.

So, that's fine if you want to believe this. But what this does is relegate the wine theory to the same status as every other crazy, crackpot idea that shows up on these boards -- Ned is Dario, Lyanna is alive and well and whoring in Myr, Melisandre is choking Joffrey through her fires on Dragonstone... None of these theories have any facts to support them, the snippets of text that people construe as proof require wholesale suspension of belief, and in the end magic can explain it all away.

Welcome to crackpot land.

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21 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If you can’t see the link, try a different browser because it literally shows up in your post. Can’t believe you call GRRM a liar.  Maybe Ran can show you the link

Sorry, I see everybody links but yours. This is all I see:

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 11:14 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

It’s Johns reality and we’re just living in it guys. Enjoy the ride

John must not consider himself a careful reader

But here is the link and the text:

Quote

Rolling Stone, April 14, 2014

Martin: In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

Tell me true, did you carefully read the part about "I make no promises because I have two more books to right and may have more surprises to reveal"?

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7 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, I see everybody links but yours. This is all I see:

But here is the link and the text:

Tell me true, did you carefully read the part about "I make no promises because I have two more books to right and may have more surprises to reveal"?

Yes I did. May means possibly. As it stands, he does not consider you a careful reader and that is unshocking given the pushback you've gotten about this pet theory and willingness to hijack threads with it.

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4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes I did. May means possibly. As it stands, he does not consider you a careful reader and that is unshocking given the pushback you've gotten about this pet theory and willingness to hijack threads with it.

Would indicates the consequence of an imagined event or situation. So Martin considers you gullible enough to believe a completely imaginary explanation that in no way conforms to the facts he has put on the page, and that is unshocking considering the way he crafted the story to produce that exact result in people he sarcastically calls "careful readers."

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Would indicates the consequence of an imagined event or situation. So Martin considers you gullible enough to believe a completely imaginary explanation that in no way conforms to the facts he has put on the page, and that is unshocking considering the way he crafted the story to produce that exact result in people he sarcastically calls "careful readers."

Man you are a piece of work. He sarcastically gave entire interviews to several publications and only told you the truth. That’s heady shit man 

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16 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Man you are a piece of work. He sarcastically gave entire interviews to several publications and only told you the truth. That’s heady shit man 

You will learn the truth as well, my friend, in time. You will all learn the truth, bwahahahah...:rofl:

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On 2/7/2018 at 7:01 PM, John Suburbs said:

Would indicates the consequence of an imagined event or situation. So Martin considers you gullible enough to believe a completely imaginary explanation that in no way conforms to the facts he has put on the page, and that is unshocking considering the way he crafted the story to produce that exact result in people he sarcastically calls "careful readers."

Do you believe this entire interview is basically a troll job by Martin? 

After the quote you post he then goes on to talk about the motivation to kill Joffrey. Motivation you call "nonsense". We know he is talking book Joff because he says, "In the books..." and that Joff was 13 years old.

Quote

Martin: In the books — and I make no promises, because I have two more books to write, and I may have more surprises to reveal — the conclusion that the careful reader draws is that Joffrey was killed by the Queen of Thorns, using poison from Sansa’s hair net, so that if anyone actually did think it was poison, then Sansa would be blamed for it. Sansa had certainly good reason for it.

The reason I bring this up is because I think that’s an interesting question of redemption. That’s more like killing Hitler. Does the Queen of Thorns need redemption? Did the Queen of Thorns kill Hitler, or did she murder a 13-year-old boy? Or both? She certainly had good reasons to remove Joffrey. Everything she’d heard about him, he was wildly unstable, and he was about to marry her beloved granddaughter. The Queen of Thorns had studied Joffrey well enough that she knew that at some point he would get bored with Margaery, and Margaery would be maltreated, the same way that Sansa had been. Whereas if she removed him then her granddaughter might still get the crown but without all of the danger. So is that a case where the end justifies the means? I don’t know. That’s what I want the reader or viewer to wrestle with, and to debate. 

Do you honestly believe George is deliberately misleading us here? 

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4 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Do you believe this entire interview is basically a troll job by Martin? 

After the quote you post he then goes on to talk about the motivation to kill Joffrey. Motivation you call "nonsense". We know he is talking book Joff because he says, "In the books..." and that Joff was 13 years old.

Do you honestly believe George is deliberately misleading us here? 

It's like a case study to explain how a character like Jon Connington can delude himself into believing his feigned boy is the son of his silver prince despite evidence to the contrary. And the Aegon Blackfyre theory is much weaker than Olenna and Petyr conspired to poison Joffrey by using Sansa and Dontos as pawns, which is near canon. But I say, shine on @John Suburbs, shine on. 

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5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Do you believe this entire interview is basically a troll job by Martin? 

After the quote you post he then goes on to talk about the motivation to kill Joffrey. Motivation you call "nonsense". We know he is talking book Joff because he says, "In the books..." and that Joff was 13 years old.

Do you honestly believe George is deliberately misleading us here? 

He "makes no promises." So, yes, you should take everything he says here with a grain of salt, especially since the explanation he is proposing directly contradicts virtually everything he himself has written, plus all of the known science and the motivations and objectives of the principal plotters.

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5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It's like a case study to explain how a character like Jon Connington can delude himself into believing his feigned boy is the son of his silver prince despite evidence to the contrary. And the Aegon Blackfyre theory is much weaker than Olenna and Petyr conspired to poison Joffrey by using Sansa and Dontos as pawns, which is near canon. But I say, shine on @John Suburbs, shine on. 

Oh, I'm shining, brother, especially since Martin tends to make his reveals roughly three novels after the fact. When Winds comes out, look for me to be positively radiant. :thumbsup:

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I had it with this!!!  I have engaged in this thread with people who have meaningfully engaged with me but if anyone wants to discuss the Purple Weedding in great detail for good or ill, it should be in a thread dedicated to that!!!  Now, like most humans who are  non perfect, I digress at times.  Still, one thing is, say getting carried away and going on about, say, Margaery a bit or something, in this context, and another to turn the thread into a Purple Wedding, who's done it!  No disrespect to anyone but extensive essays on purple wedding belong in a purple wedding thread!  

I am the first person to say I have offended and gotten carried on by either favourite topics or characters and I am no mod lol but I do refuse to see any more pie -v- wine here since this is supposed to be about the wisdom or lack of of a specific political marriage, which yes everything is interlinked.  If the thoughts are about why Sansa/Tommen, say would be better off or worse off due to Purple Wedding I accept.  The logistics of the poisoning are for the purpose of this thread pretty much irrelevant.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 4:47 PM, Morgana Lannister said:

I had it with this!!!  I have engaged in this thread with people who have meaningfully engaged with me but if anyone wants to discuss the Purple Weedding in great detail for good or ill, it should be in a thread dedicated to that!!!  Now, like most humans who are  non perfect, I digress at times.  Still, one thing is, say getting carried away and going on about, say, Margaery a bit or something, in this context, and another to turn the thread into a Purple Wedding, who's done it!  No disrespect to anyone but extensive essays on purple wedding belong in a purple wedding thread!  

I am the first person to say I have offended and gotten carried on by either favourite topics or characters and I am no mod lol but I do refuse to see any more pie -v- wine here since this is supposed to be about the wisdom or lack of of a specific political marriage, which yes everything is interlinked.  If the thoughts are about why Sansa/Tommen, say would be better off or worse off due to Purple Wedding I accept.  The logistics of the poisoning are for the purpose of this thread pretty much irrelevant.

Sorry that people keep filling up this thread with non-facts and non-logic, but all I did was answer the OP's question: What if Tywin had Sansa Marry Tommen? Answer: Tommen would have been the target at the Purple Wedding, not Tyrion.

You have an Ignore Button for these types of situations.

 

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3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry that people keep filling up this thread with non-facts and non-logic, but all I did was answer the OP's question: What if Tywin had Sansa Marry Tommen? Answer: Tommen would have been the target at the Purple Wedding, not Tyrion.

You have an Ignore Button for these types of situations.

 

Indeed, and you would get more credit for posting thoughts in threads related to them!  Like, how about " a purple wedding thread" lol; sorry to be sarcastic but it has come to this!

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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4 minutes ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Indeed, and you would get more credit for posting thoughts in threads related to them!  Like, how about " a purple wedding thread" lol; sorry to be sarcastic but it has come to this!

Whereas this is possible, okay what if Twyin had married her to Tommen???? Where does your theory feature exactly? are we still on the pie, or have we moved on?

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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On 1/28/2018 at 2:15 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Which would involve forcing a 12 to 13-year old to have sex. 

I doubt that would be much of a consideration for Tywin.  He doesn't to concern himself with the personal welfare of those he manipulates that aren't Lannisters, and even some that are.

Also, while 12/13 is young, it is hardly unprecedented, either in Westeros or in the real Middle Ages.  In real life, Margaret Beaufort is a particularly (in)famous example.  She was married at 12,and gave birth at 13 to Henry Tudor, whose coronation as Henry VII ended the Wars of the Roses.  Admittedly, she was a bit of an outlier in that respect, but so is Sansa.

58 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry that people keep filling up this thread with non-facts and non-logic, but all I did was answer the OP's question: What if Tywin had Sansa Marry Tommen? Answer: Tommen would have been the target at the Purple Wedding, not Tyrion.

You have an Ignore Button for these types of situations.

 

Can you please explain to me why Tommen would be a target.  I see no reason for either Littlefinger or the Tyrells to want him dead.  Any claim to the North through Sansa is going to be purely theoretical so long as sansa is under the Lannisters' thumb.  Plus, the North is at the other end of Westeros from the Reach, so I can't imagine the Tyrells would care much, anyway, certainly not enough to kill the heir to the crown.

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On 2/8/2018 at 2:57 PM, John Suburbs said:

You will learn the truth as well, my friend, in time. You will all learn the truth, bwahahahah...:rofl:

The inane ramblings of a person so far removed from cognitive functionality that he uses emojis. What has this board come to

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40 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I doubt that would be much of a consideration for Tywin.  He doesn't to concern himself with the personal welfare of those he manipulates that aren't Lannisters, and even some that are.

Also, while 12/13 is young, it is hardly unprecedented, either in Westeros or in the real Middle Ages.  In real life, Margaret Beaufort is a particularly (in)famous example.  She was married at 12,and gave birth at 13 to Henry Tudor, whose coronation as Henry VII ended the Wars of the Roses.  Admittedly, she was a bit of an outlier in that respect, but so is Sansa.

Can you please explain to me why Tommen would be a target.  I see no reason for either Littlefinger or the Tyrells to want him dead.  Any claim to the North through Sansa is going to be purely theoretical so long as sansa is under the Lannisters' thumb.  Plus, the North is at the other end of Westeros from the Reach, so I can't imagine the Tyrells would care much, anyway, certainly not enough to kill the heir to the crown.

In the case of Margaret Beaufort, said birth was extremely problematic and left her unable to have more children. It’s a very big gamble; consider if Tyrion did get Sansa pregnant and the child was a girl, or better yet, a dwarf, and Sansa was unable to carry another child to term.

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10 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

In the case of Margaret Beaufort, said birth was extremely problematic and left her unable to have more children. It’s a very big gamble; consider if Tyrion did get Sansa pregnant and the child was a girl, or better yet, a dwarf, and Sansa was unable to carry another child to term.

Yes,I knew she had problems with the birth.  Didn't mention because of time and space.  I doubt Tywin would have cared about that either.  Sansa's marriage was essentially a blocking move.  If she has a dwarf, or a girl, that's no real loss to Tywin.  Tywin also suggested that, except for the consummation, Tyrion could wait and have children later, when she was more mature. 

Any claim she might make to the North is essentially a bonus.  Right now, he is trying to get her off the market so that nobody else can use her for their own purposes.

Edited by Nevets

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21 hours ago, Morgana Lannister said:

Whereas this is possible, okay what if Twyin had married her to Tommen???? Where does your theory feature exactly? are we still on the pie, or have we moved on?

As I said, my comments speak directly to the OP's question because if Tywin had married Sansa to Tommen instead of Tyrion then Tommen would have been the target for the poison at the Purple Wedding because it is through Tommen that Tywin would gain control over the north and displace the Tyrells as the most powerful family in the realm. Look at history: Highgarden has been the hegemon in the region for centuries due to the inter-marriages between the Tyrells/Gardners, the Hightowers and the Redwynes. They are all one, big extended family and this is the reason Highgarden is able to field the largest army compared to any other single realm. Over the past 20 years, however, Tywin has used conquest and marriage to expand Lannister control past just the westerlands to include the stormlands, the crownlands, and the riverlands, not to mention his grandson on the Iron Throne. Add the north to that mix, and Casterly Rock will have the ability to field an army that dwarfs anything Highgarden could produce, and conflict between the two houses is inevitable due to the large, ill-defined border they share. And when you go up against Tywin Lannister, he doesn't just march his army into the field for a nobly fought battle in which the loser just bends the knee and submits. He burns your lands to the ground, sacks your cities, murders your smallfolk by the thousands, razes your castles to the ground and exterminates your house for all time. These are all facts clearly and definitively spelled out in the text.

So if anyone has hijacked this thread, it is those who toss unsupported theories out of their heads that have no backing in text, no backing in fact and run completely counter to the motivations and objectives of the principal plotters.

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20 hours ago, Nevets said:

Can you please explain to me why Tommen would be a target.  I see no reason for either Littlefinger or the Tyrells to want him dead.  Any claim to the North through Sansa is going to be purely theoretical so long as sansa is under the Lannisters' thumb.  Plus, the North is at the other end of Westeros from the Reach, so I can't imagine the Tyrells would care much, anyway, certainly not enough to kill the heir to the crown.

Tywin will control the north through Tyrion first, then his son, who will be the undisputed Lord of Winterfell. This is how it is done. It is how the Tyrells, and the Gardners before them, maintain their status as the single most powerful house in the region -- through their extensive inter-marriages with the Redwynes and Hightowers.

With first his son, then his grandson, seated at Winterfell, Tywin will control, through marriage alliances -- a contiguous block that connects the north, the riverlands, the westerlands, the crownlands and the stormlands -- easily more than half the realm. House Lannister will be the most powerful house in the realm, able to field armies that dwarf any other house, including the Tyrells.

As for Littlefinger, he needs to have Sansa free of any marriage entanglements, since, if she is still married, she is of no use to anyone. So while his motivation for killing Tyrion remains strong, he still needs to murder Tommen, and he is smart enough to realize that the Tyrells do too.

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