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Catalan thread continued


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5 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Spain is going crazy again. 

I keep reading how several European DA's are getting arrest warrants, like Finland (for Puigdemont) and Scotland (for Ponsati who is an university professor at St Andrews). 

And the EU is still staying silent, but then the EU Commission is apparently a place where nepotism rules :dunno:

I don't understand why the EU isn't taking the offer of Juncker: When Selmayr goes, I go! Best thing that would happen inside the EU for years. 

Oh, I have lost all the faith in Europe...

2 hours ago, Tijgy said:

And now Puigemont has been arrested at the German-Danish border

Just seen it... And apparently he could be charged for "High Treachery" there, from some months to 10 years, so basically much worse than Belgium, although not as much than in Spain.

Yesterday, I was thinking of how he'd be driving to Belgium, and I thought he'd not risk himself crossing either Germany or France (although then the only possibility was crossing the seas of the north of Europe), but the Spanish Intelligence had been spying him since he was in Finland.

There will be a huge demonstration taking place this afternoon in Barcelona.

PS: Ok, and now I am confused since I've read somewhere else that he could be charged for perpetual prison (that doesn't exist in Spain)...my lack of understanding in these matters doesn't make me fully understand the situation. Then, this would highly mean that he could stay in Spain 30 years in Prison...(I don't know if the non-violence "rebellion" could help him).

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2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

There will be a huge demonstration taking place this afternoon in Barcelona.

 

There was also one today also in Brussels. 

2 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yesterday, I was thinking of how he'd be driving to Belgium, and I thought he'd not risk himself crossing either Germany or France (although then the only possibility was crossing the seas of the north of Europe), but the Spanish Intelligence had been spying him since he was in Finland.

What was he actually doing in Finland? :dunno: Anyway, the German police was probably looking for him.

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6 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

There was also one today also in Brussels. 

What was he actually doing in Finland? :dunno: Anyway, the German police was probably looking for him.

I wonder. Why would they? Unless they were tipped off by Spanish intelligence. Looks fishy to me.

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15 minutes ago, Loge said:

I wonder. Why would they?

I don't know. I could tell you some reasons why the danish border is controled (new home secretary with a theme for border control, political controls on the danish side, actual law enforcement ). It pointless anyway, because you will see the things the way you want to see them. 

Maybe he even used a belgish car sign. Would surely raise some suspicion.

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12 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I don't know. I could tell you some reasons why the danish border is controled (new home secretary with a theme for border control, political controls on the danish side, actual law enforcement ). It pointless anyway, because you will see the things the way you want to see them. 

Maybe he even used a belgish car sign. Would surely raise some suspicion.

Has been a while since I last passed that border but to my knowledge there are no border controls on the German side. From what the German media reports he was pulled out on the autobahn some distance south of the border, not right at the border. 

Just checked the latest reports. They downright confirm that the German police was informed by the Spanish authorities. For those who speak German, here is a paragraph from Spiegel Online

Quote

Die finnischen Behörden hatten ihre Bereitschaft zur Festnahme erklärt, behaupteten aber, Puigdemont sei nicht auffindbar. Laut spanischen Medienberichten hatte Puigdemont für Samstagnachmittag einen Flug aus Finnland nach Belgien gebucht, diesen aber nicht genommen. Stattdessen machte er sich im Auto auf den Weg. Dort aber verfolgten spanische Ermittlungsbehörden seine Route - und informierten dann ihre deutschen Amtskollegen, die Puigdemont nach dem Grenzübertritt festnahmen.

 

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3 hours ago, Tijgy said:

There was also one today also in Brussels. 

Oh!!I didn't know, I knew there was one in Paris today.

Quote

What was he actually doing in Finland? :dunno: Anyway, the German police was probably looking for him.

He was invited to the Parliament. He wanted to return to Belgium.

As far as I've read in the news, the Spanish Intelligence was coordinated with the German one.

And now there are cutting roads in Catalonia and the demonstrations in Barcelona...

@Tijgy no, apparently he had gone there bc he was invited to the Parliament, not the university.

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21 minutes ago, Loge said:

Has been a while since I last passed that border but to my knowledge there are no border controls on the German side. From what the German media reports he was pulled out on the autobahn some distance south of the border, not right at the border. 

Just checked the latest reports. They downright confirm that the German police was informed by the Spanish authorities. For those who speak German, here is a paragraph from Spiegel Online

 

Ok, just what I've heard...

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:lol:

Oh, happy happy day!

Most of the ring-leaders of this pantomime are all under arrest. That’s what you’re in for when you try to pull a coup d’etat.

Yep, it seems that the repressive and naughty Spanish state got their way aided by -oh the gall if it!- the equally mean and repressive German state. 

:lol:

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This arrest puts the German courts in a rather uncomfortable position. They now have to decide whether or not Puigdemont can be extradited. And that means they have to assess the validity of the charges against him. One has to wonder why Germany took up this task when other countries preferred to look the other way when he was passing through.

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Indeed. One would think Seehofer would be more sympathetic to secessionist or regionalist movements, considering which party he belongs to...

High Treason sounds like an unlikely verdict though, considering German law requires the use of force to rule in that direction. A referendum is not the use of force, so...

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All the German courts have to check for the extradition if (one of) the charges have an equivalent in German law.

And while the articles on treason might be considered too dissimilar in the two countries, Spain was careful to throw some other charges in there in the hopes that one will lead to extradition.

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2 hours ago, Jon AS said:

All the German courts have to check for the extradition if (one of) the charges have an equivalent in German law.

And while the articles on treason might be considered too dissimilar in the two countries, Spain was careful to throw some other charges in there in the hopes that one will lead to extradition.

I guess the courts could take that view but that assumes that the rule of law is intact and justice there is just doing its work. But this case is politically motivated, so there is some reason to doubt the justification of the charges. Charge him with embezzlement because he used public funds for that referendum? I dunno. On the other hand this is a chance for the Spanish justice system to prove its independence and acquit him. I wouldn't bet on it, though.

 

On a side note, somebody on Wikipedia created a really great logo for the European arrest warrant.

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13 minutes ago, Loge said:

I guess the courts could take that view but that assumes that the rule of law is intact and justice there is just doing its work.

That's the basic assumption behind the European arrest warrant, though.

It's not for German judges to decide whether the Spanish government has a case against him, that has to be left to the Spanish justice system.

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1 hour ago, Jon AS said:

That's the basic assumption behind the European arrest warrant, though.

It's not for German judges to decide whether the Spanish government has a case against him, that has to be left to the Spanish justice system.

It's not quite so simple. Spain has to provide a document stating the nature of the charges. The Germain courts then decide if the stated crimes have their counterpart in German law. Given the political nature of this case I don't think the decision is as straightforward as it's painted in the press, i.e. a mere formality. In the end he probably will be extradited, though.

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58 minutes ago, Loge said:

It's not quite so simple. Spain has to provide a document stating the nature of the charges. The Germain courts then decide if the stated crimes have their counterpart in German law.

Yes, that's what I said earlier. The German authorities don't get to decide to not execute a European arrest warrant because they've decided the authorities of the country that issued it did so "for political reasons".

Which is presumably why the Spanish government made sure to add the embezzlement charge: even if the charge of treason is too different under Spanish law from the German version, the embezzlement is likely to be similar enough to trigger the extradition.

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1 hour ago, Jon AS said:

Yes, that's what I said earlier. The German authorities don't get to decide to not execute a European arrest warrant because they've decided the authorities of the country that issued it did so "for political reasons".

Which is presumably why the Spanish government made sure to add the embezzlement charge: even if the charge of treason is too different under Spanish law from the German version, the embezzlement is likely to be similar enough to trigger the extradition.

But that's still for a judge to decide. So while Germany is obliged to extradite provided certain criteria are met the courts still decide whether that's the case or not.

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I secretly had the hope that maybe this could let to a forced negotiation between Spain and Catalonia, because the only person that Rajoy obeys is Merkel. And from what I read yesterday the political partners of her don't like the extradition of Puigdemont?

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10 hours ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

Indeed. One would think Seehofer would be more sympathetic to secessionist or regionalist movements, considering which party he belongs to...

High Treason sounds like an unlikely verdict though, considering German law requires the use of force to rule in that direction. A referendum is not the use of force, so...

Is this always the case? Or does it exist a similar thing to rebellion even without the use of force/violence?

Apparently what the Spanish judge is trying to argue is that what they did also lead to sedition and could let to violence, and thus to them is equivalent to violence as well. Many constinutionalist scholars of the Spanish Constitution say that indeed, violence is needed, but the judge might just ignore that completely and proceed with the rebellion charges...

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It isn't really accidental that the new arrest warrant was issued at the time Puigdemont wasn't in Belgium. The Belgian Prosecutors are even saying "we are not going to search actively the remaining Catalan ministers" and let just ask more information of Spain

The Spanish Secret Police have apparently eight agents following him, and they are the ones who warned the German police.

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