The Last Jedi, not the last spoiler thread

[Ran]

17 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

For what it's worth:

https://screenrant.com/george-lucas-star-wars-sequel-trilogy-story/

Hamill apparently knew Lucas's outline and he's lamented in interviews that they didn't follow it more closely. I can't see how to square that with this report regarding what the art book says, other than someone -- either the people quoted in this book, or Hamill -- have misinterpreted or misconstrued what Lucas had intended for Luke.

My suspicion is that Lucas intended Luke to be at the first temple, but that he had indicated it wasn't because he had given up but rather because he had come to believe that was where he was supposed to be for some higher purpose even though he knew that he could be out there fighting the good fight. (Going to go further and speculate that George intended there be some Force-enhancing artifact at the temple that would allow Luke to do something awesome at the sacrifice of his own life...)

Then you can see the people who worked on the production seeing Luke's passivity as his having "given up" while Hamill focused on the "higher purpose" angle. But that's my guess.

[Derfel Cadarn]

What Mark needa to realise os had Lucas done the sequels, he'd have been stuck in a green screen room.  In TLJ he was on location.

[Ran]

He's not asking for Lucas to have done the films. He was saying that he liked the sound of Lucas's outline better than what Disney has come up with.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 12/21/2017 at 1:02 AM, House Balstroko said:

Let me weigh in on the issue. The biggest problem the LJ faces is how it blatantly ignores what was set up in FA.

[...]

-Luke’s arc completely contradicts what was established in FA. He went into exile following the defeat of the Jedi and gave R2 a map showing the coordinates of the planet he went to. In LJ, it turns out he doesn’t want to be found and went there to die. This is probably the worst contradiction.

Perfectly reasonable for him to go bitter and cynical on his self-imposed exile.

On 12/21/2017 at 1:02 AM, House Balstroko said:

-Leia’s sendoff doesn’t work at all considering that all the scenes were shot before Carrie passed away. That makes her flight through space all the worse because it is devoid of any emotional bond. If they didn’t want to kill of the characters, they should have looked to Fast 7 as an example of how to do a powerful send off without compromising the integrity of the character.

There was no sendoff, period. I'm looking forward to what they're going to do about it in Ep. 9, for now I restrain judgement.

On 12/21/2017 at 1:02 AM, House Balstroko said:

-What happened to the Knights of Ren?

They were some one-liner in Ep. 7, right?

On 12/21/2017 at 1:02 AM, House Balstroko said:

-Yoda setting a tree on fire. When did Force ghosts gain the ability to interact with the material world? Why for that matter, did Obi -Wan and Anakin not show up? Both are far more important to Luke than Yoda.

Re: setting a tree on fire with your handy pocket thunder - maybe it would be impossible in any other place in the Universe, except the piece of land where the ancient Jedi Temple was built, where the boundaries between the Jedi and the Force and the physical world could be less defined. That's the rationalization I came up with at the theater and one I can live with.

Re: why Yoda - well, it had to be an old master, so Anakin was straight out - he really didn't spend too much time instructing his son in the peaceful ways of Jedi. Yoda clocked more hours than Obi-Wan as Luke's Jedi instructor. And Obi-Wan would never have the chutzpah to set the temple on fire, no more than Luke would.

On 12/21/2017 at 1:02 AM, House Balstroko said:

-Killing off Snoke was a terrible idea. Once again FA, shows up to be an important background player. Who is this guy? Plagueis? You don’t just build up the big bad and then take him out in the most idiotic way possible.

Most idiotic? Objection. The chaotic nature of the Dark Side, his hubris and underestimating of his student, brought his doom, not unlike the Emperor's in ROTJ. I would say "the most fitting way possible".

[Astromech]

2 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

 

Most idiotic? Objection. The chaotic nature of the Dark Side, his hubris and underestimating of his student, brought his doom, not unlike the Emperor's in ROTJ. I would say "the most fitting way possible".

I found it comical that Ren killed him while he was talking about reading Ren's feelings. A callback to the Emperor and his always 20/20 force sight?

[Darth Richard II]

Where is this info coming from that Luke left R2 a map keep coming from? I;ve gone into why he didn;t twice so I won;t again but is this fan speculation that got out of control or what?

[Astromech]

Speaking of R2, why the hell did Finn and Rose need to search for a hacker when they simply had to tell Chewie to bring R2 back on the Falcon? I really didn't care for Finn and Rose's arc.

[Martell Spy]

How Did Luke Skywalker Pull Off That Incredible Force Trick in The Last Jedi? A Star Wars Physicist Weighs in.

https://slate.com/arts/2017/12/a-q-and-a-with-a-physicist-about-luke-skywalkers-force-projection.html

[Kalbear]

7 hours ago, Ran said:

Agreed on the space opera point. That said, that RotS  scene is the one that Darth Richard mentioned earlier. It's such a bizzare scene -- it seems like a real outlier within the canon -- but there's something about stabilizers thrown out in the scene (IIRC, looked it up on Youtube) so I'll run with the idea that the artificial gravity got screwy from whatever damage the ship was taking and was not adjusting properly to the pitch of the ship.

But we see this all over. We see it with the falcon, we see it where the star destroyers are flying near each other and have to move in order to dodge quickly, etc. 

[Ran]

They shake or whatever, which I always took to mean that the artifical gravity was not necessarily instantenously stabilizing things so that people never felt acceleration, shakes, etc. I don't recall anyone in the OT ever seeming like they were being turned upside down when the Falcon was turning loops or spinning while in outer space, though, but that may just be my memory playing tricks.

ETA: For example, here's the Falcon turning a hard left, tilting ninety degrees, and Lando's chilling in his seat while someone is standing behind him working a control panel. There's many more like it, especially when you get into the Deathstar and the Falcon is twisting and turning upside down (from our perspective):

 

[Kalbear]

30 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Speaking of R2, why the hell did Finn and Rose need to search for a hacker when they simply had to tell Chewie to bring R2 back on the Falcon? I really didn't care for Finn and Rose's arc.

They couldn't talk to Rey or the Falcon; Rey tries and fails to reach them several times. 

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

They shake or whatever, which I always took to mean that the artifical gravity was not necessarily instantenously stabilizing things so that people never felt acceleration, shakes, etc. I don't recall anyone in the OT ever seeming like they were being turned upside down when the Falcon was turning loops or spinning while in outer space, though, but that may just be my memory playing tricks.

Yeah, it happens all the time. Memorably in ROTJ with the Falcon attacking the Death Star. 

Star Wars has always had incredibly shitty physics.

[Darth Richard II]

That scene in RoTS is mentioned a lot when people bring up wonky Star Wars physics. I remember seeing it in the theater and thinking, yeah, people are going to tear into this one.

[Ran]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Yeah, it happens all the time. Memorably in ROTJ with the Falcon attacking the Death Star. 

Star Wars has always had incredibly shitty physics.

I just linked the battle. Does not happen.

Here's the asteroid field chase in TESB, as well. Leia and C-3PO standing around in the cockpit, Han and Chewie not strapped in, while Han is rapidly evading, pitching the ship down 90 degrees, spinning, etc... or that graceful loop, Leia's again standing after very clearly not having been strapped into the seat:

 

That tilting ship in RotS is absolutely an outlier. Jolts and so on are registered as slight accelerations, but I guess the idea is that acceleration dampers provide consistent gravity so that you always feel more-or-less level no matter what way the ship is oriented.

[Martell Spy]

54 minutes ago, Astromech said:

I found it comical that Ren killed him while he was talking about reading Ren's feelings. A callback to the Emperor and his always 20/20 force sight?

Maybe the Dark Side purposely blinds the masters at moments like this. It may want Ren in charge.

[Kalbear]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

I just linked the battle. Does not happen.

Here's the asteroid field chase in TESB, as well. Leia and C-3PO standing around in the cockpit, Han and Chewie not strapped in, while Han is rapidly evading, pitching the ship down 90 degrees, spinning, etc... or that graceful loop, Leia's again standing after very clearly not having been strapped into the seat:

I wasn't talking about the asteroids. I was talking about when the Falcon flies between the Star Destroyers and the imperial's reactions. But in the above video, this point was where I was thinking about it.
 

 

[Kalbear]

Another one from the prequels, this time TPM and Anakin:

 

[Darth Richard II]

You guys are kind of making me want to watch the prequels, you monsters

[Darth Richard II]

2 hours ago, Ran said:

Hamill apparently knew Lucas's outline and he's lamented in interviews that they didn't follow it more closely. I can't see how to square that with this report regarding what the art book says, other than someone -- either the people quoted in this book, or Hamill -- have misinterpreted or misconstrued what Lucas had intended for Luke.

My suspicion is that Lucas intended Luke to be at the first temple, but that he had indicated it wasn't because he had given up but rather because he had come to believe that was where he was supposed to be for some higher purpose even though he knew that he could be out there fighting the good fight. (Going to go further and speculate that George intended there be some Force-enhancing artifact at the temple that would allow Luke to do something awesome at the sacrifice of his own life...)

Then you can see the people who worked on the production seeing Luke's passivity as his having "given up" while Hamill focused on the "higher purpose" angle. But that's my guess.

I imagine the reason for Luke going into exile was different in Lucas version. That seems to be the main sticking point for a lot of people.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

Second viewing vastly improved the experience for me. I would now put this one well ahead of TFA, and challenge ROTJ for a spot in my Star Wars movie pecking order. 

Watching a second time got me past the critiquing fanboy stage and allowed me to just sit back and appreciate the movie for what it was. And for the most part, it was very, very good. @mormont I get what you're saying now about the force-flying Leia scene (although I still refuse to even playfully insult people for disagreeing  ). It was a very poignant moment, and was bolstered by the fact that we saw Leia using the force, albeit passively, at several points in the film. That said, the only part of the movie where I actually teared up was at Leia's and Holdo's parting, though that may have been due to reading this week that Carrie Fisher herself script-doctored that scene. 

I think what I liked the most about the movie this time was that each major character had a defined arc. By the end, Rey, Kylo, Poe and Finn had all been through experiences that will help shape them going forward. 

Rey has learned the nature of the Force and her importance to the cause of the Resistance. She's also learned that she is capable of more than she'd previously considered. Like Luke in the OT, she now knows that the burden of harnessing her power for the greatest good is on her and is not dependent on anyone else (i.e. Luke). Will she be the one to bring the Force into balance? It certainly looks that way. Although I also kept a close watch on the symbolism in the film, particularly the mosaic on the floor of the first Jedi temple. That thing is showcased a number of times. I'm still curious what it will end up representing. 

Kylo, in destroying Snoke, has assumed the agency he has so desperately craved, but still feels an emptiness he can't quite overcome. I still think it's possible that he can be redeemed because he's so obviously tortured by his nature. Can I just interject here that Adam Driver is absolutely killing it in this role? He brings a nuance that is difficult to achieve. Far from just the petulant child, he is in fact a torn and dismantled soul and he plays that out in every second of screentime. It's amazing to behold. 

Poe has learned what it means to be a leader. It means patience, compassion and sacrifice. The look that Leia gave him on Crait when he led the survivors to their escape was very telling. In that moment, she knew that he got it. He finally understood that being "the hero" wasn't important. He learned this both from his failures and also from Holdo's sacrifice. He probably grew more than any other character in the story from start to finish.

Finn learned from Rose that running away from your problems never solves anything. He took her courage (as just a "regular person" with no special training, no status) and learned from it. Her resourcefulness and pragmatism saved him more than once from decisions he would have later regretted, or that would've cost him his life for nothing. I'd also note that I have much more appreciation for Rose after this viewing than I did after the first. Hell, I even enjoyed Canto Bight this time around. 

In short, every character of note is set up to be much more interesting in IX than they were at the beginning of TLJ. It's hard to ask for much more than that.