The Last Jedi, not the last spoiler thread

[Corvo the Crow]

I can already see how this trilogy ends; Kylo Ren winning and Rey becoming Sith moments before she dies. Kylo goes on and have kids (without a wife cause, force yeah), trains a new generation of Siths but  he senses a great light in his most promising student and this student and a few others kill the sithy students  so cycle can begin again. Oh instead of going all destructive these students actually build a super weapon, this time the size of a solar system instead of a moon or planet sized one.

Enough material for the fourth trilogy, don't you think?

[divica]

9 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

I am utterly serious. What we’re seeing is exactly “Star Wars for a new generation.” The moral baggage of the original trilogy has been deliberately abandoned.

One of the things I don t understand is why bring the OT characters if you want to destroy the fandom they created? They aren t even important for these new movies... except to destroy all canon sw loved.

If they wanted to make something like this shitty movie why not do it in a diferent time era and we would all be happy? It seems Disney wanted to destroy the sw lore fans loved and rewrite a new lore over it... When they could simply create their new lore in a different time era!

[divica]

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I can already see how this trilogy ends; Kylo Ren winning and Rey becoming Sith moments before she dies. Kylo goes on and have kids (without a wife cause, force yeah), trains a new generation of Siths but  he senses a great light in his most promising student and this student and a few others kill the sithy students  so cycle can begin again. Oh instead of going all destructive these students actually build a super weapon, this time the size of a solar system instead of a moon or planet sized one.

Enough material for the fourth trilogy, don't you think?

Honnestly, I don t care about kylo or rey at this point. The movies have made them wanna be jedi/sith that don t need training to do anything or that have lots of training but are only as good as an untrained jedi. Without snoke and luke the trilogy lost its epicness! I think whatever happens now will be boring, repetitive and very not star wars!

[Happy Ent]

The old generation liked the original trilogy for many reasons that we today know are wrong: Jungian archetypes. Strong gender roles. White people. Conservative values: knights, princesses, swords, discipline, mentorship, sacrifice. A charming, sexual predator who shoots people and who female fans were mistaken in liking. A young hero who rebels against societal expectations. A Force that was heritable and required instruction. The possibility of failure.

The new movies surgically remove exactly these aspects.

[Iskaral Pust]

It’s absolutely correct that Star Wars has jumped to fit modern cultural sensibilities*.  And while I might cheer the end of the monarchist overtones, I’d share HE’s dismay that great abilities can now be acquired instantaneously and with no effort.  

The unanswered question from TFA that bothers me most is how did Rey, in the midst of a life or death battle with Ren, have some memory triggered by his mention of the force and was then immediately able to reach for it.  That still suggests some very early prior training.

*Try rewatching Han and Leia’s first kiss scene now.  The #MeToo movement would have had ESB boycotted.   

 

[Kalbear]

Anakin was as competent and powerful with the force as Rey shows without any training. 

Both came about because of imbalance. 

[RumHam]

7 hours ago, felice said:

They're more important to the audience than Yoda, perhaps. But Luke spent possibly months training with Yoda on Dagobah

Wait, how does that work? I thought it was only a few days before he leaves to save his friends. 

[Corvinus85]

20 minutes ago, Happy Ent said:

The old generation liked the original trilogy for many reasons that we today know are wrong: Jungian archetypes. Strong gender roles. White people. Conservative values: knights, princesses, swords, discipline, mentorship, sacrifice. A charming, sexual predator who shoots people and who female fans were mistaken in liking. A young hero who rebels against societal expectations. A Force that was heritable and required instruction. The possibility of failure.

The new movies surgically remove exactly these aspects.

I don't fully agree with your assessment. I agree that it looks that way in these new movies, but besides the movies, there are stories in other forms. Star Wars Rebels is a show for the new generations, too, the kids, especially, but there you still see the themes from the OT about duty, discipline, hard work, and where failure is often possible.

[Happy Ent]

21 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

I’d share HE’s dismay that great abilities can now be acquired instantaneously and with no effort.  

Did I express dismay? I tried to be perfectly descriptive and keep my own tastes out of it.

[Happy Ent]

18 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Anakin was as competent and powerful with the force as Rey shows without any training. 

Both came about because of imbalance. 

Just for the record: I deliberately avoided any claim that the old-Force could only be acquired through breeding and discipline. The equity/balance-aspect has alway been part of the Force; the new movies have surgically removed all the culturally questionable baggage. 

Edit: Ah, I see. I wrote “required instruction.” I should have written “could be improved by instruction.”

[Happy Ent]

42 minutes ago, divica said:

If they wanted to make something like this shitty movie why not do it in a diferent time era and we would all be happy? It seems Disney wanted to destroy the sw lore fans loved and rewrite a new lore over it... When they could simply create their new lore in a different time era!

Do you know nothing about postmodernism? The deconstruction is an extremely important part of the project. It’s not about alternatives. It’s about deconstruction.

[Rockroi]

Rey's parent's being two nobodies gets under people's skin because of two reasons:

1. The Belief that who our parents are is important; and 

2. That we want our guesses to matter; we want to - in effect - be part of the story by being able to say "I knew who Rey's parents were when I saw ..."  People who, confidently, predicted that Rey was a Kanobi or a Skywalker or a clone etc.  They want to be part of the story.  Well... 

Either Rey is an important character or she isn't.  And if being important can only be achieved by what characters you are related to in the story, then we have like 5 important character in the history of Star Wars.  And that's lame in a universe that spans millions of light years.  Rey is important because she's Rey and not because of who her parents are etc.  

Yes, I know, that people are upset that there is no answer behind the curtain.  But in a way ... there was.  Rey said- over and over again - that she was "Nobody/No one" from "Nowhere" and that was true in the context of her identity - her parents were these nobodies and she was in the middle of nowhere.  Yes, this charges up the "Hey what a coincidence..." but that has always been part of this universe.  

But the story is utilizing well-known tools here in the context of this Universe, namely that parentage is important - Luke and Leia are Vader's children; Kylo is his grandson; Han is Kylo's Father; etc - and using that against our expectations.  Because ultimately it does not matter who Rey's parents are and it should not.

Because Luke is a good person REGARDLESS of who his parent's were; Leia is a good character regardless of whether or not her Father was Bail Organa or Darth Vader. There was no mystery here not because we were not tantalized into discovering the answer, but because the answer was- always - unimportant.  

And this is true with Kylo.  The fact that Kylo is Vader's grandson does not miraculously mean he is this awesome bad ass.  In fact, he is conflicted.  That's either interesting or its not.  

The entire premise of this film is "Let the past die;" throw that old lightsaber over your shoulder; don't fight the big-baddie at the end of the movie.  This will not end the way you think it will end.  Its messing with people's expectations.  And people don't like that. 

-Oh, you thought it was important that Luke's X-Wing is in the water near the island?  Bet you thought he would train Rey in lifting it out of the water, huh?  Or that he would use that X-Wing to fly back and save the day?  NOPE! 

-Oh, you thought Snoke was important?  NOPE! 

-Oh, you thought when the Porg was jumping on the discarded light-saber and the other Porg was at the very front of the saber, that it would  ignite and kill him? Nope!

-Oh, you thought Luke would be upset over seeing his old light-saber? NOPE! 

-Oh, you thought Rey's parents mattered?  Nope!  

Nope, nope, nope, nope. 

In TFA we were treated to the relaunch of Star Wars and it looked and felt very similar to New Hope.  And people complained like you beat up a puppy.  This installment took advantage of that momentum and turned it around.  Your expectations were not met because they were unimportant.  I will say that I include myself in this group- I spent a lot of time dissecting who Rey's parents were (a Kanobi) and who Snoke was (a Luke Clone from his chopped off hand).  And I was wrong.  Oh well! 

The whole point of this movie was to re calibrate your expectations.  

The original Star Wars/New Hope was a campy Sci-Fi Fantasy movie.  ESB turned it into a Space Opera by fixating on the Father-son Dynamic.  They re-calibrated expectations. 

Same here.  

I thought it worked, but do not mistake me, the movie has problems (Canto Bite, nonsensical chance scene, the diminution of Snoke; pliable physics, silly side-quests, length, pace, etc).  

But I am very interested in seeing how Kylo and Rey end up and I am looking forward to that struggle. 

And I predict that "Ghost Luke" will be in the next movie and he will do what he said he will do- he will spend every waking moment bugging the shit out of Kylo Ren.

Then again... we've been wrong before.  

 

[Iskaral Pust]

34 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Wait, how does that work? I thought it was only a few days before he leaves to save his friends. 

Between ESB and RotJ. 

[Iskaral Pust]

@Rockroi good post. 

I’m not even making predictions for Ep IX.  As other have said, it feels like they brought many of the expected trilogy elements forward into TLJ — especially the Rey/Ren showdown — which means we have more potential for uncharted territory next time or some other variation from the arc of the OT.  

[RumHam]

9 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Between ESB and RotJ. 

Where was this established? I always got the impression from their conversation in Jedi that he had not come back. It also doesn't seem like he'd delay the mission to rescue Han while he went back to train. 

[Corvinus85]

21 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Where was this established? I always got the impression from their conversation in Jedi that he had not come back. It also doesn't seem like he'd delay the mission to rescue Han while he went back to train. 

Well at some point he did have to go get a new lightsaber.

[DaveSumm]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

Anakin was as competent and powerful with the force as Rey shows without any training. 

Both came about because of imbalance. 

He was? He had quick reflexes, I don't recall him doing anything overt. No light sabre, no mind tricks, no telekinesis...

[Iskaral Pust]

22 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Where was this established? I always got the impression from their conversation in Jedi that he had not come back. It also doesn't seem like he'd delay the mission to rescue Han while he went back to train. 

You're challenging my memory here.  At the end of ESB, Luke receives his mechanical hand and tells Leia that she should start the hunt for Han, but in the meantime there is something he has to do. (complete his training)  His defeat to Vader made him realize he was too hasty in leaving Dagobah.

At the start of RotJ, quite a lot of time has elapsed.  C3PO makes some reference about it taking time to track Han to Jabba, plus even after they discovered where Han is, Lando had time to infiltrate Jabba's court before Leia showed up with Chewie.  And then when Luke arrives at Jabba's palace, he announces himself as a fully trained Jedi, plus Luke is noticeably more composed and mature and has had time to construct his own green light saber to replace the blue one lost in his severed hand.

I thought it was clear in the story that Luke returned to Yoda for a substantial period to complete his training.

[Iskaral Pust]

After watching TLJ, my son (now 11) finally picked up the Timothy Zahn trilogy that I bought him for Christmas two years ago.  I knew at the time that those books would probably be heavy going for a nine year old, but I'm glad to see him enjoying them now.

[DaveSumm]

11 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

You're challenging my memory here.  At the end of ESB, Luke receives his mechanical hand and tells Leia that she should start the hunt for Han, but in the meantime there is something he has to do. (complete his training)  His defeat to Vader made him realize he was too hasty in leaving Dagobah.

At the start of RotJ, quite a lot of time has elapsed.  C3PO makes some reference about it taking time to track Han to Jabba, plus even after they discovered where Han is, Lando had time to infiltrate Jabba's court before Leia showed up with Chewie.  And then when Luke arrives at Jabba's palace, he announces himself as a fully trained Jedi, plus Luke is noticeably more composed and mature and has had time to construct his own green light saber to replace the blue one lost in his severed hand.

I thought it was clear in the story that Luke returned to Yoda for a substantial period to complete his training.

A lot of time did elapse, but he didn't spend it with Yoda. After rescuing Han he goes back to Dagobah, and asks Yoda about Vader being his father for the first time.