Catalan thread continued

[Loge]

18 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I secretly had the hope that maybe this could let to a forced negotiation between Spain and Catalonia, because the only person that Rajoy obeys is Merkel. And from what I read yesterday the political partners of her don't like the extradition of Puigdemont?

The German federal government supports Rajoy. They say Catalonia is not our concern and the courts must decide on the extradition, not the government. 

[Meera of Tarth]

4 hours ago, Loge said:

The German federal government supports Rajoy. They say Catalonia is not our concern and the courts must decide on the extradition, not the government. 

Yes, well, any Government can't decide of course, but it is also obvious that the issue is political and after all these months it won't be resolved satisfactorily without the intervention of other intermediaries.

 

[Meera of Tarth]

21 hours ago, Tijgy said:

It isn't really accidental that the new arrest warrant was issued at the time Puigdemont wasn't in Belgium. The Belgian Prosecutors are even saying "we are not going to search actively the remaining Catalan ministers" and let just ask more information of Spain. 

The Spanish Secret Police have apparently eight agents following him, and they are the ones who warned the German police.

Thanks for sharing. Yes, I've just seen that apparently they were following the movements of his car from Waterloo.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

On 26.3.2018 at 8:52 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

Apparently what the Spanish judge is trying to argue is that what they did also lead to sedition and could let to violence, and thus to them is equivalent to violence as well. Many constinutionalist scholars of the Spanish Constitution say that indeed, violence is needed, but the judge might just ignore that completely and proceed with the rebellion charges...

Check one of the posts above. The embezzlement charge is what's gonna get Puigdemont into a plane to Spain. In the process Spain might be forced to drop the treason charge, however. But that's for the courts and legal scholars to figure out.

[Tijgy]

The embezzlement charge is ridiculous IMO because it is about the fact he used state money to pay for a referendum which was in the end voted by the Catalan Parliament and actually the one of the reasons they were elected. (IIRC). 

(This is a moral POV, not legally which will probably an another answer). 

Some months ago a colonel of the Catalan police (Puigdemont's bodyguard) found a tracker on his car. They gave it apparently to the Belgian police.

This colonel and the two agents who were with Puidgemont on his Finland trip are apparently also under investigation. 

Anyway, I am really pissed that secret Spanish police were tracking someone on Belgian territory. 

 

[Meera of Tarth]

26 minutes ago, Notone said:

Check one of the posts above. The embezzlement charge is what's gonna get Puigdemont into a plane to Spain. In the process Spain might be forced to drop the treason charge, however. But that's for the courts and legal scholars to figure out.

I've heard that it's the most likely thing, but I don't think it's completely sure still.

And  then, I don't understand what could happen next? People accused of the same thing (rebellion) in 5 different countries, some facing jail for that and others not?

This is becoming more complicated every day...

[Meera of Tarth]

23 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

The embezzlement charge is ridiculous IMO because it is about the fact he used state money to pay for a referendum which was in the end voted by the Catalan Parliament and actually the one of the reasons they were elected. (IIRC). 

That's true. It was voted. Although what really concerns me are the rebellion charges that can mean 30 years of prison and the fact that all the constitutionalist scholars say that violence is needed and that doesn't stop the judge to say they are charged for that....which is huge.

Quote

(This is a moral POV, not legally which will probably another an answer). 

Some months ago a colonel of the Catalan police (Puigdemont's bodyguard) found a tracker on his car. They gave it apparently to the Belgian police.

This colonel and the two agents who were with Puidgemont on his Finland trip are apparently also under investigation. 

Anyway, I am really pissed that secret Spanish police were tracking someone on Belgian territory. 

 

I am not surprised....when he was about to be elected in the Catalan Parliament they were looking at the sewers of the Parliament and forcing people to stop their cars in the bordier with France and look at the trunks just in case he was inside....

[A Horse Named Stranger]

5 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I've heard that it's the most likely thing, but I don't think it's completely sure still.

And  then, I don't understand what could happen next? People accused of the same thing (rebellion) in 5 different countries, some facing jail for that and others not?

This is becoming more complicated every day...

I am not a lawyer, so this is more or less the media summary.

The German criminal law doesn't have a rebellion offense, the closest thing is high treason - for which the use of force is an integral part of the legal. Embezzlement however is a charge that is also in the German criminal law. So based on that charge Puigdemont can (and probably will) be shipped off to Spain to deal with him.

Morality and legality are not synomous. So I will play the devil's advocat and take the Spanish goverments position. Puigdemont used state money for an illegal referendum. Using state money for an illegal activity = bad idea. If you follow that logic, you can hardly argue that an illegal referendum is the right way to spend public funds. Thus it is embezzlement. That at least sounds like a legal coherent position. I don't know how the Spanish state and Catalunya collect taxes, and how much autonomy the Catalans have with regards to their finances, but that's probably for the Spanish courts to sort out.

What happens if Spain dropped the rebellion charges for the extradiction process and would then decide to renew the rebellion charges once he is in Spanish custody? Now that would certainly be interesting on political and diplomatic level.

[Tijgy]

1 hour ago, Notone said:

What happens if Spain dropped the rebellion charges for the extradiction process and would then decide to renew the rebellion charges once he is in Spanish custody? Now that would certainly be interesting on political and diplomatic level.

It is actually not sure if Spain would be able to do that in accordance to EU Law: 

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Possible prosecution for other offences

1. Each Member State may notify the General Secretariat of the Council that, in its relations with other Member States that have given the same notification, consent is presumed to have been given for the prosecution, sentencing or detention with a view to the carrying out of a custodial sentence or detention order for an offence committed prior to his or her surrender, other than that for which he or she was surrendered, unless in a particular case the executing judicial authority states otherwise in its decision on surrender.

2. Except in the cases referred to in paragraphs 1 and 3, a person surrendered may not be prosecuted, sentenced or otherwise deprived of his or her liberty for an offence committed prior to his or her surrender other than that for which he or she was surrendered.

3. Paragraph 2 does not apply in the following cases:

(a) when the person having had an opportunity to leave the territory of the Member State to which he or she has been surrendered has not done so within 45 days of his or her final discharge, or has returned to that territory after leaving it;

(b) the offence is not punishable by a custodial sentence or detention order;

(c) the criminal proceedings do not give rise to the application of a measure restricting personal liberty;

(d) when the person could be liable to a penalty or a measure not involving the deprivation of liberty, in particular a financial penalty or a measure in lieu thereof, even if the penalty or measure may give rise to a restriction of his or her personal liberty;

(e) when the person consented to be surrendered, where appropriate at the same time as he or she renounced the speciality rule, in accordance with Article 13;

(f) when the person, after his/her surrender, has expressly renounced entitlement to the speciality rule with regard to specific offences preceding his/her surrender. Renunciation shall be given before the competent judicial authorities of the issuing Member State and shall be recorded in accordance with that State's domestic law. The renunciation shall be drawn up in such a way as to make clear that the person has given it voluntarily and in full awareness of the consequences. To that end, the person shall have the right to legal counsel;

(g) where the executing judicial authority which surrendered the person gives its consent in accordance with paragraph 4.

4. A request for consent shall be submitted to the executing judicial authority, accompanied by the information mentioned in Article 8(1) and a translation as referred to in Article 8(2). Consent shall be given when the offence for which it is requested is itself subject to surrender in accordance with the provisions of this Framework Decision. Consent shall be refused on the grounds referred to in Article 3 and otherwise may be refused only on the grounds referred to in Article 4. The decision shall be taken no later than 30 days after receipt of the request.

For the situations mentioned in Article 5 the issuing Member State must give the guarantees provided for therein.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Notone said:

Morality and legality are not synomous. So I will play the devil's advocat and take the Spanish goverments position. Puigdemont used state money for an illegal referendum. Using state money for an illegal activity = bad idea. If you follow that logic, you can hardly argue that an illegal referendum is the right way to spend public funds. Thus it is embezzlement. That at least sounds like a legal coherent position. I don't know how the Spanish state and Catalunya collect taxes, and how much autonomy the Catalans have with regards to their finances, but that's probably for the Spanish courts to sort out.

 

Yeah, that is true  which is why I said it was a moral POV. But you can actually also say (legally) criminalizing the fact that an elected government and parliament are enabling their citizens to have a right to vote about an important issue is a violation of the freedom of speech and an infringement of democracy. 

This isn't a criminal issue. It is a political one. Spain is just using criminal law to oppress people's political opinions. It isn't very difficult to use law for your own political gains. A good lawyer is actually the lawyer who can manipulate the law in his own favor. It isn't an exact science. 

The biggest issue of this is actually this is the right way to take your steps to independence or more autonomy. It differs a lot from the actions of the ETA or the IRA - who used violence to get want they wanted. The Easter Rebellion is a very sad time in history because a group of Irish independence fighters decided to chose a violent way to get their desires which escalated the situation into repression and a civil war. 

 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Just now, Tijgy said:

It is actually not sure if Spain would be able to do that in accordance to EU Law: 

That's why I said that would be interesting on a political/diplomatic level. The problem for Spain is, they can hardly charge some people with the trumped up rebellion stuff, while Puigdemont is just standing trial for embezzlement. Of course if they ignore EU laws and procedures, that thing will get to EUCJ and will probably get overturned (well, in court and on open sea you're in god's hand as the saying goes). And it would put European arrest warrants into question, if a member state doesn't play by the rules.

But that's a headache for the central goverment in Spain to sort out.

[The hairy bear]

18 hours ago, Notone said:

So I will play the devil's advocat and take the Spanish goverments position. Puigdemont used state money for an illegal referendum. Using state money for an illegal activity = bad idea. If you follow that logic, you can hardly argue that an illegal referendum is the right way to spend public funds. Thus it is embezzlement. That at least sounds like a legal coherent position. I don't know how the Spanish state and Catalunya collect taxes, and how much autonomy the Catalans have with regards to their finances, but that's probably for the Spanish courts to sort out.

The Catalan finances had been intervened by the Spanish government months before the celebration of the referendum. The bank accounts of the Catalan government were blocked and every payment had to be individually authorized by the Spanish ministry. The Spanish police and intelligence agency have been thoroughly investigating the issue and have not been able to identify a single public cent expended on the referendum.

The referendum was organized by volunteers (I should know: I was one of them) and financed by private contributions from volunteers.

So even if the embezzlement is one of the accusations that the fiscal threw in, and it's true that this one is easier to accommodate other jurisdictions, the truth remains that it will be impossible to prove on a court. Just as it's obvious that there was no violence to qualify as rebellion, there was no public expenditure to qualify as embezzlement.

[Meera of Tarth]

21 hours ago, Notone said:

I am not a lawyer, so this is more or less the media summary.

The German criminal law doesn't have a rebellion offense, the closest thing is high treason - for which the use of force is an integral part of the legal. Embezzlement however is a charge that is also in the German criminal law. So based on that charge Puigdemont can (and probably will) be shipped off to Spain to deal with him.

Yes, it is more likely that he would be extradited for this one. Although that doesn't change the fact that the judge in Spain still considers that he shoud be charged for rebellion even if there never was violence, and the scholars say that it is indeed needed just like in the most similar crime in Germany to the one of rebellion.

Quote

Morality and legality are not synomous. So I will play the devil's advocat and take the Spanish goverments position. Puigdemont used state money for an illegal referendum. Using state money for an illegal activity = bad idea. If you follow that logic, you can hardly argue that an illegal referendum is the right way to spend public funds. Thus it is embezzlement. That at least sounds like a legal coherent position. I don't know how the Spanish state and Catalunya collect taxes, and how much autonomy the Catalans have with regards to their finances, but that's probably for the Spanish courts to sort out.

What happens if Spain dropped the rebellion charges for the extradiction process and would then decide to renew the rebellion charges once he is in Spanish custody? Now that would certainly be interesting on political and diplomatic level.

This would be really huge! Could that happen? I thought it could not, but I'm not an expert n this matter.

[Tijgy]

And now the two agents who were with him on his trip, have been arrests by the Spanish police. 

[Meera of Tarth]

31 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

And now the two agents who were with him on his trip, have been arrests by the Spanish police. 

And they want the Mayor of Girona to go to courts for some speech she said...now that is on the cards that she could elected President of Catalonia...it's unbelievable.

[Meera of Tarth]

20 hours ago, Tijgy said:

The biggest issue of this is actually this is the right way to take your steps to independence or more autonomy. It differs a lot from the actions of the ETA or the IRA - who used violence to get want they wanted. The Easter Rebellion is a very sad time in history because a group of Irish independence fighters decided to chose a violent way to get their desires which escalated the situation into repression and a civil war. 

That's why when those who were writing that article of rebellion, they wanted to make sure that if something ever happened to a person who wanted the independence but their way of achieving had nothing to do with violence like the terrorists, they'd not be charged for that, because the means of trying to achieve it are completely different. But it seems that they don't care about that now....

[Tijgy]

And now his travel companions also have been arrested. 

I am actually wondering why in god's name they have returned to Spain?

[Meera of Tarth]

44 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

And now his travel companions also have been arrested. 

I am actually wondering why in god's name they have returned to Spain?

Who has returned to Spain?

[Meera of Tarth]

@Tijgy is it true that 55 Flemish MP's have written a letter to Rajoy or something like this?

[A Horse Named Stranger]

21 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, it is more likely that he would be extradited for this one. Although that doesn't change the fact that the judge in Spain still considers that he shoud be charged for rebellion even if there never was violence, and the scholars say that it is indeed needed just like in the most similar crime in Germany to the one of rebellion.

This would be really huge! Could that happen? I thought it could not, but I'm not an expert n this matter.

In theory, no. Check the follow up posts on that. If Spain decided to do so anyway, Puigdemont's lawyers would take this thing before the ECJ.

21 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The Catalan finances had been intervened by the Spanish government months before the celebration of the referendum. The bank accounts of the Catalan government were blocked and every payment had to be individually authorized by the Spanish ministry. The Spanish police and intelligence agency have been thoroughly investigating the issue and have not been able to identify a single public cent expended on the referendum.

The referendum was organized by volunteers (I should know: I was one of them) and financed by private contributions from volunteers.

So even if the embezzlement is one of the accusations that the fiscal threw in, and it's true that this one is easier to accommodate other jurisdictions, the truth remains that it will be impossible to prove on a court. Just as it's obvious that there was no violence to qualify as rebellion, there was no public expenditure to qualify as embezzlement.

Thanks for the clarification. But that sounds a bit unlikely that really no public cent was spent on the referendum. Volunteers and private campaign financing is all good - however if there was really no expenditures paid for by the catalan goverment, that would be really impressive. I suspected that at least some public servants (including police) had clocked in on some extra work hours to ensure the safety and integrity of the whole voting process.

[Loge]

17 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Who has returned to Spain?

According to German news reports, two members of the Catalan police who had accompanied Puigdemon.