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Military strength of minor houses of the Reach

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Now either every other prominent Riverland castle had been taken, which I find unlikely or that the Mallisters, like the Freys, are still intact. 

 

Just a few sentences before that quote:

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"Your brother has been covering himself with glory," his father said. "He smashed the Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tullys under the walls of Riverrun. The lords of the Trident have been put to rout. Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen. Lord Blackwood led a few survivors back to Riverrun, where Jaime has them under siege. The rest fled to their own strongholds."
"Your father and I have been marching on each in turn," Ser Kevan said. "With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it. Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens …"

 

Kevan was going on about all the castles they have taken but Tyrion interrupts him. Kevan says Mallisters still hold their land but no talk about a Mallister levy where as Freys are told to be marshaling their levies.

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How is that support? The Mallisters are certainly prestigious, but their lands don't seem to be that huge as they are surrounded, both North and South, by Frey lands. 

Plus Mallister has to split his available men between his Navy, to stay and defend the town and castle from the Ironborn and to travel South with Robb. Seagard is in a much more vulnerable position that White Harbor, and they only spared just under 1,500 men. 

 

Mallister has how many ships? 6 longships and 2 galleys? a regular longship has 30 oarsmen or a bit fewer. Galleys have a huge size variance but smaller war galleys are around 80-100 oars. Now compare these to Stannis' fleet, not the sell sail  or commandeered part but his ships that come from his vassals. How many oarsmen in total do they have? Now, how many soldiers he has again from vassals and not mercs?

Robb had 6000 men at whispering wood, from what we have he had more than 5500-6000 horse before the split.

So Mallister forces, along with Edmure's remnants, small lord an hedge knights make at most some 1000 men, perhaps as few as some 500. 

Velaryons and Celtigars number hundreds in those small islands of theirs. Makes no sense Mallisters having so few soldiers compared to these two. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is only brought up by people of Tully blood as Hoster has clearly poisoned the well when it comes to the Freys. Is it any wonder that the Freys are not particularly in rush to help the Tullys when his daughter immediately starts shittalking about them as soon as she sees their castle?

Not all Tullies think badly of them, below is Edmure

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"Robb's won his battles against worse odds," Edmure replied, "and I have a plan. You've forgotten Roose Bolton. Lord Tywin defeated him on the Green Fork, but failed to pursue. When Lord Tywin went to Harrenhal, Bolton took the ruby ford and the crossroads. He has ten thousand men. I've sent word to Helman Tallhart to join him with the garrison Robb left at the Twins—"
"Edmure, Robb left those men to hold the Twins and make certain Lord Walder keeps faith with us." 
"He has," Edmure said stubbornly. "The Freys fought bravely in the Whispering Wood, and old Ser Stevron died at Oxcross, we hear. Ser Ryman and Black Walder and the rest are with Robb in the west, Martyn has been of great service scouting, and Ser Perwyn helped see you safe to Renly. Gods be good, how much more can we ask of them? Robb's betrothed to one of Lord Walder's daughters, and Roose Bolton wed another, I hear. And haven't you taken two of his grandsons to be fostered at Winterfell?"

If it's Hoster poisoning the Tullys, why is his heir so easily swayed on his opinion of "the scum of the Riverlands?"

 

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On 11.3.2018 at 0:22 AM, Bernie Mac said:

No offense, but why do you keep on saying for obvious reasons?

We have no idea how much the Riverlands can marshall.

We have semi-canon sources on how many they can field.

On 11.3.2018 at 0:22 AM, Bernie Mac said:

There is nothing to suggest the West can field 45k, I have zero reason to assume the Riverland can. 

There are semi-canon sources that they can field more than 45,000 men, in fact.

On 11.3.2018 at 0:22 AM, Bernie Mac said:

From both Cat and Tywin the only people who did not answer Edmure's summons were the Freys and Mallisters.

They don't really give us a list of the men who answered or didn't answer Edmure's summons. The Whents of Harrenhal should be a very powerful house, yet Lady Whent effectively raises no levies whatsoever. Possibly because nobody wanted to fight for an old, done woman. Or very few people wanted to defend dying Lord Hoster against the Lannister since they had fought against said Lord Hoster back at the Trident.

On 11.3.2018 at 0:22 AM, Bernie Mac said:

That is an assumption not based on anything in the books. 

I never said it was, did I?

On 11.3.2018 at 0:22 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Why are you ignoring the text? First you claimed they sent no one and the text disproves that. There is nothing in the books that suggest he only sent a token force. 

Mooton didn't really send any men we knew about to Edmure or Robb. We cannot really say he sent many. We don't even know whether his sons died in the war or not. It could be that the fact that Eleanor is his heir now is a mistake.

On 11.3.2018 at 0:22 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Why does Tywin and Kevan not consider these Lords a threat? Why do they only claim that the Freys and Mallisters are the only ones still standing?

Tywin doesn't fight a war against the Riverlands. Tywin wages a war against the Tullys of Riverrun and their allies because Catelyn Tully Stark abducted his son. This is not a war of conquest or a war of annihilation. Tywin has no reason to perceive or treat such Riverlords as enemies who stay out of the fighting.

Tywin is actually pissed that he has to concern himself with the Tullys and Starks - his real enemies, the people he sees as a real threat to his family and legacy, are Stannis and Renly Baratheon, the pretenders to the Iron Throne.

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16 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Just a few sentences before that quote:

Kevan was going on about all the castles they have taken but Tyrion interrupts him. Kevan says Mallisters still hold their land but no talk about a Mallister levy where as Freys are told to be marshaling their levies.

I'm not sure your point?

 Lord Jason Mallister had brought his power out from Seagard to join them as they 

In this context power is synonymous with levies. Mallister, whether he has brought 100 or a 1,000 men with him has till brought levies. 

What do you think GRRM means when he says he brought his power out?

 

16 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Mallister has how many ships? 6 longships and 2 galleys? a regular longship has 30 oarsmen or a bit fewer. Galleys have a huge size variance but smaller war galleys are around 80-100 oars. Now compare these to Stannis' fleet, not the sell sail  or commandeered part but his ships that come from his vassals. How many oarsmen in total do they have? Now, how many soldiers he has again from vassals and not mercs?

Again, I'm not sure your point here? Given we have no idea how many men the Mallister's can summon. None of the books, not the 5 in the series, or any of the other literature, give an indication of their power. They are largely absent from the Dance of the Dragons and the Blackfyre Rebellions. 

16 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Robb had 6000 men at whispering wood, from what we have he had more than 5500-6000 horse before the split.

He perhaps had 6,000 before the split. This may well be another case of the Manderly equation, were we are given the figure of 18,500 after the Manderly's have joined but the consensus seems to be that the figure did not actually include the Manderlys. 

16 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Velaryons and Celtigars number hundreds in those small islands of theirs. Makes no sense Mallisters having so few soldiers compared to these two. 

Why would it not? House Velaryon, at least during the Dance of the Dragons, ruled two towns. There is no reason to suspect that he is less powerful than the Mallisters, both control a town (we don't know if Velaryon's second was ever rebuilt) and both control ports, with the Velaryon's being more significant. 

16 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Not all Tullies think badly of them, below is Edmure

Edmure does. He is disgusted at the idea of having to marry a Frey, takes insult at their every action. 

Him wanting to move them was for his own plans to take on Tywin, nothing to do with him thinking positively about them.

16 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If it's Hoster poisoning the Tullys, why is his heir so easily swayed on his opinion of "the scum of the Riverlands?"

He is not. Every point his sister makes on the plans for his battle with Tywin he counters, it is not for love of the Freys but for his own plan. 

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We have semi-canon sources on how many they can field.

The same semi canon source tells us that Dorne can field 50k, and we know that is false. 

The same semi canon source states that the North can raise 45k. Do you believe that is accurate?

GRRM was given some figures for a board game. It makes sense he would even up the numbers, otherwise the game would be pretty flat. 

 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They don't really give us a list of the men who answered or didn't answer Edmure's summons. The Whents of Harrenhal should be a very powerful house, yet Lady Whent effectively raises no levies whatsoever.

Or, more likely, she had already sent her levies to Riverrun like the rest of the Riverlords. 

With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it.

Which is in line with the information we have been told elsewhere in the books

The west had been a tinderbox since Catelyn had seized Tyrion Lannister. Both Riverrun and Casterly Rock had called their banners

Ser Raymun Darry spoke up. "Ser Edmure had summoned me to Riverrun with all my strength. I was camped across the river from his walls, awaiting his commands, when the word reached me.

It seems likely that Shella would support one of the closest relatives she has alive. 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Mooton didn't really send any men we knew about to Edmure or Robb.

I have already provided the quote. 

"His lordship has been pardoned by the king."
"Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself.
 
You don't get to ignore quotes just because you don't like them. 
12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We cannot really say he sent many. We don't even know whether his sons died in the war or not. It could be that the fact that Eleanor is his heir now is a mistake.

It could well be, any points we make up could be mistakes. But until we are told otherwise it is canon that Eleanor is the heir of Maidenpool, meaning that either her brothers have died recently or they have been disinherited. 

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin doesn't fight a war against the Riverlands. Tywin wages a war against the Tullys of Riverrun and their allies because Catelyn Tully Stark abducted his son. This is not a war of conquest or a war of annihilation. Tywin has no reason to perceive or treat such Riverlords as enemies who stay out of the fighting.

Edmure called his banners. Tywin is at war with the Riverlands. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The same semi canon source tells us that Dorne can field 50k, and we know that is false. 

That doesn't make the numbers about the West or the Riverlands false, or does it?

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The same semi canon source states that the North can raise 45k. Do you believe that is accurate?

That hasn't anything to do with the Riverlands, either. For the North we got numbers in actual canonical works, for the Riverlands we don't get any of those. With the West it is similar - we do know they have the potential to raise more than 40,000 men.

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Or, more likely, she had already sent her levies to Riverrun like the rest of the Riverlords. 

With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it.

Which is in line with the information we have been told elsewhere in the books

If she had done that, where the hell are those Whent men?

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

The west had been a tinderbox since Catelyn had seized Tyrion Lannister. Both Riverrun and Casterly Rock had called their banners

Ser Raymun Darry spoke up. "Ser Edmure had summoned me to Riverrun with all my strength. I was camped across the river from his walls, awaiting his commands, when the word reached me.

It seems likely that Shella would support one of the closest relatives she has alive. 

The strength of the Darrys is pretty much non-existent since King Robert reduced them to landed knights. 

Calling banners doesn't mean that the men answering those summons send all their men to their lords. Even Ser Raymun Darry doesn't claim he came with all his strength. He simply says that Edmure called him with all his strength, not that he obeyed his command. 

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I have already provided the quote. 

"His lordship has been pardoned by the king."
"Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself.
 
You don't get to ignore quotes just because you don't like them.

It could well be, any points we make up could be mistakes. But until we are told otherwise it is canon that Eleanor is the heir of Maidenpool, meaning that either her brothers have died recently or they have been disinherited. 

That isn't a quote that proves Mooton's men actually reached and fought at Riverrun, nor when they did that, or how many men he sent.

Lord Swann also sent men to King Joffrey - one man, Ser Balon Swann, and, presumably, some squires, servants, and grooms. But we wouldn't say on that basis that the Swanns committed themselves to King Joffrey's cause, would we?

Or do we say Lady Dustin firmly stood behind King Robb's cause during the War of the Five Kings. She sent men to Robb, too. Just not all that many...

5 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Edmure called his banners. Tywin is at war with the Riverlands.

Edmure didn't even have any banners to call. Edmure wasn't the Lord of Riverrun when Tywin first attacked the Tullys.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't make the numbers about the West or the Riverlands false, or does it?

It does not make the true either. 

We have had 5 books and none of the information in those books correspond with the idea that the Riverlands has an army of 45k. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That hasn't anything to do with the Riverlands, either. For the North we got numbers in actual canonical works, for the Riverlands we don't get any of those. With the West it is similar - we do know they have the potential to raise more than 40,000 men.

Why ignore the question?

Do you think the North has a 45k army?

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If she had done that, where the hell are those Whent men?

Likely with Edmure at the battle of Riverrun. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The strength of the Darrys is pretty much non-existent since King Robert reduced them to landed knights. 

Not sure what this has to do with my point?

Edmure called his banners, the Whents are likely to be even more supportive of the Tully's than the Darrys are. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Calling banners doesn't mean that the men answering those summons send all their men to their lords.

Never claimed it was. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Even Ser Raymun Darry doesn't claim he came with all his strength. He simply says that Edmure called him with all his strength, not that he obeyed his command. 

Again, not sure your point. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That isn't a quote that proves Mooton's men actually reached and fought at Riverrun, nor when they did that, or how many men he sent.

He sent men to Rivverrun, the books can not be clearer. What do you think he sent his men to Riverrun for? Why do you think the smallfolk are calling him a coward for staying?

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Lord Swann also sent men to King Joffrey - one man, Ser Balon Swann, and, presumably, some squires, servants, and grooms. But we wouldn't say on that basis that the Swanns committed themselves to King Joffrey's cause, would we?

No one claims that Lord Balon sent men to the Crown, what is claimed is that he was neutral and kept his force at home. This is the opposite to the claims about Mooton, who sent men to Riverrun while he stayed at home like a coward. 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Or do we say Lady Dustin firmly stood behind King Robb's cause during the War of the Five Kings. She sent men to Robb, too. Just not all that many...

Where is it said that she did not send many? She, out of fear, sent as many as she could get away with. 

There is no source in the books that she did not send many 

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Edmure didn't even have any banners to call. Edmure wasn't the Lord of Riverrun when Tywin first attacked the Tullys.

Nor was Robb. Still called his banners and they still responded. 

 

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34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't make the numbers about the West or the Riverlands false, or does it?

That hasn't anything to do with the Riverlands, either. For the North we got numbers in actual canonical works, for the Riverlands we don't get any of those. With the West it is similar - we do know they have the potential to raise more than 40,000 men.

If she had done that, where the hell are those Whent men?

The strength of the Darrys is pretty much non-existent since King Robert reduced them to landed knights. 

Calling banners doesn't mean that the men answering those summons send all their men to their lords. Even Ser Raymun Darry doesn't claim he came with all his strength. He simply says that Edmure called him with all his strength, not that he obeyed his command. 

That isn't a quote that proves Mooton's men actually reached and fought at Riverrun, nor when they did that, or how many men he sent.

Lord Swann also sent men to King Joffrey - one man, Ser Balon Swann, and, presumably, some squires, servants, and grooms. But we wouldn't say on that basis that the Swanns committed themselves to King Joffrey's cause, would we?

Or do we say Lady Dustin firmly stood behind King Robb's cause during the War of the Five Kings. She sent men to Robb, too. Just not all that many...

Edmure didn't even have any banners to call. Edmure wasn't the Lord of Riverrun when Tywin first attacked the Tullys.

Martin stated at the time of the RPG endorsement that those numbers were roughly what a reasonably informed Westerosi (probably a lord) would BELIEVE each of the kingdoms can raise. As it turns out, for Dorne an in-universe reason was later provided in the books as to why the 50k belief was false. No such reasons have been provided for any other region as yet. (Either to show that the numbers were an over or under estimate, both of which are possible).

Hence, there is no reason (as yet) to dispute these numbers for any kingdom other than Dorne. But such reasons might well emerge as the series progresses.

 

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Given that King Torrhen came south with 30k, and every part of the 7 kingdoms saw an upswing in population under Targs ESPECIALLY after such a long summer, the North can definitely raise at least 40k. Hell White Harbour gets close to 8k itself...

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8 hours ago, Leonardo said:

Given that King Torrhen came south with 30k, and every part of the 7 kingdoms saw an upswing in population under Targs ESPECIALLY after such a long summer, the North can definitely raise at least 40k. Hell White Harbour gets close to 8k itself...

Just on this point. I am yet to see ANY other region's full strength being estimated as being the largest single host it has ever marched beyond its borders. Dorne is mentioned as raising 10k men many times, yet no one seriously considers Dorne's full strength to be 10k.

The West raised 35k in the War of the Five Kings, and marched it a short distance to the Riverlands, yet most are suggesting that the West having 50k men as its full potential.

The Reach raised 37k men on the Field of Fire, yet the general estimate of their strength is around 80-100k.

The largest Riverlands host we have seen is 11k men - and that was in their own borders - yet we know they can raise considerably more than that.

Yet for some reason the North is alone is held to have raised their maximum capacity when Torhenn raised 30k men. Not only did he raise them, but he marched them hundreds of miles beyond his own borders. Some of those troops would have marched 1500-2000 miles to get to the Trident.

I have always said, the North's strength - even in Torhenn's time - was way more than 30k. 30k was a massive host at the time, to logistically support over such distances. It was limited by logistics, not by available manpower.

 

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Hightowers were noticably Absent in field of fire And they own a kingdom of their own, possibly having more population than Dorne and maybe even Stormlands.

North of Torrhen's day probably was able to raise a lot more than 30K but not sure if the same applies to north of now. He had a strong NW protecting his borders and the new gift serving both as a secondary buffer zone and a population base with it's good land. Now North both lacks those buffers and the population from gift. Umbers were probably much more powerful before, now it is their lands that suffers the raids. Mountain clans also.

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9 hours ago, Leonardo said:

Given that King Torrhen came south with 30k, and every part of the 7 kingdoms saw an upswing in population under Targs ESPECIALLY after such a long summer,

Where is the evidence that every part of the realm had an upswing in population? We see that since the Targs came the North has actually lost the New Gift and that land has seen a sharp decrease in population. We know that the Targs brought peace to the realm but that has not changed the Norths population on its West coast, that is still low thanks to their historical problems with the Ironborn. We have seen no signs of recovery nor have we seen their borders population increase

It could be argued that being swallowed by the Targs may have had the opposite impact on the North. The smallfolk would now have an option in long winters, to starve and die in the North or to migrate to the South were the conditions are not near as bad. 

9 hours ago, Leonardo said:

 

the North can definitely raise at least 40k. Hell White Harbour gets close to 8k itself...

Why stop at 8k? If you are going to make up numbers that are clearly not supported by the text why not make it 16k? 

I have no idea how anyone can assume 8k based on the books that GRRM has written. He sends 1,500 with Robb, brings 300 to Winterfell when Roose summons him, sends a paltry 100 or so when Winterfel is captured and requires help, unable to beat the Boltons in the Hornwood lands. 

4k seems generous for the Manderlys, 8k seems a ridiculous notion. 

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2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is the evidence that every part of the realm had an upswing in population? We see that since the Targs came the North has actually lost the New Gift and that land has seen a sharp decrease in population. We know that the Targs brought peace to the realm but that has not changed the Norths population on its West coast, that is still low thanks to their historical problems with the Ironborn. We have seen no signs of recovery nor have we seen their borders population increase

It could be argued that being swallowed by the Targs may have had the opposite impact on the North. The smallfolk would now have an option in long winters, to starve and die in the North or to migrate to the South were the conditions are not near as bad. 

Why stop at 8k? If you are going to make up numbers that are clearly not supported by the text why not make it 16k? 

I have no idea how anyone can assume 8k based on the books that GRRM has written. He sends 1,500 with Robb, brings 300 to Winterfell when Roose summons him, sends a paltry 100 or so when Winterfel is captured and requires help, unable to beat the Boltons in the Hornwood lands. 

4k seems generous for the Manderlys, 8k seems a ridiculous notion. 

Mostly agree BUT he sends near 300 to Rodrik, Still has more heavy cavalry than anyone else and he may have beaten the Boltons for all we know because Roose asks him to give up claims on Castles in hornwood lands and they were able to find Donella

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On 12.3.2018 at 2:10 PM, Bernie Mac said:

It does not make the true either. 

I never said they were true. But I'm inclined to believe that the differences in strength given in those sources - i.e. the Reach at the top, the West second, etc. - are more or less accurate.

My point was never about how strong a given region actually is - it was simply about the fact that I think we have good reason to believe the Westerlands are stronger than the Riverlands. 

On 12.3.2018 at 2:10 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Do you think the North has a 45k army?

I don't think so, on the basis of the fact that King Torrhen had about a year to gather his full strength and only assembled an army of 30,000 men. And later there is no indication, either, that Robb assembled less than half the total strength of the North when he assembled his ~20,000 men.

On 12.3.2018 at 2:10 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Likely with Edmure at the battle of Riverrun.

This isn't likely if we don't know that Whent men went to war at all. Do we see any Whent men with Edmure, Cat, and Robb at Riverrun, ever? No, we don't.

On 12.3.2018 at 2:10 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Not sure what this has to do with my point?

Edmure called his banners, the Whents are likely to be even more supportive of the Tully's than the Darrys are. 

No, they aren't. Minisa Whent has been dead a long time ago, and Lord Walter Whent and his sons stood with Prince Rhaegar against Lord Hoster at the Trident.

On 12.3.2018 at 2:10 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Never claimed it was. 

Again, not sure your point. 

The point being that Raymun Darry being at Riverrun doesn't mean he came with his entire strength. Just as any lord being there might not have come with his entire strength. A guy with some men being at place X means just that - that he and some men are there. Not that all the man's men that could have been there actually were there.

On 12.3.2018 at 2:10 PM, Bernie Mac said:

He sent men to Rivverrun, the books can not be clearer. What do you think he sent his men to Riverrun for? Why do you think the smallfolk are calling him a coward for staying?

The point is just that we don't know how many men Mooton sent where. His town of Maidenpool wasn't in danger from the Lannisters. And he wasn't exactly the best friend of either Lord Hoster or his heir. Why should he have sent his entire strength to fight in the Tully war?

On 12.3.2018 at 2:10 PM, Bernie Mac said:

No one claims that Lord Balon sent men to the Crown, what is claimed is that he was neutral and kept his force at home. This is the opposite to the claims about Mooton, who sent men to Riverrun while he stayed at home like a coward. 

Lord Swann still supported King Joffrey, did he not? Just as Lord Selwyn supported Renly by sending him Brienne and some archers. Or just how Lord Estermont sent men to Joffrey and Renly both, being 'a careful friend' of all the Baratheon pretenders.

You can declare for someone and support him without actually committing all that many resources to this person or their cause.

On 12.3.2018 at 2:10 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Where is it said that she did not send many? She, out of fear, sent as many as she could get away with. 

That implies that she didn't send all that many. After all, unlike those Northmen who did send many she still has the strength to put down some Ironborn on Northern soil, unlike the Tallharts or Glovers who couldn't even defend their castles against the invaders.

On 12.3.2018 at 2:10 PM, Bernie Mac said:

There is no source in the books that she did not send many.

It is very much implied both by Lady Barbrey herself as well as by the fact that prominent Dustin (and Ryswell) men are nowhere to be seen in Robb's army.

On 12.3.2018 at 2:10 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Nor was Robb. Still called his banners and they still responded. 

Still, they did not send as many men as they might have send had Eddard Stark called his banners, no? Especially not, you know, Lady Dustin.

And, of course, Robb wasn't Edmure, was he?

But the point here simply is that Edmure didn't have any banners to raise because he simply didn't own any yet. Edmure may have raised the banners of Riverrun in the name of his dying father, Lord Hoster Tully, but not in his own name. He was just his father's heir at that point. And while the banners were first raised Lord Hoster was still conscious and able to influence things. He was the one who forced the young Riverlords to seek justice from the king in AGoT when Gregor first attacked the Riverlands, after all.

On 12.3.2018 at 2:41 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Martin stated at the time of the RPG endorsement that those numbers were roughly what a reasonably informed Westerosi (probably a lord) would BELIEVE each of the kingdoms can raise. As it turns out, for Dorne an in-universe reason was later provided in the books as to why the 50k belief was false. No such reasons have been provided for any other region as yet. (Either to show that the numbers were an over or under estimate, both of which are possible).

I'm not really sure that 50,000 Dornish warriors don't exist.

I doubt Dorne could assemble so many warriors to invade the Stormlands or the Reach, nor necessarily to fight a pitched battle in the mountains against an invading army, but the Young Dragon's book claims he fought 50,000 Dornishmen during his Conquest of Dorne. A war that continued on Dornish soil after it was 'officially won'. If you keep troops to keep it occupied then the pool of people from which freedom fighters, resistance fighters, partisans, etc. draw their support naturally grows larger than the pool from which a lord or prince draws the men he marches off to fight hundreds or thousands of miles away from their villages and homes.

Daeron's men didn't only have to fight against Dornish spear men on the battlefield, but also Dornish women, children, and old people in their villages and homes.

For that kind of warfare, 50,000 warriors may be actually too low an estimate. Still, those 50,000 people wouldn't be marching in a conventional Dornish army.

On a smaller scale you can compare it to the resistance the Winterfell folk shows to Theon after he has taken the castle. Many of that people are not likely to ever go to war, but they can fight back and kill invaders when they are attacked, especially if they use guile and betrayal to kill the enemy when they are not expecting it.

On 12.3.2018 at 2:41 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Hence, there is no reason (as yet) to dispute these numbers for any kingdom other than Dorne. But such reasons might well emerge as the series progresses.

Sure there is. It is a reason of principle. Only stuff in canonical works is part of the canon. If you talk to George today and he tells you something that's not canon, either. It is only canon if it is part of books published by George R.R. Martin. Anything else simply isn't part of the canon, never mind that it may or may not be correct (and stuff that isn't in the books certainly can be - and has been - revised).

41 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is the evidence that every part of the realm had an upswing in population? We see that since the Targs came the North has actually lost the New Gift and that land has seen a sharp decrease in population. We know that the Targs brought peace to the realm but that has not changed the Norths population on its West coast, that is still low thanks to their historical problems with the Ironborn. We have seen no signs of recovery nor have we seen their borders population increase

We have proof of that insofar as we know that the Targaryen rule put an end to the constant warfare in the Seven Kingdoms, which would have reduced the number of people being killed in war.

And if we talk about the North, there is no indication that there was any war up there from the Conquest until the troubles they faced with the Skagosi, Dagon Greyjoy, and then eventually Raymun Redbeard.

The Conqueror didn't kill any Northmen, during the reigns of Aenys and Maegor there was no war in the North, even the Dance saw nor war on Northern soil. And neither did any of the Blackfyre rebellions as far as we know.

Some Northmen left the North to fight in the Dance, but they did so because they wanted to die in battle. Because they did not want to cause trouble for their families in the coming winter.

Hard winters certainly could have culled all that growth again, especially during the two six-year-winters we know of. But the fact that the population would have slowly increased due to the end of war - especially during a period of mild winters - cannot really be doubted.

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I never said they were true. But I'm inclined to believe that the differences in strength given in those sources - i.e. the Reach at the top, the West second, etc. - are more or less accurate.

My point was never about how strong a given region actually is - it was simply about the fact that I think we have good reason to believe the Westerlands are stronger than the Riverlands. 

I don't think so, on the basis of the fact that King Torrhen had about a year to gather his full strength and only assembled an army of 30,000 men. And later there is no indication, either, that Robb assembled less than half the total strength of the North when he assembled his ~20,000 men.

This isn't likely if we don't know that Whent men went to war at all. Do we see any Whent men with Edmure, Cat, and Robb at Riverrun, ever? No, we don't.

No, they aren't. Minisa Whent has been dead a long time ago, and Lord Walter Whent and his sons stood with Prince Rhaegar against Lord Hoster at the Trident.

The point being that Raymun Darry being at Riverrun doesn't mean he came with his entire strength. Just as any lord being there might not have come with his entire strength. A guy with some men being at place X means just that - that he and some men are there. Not that all the man's men that could have been there actually were there.

The point is just that we don't know how many men Mooton sent where. His town of Maidenpool wasn't in danger from the Lannisters. And he wasn't exactly the best friend of either Lord Hoster or his heir. Why should he have sent his entire strength to fight in the Tully war?

Lord Swann still supported King Joffrey, did he not? Just as Lord Selwyn supported Renly by sending him Brienne and some archers. Or just how Lord Estermont sent men to Joffrey and Renly both, being 'a careful friend' of all the Baratheon pretenders.

You can declare for someone and support him without actually committing all that many resources to this person or their cause.

That implies that she didn't send all that many. After all, unlike those Northmen who did send many she still has the strength to put down some Ironborn on Northern soil, unlike the Tallharts or Glovers who couldn't even defend their castles against the invaders.

It is very much implied both by Lady Barbrey herself as well as by the fact that prominent Dustin (and Ryswell) men are nowhere to be seen in Robb's army.

Still, they did not send as many men as they might have send had Eddard Stark called his banners, no? Especially not, you know, Lady Dustin.

And, of course, Robb wasn't Edmure, was he?

But the point here simply is that Edmure didn't have any banners to raise because he simply didn't own any yet. Edmure may have raised the banners of Riverrun in the name of his dying father, Lord Hoster Tully, but not in his own name. He was just his father's heir at that point. And while the banners were first raised Lord Hoster was still conscious and able to influence things. He was the one who forced the young Riverlords to seek justice from the king in AGoT when Gregor first attacked the Riverlands, after all.

I'm not really sure that 50,000 Dornish warriors don't exist.

I doubt Dorne could assemble so many warriors to invade the Stormlands or the Reach, nor necessarily to fight a pitched battle in the mountains against an invading army, but the Young Dragon's book claims he fought 50,000 Dornishmen during his Conquest of Dorne. A war that continued on Dornish soil after it was 'officially won'. If you keep troops to keep it occupied then the pool of people from which freedom fighters, resistance fighters, partisans, etc. draw their support naturally grows larger than the pool from which a lord or prince draws the men he marches off to fight hundreds or thousands of miles away from their villages and homes.

Daeron's men didn't only have to fight against Dornish spear men on the battlefield, but also Dornish women, children, and old people in their villages and homes.

For that kind of warfare, 50,000 warriors may be actually too low an estimate. Still, those 50,000 people wouldn't be marching in a conventional Dornish army.

On a smaller scale you can compare it to the resistance the Winterfell folk shows to Theon after he has taken the castle. Many of that people are not likely to ever go to war, but they can fight back and kill invaders when they are attacked, especially if they use guile and betrayal to kill the enemy when they are not expecting it.

Sure there is. It is a reason of principle. Only stuff in canonical works is part of the canon. If you talk to George today and he tells you something that's not canon, either. It is only canon if it is part of books published by George R.R. Martin. Anything else simply isn't part of the canon, never mind that it may or may not be correct (and stuff that isn't in the books certainly can be - and has been - revised).

We have proof of that insofar as we know that the Targaryen rule put an end to the constant warfare in the Seven Kingdoms, which would have reduced the number of people being killed in war.

And if we talk about the North, there is no indication that there was any war up there from the Conquest until the troubles they faced with the Skagosi, Dagon Greyjoy, and then eventually Raymun Redbeard.

The Conqueror didn't kill any Northmen, during the reigns of Aenys and Maegor there was no war in the North, even the Dance saw nor war on Northern soil. And neither did any of the Blackfyre rebellions as far as we know.

Some Northmen left the North to fight in the Dance, but they did so because they wanted to die in battle. Because they did not want to cause trouble for their families in the coming winter.

Hard winters certainly could have culled all that growth again, especially during the two six-year-winters we know of. But the fact that the population would have slowly increased due to the end of war - especially during a period of mild winters - cannot really be doubted.

A few comments on the above.

First, regarding the bolded part. That's actually not what we were debating. I don't dispute that the Westerlands are stronger than the Riverlands. I dispute that they are more populated than the Riverlands. I think the West raises a much higher proportion of their population to war than the Riverlands, for reasons already stated at length. And that's why they are able to raise a larger army than the Riverlands. Not much larger, but slightly larger. But this does not mean that the West necessarily has more people than the Riverlands. Martin has already said that the Riverlands is hampered by a host of factors from utilizing their population in war.

As for Dorne. If you are counting all civilians then indeed 50k is way too low. The number should then be a few million.

Regarding the North. As has been pointed out before, Robb has to march with 12000 men after waiting a certain period of time, else his food would run out at Winterfell. So added time does not keep increasing a Northern host size. In fact, it starts decreasing it after a point, as you either have to march or see your host bleed away due to lack of food in one location. A host gathered at Moat Cailin would have even more of a challenge than one gathered at Winterfell.

55k was the largest host raised in Westerosi history at that point, and it took two powerful kingdoms combined to achieve that. So 30k from a single kingdom - especially one with the geographical challenges of the North - would have been a very impressive achievement in those days. Irrespective of population size.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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17 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

A few comments on the above.

First, regarding the bolded part. That's actually not what we were debating. I don't dispute that the Westerlands are stronger than the Riverlands. I dispute that they are more populated than the Riverlands. I think the West raises a much higher proportion of their population to war than the Riverlands, for reasons already stated at length. And that's why they are able to raise a larger army than the Riverlands. Not much larger, but slightly larger. But this does not mean that the West necessarily has more people than the Riverlands. Martin has already said that the Riverlands is hampered by a host of factors from utilizing their population in war.

But those are contingent factors. The West under Tytos would have been much weaker than under Tywin. Just as the Riverlands under the strong Mudd or Justman kings would have had much more authority than the Tullys of today.

That the Riverlands were also crippled by the ineffectiveness of their leaders during the War of the Five Kings is also pretty clear.

17 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

As for Dorne. If you are counting all civilians then indeed 50k is way too low. The number should then be a few million.

I didn't say I count all the civilians. Only those willing to risk their lives fighting against the Targaryen and Tyrell oppressors. Those would have been more than the able-bodied men the average lord drafted into his army but still significantly less than the entire Dornish population - many of which may have accepted the Conquest while others simply were not willing to risk their lives by actively joining the resistance fighters.

The people I count would be determined villagers who rose up in rebellion against the Targaryen garrison of a castle who never before or again would be part of any organized army. The brotherhood in the Riverlands likely has many members who never fought in a proper army, too. Yet now they are experienced and dangerous warriors and killers.

17 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Regarding the North. As has been pointed out before, Robb has to march with 12000 men after waiting a certain period of time, else his food would run out at Winterfell. So added time does not keep increasing a Northern host size. In fact, it starts decreasing it after a point, as you either have to march or see your host bleed away due to lack of food in one location. A host gathered at Moat Cailin would have even more of a challenge than one gathered at Winterfell.

That isn't really relevant since nobody ever talked about an army being assembled at Winterfell. Torrhen's army could have assembled at multiple points in the North like Winterfell, Barrowton, and White Harbor only to unite at Moat Cailin (or perhaps even only in the Riverlands). During the Dance, there were multiple waves of Northmen assembling at those locations, too. Roderick Dustin had assembled his own army at Barrowton, the Manderlys their own forces at White Harbor (who likely joined Rhaenyra's forces by ship), and in the end Lord Cregan came with his own army which he assembled at Winterfell.

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21 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But those are contingent factors. The West under Tytos would have been much weaker than under Tywin. Just as the Riverlands under the strong Mudd or Justman kings would have had much more authority than the Tullys of today.

That the Riverlands were also crippled by the ineffectiveness of their leaders during the War of the Five Kings is also pretty clear.

I didn't say I count all the civilians. Only those willing to risk their lives fighting against the Targaryen and Tyrell oppressors. Those would have been more than the able-bodied men the average lord drafted into his army but still significantly less than the entire Dornish population - many of which may have accepted the Conquest while others simply were not willing to risk their lives by actively joining the resistance fighters.

The people I count would be determined villagers who rose up in rebellion against the Targaryen garrison of a castle who never before or again would be part of any organized army. The brotherhood in the Riverlands likely has many members who never fought in a proper army, too. Yet now they are experienced and dangerous warriors and killers.

That isn't really relevant since nobody ever talked about an army being assembled at Winterfell. Torrhen's army could have assembled at multiple points in the North like Winterfell, Barrowton, and White Harbor only to unite at Moat Cailin (or perhaps even only in the Riverlands). During the Dance, there were multiple waves of Northmen assembling at those locations, too. Roderick Dustin had assembled his own army at Barrowton, the Manderlys their own forces at White Harbor (who likely joined Rhaenyra's forces by ship), and in the end Lord Cregan came with his own army which he assembled at Winterfell.

Winterfell was an example. The point is even more pertinent at Moat Cailin, which has even less resources available to support an army. In fact, Robb states as much when he is at Moat Cailin too. Namely that the land cannot support his host of 20k men.

Torhenn is stated to have led an army of 30,000 Northmen down the Neck. It makes no strategic sense to hasten to meet a powerful enemy with your host in bits and pieces as you leave the security of Moat Cailin. So the host would have gathered at Moat Cailin first. And like Robb states when the Karstarks arrive at Winterfell, he had to march at that point, even if there were more men on the way, as his food was running out.

The same would apply at Moat Cailin. Men would have come from all across the North. Arriving at widely separate intervals. And while the last ones are still marching, the first ones would be eating the countryside bare. And who is to say that the time Torhenn chose for his bannermen to arrive would coincide with the enemy being in the Riverlands? So whatever time Torhenn chose, whether 6 months, 9 months, 12 months, the logistics of gathering an army in the North would not give him the luxury of perfect timing.

Too soon, and not enough men would have arrived. Too late, and he would start losing men again due to lack of supplies or lack of interest. So once he had a sizeable host, and the enemy was more or less in position, he would have to march.

I'm sorry, but it is never stated that Torhenn drained the North of men in order to gather the 30k. Just that he gathered a large host of 30k and marched down the Neck with it. Large by all of Westeros's standards, mind you. By the standards of the historian who wrote it down. So 30k was a big host for the time. No larger host raised by a single kingdom is actually mentioned before that point in history. Other than the Reach raising 37k as part of the Field of Fire army.

I'm not claiming this signifies that the North has a specific number of men. I'm arguing that this does not tell us the upper limit of the North's strength. Just its lower limit. Which has to be 30k, as 30k was noted to exist.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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Butting in here to mention House Redwyne in response to the OP and the quote about the Hightowers.

Paxter Redwyne apparently owns 200 warships, plus he has the capability to press into service five times as many civilian ships. The warships alone would easily mean 10,000 fighting men. I'm not sure though if the Arbor and smaller adjacent islands can produce that population. I'm thinking the Redwynes have to rely heavily on sellswords to crew their ships, or have a portion of their fleet sitting unused. I don't know that the Redwynes hold sway over any piece of continental land.

But that brings me to the quote about the Hightowers being able to raise three times as many swords as any other house in the Reach. I don't think this includes the Redwynes. Maybe at some point in the past, but not at the time of the War of the Kings.

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5 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Butting in here to mention House Redwyne in response to the OP and the quote about the Hightowers.

Paxter Redwyne apparently owns 200 warships, plus he has the capability to press into service five times as many civilian ships. The warships alone would easily mean 10,000 fighting men. I'm not sure though if the Arbor and smaller adjacent islands can produce that population. I'm thinking the Redwynes have to rely heavily on sellswords to crew their ships, or have a portion of their fleet sitting unused. I don't know that the Redwynes hold sway over any piece of continental land.

But that brings me to the quote about the Hightowers being able to raise three times as many swords as any other house in the Reach. I don't think this includes the Redwynes. Maybe at some point in the past, but not at the time of the War of the Kings.

Yes, that is an interesting issue. There is no way that the Hightowers can raise 30k men. It would just not fit with the general world building. The Crownlands as a whole can raise maybe half that number, and they have a larger city and surely more land than the Hightowers control on their own. So I think 15k is the highest possible number for House Hightower.

Meaning that the next most powerful Reach lord must be at around 5000. Maybe 6000 if you take the "three times" quote as a bit of an exaggeration. So if that includes the Redwynne's, then 5000, maybe 6000, must be their maximum strenth. Which seems a bit strange, given the size of their navy. But I would assume that when the Redwynne fleet of 200 warships sets sail, it does so with troops from the entire Reach on it, rather than just House Redwynne soldiers. That would be the only way to achieve consistency between the quotes.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I never said they were true. But I'm inclined to believe that the differences in strength given in those sources - i.e. the Reach at the top, the West second, etc. - are more or less accurate.

My point was never about how strong a given region actually is - it was simply about the fact that I think we have good reason to believe the Westerlands are stronger than the Riverlands. 

I don't think there is anything controversial about thinking that. Both financially and military they seem to be much stronger than the Riverlands. 

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I don't think so, on the basis of the fact that King Torrhen had about a year to gather his full strength and only assembled an army of 30,000 men. And later there is no indication, either, that Robb assembled less than half the total strength of the North when he assembled his ~20,000 men.

Exactly my point. We know the Dornish figure are wrong, everything we have seen in the series indicates the Northern figures are wrong so why would you be using that as a source for the Riverlands military?

GRRM wanted people to enjoy the game, which is going to be hard to do if the Reach and Westerlands together outnumber all the other factions in the game. 

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This isn't likely if we don't know that Whent men went to war at all. Do we see any Whent men with Edmure, Cat, and Robb at Riverrun, ever? No, we don't.

We don't see any Mooten men either, but from what we learn in the books they certainly sent men. We also don't see any Ryswell or Dustin men in the war but GRRM seems to indicate that they were there, as Lady Dustin is certain of it.  

GRRM::No, there are still Dustins and Ryswells in the north, and maybe even in Robb's army. I mean, he had twenty thousand guys or near about when he marched south, I couldn't characterize them all. I have always figured that there are =dozens= of minor lords and =hundreds= of knights and such in all these armies. Simply because someone isn't mentioned doesn't mean they are not there.

The books state that Edmure called his banners and that afterwards the Whent lands did not have enough men to defend itself. Seems pretty straightforward. Just because we don't see the Riverarmy in the same detail we see the Northern army does not mean that they are not there. 

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No, they aren't. Minisa Whent has been dead a long time ago, and Lord Walter Whent and his sons stood with Prince Rhaegar against Lord Hoster at the Trident.

That is never mentioned in the books. We have no idea which side Walter Whent fought on. I think you are mistaking your own headcannon for fact. 

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The point being that Raymun Darry being at Riverrun doesn't mean he came with his entire strength. Just as any lord being there might not have come with his entire strength. A guy with some men being at place X means just that - that he and some men are there. Not that all the man's men that could have been there actually were there.

Not once this exchange of ours have I claimed that every Riverlord came with their 'entire strength'. I stated sent men, you are arguing against  a point that has not been made. 

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The point is just that we don't know how many men Mooton sent where. His town of Maidenpool wasn't in danger from the Lannisters. And he wasn't exactly the best friend of either Lord Hoster or his heir. Why should he have sent his entire strength to fight in the Tully war?

No one claimed 'his entire strength' was sent. You claimed that he sent no one and I corrected you on the matter as the books quite clearly state that he did indeed send men to the detriment of his own defences. 

Honestly, trying to change the argument rather than concede that you were wrong is a pretty tiresome strategy. 

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Lord Swann still supported King Joffrey, did he not?

No, the books are clear on this matter. 

The Swanns were Marcher lords, proud, powerful, and cautious. Pleading illness, Lord Gulian Swann had remained in his castle, taking no part in the war, but his eldest son had ridden with Renly and now Stannis, while Balon, the younger, served at King's Landing. If he'd had a third son, Tyrion suspected he'd be off with Robb Stark.

During the War the Swann's were neutral, I'm not sure how clearer GRRM could have been on the matter. Just because one of his sons did does not mean he did, after all Royce did not support Renly as King despite one of his sons serving in his Kingsguard. 

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Just as Lord Selwyn supported Renly by sending him Brienne and some archers.

Yup. That is support. I'm not sure your point on this one?

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Or just how Lord Estermont sent men to Joffrey and Renly both, being 'a careful friend' of all the Baratheon pretenders.

eh? Why have you added an apostrophe to 'careful friend'? That is never implied in the books. When Renly was alive the Estermont's were with him, no one else. 

"An angry clamor went up from the king's men. He is not far wrong, Davos thought. Only a short time before, the Fossoways, Guyard Morrigen, and the Lords Caron, Varner, Errol, and Estermont had all belonged to Renly."

When Renly is killed the put their entire support behind Stannis and when Stannis is defeated Lord Estermont sides with Joffrey.  

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You can declare for someone and support him without actually committing all that many resources to this person or their cause.

Sure. Never once have I stated a contrary argument to this. 

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That implies that she didn't send all that many.

No, it does not. The words are very clear. 

Barrowton sent men with the Young Wolf as well. I gave him as few men as I dared, but I knew that I must needs give him some or risk the wroth of Winterfell. So I had my own eyes and ears in that host.

That is no indication how many she sent, just that she kept as many men back as she felt she could get away with. 

Given the Northern army adds around 6k from the two Flint Houses, Ryswell, Dustin it seems Lady Dustin sent a decent amount of men in line with the amounts sent by the average Lord of the North. 

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After all, unlike those Northmen who did send many she still has the strength to put down some Ironborn on Northern soil, unlike the Tallharts or Glovers who couldn't even defend their castles against the invaders.

Not sure what this has to do with my point?

 

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It is very much implied both by Lady Barbrey herself as well as by the fact that prominent Dustin (and Ryswell) men are nowhere to be seen in Robb's army.

GRRM covers this. He just does not have the time or inclination to mention every single soldier or write about the exact numbers of every House in the army. 

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Still, they did not send as many men as they might have send had Eddard Stark called his banners, no? Especially not, you know, Lady Dustin.

Where is that mentioned?

 

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But the point here simply is that Edmure didn't have any banners to raise because he simply didn't own any yet.

He was the heir. Like Tywin and Robb both being able to raise banners before they were Lords so could Eddard. 

Why does Piper and Dary state that Edmure called the Tully banners if he had none to call?

What does Cat mean by this?

"Late again," Catelyn murmured when she heard. It was the Trident all over, damn the man. Her brother Edmure had called the banners; by rights, Lord Frey should have gone to join the Tully host at Riverrun, yet here he sat.

Or Ned here?

The west had been a tinderbox since Catelyn had seized Tyrion Lannister. Both Riverrun and Casterly Rock had called their banners, and armies were massing 

What is your point here? Why are you ignoring all the actual evidence?

 

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Edmure may have raised the banners of Riverrun in the name of his dying father, Lord Hoster Tully, but not in his own name. He was just his father's heir at that point. And while the banners were first raised Lord Hoster was still conscious and able to influence things. He was the one who forced the young Riverlords to seek justice from the king in AGoT when Gregor first attacked the Riverlands, after all.

eh? What the fuck dude. This was your entire argument, that I used his instead of 'the'. Well thanks for wasting both of our times by being unable to grasp the obvious. 

Edmure called his father's banners. How does that change your overall point that the Mootons sent no men and that other Riverlords also ignored it?

 

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We have proof of that insofar as we know that the Targaryen rule put an end to the constant warfare in the Seven Kingdoms, which would have reduced the number of people being killed in war.

And if we talk about the North, there is no indication that there was any war up there from the Conquest until the troubles they faced with the Skagosi, Dagon Greyjoy, and then eventually Raymun Redbeard.

Yeah, you are wrong about this. GRRM talks of pretty much constant conflict in the North in the last century at least

GRRM: It's also true that there are many more Lannisters. It also has to be taken into consideration that the North has had frequent revolts and other such problems, that there have been rebel lords in the past, that they've dealt with the Kings-beyond-the-Wall, and the revolt of Skagos, and everything else that's occured in the last hundred years. All of these things are a reason for why there aren't so many Starks in the present as there were in the past.

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The Conqueror didn't kill any Northmen, during the reigns of Aenys and Maegor there was no war in the North, even the Dance saw nor war on Northern soil. And neither did any of the Blackfyre rebellions as far as we know.

How much war was there in the North in the three centuries before Aegon conquered the realm? 

 

 

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"When thinking about her father Hoster Tully's most important bannermen, Catelyn Stark reflects that Lady Shella Whent, the last of her line, is dwelling with her ghosts in the cavernous vaults of Harrenhal."

 

House Whent should field huge numbers, Harrenhal lords over all the land around the gods eye.

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