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The Last Jedi, not the last spoiler thread


mormont

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Just to be clear to Ferrum and others - Reys parentage was set up as one of the big mysteries. I didn't think otherwise. And Rey finding out who they are and why they left her is obviously a massive part of her arc and character. 

What I contend is that this does not require that they be particularly important or anyone we have met before for that to be a satisfying arc. It is what star wars has taught us, but it isn't needed for anything else. It needs to be impactful to Rey. And i contend that it was. 

As to Rey being special and why - we have the answer to this, which is that the force requires balance. The movie specifically and explicitly answers this. Snoke thought it would be Luke, which is why he wanted to kill him, but Luke fucked off. The force abhors imbalance in the same way nature abhors a vacuum. Rey is a natural result. 

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1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

 

As to Rey being special and why - we have the answer to this, which is that the force requires balance. The movie specifically and explicitly answers this. Snoke thought it would be Luke, which is why he wanted to kill him, but Luke fucked off. The force abhors imbalance in the same way nature abhors a vacuum. Rey is a natural result. 

Yep. Which is why Anakin Skywalker actually largely succeeded in his role as the "Chosen One", bringing balance to the force. 

He culled thousands of excess light side users, helping the numbers get close to even. 

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5 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I want to address this point specifically, because its factually wrong. He did not give R2D2 a map. It's clearly sated that R2D2 has maps from the old imperial archives that give context to the map that BB8 has. In fact, the whole setup for Ep 7 is them trying for along time to find the map, and when they do the first order loses its shit to try and get it.

Edit: Also, Luke does not wake up R2, BB8 does, this has been established in the dvd commentary and in multiple interviews.

If they are looking for a map leading to Luke, then he must have given someone the right information in the first place. BB8 acquires the necessary information from Max’s character on Jakku. At the end of the day, it still means that Luke was meant to be found. It doesn’t explain why he is so reluctant to do anything in LJ.

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39 minutes ago, House Balstroko said:

If they are looking for a map leading to Luke, then he must have given someone the right information in the first place. BB8 acquires the necessary information from Max’s character on Jakku. At the end of the day, it still means that Luke was meant to be found. It doesn’t explain why he is so reluctant to do anything in LJ.

Well, no, not necessarily. I believe the idea was the old man on Jakku found a map to the first jedi temple, and that's were Luke went.

Interestingly I was just reading an article were Hamil says he disliked that the character ran away but he said he liked how TLJ ended. (Then he tells people not to get mad, too late Mark, too late)

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That concept of "balance" as you described it would never work in our word though. In our world, we have another word for such "culling": genocide. I imagine that if the plants and animals of the Terra system were sentient and had a say in the matter, they'd argue for much of the human race to be "culled" in the name of planetary "balance" and preserving their own lives. If they were merciful they'd decide themselves who to cull, if not, they'd leave it up to us to decide amongst ourselves who deserves to be "culled".

And there things get realllly ugly. One side blames the other for beginning the process of destroying the climate/planet and insists it take the lion's share of action/blame, while the other can say "we didn't have the benefit of hindsight, like you now do, and you have far greater numbers as well as aspiring to a lifestyle like our own. How can we trust you when you say you'll not take up the evil planet-killing lifestyle we left for our past sins. Just b/c you feel you deserve it for historical reasons. You look at the damage we did with far fewer numbers, and you still insist in wanting ever-increasing levels of per-capita consumption, in the name of some twisted concept of "climate justice." And even if you still consume at lower per-capita numbers, again so many more of you, any "progress" will be moot.

The dying animals would look at both sides and say, "Who is more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows them?" As long as they continue to be slaughtered and go extinct, which side is "right" matters not one iota. 

 

That's the "First World" looking at the newly anointed "Second" and versa vice, while the "Third" doesn't give a crap. They're like the dying plants and animals, in many cases the closest to them in many ways. And we think we'll be able to escape the delayed wrath of either. A reckoning is coming, maybe sooner than we think.  If there was a planetary tribunal of the dying, maybe they wouldn't need to cull; just stand back and let the games begin. 

 

God, sorry for the morbid post. I hope no-one takes offense;  that belongs in the Environment thread. But it's why I'm a pessimist when it comes to that stuff. 

But wow, there's an idea for a story, m'Lady! Lucky we are that we can argue pet points about Eastern philosophy distilled through a fantasy prism, we are. 

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It is a contradiction Darth Richard though isn't it? I have to go see it again next week, but as far as I can remember here's the general arc.

Luke: Oh woe is me, I f'-d up big time. I wanna die. But Jedi can't commit suicide, so I'll just run away and hide at...hmmm...the first Jedi Temple. Where I can hide away and preserve the ancient Jedi Lore for whatever reason,  even though I think the Jedi should end. 

Luke on the way to the temple (maybe?) : And I'll just plant this lightsaber with my old friend Maz, and it's programmed so that if a certain person touches it she;ll see a vision. But no, I guess I never did that at all, or it doesn't matter. *scratches head*

Rey shows up: Oh wow, I found you. I need a teacher and BTW save the galaxy. 

Luke: Go away, and leave me to my self-pity trip. But if you insist, help me milk the cows. 

Rey: you WILL train me. 

Luke: okay, I'll tell you how the Jedi are losers, and then get the heck off my lawn. 

Rey: this is all nice so far, but you really are pathetic. Get your s** together Luke, this is getting real fast. 

(Rey goes to a cave where she sees herself in  a hall of mirrors and then a big Hogwarts Mirror blur. Sorry but did anyone think of Harry looking in Dumbledore's forbidden Mirror in that scene, I forget the name of it?)  

Luke and Rey have a leeeetle argument. They each tell the other to F off. 

Luke: -----*

(Yoda then appears in a vision, gives Luke a pep talk, dropping nuggets of wisdom, and then he immediately mysteriously does a 180 and decides to save the day. Well sorta. One minute he's afraid to die right away, the next he decides to do a jedi procedure he MAYBE knows will kill him. Oh, and he wants to say goodbye to Leia first. And Threepio can totes see him during it.) 

 

Luke: I'm gonna save the day by screwing with Ren's mind, tormenting  him with my virtuoso phsy-ops force projection disguise. In the hopes that he'll have mercy to his enemies. Or something. It'll work like a charm. And I'll go out like  a boss.

 

OK apologies. THAT was epic, a sequence for the ages. But the lead-up to it...It's a heckuva arc, not much to get from point A to point C, was it? 

 

EDIT: had free time today to post. Not so much the next few days. Cheers. 

 

FINAL EDIT: Just saw a link, "3 Buck Theater" on Youtube: "The Last Jedi" box-office numbers are down 42% from the Force Awakens. OUCH. 

of course it won't matter as Chinese reciepts are yet to come in. With Aisa in the mix now, the rest of the globe don't matter! 

Didn't Empire make less money than ANH too? What were the box-office figures then?

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8 hours ago, Rippounet said:

Is that so... :rolleyes:

Yes, it is.

Look, I know it's astounding to contemplate that people on the internet might perhaps be wrong. Even if you found them on page 1 of Google! But, well, they are. 

As noted, if a question can be removed entirely from the film without affecting it one iota, that question was not central to the film. 

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Of course the numbers are down. TFA was the first Star Wars movie in *thinks) a decade, and the first with some of the OG cast since 1983, not to mention, middle films of trilogies almost always are the worst performer box office wise. See Empire.

1 hour ago, Lady Of The Crossbow Inn said:

 

Luke on the way to the temple (maybe?) : And I'll just plant this lightsaber with my old friend Maz, and it's programmed so that if a certain person touches it she;ll see a vision. But no, I guess I never did that at all, or it doesn't matter. *scratches head*

 

I'm going to stop you right here, cause this is just wrong. Not only is it never even implied that Maz knows Luke, the idea that he programmed it to respond to a specific person is just completely wrong in how that scene plays out.

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9 hours ago, House Balstroko said:

Why for that matter, did Obi -Wan and Anakin not show up? Both are far more important to Luke than Yoda.

They're more important to the audience than Yoda, perhaps. But Luke spent possibly months training with Yoda on Dagobah, compared with a couple of days with Obi-wan and never really knowing his father at all.

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

Because the idea was that the FO wouldn't know they had survived/gone to that moon. They were using some stealth mode so they weren't showing on the scanners

No ship that small has a cloaking device! :P

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Didn't Ren's lightsaber start that fire during the fight? I remember his lightsaber going through the wall. Not sure if that red screen is some cheap sort of wallpaper.

 

The red screen was some sort of cover. Didn't it start coming down in the fight and there were viewports behind them?

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Oh and one more thing. Star Wars needs a new composer and soon. JW is pushing 90 and while he's still good, the fact remains that there has only been one new real motif introduced in these films, that of Rey's Theme at the end of TFA, we only heard it once briefly during a scene on the island. I don't know about you but that gave me the CHILLS at the end of TFA, it made Luke's re-introduction suitably epic and I was expecting to hear it more in TLJ.

 

It was a very retro soundtrack, very little that was new and interesting. TFA had a couple of good new themes in it, but TLJ didn't have anything particularly memorable in it. Very bland. Better than Rogue One though.

 

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Look, I know it's astounding to contemplate that people on the internet might perhaps be wrong. Even if you found them on page 1 of Google! But, well, they are. 

As noted, if a question can be removed entirely from the film without affecting it one iota, that question was not central to the film. 

 

I liked how they handled Rey's parental revelation in TLJ, if they stick with it. It takes away the "if you're a good person it has to be inherited" weirdness from the previous movies and it makes the message that anyone can achieve anything regardless of their starting position in life, which is a powerful (if very standard) message. It contradicts her parents running off in a starship, sure, but maybe there'll be some explanation for that.

Suggesting that it is not a prominent, primary plot point in TFA is simply incorrect, however. Rey mentions her parents very prominently at several points in the narrative and it is set up as an important motivational part of her character. Arguably the most important moment in her character development in the whole film is her standing in Maz Kanata's castle and Maz telling her "You know that they're not coming back". It was inarguably the main discussion point after the film coming out, ahead of what Luke had been up to and who Snoke was.

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7 minutes ago, Werthead said:

I liked how they handled Rey's parental revelation in TLJ, if they stick with it. It takes away the "if you're a good person it has to be inherited" weirdness from the previous movies and it makes the message that anyone can achieve anything regardless of their starting position in life, which is a powerful (if very standard) message. It contradicts her parents running off in a starship, sure, but maybe there'll be some explanation for that.

Suggesting that it is not a prominent, primary plot point in TFA is simply incorrect, however. Rey mentions her parents very prominently at several points in the narrative and it is set up as an important motivational part of her character. Arguably the most important moment in her character development in the whole film is her standing in Maz Kanata's castle and Maz telling her "You know that they're not coming back". It was inarguably the main discussion point after the film coming out, ahead of what Luke had been up to and who Snoke was.

Sure, but my point was that you could remove every such mention without it changing the film at all. 

The 'motivation' element is fair, because that's relevant to Rey's character, but it's irrelevant to the 'central mystery' point. Rey's motivation isn't lost with the reveal that her parents aren't anyone special to the narrative, because Rey never suspected they were anyone special to the narrative. That part still works just fine. 

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Only managed to  see the film for the first time last night. First thought: it was better than TFA, by quite some bit.

Second thought: I haven't read through the entirety of the previous thread and I've skimmed through this one, but one thing the film left me thinking about was the relationship between Kylo Ren and Rey. In TFA, I had a small thought the might go down the route of 'star-crossed lovers', but I was also left convinced by the way Rey's parentage was mentioned in TFA that she had to be a Skywalker somehow, so I thought they'd end up maybe going down the route of Rey and Finn, which was also hinted.

Then TLJ came along and put to bed (hopefully) any chance of Rey being a Skywalker, while turning up the tension between Ren and Rey a notch with their connection - that turned out not to be a plot of Snoke's - the hand touch, Ren's wish for her to join him and rule 'together' and Ren's eyes turning all puppy-dog anytime he sees Rey (I have to commend Adam Driver on this, as his performance as Kylo Ren has been terrific in both films).

Perhaps, though, it is Ben Solo's puppy-dog eyes we see and perhaps it is Ben Solo Rey could be in love with, rather than Kylo Ren.

Or perhaps only I picked up on this fantasy and you're all going to tell me I'm wrong!

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There was an awful lot of discussion after The Force Awakens about how Rey could be so proficient in the Force. Beating (an admittedly wounded) Ren, Jedi mind tricks, etc. Nothing in The Last Jedi seems to explain it, but discussion has died down it seems. She even achieves more levitating with the rocks than Luke ever did. The Force 'balancing itself' against Snoke I've seen mentioned, but then of course we have the kid at the end. So are we forced to conclude that being a Jedi is just ...... really easy? If you're born with the midichlorians, then great, reach out with your feelings and bobs your uncle, you're a Jedi.

Also I had a discussion way back, possibly in The Force Awakens thread, about how stupid the whole 'turning to the dark side' is. It's a huge failing of the entire saga for me that we still have no clue what this temptation looks like. Luke never once looked like turning in Return of the Jedi and it just makes the Emperor look stupid for thinking he would. Then of course, Lucas had several hundred million dollars and a truck load of good will to make three films about exactly this, and ballsed it up completely. But even now, we have Rey and Ren heading to see Snoke and we're supposed to wonder whether one or the other will turn one way or the other? Can anyone honestly say they can put themsleves in their shoes and understand why they would? What's so good about the dark side? What we really need is a scene where someone gets access to some seriously amped up abilities, but is noticeably dragged into the classic 'dark side' emotions (fear, anger, hatred), and so rejects this power. Then they need to lose quite badly, and be significantly weakened. If there's no sacrifice to rejecting the dark side, why does anyone turn? Why does anyone turn back, what's the difference? What's the point? Are Siths just Jedi's who are dicks? Shouldn't it be more complicated than that?

Regarding why Anakin and Obi Wan don't show up as Force ghosts; Anakin particularly, if he showed up it would have to be either Hayden Christensen or Sebastian Stan. Hayden is a reminder of the terrible prequels, and would intrude on the enjoyment for those of us who have removed the prequels from our head canon. Sebastian Stan would seem like a middle finger to the RotJ special edition. So whichever way you go, you're siding with someone when you may as well leave this trilogy as being compatable with either. Obi Wan would work, but I don't know what more he could have said to Luke so it would really just exist cos it'd be cool, not for any plot reasons.

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1 hour ago, DaveSumm said:

There was an awful lot of discussion after The Force Awakens about how Rey could be so proficient in the Force.

I think this makes sense, from a cultural point of view.

In episodes 1–6, the Force had two associated qualities: Heritability and discipline. 

Today, these qualities are culturally highly questionable. They belong to the virtues of the Dark Side. It makes perfect sense to excise them from the Star Wars religion. The idea that mastery of the Force should require hard work or (even worse) having chosen your parents wisely should be morally repelling to large part of current culture  – including the executives that finance movies, and the academics, critics, and journalists that write film reviews. 

We ought not desire a Star Wars ethics that requires monkish virtues such as discipline, control of your passions, hard work, contemplation, … these are the values of a bygone generation. Nor must we crave for a fictional universe in which it matters who your parents were. Each individual is a blank slate.

These decisions make complete sense to me. It seems to me a deliberate, virtuous, and culturally informed decision to have Rey just be perfect without heritage or learning. Because each of us is awesome, without heritage or learning.

The absence of explanation is a virtue, and we are probably turning to the dark side just by asking the question. Only the Sith deal in training. Only the Sith deal in heritage.

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12 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Just to be clear to Ferrum and others - Reys parentage was set up as one of the big mysteries. I didn't think otherwise. And Rey finding out who they are and why they left her is obviously a massive part of her arc and character. 

What I contend is that this does not require that they be particularly important or anyone we have met before for that to be a satisfying arc. It is what star wars has taught us, but it isn't needed for anything else. It needs to be impactful to Rey. And i contend that it was. 

As to Rey being special and why - we have the answer to this, which is that the force requires balance. The movie specifically and explicitly answers this. Snoke thought it would be Luke, which is why he wanted to kill him, but Luke fucked off. The force abhors imbalance in the same way nature abhors a vacuum. Rey is a natural result. 

Thanks. That's a good argument and I agree.

Truthfully, absent the scene at Maz's in TFA (and the strong implications thereof) I don't think I would have any issue with the way this was handled. 

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19 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

I think this makes sense, from a cultural point of view.

In episodes 1–6, the Force had two associated qualities: Heritability and discipline. 

Today, these qualities are culturally highly questionable. They belong to the virtues of the Dark Side. It makes perfect sense to excise them from the Star Wars religion. The idea that mastery of the Force should require hard work or (even worse) having chosen your parents wisely should be morally repelling to large part of current culture  – including the executives that finance movies, and the academics, critics, and journalists that write film reviews. 

We ought not desire a Star Wars ethics that requires monkish virtues such as discipline, control of your passions, hard work, contemplation, … these are the values of a bygone generation. Nor must we crave for a fictional universe in which it matters who your parents were. Each individual is a blank slate.

These decisions make complete sense to me. It seems to me a deliberate, virtuous, and culturally informed decision to have Rey just be perfect without heritage or learning. Because each of us is awesome, without heritage or learning.

The absence of explanation is a virtue, and we are probably turning to the dark side just by asking the question. Only the Sith deal in training. Only the Sith deal in heritage.

The sarcasm is strong with this one.

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24 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

I think this makes sense, from a cultural point of view.

In episodes 1–6, the Force had two associated qualities: Heritability and discipline. 

Today, these qualities are culturally highly questionable. They belong to the virtues of the Dark Side. It makes perfect sense to excise them from the Star Wars religion. The idea that mastery of the Force should require hard work or (even worse) having chosen your parents wisely should be morally repelling to large part of current culture  – including the executives that finance movies, and the academics, critics, and journalists that write film reviews. 

We ought not desire a Star Wars ethics that requires monkish virtues such as discipline, control of your passions, hard work, contemplation, … these are the values of a bygone generation. Nor must we crave for a fictional universe in which it matters who your parents were. Each individual is a blank slate.

These decisions make complete sense to me. It seems to me a deliberate, virtuous, and culturally informed decision to have Rey just be perfect without heritage or learning. Because each of us is awesome, without heritage or learning.

The absence of explanation is a virtue, and we are probably turning to the dark side just by asking the question. Only the Sith deal in training. Only the Sith deal in heritage.

Let's end the thread here because this is gonna be the best post. Might as well stop now.

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1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

The sarcasm is strong with this one.

I am utterly serious. What we’re seeing is exactly “Star Wars for a new generation.” The problematic moral baggage of the original trilogy has been deliberately abandoned. At the end of this movie, all white males are fascists, and all fascists are white males. And while the fascist were competent, cool, and scary in the original trilogy, now they are bumbling idiots. The Force has been released from its conservative value system: it is now an egalitarian system of equity and balance. The value system if perfectly post-modern: reason, individual motivation, consistency, or conviction no longer exists; individuals exist only by virtue of membership of factions, whose fault lines track race and exploitation. Narratives are disjointed and the story consists of a collage of tropes.

None of the creators behind new Star Wars this is stupid or lacks resources. What we are given is principled, deliberate, and competently executed.

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