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Varysblackfyre321

Is Rickon going to be King/the next warden?

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In the show, they solve this problem by having him just being handed over to Ramsey to be slaughtered and have Bran arrive after Jon's coronation. But, in the books, Rickon appears(at least for the time being), to be in safe hands. Bran can't sire anymore sons so I think in this instance, people wouldn't mind if it skipped  over to Rickon. If so what of Jon? He's been named Robb's heir.

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41 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In the show, they solve this problem by having him just being handed over to Ramsey to be slaughtered and have Bran arrive after Jon's coronation. But, in the books, Rickon appears(at least for the time being), to be in safe hands. Bran can't sire anymore sons so I think in this instance, people wouldn't mind if it skipped  over to Rickon. If so what of Jon? He's been named Robb's heir.

The truth is Jon cannot really be King in the North once his true identity is revealed. Because then all of Eddard's living children should rank above him in the line of succession. So either Jon will be King in the North for a very short period, until Rickon arrives, or Jon will not become King in the North, but will instead be regent for Rickon in the upcoming War.

Then, when his true identity is revealed, he becomes King on the Iron Throne.

If Rickon dies, then Bran still ranks ahead of Jon, as do Sansa and Arya. In each case, I can see him acting as defacto leader until the war is over, but not inheriting Winterfell in the long run.

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@Free Northman Reborn

Rickon  will be the kid in the North. I don't think Northerners would care much about proper succession at this point. They need a Stark and Jon is the best candidate there is; Male, decent fighter, loved and respected by many(not all) of his brothers, chosen for Old Bear to be his successor, became LC at a very young age and in the most difficult situation for NW in perhaps thousands of years, repelled Wildling Invasion with limited sources, managed a peaceful solution to Wildling problem... If he turns out to be Lyanna's son, then all the better as Lyanna was the person they went out to war for or should have done so in the first place. He is an Expendable Lord of Winterfell as well; if a time comes that they aren't in the hard situation they are in now, with Iron Throne and White Walkers are no more a threat for the North and Jon doesn't suit their needs, they can simply ask him to abdicate in favor of Rickon or else, since he was a sworn brother and the lord commander of NW and he arguably deserted his post and interfered with realm politics by aiding Stannis.

 

In all honesty, "Watch doesn't take parts" is just a load of rubbish, especially for Northerners. It's mostly them who keep the Watch running and also them who benefits most from it, I doubt any Northern Lords, especially Lord of Winterfell, whether King in da Norf or Warden, would say no to Watch interference if it aids them and this is shown with Mountain Clansmen aiding Stannis, who was a relief aid in all but name, sent to them by Jon. They also bring two wetnurses for little monster, Jon's foster child and noble guests for Alys' wedding, which Jon arrenged as the patriarch/lord of house (Kar)Stark and the North. I think Jon is any northern lords Watch dreams come true.

 

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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14 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Rickon  will be the kid in the North. I don't think Northerners would care much about proper succession at this point. They need a Stark and Jon is the best candidate there is; Male, decent fighter, loved and respected by many(not all) of his brothers, chosen for Old Bear to be his successor, became LC at a very young age and in the most difficult situation for NW in perhaps thousands of years, repelled Wildling Invasion with limited sources, managed a peaceful solution to Wildling problem... If he turns out to be Lyanna's son, then all the better as Lyanna was the person they went out to war for or should have done so in the first place. He is an Expendable Lord of Winterfell as well; if a time comes that they aren't in the hard situation they are in now, with Iron Throne and White Walkers are no more a threat for the North and Jon doesn't suit their needs, they can simply ask him to abdicate in favor of Rickon or else, since he was a sworn brother and the lord commander of NW and he arguably deserted his post and interfered with realm politics by aiding Stannis.

 

In all honesty, "Watch doesn't take parts" is just a load of rubbish, especially for Northerners. It's mostly them who keep the Watch running and also them who benefits most from it, I doubt any Northern Lords, especially Lord of Winterfell, whether King in da Norf or Warden, would say no to Watch interference if it aids them and this is shown with Mountain Clansmen aiding Stannis, who was a relief aid in all but name, sent to them by Jon. They also bring two wetnurses for little monster, Jon's foster child and noble guests for Alys' wedding, which Jon arrenged as the patriarch/lord of house (Kar)Stark and the North. I think Jon is any northern lords Watch dreams come true.

 

Come on Corvo. Simple question: Do you really see Jon taking Winterfell from any of his siblings? Even if Robb's will names him heir?

Seriously. Do you? That's why I say, even if he becomes King in the North, it will only be until one of his former siblings arrives, at which point he will become "defacto ruler" on their behalf, until such time as the war is over.

There is no way Jon will rob any of them of their birthright.

Edited by Free Northman Reborn

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3 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Come on Corvo. Simple question: Do you really see Jon taking Winterfell from any of his siblings? Even if Robb's will names him heir?

Seriously. Do you? That's why I say, even if he becomes King in the North, it will only be until one of his former siblings arrives, at which point he will become "defacto ruler" on their behalf, until such time as the war is over.

There is no way Jon will rob any of them of their birthright.

Read again. I didn't say it is Jon's wish to replace his "siblings". With no children of Eddard Stark currently available (fArya reveal), Jon will take Winterfell and Northern lords would rejoice because he's the kind of leader they need. If/when Rickon comes he may or may not step down with the current dangers. I believe he'll step down willingly when all is safe but even if he doesn't, lords of the North can take him down with just cause.

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8 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Read again. I didn't say it is Jon's wish to replace his "siblings". With no children of Eddard Stark currently available (fArya reveal), Jon will take Winterfell and Northern lords would rejoice because he's the kind of leader they need. If/when Rickon comes he may or may not step down with the current dangers. I believe he'll step down willingly when all is safe but even if he doesn't, lords of the North can take him down with just cause.

Well I'm confused. You then seem to be saying that Jon will become King in the North, but only temporarily, until one of his siblings arrives.

Which is exactly what I said, so I guess we agree then.

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2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Rickon  will be the kid in the North. I don't think Northerners would care much about proper succession at this point. They need a Stark and Jon is the best candidate there is; Male, decent fighter, loved and respected by many(not all) of his brothers, He's also hated by a lot of them as well for his policies concerning the wildlings.chosen for Old Bear to be his successor,Mormont's approval is a plus. became LC at a very young age and in the most difficult situation for NW in perhaps thousands of years, repelled Wildling Invasion with limited sources, managed a peaceful solution to Wildling problem... The free folk have been the the monsters parents would tell their children should fear due to them pillaging and raping them for thousands of years. Allowing them in (even specifically on watch land at most for the time being), would be seen as a detraction by the lords of the north. Especially of stories of Jon having given his blessing to a "savage" the hand of a daughter of one of the most prestigious houses in the north. If he turns out to be Lyanna's son, then all the better as Lyanna was the person they went out to war for or should have done so in the first place. He's also Rheagar's son. They went to war because Mad Aerys had unjustly executed Rickard and Brandon Stark and was aiming for the stark heir because Lord stark and his heir had dare to ask for justice for his sons kidnapping Lyanna. If this story is found out Lyanna angelic vestige is gone, she's forever the whore(never mind Robert's cheating because he has a dick so him fuckin any pretty woman in sight is fine),who got thousands if people killed because she had to ride a dragon.  He is an Expendable Lord of Winter fell as well; if a time comes that they aren't in the hard situation they are in now, with Iron Throne and White Walkers are no more a threat for the North and Jon doesn't suit their needs, they can simply ask him to abdicate in favor of Rickon or else 

, since he was a sworn brother and the lord commander of NW and he arguably deserted his post and interfered with realm politics by aiding Stannis.

 How could they justify crowning him having already known that?

In all honesty, "Watch doesn't take parts" is just a load of rubbish, especially for Northerners. It's mostly them who keep the Watch running and also them who benefits most from it, I doubt any Northern Lords, especially Lord of Winterfell, whether King in da Norf or Warden, would say no to Watch interference if it aids them and this is shown with Mountain Clansmen aiding Stannis, who was a relief aid in all but name, sent to them by Jon. That was highly unorthodox.  also bring two wetnurses for little monster, Jon's foster child and noble guests for Alys' wedding, which Jon arrenged as the patriarch/lord of house (Kar)Stark and the North. I think Jon is any northern lords Watch dreams come true.

 

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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I think I agree with the idea of Jon refusing to abdicate if he felt he really did need the position. I wonder who Jon would marry. Last time they had a king, Robb sadly died before an heir was born to him. I'm sure thered be immense pressure for Jon to marry and sire an heir immeditely

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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6 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Read again. I didn't say it is Jon's wish to replace his "siblings". With no children of Eddard Stark currently available (fArya reveal), Jon will take Winterfell and Northern lords would rejoice because he's the kind of leader they need. If/when Rickon comes he may or may not step down with the current dangers. I believe he'll step down willingly when all is safe but even if he doesn't, lords of the North can take him down with just cause.

Catelyn would never allow Jon to get close to being part of the family.

So if Rickon becomes King in the North, who will be his consort?

And when I hear King in the North, I keep thinking:

”King in the North! King in the North! King in the North! Here comes the King in the North! King in the North! King in the North! Here comes the King in the North!” Etc...

 

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4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Catelyn would never allow Jon to get close to being part of the family.

So if Rickon becomes King in the North, who will be his consort?

And when I hear King in the North, I keep thinking:

”King in the North! King in the North! King in the North! Here comes the King in the North! King in the North! King in the North! Here comes the King in the North!” Etc...

 

Catelyn is dead. Though I do wonder what  LSH is going to do with Jon 

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12 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Well I'm confused. You then seem to be saying that Jon will become King in the North, but only temporarily, until one of his siblings arrives.

Which is exactly what I said, so I guess we agree then.

Yes, but no. Because we don't know whether any of his siblings arrive any time soon and even if they did, well there's a saying where I live  "you don't change horses while crossing a river; in the current turmoil of the North Jon won't step down, even if he wanted to his vassals won't accept this and I doubt he'll want it at all because him, a strong leader figure, stepping down will throw everything into chaos.

After there's peace, I believe he'll willingly step down. If he doesn't because of a reason such as his replacement will be open to manipulation, Northern Lords can as easily take him down as they put him there in the first place.

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On 12/22/2017 at 2:40 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Catelyn is dead. Though I do wonder what  LSH is going to do with Jon 

Catelyn consented for Jon to become Robb’s heir. Also even though LSH has become much more unforgiving and merciless (stone-hearted) than Catelyn was she still does everything for revenge for her children, and wouldn’t dare to interfere with one of Robb’s last will, even if she always hated Jon and his presence in her family.

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Nope. Rickon has been eaten by cannibals in order for him to ascend to their throne as a god-king. Davos will follow the trail of Rickon being their king leading their army, only to learn at the end of his journey through Skagos that Rickon is dead.

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On 12/22/2017 at 7:40 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Catelyn is dead. Though I do wonder what  LSH is going to do with Jon 

Okay, will comment on this post more thoroughly after I have read it all but, for now, either nothing and they will not come into each other's radars or she will redeem herself before her final death and tell him about Robb's will...

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Okay, now I have read the post.  Well, to me it seems that Wyman Manderley is going to be important on this one.  Surely, he could be keen on the Starks ruling the North once again and anti-Bolton now, still wouldn't it be even better if he married Rickon, once found and safe, to one of his grand-daughters?  To me, this is undoubtedly the plan.  Still, I got the gut feeling (albeit not tones of text to substantiate it, but I personally sometimes feel that for all the foreshadowing that we have seen sometimes one has to take the narrative a bit more globally and think of what would make a good story or something of that ilk) that something is going to go very wrong there.  Maybe other houses feel they should be the ones marrying into a Stark etc, maybe whatever happens after Stannis-v- Boltons will come into play.  Not sure, of course, but I think this kid ends up dead because of some plot gone wrong.  Okay, confession, personally I am not overly fond of characters we know little or nothing about taking the top places, so I am admittedly bias but there you have it.

The other contenders:  Bran, who is not interested in the position, I think... as his role seems to be rather different as chief greenseer or whatever.  Still, yes, Ned said he could not father children.  Ned was not a maester and maybe he just thought he would become difficult to marry off.  In the same book (GOT) both him and Dany were deemed infertile by "unqualified" sources.  Even then and before I ever got my hands on the series, this spelled "red herring" to me.  Could be wrong, as always but very suspicious on both counts.  Now, even if Bran has a child, he is not a political figure. He did a decent job in Robb's absence as a child as Lord and hearing law suits etc but that is not his interest, so if he ended up with WF maybe he would appoint someone to take the more mundane lordly duties off his hands till child is of age, say.

Jon as a regent for a time is a more or less given.  He has the skills and can be charismatic.  I know he had help but he won the LC election.  He attracts loyalty and disloyalty in equal measures but Rickon is a child, last we saw him pretty restless and potentially unmanageable and, unless I had a daughter to marry him, not sure I would want him as my liege Lord just now.  A regent is certainly needed.

Now, I get the feeling that Jon will have bigger fish to fry that WF.  He is likely to lead the war against the Others for one, also the IT is a possibility for him, whether he wants it or he feels he is the best option...  If he survives...

This leads us to Sansa, as LF, who is not fool has acknowledged.  She is currently married to a Lannister renegade but Lannister who could inherit if things go wrong for Cersei and Jaime dies without issue, or by virtue of being KG still cannot pass his potential title down the line.  Invalid as the wedding would be if Tyrion is still around, she is headed for potentially marrying either Robin or Harry (whichever is Lord of the Vale).  So, she is the most likely, apart from Bran to produce an heir of WF (and Jon yes, he has his complexities in parentage alone and I think has a bigger role to play).  I think it is not impossible that Sansa gives any of these 3 men (bet on Tyrion) two children; one for daddy's castle, one for Winterfell

Rickon will be important in the story, I think... in terms of showing us more Northern politics before the big storm but I think several houses will covet him for their daughters and that that will end up badly.  I said before that I would find it totally unsatisfying if a character we had only a few lines on ended with WF.  Okay, you could argue I am proposing children of say, Sansa/Tyrion; Sansa/Robin; Sansa/Harry but then the regent would have to be in place for longer and that would give our main characters (Sansa?) a huge role in the re-building process after the Long Night.

Still I think Rickon and his companions: Osha even Davos may bring something useful to the war against the death which would be satisfying.

Sorry to put a damper on this, or try to lol, but I cannot see Rickon's role in the story beyond getting Manderley screwed indirectly or something.  I could well be wrong but I feel all major players at the end of the series either have been POV or very closely introduced by a POV.  Giving the North or Winterfell to Rickon may satisfy some loyal Northern Lords but, to me, it would be like in, an Agatha Christie novel, for example, when you had 12 suspects, all with motives, and the murderer turned out to be the postman (never introduced much) say...  He has the family name, yes, but to me, it it pans out for more than a temporary period, that George is just pulled out the dice or something and Rickon came on top lol and I don't believe for a moment that George would do that.

Edited by Morgana Lannister

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All we really know at the moment is that Rickon has spent the last few years living on Skagos, and now Davos is going to retrieve him. Rickon was always (at least in my opinion) the wildest of the current generation of Stark children, and that was before his life went to shit. Now he has spent years being raised by a wildling, in one of the most dangerous 'survival of the fittest' places in Westeros, plus he has more then likely been spending years warging into Shaggydog, which in turn would have made him even more wolf like. He was what, 3 or 4 years old when he left with Osha? There is a chance he doesn't even remember his family anymore, let alone his Stark heritage. My point here is if Rickon does get brought back by Davos, he is going to be the very definition of an unfit ruler. He is going to be more wildling then most of the wildlings. 

I don't think the Northern Lords will really have much time to pick a new Warden/King in the North, since the Others are going to be attacking soon. So I'd say they are smart enough to follow the person who knows the most about them, Jon Snow. 

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On ‎7‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 6:19 PM, EloImFizzy said:

All we really know at the moment is that Rickon has spent the last few years living on Skagos, and now Davos is going to retrieve him. Rickon was always (at least in my opinion) the wildest of the current generation of Stark children, and that was before his life went to shit. Now he has spent years being raised by a wildling, in one of the most dangerous 'survival of the fittest' places in Westeros, plus he has more then likely been spending years warging into Shaggydog, which in turn would have made him even more wolf like. He was what, 3 or 4 years old when he left with Osha? There is a chance he doesn't even remember his family anymore, let alone his Stark heritage. My point here is if Rickon does get brought back by Davos, he is going to be the very definition of an unfit ruler. He is going to be more wildling then most of the wildlings. 

I don't think the Northern Lords will really have much time to pick a new Warden/King in the North, since the Others are going to be attacking soon. So I'd say they are smart enough to follow the person who knows the most about them, Jon Snow. 

If there's one thing that I have learned (especially in modern America), it is that people will always make time for political debates and power plays and personal vendettas. Always.

I can see the books doing something similar to the show on this.

  • Jon = King in the North
  • Rickon = Lord of Winterfell, Prince of the North
  • Sansa = Lady of the Eyrie, Princess of the North

As for who will become Rickon's regent? That's going to be a fight...an ugly one. What with Littlefinger, Sansa's husband, the Skagosi, the Free Folk, the northern lords (looking at Wyman Manderly and Barbrey Dustin!!!) and the Vale lords involved?

Jon's going to be the one dealing with the war with the Others, security and the politics with people down south (i.e. Aegon, Daenerys). Sansa is going to have to be the one to deal with the politics within Winterfell and the North as well as other not-so-exciting-but-still-very-important things like making sure everyone is fed, clothed, well-rested and relatively happy. Bran - when he gets there - is going to turn the godswood into his version of the Cave of the Three-Eyed Crow, solving ancient mysteries and doing magical stuff.

Arya - when she gets there - will probably introduce a lot of drama and madness into Winterfell. Simply because she'll be a frighteningly borderline savage and won't be tolerating any of the political bull____. The Faceless Men might also be chasing her so...

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Funny thing is: Rickon is the only one left. 

Jon is the chosen succesor for Robb, but when his heritage is revealed, Rickon will outrank him. 

Because of her wedding with Tyrion Sansa is disinherited. Same with Arya, since Robb didn't knew if the Lannisters had her or not (It seems like people forget or overlook this). 

Bran is crippled and cannot have children and even if he can, he might choose too become the Three Eyed Raven and stay Beyond the Wall. 

Edited by nickdt

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17 hours ago, nickdt said:

with Tyrion Sansa is disinherited. Same with Arya, since Robb didn't knew if the Lannisters had her or not (It seems like people forget or overlook this). 

Rob never thinks Arya is with the Lannisters. He says she's missing and presumably dead. He tells Cat that that Arya is dead. But fast-forward a bit to the scene where Rob reads out his Will in front of his witnesses and you see Arya is no longer included in the names of his dead siblings. Seems rather purposely ambiguous to me. 

Edited by a black swan

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On 12/21/2017 at 10:24 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In the show, they solve this problem by having him just being handed over to Ramsey to be slaughtered and have Bran arrive after Jon's coronation. But, in the books, Rickon appears(at least for the time being), to be in safe hands. Bran can't sire anymore sons so I think in this instance, people wouldn't mind if it skipped  over to Rickon. If so what of Jon? He's been named Robb's heir.

Pause. Who says that Bran can't sire children?

He doesn't necessarily ned to have feeling in his lower body in order to get an erection and ejaculate. It won't feel good so he'll be missing out on the best part of the process but...hey. It might still work. It just depends on the extent of his back injury. I do know he can still sit up straight.

On 12/21/2017 at 2:52 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

@Free Northman Reborn

Rickon  will be the kid in the North. I don't think Northerners would care much about proper succession at this point. They need a Stark and Jon is the best candidate there is; Male, decent fighter, loved and respected by many(not all) of his brothers, chosen for Old Bear to be his successor, became LC at a very young age and in the most difficult situation for NW in perhaps thousands of years, repelled Wildling Invasion with limited sources, managed a peaceful solution to Wildling problem... If he turns out to be Lyanna's son, then all the better as Lyanna was the person they went out to war for or should have done so in the first place. He is an Expendable Lord of Winterfell as well; if a time comes that they aren't in the hard situation they are in now, with Iron Throne and White Walkers are no more a threat for the North and Jon doesn't suit their needs, they can simply ask him to abdicate in favor of Rickon or else, since he was a sworn brother and the lord commander of NW and he arguably deserted his post and interfered with realm politics by aiding Stannis.

In all honesty, "Watch doesn't take parts" is just a load of rubbish, especially for Northerners. It's mostly them who keep the Watch running and also them who benefits most from it, I doubt any Northern Lords, especially Lord of Winterfell, whether King in da Norf or Warden, would say no to Watch interference if it aids them and this is shown with Mountain Clansmen aiding Stannis, who was a relief aid in all but name, sent to them by Jon. They also bring two wetnurses for little monster, Jon's foster child and noble guests for Alys' wedding, which Jon arrenged as the patriarch/lord of house (Kar)Stark and the North. I think Jon is any northern lords Watch dreams come true.

I agree with most of this post. In addition to Jon being named Robb's heir (which is huge regardless of the fact that Robb was operating under the presumption that his trueborn siblings were either lost or dead), Jon is the perfect candidate for the Kingship of the North. And I too am beginning to believe that "the Watch takes no part in the affairs of the Seven Kingdoms" is a burning dumpster of a lie. You can't find that any in their vows. I think that's just a tradition born out of a ploy/scheme (one that will be revealed in Winds) that is meant to:

  • keep the Watch subserviently co-dependent and isolated
  • prevent the Watch from becoming a entity that can police the affairs and activities of kings and high lords - especially the ones in the North
  • maintain a sense of brotherhood in the Watch that prevent divisions and in-fighting based upon politics, religion, class, etc.

After all, we have gotten some hints from Roose Bolton, the Umbers and Cregan Karstark that not only confirm that theory but that the early Targaryens (particularly Queen Alysanne) were working to break down those barriers and give the Watch more political and economical power. On top of that, Ned Stark's hopes of re-populating the Gift and re-garrisoning abandoned castles along the Wall with noble families and Stannis Baratheon's sentiments of expanding beyond the Wall and bringing the wildlings under the control of the Iron Throne don't seem to be new ideas.

 

On 9/25/2018 at 9:59 AM, a black swan said:

Rob never thinks Arya is with the Lannisters. He says she's missing and presumably dead. He tells Cat that that Arya is dead. But fast-forward a bit to the scene where Rob reads out his Will in front of his witnesses and you see Arya is no longer included in the names of his dead siblings. Seems rather purposely ambiguous to me. 

I agree. It is purposely ambiguous.

I think Robb wanted to leave the door open for Arya to be welcomed home and/or become his successor if Jon declined or was indisposed. There was no way of proving that Arya was, in fact, dead and not just hiding. I also believe that he left open a loophole for Sansa to come back home even though she had been effectively disinherited.

On 9/24/2018 at 4:04 PM, nickdt said:

Funny thing is: Rickon is the only one left. 

Jon is the chosen successor for Robb, but when his heritage is revealed, Rickon will outrank him. 

Because of her wedding with Tyrion, Sansa is disinherited. Same with Arya, since Robb didn't knew if the Lannisters had her or not (It seems like people forget or overlook this). 

Bran is crippled and cannot have children and even if he can, he might choose too become the Three Eyed Raven and stay Beyond the Wall. 

Bran is not staying beyond the Wall. I am 95% sure that he is going to leave the Cave of the Bloodraven and return to Winterfell

In any case, I think it's important to remember that we don't even know if Rickon makes it back to Winterfell. Dead or alive.

He might be only ever be considered the Lord of Winterfell posthumously or in absentia. Does Davos even know that Stannis chose not to go to the Dreadfort? If Davos makes it to Skagos and convinces the Skagosi and Rickon to go along with him only to show up at the Dreadfort expecting to be greeted by Stannis and not Bolton loyalists, then they are all screwed.

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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