Dany was smart to crucify some of the Mereen slave masters; but she did it the wrong way.

[thor2006]

Just now, John Doe said:

Lincoln didn't become president because it was his birthright. Under a Dany rule, he would've probably been too busy being tied to his land to even have any sort of political career.

That sin can be imputed to all heroes and villains in the book Essosi, Westerosi. So it is irrelevant to single her when Eddard, Robb, Dornish, Stannis are guilty of the same things. It is the Westeros system so I don't understand why only Dany gets the blame?

In my country we abolished slavery where there still absolute rulers and feudal nobility like others country in the world. Doesn't make that accomplishment anything but good. The people who did that were not evil just because they also didn't abolished the feudal system and absolute rule alongside slavery.

Also Dany gave the slaves the right to improve themselves ,hope for a better system that no hope was before like many others abolitionists. The fact in your mind they solution was not perfect doesn't mean it is the right choice to do to try to crush slavery in Slavers Bay. 

The fact that Reconstruction failed and Jim Crow followed doesn't mean that American slaves should have stayed enslaved waiting for perfection.

[Mon ami]

The slave master

On 12/28/2017 at 5:03 PM, Sourjapes said:

In the long run Dany would have an easier time ending slavery in slavery's bay if she is offering the ruling classes an economic alternative. Albeit, I don't know exactly what that would be. Not enough information on the details of the economics of Planetos

You're kidding yourself if you think the Masters will accept any trade for slavery.  Slavery isn't just a matter of economy.  It is a social system that confers to these men the highest position they know:  being the master of men.  There's ego and class to think of.  Can you offer the lords of Westeros something that will make them agree to become common?  Do you believe Tywin Lannister and Ned Stark would agree to do away with the class system and agree to let their families become common?  Ned Stark would fight to the death before anyone hooked a plow to Sansa.  Tywin would exhaust his levies and let them all die before letting himself become common.  The Masters are the same way.  They will do anything to hold on to their high status.  It is inevitable that most of them will fight until they die to protect the slave trade and the owning of slaves.  They will have to die.  The survivors will need to be broken and all of their abilities to take up arms against Dany's government and the free people taken from them.  Only a complete tear down of the masters, their families, and the slaving system can guarantee the freedom for the people. 

The war for freedom is not over.  Wait until it's over before judging whether it's successful or not.  Don't mistake the cease fire for anything but the masters gathering their strength. 

All of the people who got executed were benefiting from and participating in the enslavement of their fellow human beings.  They all had blood on their hands from a lifetime of profiting in slavery.  Every single one of those masters probably had a box at the fighting pits.   If you were of the master class in Mereen you were profiting and benefiting from the slave trade.  It's that simple.  I'm not saying they were the ones who physically lifted up the slave children and hammered the nails.  None of them did that.  That's too much manual labor.  They ordered it done and had other slaves kill slaves.  They're used to it.  The fighting pits is a major part of their culture.  It's their football, basketball, rugby, dancing with the stars, The Voice UK, all combined.  And if you buy a ticket to the fighting pits and cheer on as slaves kill slaves then you're guilty of murder. 

2 hours ago, Helena Kyle said:

How about you stop making excuses for slavery.  Ofcourse the great majority of former slaves are better off now than they were before Dany they came along.  Why do you think a lot of the pit fighters are fighting on Dany's side outside Meereen.  They may enjoy fighting but they certainly don't enjoy being owned. 

Taking down slavery is not easy.  It's the hardest reform that's ever been attempted in the world of aSoIaF.  Hundreds of thousands are free, thanks to Dany and her dragons.   Social change on that scale will not be easy especially when you have the former masters trying to bring it back.

The truth is, the problem at Slaver's Bay is the fault of the former masters because they refuse to give up their evil ways of slaving.  If they will get with the program and do the right thing, the moral thing, and accept the end of slavery things would be so much easier.  But no, they want to hold on to their evil system and they want to bring back slavery.  The masters are at fault to start with because slavery is wrong from the beginning.  All of the challenges at the Bay are their fault because they resists doing the right thing.

As far as Dany wanting to take back her kingdom.  That is no different from the Starks wanting to take back their castle and their lands.  No difference at all.  Demanding loyalty is something that all of the nobles in Westeros practice.  So you don't think the Starks demanded loyalty from their banners because of their name/family.  They sure did.  They dragged their bannermen to war, twice in the last 20 years because the Stark parents couldn't manage to properly raise obedient, honorable kids.  That's right.  Lyanna and Brandon were losers who caused the Starks to call their banners to war.  Robb called his banners to war because Mom chose to arrest the son of the most powerful man in the kingdom instead of taking the matter to the right authority, the king.  Unlike the Starks, Dany is actually trying to help people and free them from slavery.  The Starks were just selfish shits who only wanted to look out for themselves.  Dany is at least working to free as many people as she can. 

Dany's war against the Masters is the most justified use of force in aSoIaF.  It's not a war where thousands are killed to save the life of two young men (Jon Arryn).  I will add, it's not even a war where thousands of farmers and craftsmen are sent to kill other farmers and craftsmen just because a rival family arrested the drunkard son of the House.  It's not an emotional war where a grief stricken brother wants to lead thousands to kill thousands just to rescue a beloved sister from a terrible marriage.  Dany's war can end slavery for good and save millions from a fate worse than death.  Many will surely die to win this war but they would have died for a good cause.  If there is any good cause to fight this is it.  Fight for freedom and fight for a better future.  The war is like a bad case of the flu.  Things will get worse before they get better but freedom is worth it. 

[Roswell]

Staying in Astapor was not an option.  The city lacked strong defenses and the other two cities would send their own unsullied to attack.  Can't stay in Astapor without first attacking Yunkai and Meereen.  Freedom is like to be short if they had stayed.  They had to abandon Astapor and move on.  Meereen is the ideal place to hole up because it has better walls and it's the most powerful of the slaving cities.  The great pyramid is a strong defensive place too.  Dany beat up the Children of the Harpy but she wasn't powerful enough to deal them a fatal blow.  Meereen is the best place to buy some time for the dragons to grow and to build up her armies.  It's a helluva place to gain valuable hands-on experience at ruling the unruly. 

[The Sunland Lord]

2 hours ago, Mon ami said:

Dany's war against the Masters is the most justified use of force in aSoIaF.  It's not a war where thousands are killed to save the life of two young men (Jon Arryn).  

So you're saying that Jon Arryn should've fed Aerys with the two corpses he demanded? If you care about equality, why do you think Ned and Robert should've been killed? What crime did they commit? 

[Sourjapes]

8 hours ago, thor2006 said:

The fact that Reconstruction failed and Jim Crow followed doesn't mean that American slaves should have stayed enslaved waiting for perfection.

No, but it does give one pause to consider that perhaps the way things played out is not the best way they could have.

[the trees have eyes]

8 hours ago, thor2006 said:

The fact that Reconstruction failed and Jim Crow followed doesn't mean that American slaves should have stayed enslaved waiting for perfection.

This.  If we didn't abolish alvery until we had a perfect solution for everyone then quite obviously it would never get abolished.  The argument that some former slaves suffered from liberation and some former masters were decent enough owners is almost probably true but it is no argument for saying slavery should continue. Surely the "training" of the Unsullied and the crucifixion of the slave children on the road to Meereen was meant to drive this home.  It's valid to critique the post-emancipation settlements and policies that Dany put in place in both Astapor and Meereen but the idea that she should have left things alone is a hard one to give much time to.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 12/19/2017 at 9:29 PM, Tygett Lannister said:

They were born into this position, it is part of their culture.

....You realize that being pro slavery in the 1850's was part of US culture right? That doesn't make it right... In my high school, it was certainly still part of the culture to be extremely homophobic and racist. Thank god most people didn't have your attitude and started standing against that. If someone chooses to have slaves, and treat them as sub human, they are horrible people. I am sorry, perhaps they can change or find redemption, but part of culture or not, it is awful. I am pretty sure many Americans still make excuses like yours for why we have to accept our parents or grandparents racism. We don't. I can keep making examples if you like. It was part of German culture during WWII to murder Jews. Should we let them off? How about in Japan where they used comfort women (sex slaves essentially) during WWII. Should those people go unpunished because everbody was doing it? (that is essentially the same idea as part of their culture)

Honestly, I love this site. I love commenting and being part of a community. However, I am really tired of people defending murderers, sociopaths, or slavery. Jesus people, look at your words and really think about them. 

[Bowen Marsh]

On 12/24/2017 at 7:45 PM, Sourjapes said:

That is incredibly naive. How do you empower slaves like that? You can't just say, "You have the power now" and then walk away. They have no experience or familiarity with power. No real culture of power or rule, only obedience. Dany's slaughter, and the slaughter others have proposed, is also not a good way to build a lasting relationship between these people. You wipe out the slave class and the survivors will just be that much more vengeful and furthermore there will be nobody left who knows how to run anything.

 

Kill the worst of the slavers and compel the others to agree to reforms or restitution for freed slaves. You cannot just change a culture with a stroke, not if expect to have a functional society.

You have to win the war before you can worry about mending relationships.  Tbh, I don't think the Ghiscari will accept anything short of their old ways of owning slaves.  It's best to hit them hard.  While it is true that you cannot change a culture with a stroke you also cannot change a culture that has been enslaving people without shedding a lot of blood.  Oftentimes the disagreements between people cannot be settled without one vanquishing the other.  Dany will have to vanquish the old masters in order to abolish slavery and that will mean a lot of bloodshed but it is justified.

[Bowen Marsh]

1 hour ago, Sourjapes said:

No, but it does give one pause to consider that perhaps the way things played out is not the best way they could have.

The best way doesn't exist.  Abolishing slavery in that part of that world has never been tried.  Nobody has ever attempted to enact something that bold before.  There is no blueprint for how to do this.  I think Dany is doing as good a job as anyone could do. 

8 hours ago, The Transporter said:

Staying in Astapor was not an option.  The city lacked strong defenses and the other two cities would send their own unsullied to attack.  Can't stay in Astapor without first attacking Yunkai and Meereen.  Freedom is like to be short if they had stayed.  They had to abandon Astapor and move on.  Meereen is the ideal place to hole up because it has better walls and it's the most powerful of the slaving cities.  The great pyramid is a strong defensive place too.  Dany beat up the Children of the Harpy but she wasn't powerful enough to deal them a fatal blow.  Meereen is the best place to buy some time for the dragons to grow and to build up her armies.  It's a helluva place to gain valuable hands-on experience at ruling the unruly. 

I don't think they could have defended Astapor.  To stay would have been suicide.  Team Dany had to move forward and take on the other cities before they can organize a sizeable army to attack Astapor.  Marching on to Mereen bought Dany the time that she needed to find relative safety while she gathers allies.  She hamstringed the harpy. 

[The Fattest Leech]

38 minutes ago, Bowen Marsh said:

The best way doesn't exist.  Abolishing slavery in that part of that world has never been tried.  Nobody has ever attempted to enact something that bold before.  There is no blueprint for how to do this.  I think Dany is doing as good a job as anyone could do. 

True. And maybe that is the point the author is trying to get across. Acting on high emotions that allows you to make a better change for a larger amount of people is better than following the misconstrued ways of generations past. Dany is trying to help the essosian version of “others”, or, now Free Folk. 

 

[Sourjapes]

2 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

 Dany will have to vanquish the old masters in order to abolish slavery and that will mean a lot of bloodshed but it is justified.

That's what I say about the Indian Wars! You want to make a great nation you have to break some eggs, you got to kill some people. It's dirty, rotten work, but that's what societies are built on. Besides, the more thorough your slaughter the less lasting racial grievances you'll have afterwards.

 

[Sourjapes]

 

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

True. And maybe that is the point the author is trying to get across. Acting on high emotions that allows you to make a better change for a larger amount of people is better than following the misconstrued ways of generations past. Dany is trying to help the essosian version of “others”, or, now Free Folk. 

 

What Dany is doing is kicking off a massive and bloody war with no real clear ideas for what to do after the war... I mean except for just abandon the whole land and flee to the other side of the world and start ANOTHER massive war so she can rule over the same people her ancestors ruled over. 'cause you know, she owes it to their ghosts to go and sit on that big uncomfortable chair and have people kneel to her and call her 'Your grace'. Thousands of people NEED to die for this, it is justified, and tends of thousands more NEED to be maimed and crippled for it. It's for a good cause.

 

Dany is trying to destroy a civilization to terminate its slaving practices. This is doable, but bloody and destructive, and thus of questionable morale legitimacy. I think a better way for her to end slavery here is not to destroy the civilization she has found herself in, but instead to slowly change it by using her monopoly on force, and good diplomacy and law making, to trigger a gradual shift that will not trigger a massive war. What Dany has done has failed. The other slaver cities have all risen up against her and even further west they are taking an interest now. I'm very curious to see how GRRM will fix all of this for her or if he even will. Is Dany going to stay there for the entirety of her life, assuming she can even hold on to power? If not, what is she going to leave behind?

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

'cause you know, she owes it to their ghosts to go and sit on that big uncomfortable chair and have people kneel to her and call her 'Your grace'. Thousands of people NEED to die for this, it is justified, and tends of thousands more NEED to be maimed and crippled for it. It's for a good cause.

Well she's still a noble. Duty to her house and all that no matter the cost (others must pay), because it's something she has to do.

Is it justified? Well in her context yeah. Like Stannis and Robb are just in waging there war that'll kill thousands to get their crown and avenge the wrongs done their house.

What Dany has done has failed. The other slaver cities have all risen up against her and even further west they are taking an interest now. I'm very curious to see how GRRM will fix all of this for her or if he even will. Is Dany going to stay there for the entirety of her life, assuming she can even hold on to power? If not, what is she going to leave behind? 

She'd  have to conquer the entire region else any change she attempted would fail to stick. Which she could have done after taking the IT and when her dragons are fully grown-instead of bunkering down in Mereen and take it as a "practice run". Youre right. Dany moved to fast, rashly.

[Vaegon the dragonless]

I think theyre is another problem with slavers bay. All of the wealth of the region comes only from slavery, we now absolutly no other good (other than olives) the region has. So once you abolish slavery theyre is no wealth left in the region. Slavers bay is not even really fertile, the only reason we see for these cities to exist is slavery but once slavery is gone for good this makes slavers bay (or dragons bay) well good for nothing. It will slowly be put out of the trade route and empoverish it self. Im not saying that slavery is good but I dont see any other way the region could prosper and not be another red waste.

4 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

 

What Dany is doing is kicking off a massive and bloody war with no real clear ideas for what to do after the war... I mean except for just abandon the whole land and flee to the other side of the world and start ANOTHER massive war so she can rule over the same people her ancestors ruled over. 'cause you know, she owes it to their ghosts to go and sit on that big uncomfortable chair and have people kneel to her and call her 'Your grace'. Thousands of people NEED to die for this, it is justified, and tends of thousands more NEED to be maimed and crippled for it. It's for a good cause.

 

Dany is trying to destroy a civilization to terminate its slaving practices. This is doable, but bloody and destructive, and thus of questionable morale legitimacy. I think a better way for her to end slavery here is not to destroy the civilization she has found herself in, but instead to slowly change it by using her monopoly on force, and good diplomacy and law making, to trigger a gradual shift that will not trigger a massive war. What Dany has done has failed. The other slaver cities have all risen up against her and even further west they are taking an interest now. I'm very curious to see how GRRM will fix all of this for her or if he even will. Is Dany going to stay there for the entirety of her life, assuming she can even hold on to power? If not, what is she going to leave behind?

 

[the trees have eyes]

9 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

That's what I say about the Indian Wars! You want to make a great nation you have to break some eggs, you got to kill some people. It's dirty, rotten work, but that's what societies are built on. Besides, the more thorough your slaughter the less lasting racial grievances you'll have afterwards.

 

The Indian Wars?  Your analogy is so misplaced as to be offensive.  Dany's agenda is to liberate the slaves of the area, who like Missandei and her brothers are not native Essosi and part of the local culture but victims taken in war from the Lazareen or Naath and wherever else they can be captured as Tyrion, Penny and Jorah Mormont find out.  Moreover Dany does not come as a colonialist or a settler looking to displace the Essosi, to take their lands for herself and people but to reform the society and leave the general populace as they were, worshipping the same gods, wearing the same national dress and carrying on largley as they had for millennia - just not owning other human beings as property to be treated as violently as they see fit.

Horrible analogy.

[Tagganaro]

11 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

True. And maybe that is the point the author is trying to get across. Acting on high emotions that allows you to make a better change for a larger amount of people is better than following the misconstrued ways of generations past. Dany is trying to help the essosian version of “others”, or, now Free Folk. 

 

I definitely think GRRM intended for there to be serious parallels between Dany and Jon's issues in ADWD.  They are both "learning to lead" to quote the old re-read threads on here.  They are both stuck dealing with the consequences of their decisions to "stay put" in ASOS rather than move on (Dany could have just left Mereen behind, that's what Illyrio and everyone expected her to do, Jon could have left the NW and married Val which he spends most of ADWD regretting not doing).  They are both in the moral right of things (Dany ending slavery, Jon trying to save an entire group of people from going extinct) but encounter entrenched competition that they really can't fight or combat.  

9 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

 

What Dany is doing is kicking off a massive and bloody war with no real clear ideas for what to do after the war... I mean except for just abandon the whole land and flee to the other side of the world and start ANOTHER massive war so she can rule over the same people her ancestors ruled over. 'cause you know, she owes it to their ghosts to go and sit on that big uncomfortable chair and have people kneel to her and call her 'Your grace'. Thousands of people NEED to die for this, it is justified, and tends of thousands more NEED to be maimed and crippled for it. It's for a good cause.

 

Dany is trying to destroy a civilization to terminate its slaving practices. This is doable, but bloody and destructive, and thus of questionable morale legitimacy. I think a better way for her to end slavery here is not to destroy the civilization she has found herself in, but instead to slowly change it by using her monopoly on force, and good diplomacy and law making, to trigger a gradual shift that will not trigger a massive war. What Dany has done has failed. The other slaver cities have all risen up against her and even further west they are taking an interest now. I'm very curious to see how GRRM will fix all of this for her or if he even will. Is Dany going to stay there for the entirety of her life, assuming she can even hold on to power? If not, what is she going to leave behind?

I don't know...I think as has been mentioned Dany is trying to end slavery in a culture founded on that very institution.  Sort of like the Civil War, I don't think there's any way but a "massive and bloody war" to accomplish that.  The slaver culture is too entrenched, there are too many wealthy families that need the slavery business to stay wealthy.  In short, there is no economically feasible way to eliminate slavery since Slaver's Bay, and indeed I'd say pretty much the entirety of Essos, are reliant on that slaver economy.  That's why you get all these other slaver cities, and even merchants like Illyrio Mopatis taking a concern in what Dany is doing.  She's disrupting the world economy.  

I think Dany is about to leave, but what she learned the hard way in ADWD is that she cannot compromise.  A Dragon plants no trees, she shouldn't have left Yunkai alone once she defeated the armies in the field and she never should have agreed to marry Hizdahr and re-open the fighting pits.  She needed to be more brutal in dealing with the Harpies as the Shavepate suggested.  She will probably get that opportunity once she returns to Mereen with a Dothraki horde behind her.

[Sourjapes]

3 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The Indian Wars?  Your analogy is so misplaced as to be offensive.  Dany's agenda is to liberate the slaves of the area,

My analogy fits perfectly. You welcome wanton slaughter because you think your cause is morale enough to justify it. I feel the same about mine. I'm going to build a great nation that will feed millions with its crops, innovate countless new technologies, and even plant its flag on the moon. If some stone-age plains nomads have to suffer for it then so be it.

 

How is my cause less justified than yours? In any case, I think trying to end slavery in Slavery's Bay is a good cause and worth doing... it's the HOW that I disagree with. I don't think what Dany is doing will have any real lasting impact there and in the process it will kill and maim a lot of people. It's her approach that is flawed.

[Sourjapes]

8 hours ago, Vaegon the dragonless said:

I think theyre is another problem with slavers bay. All of the wealth of the region comes only from slavery, we now absolutly no other good (other than olives) the region has. So once you abolish slavery theyre is no wealth left in the region. Slavers bay is not even really fertile, the only reason we see for these cities to exist is slavery but once slavery is gone for good this makes slavers bay (or dragons bay) well good for nothing. It will slowly be put out of the trade route and empoverish it self. Im not saying that slavery is good but I dont see any other way the region could prosper and not be another red waste.

 

 

That's true and we don't have a lot of information. That's part of why I suggest that, on the way to eventually ending slavery, you can still do other things to improve the lives of the slaves. Limit who they can be sold to, mandate that slave families must be kept together, slaves can't be killed or maimed on a whim, infirm slaves must be cared for. All of these changes would be met with resistance, but I think less resistance than what Dany did which was just emancipate them enmass. At the same time if their are other 'cash crops' in the region then try to support those.

 

[Hodor the Articulate]

On 1/6/2018 at 7:36 PM, Sourjapes said:

I think you and others who celebrate Dany's actions are being blinded by an overzealous virtuous impulse. It seems unreasonable to me, and is countered by the text, that every slaver was the same and an advocate for the worst of the slaver classes's practices. I think I explained my reasoning here already though so I won't repeat it.

The text was very clear about who pinned the children onto those posts:

"The Great Masters [...] had nailed a slave child up on every milepost along the coast road from Yunkai, nailed them up still living with their entrails hanging out and one arm always outstretched to point the way to Meereen."

The Great Masters, if you'll remember, were the rulers of the city. They weren't just random Meereenese acting independently. So Dany was showing mercy by punishing only 163 of them.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On January 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM, John Doe said:

Do you think serfdom is much better than slavery? It depends on that. 

Hmm. Consistency, Sorry for my accusatory tone I was genuily curios if you were simply being biased against Dany. And to answer your question yeah sorta.