Catalan thread continued

[Mentat]

3 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I'm actually quite concerned about the upcoming new General elections due to the rejection f the budget, since now the likelihood of PP/C's governing with VOX  is higher now and this combination is even worse than Rajoy. Also...with the trial in the middle...especially for Catalonia.

sometimes it's  better the devil you know...

I agree. The pro-independence parties should have tried to work with Sánchez (if they were aiming for some kind of dialogue with Spain). Last few months in Spanish politics have been harsh. Sánchez has drawn considerable aggro from right-wing parties for a decidedly lukewarm policy regarding Catalonia (which basically amounted to speaking with them without making any actual concessions). When the Catalans requested a third party person to witness these political negotiations (what has been called a "Relator"), the right went up in flames, calling it a national humiliation.

The whole situation, I think, was basically going nowhere (I may have said as much in the past). Sánchez was trying to negotiate some amenable solution with Catalan pro-independence parties... which didn't involve actual independence or a referendum. The right were screaming bloody murder each time the smallest concession was made. The pro-independence parties, in the meanwhile, were being the worst political allies ever, pulling their support on a whim and making inflammatory comments to the press (Spain is a fascist state lacking true democracy, yadda yadda).

Anyway, Spanish politics is currently mired in the Catalan imbroglio, with the result that nothing at all can advance on any other front (and the Catalan front has been stagnant for at least a year). Spain doesn't have a budget, but neither does Catalonia (they're still working with the 2017 one) or Barcelona. It's like Brexit without a limit date. Sánchez's hand has been forced, and he pretty much has to summon a general election, but it won't make anything better. People are becoming more and more tired of the whole Catalan situation, and these people are turning further and further to the right.

[Meera of Tarth]

I watched a great part of the trial yesterday, with Forn and Junqueras. The strategies seem to be very different. I think Forn's better, since he is speaking less and seems to be better advised by his lawyer. Junqueras, however, speaks with his professor's loquacity and great range of vocabulary..... which is always nice to listen to, though.

SO well, apparently today President Torra and ex-President Puigdemont had to give a speech about the trial in the European Parliament but Tajani didn't give them permission, saying security was not guaranteed after PP, C's, PSOE and C's asked him to not let them speak.

[Tijgy]

I heard they asked even to arrest Puidgemont

[Meera of Tarth]

8 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

I heard they asked even to arrest Puidgemont

yeah....I think it was one of those political parties...PP (but I am not completely sure).

 

[Mentat]

On 2/15/2019 at 3:34 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

I watched a great part of the trial yesterday, with Forn and Junqueras. The strategies seem to be very different. I think Forn's better, since he is speaking less and seems to be better advised by his lawyer. Junqueras, however, speaks with his professor's loquacity and great range of vocabulary..... which is always nice to listen to, though.

Junqueras is a very good speaker. I imagine their strategies will complement each other in the end (as they will either all be found guilty or all absolved).

 

On 2/15/2019 at 3:34 PM, Meera of Tarth said:

SO well, apparently today President Torra and ex-President Puigdemont had to give a speech about the trial in the European Parliament but Tajani didn't give them permission, saying security was not guaranteed after PP, C's, PSOE and C's asked him to not let them speak. 

To be completely fair, Puigdemont is a fugitive from Spanish justice, so he probably shouldn't be invited to give conferences at the EU parliament (even if there's no standing euro-warrant against him). Torra is a different can of fish (and if he were on his own, I imagine Spanish protestations would have been far more mellow).

No one is going to get arrested unless Spain re-issues a euro-warrant (and then it would be up to the Belgian authorities obviously, not the EU... and they have not been very sympathetic in the past).

Anyway, the only thing that's going to happen is that Torra and Puigdemont will have to find a different venue. The EU is going to have Spain's back for the foreseeable future on this particular issue. Catalonia knows this (and it's one of the reasons they haven't been more cavalier with unilateral actions).

[Tijgy]

8 hours ago, Mentat said:

Anyway, the only thing that's going to happen is that Torra and Puigdemont will have to find a different venue. The EU is going to have Spain's back for the foreseeable future on this particular issue. Catalonia knows this (and it's one of the reasons they haven't been more cavalier with unilateral actions).

 

Hahaha, the Speaker of the Flemish Parliamant did something: 

Hahaha

I am not sure Spain and the EU is going to laugh about it, but it is kind of funny that the Speaker  of Flemish  Parliament is demanding the President of the EU Parliament to explain his position in the Flemish Parliament.  

[Meera of Tarth]

And the conference will now take place in a hotel isn't it?

[Tijgy]

54 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

And the conference will now take place in a hotel isn't it?

Yes. Read an article about it in the Flemish press (https://www.demorgen.be/buitenland/puigdemont-en-torra-halen-uit-naar-europees-parlement-democratie-europa-staat-op-het-spel-b0443de4/).  

[Mentat]

14 hours ago, Tijgy said:

I am not sure Spain and the EU is going to laugh about it, but it is kind of funny that the Speaker  of Flemish  Parliament is demanding the President of the EU Parliament to explain his position in the Flemish Parliament.

I'd be interested to know his response (my guess is Tajani will simply ignore him, though).

I have to say, I'm with Tajani here. The EU is under no obligation to provide a venue, stage or pulpit for anyone. Specially if this someone intends to make inflammatory comments and is attempting to embarrass an EU member state. They can give their conference in the hotel.

[Tijgy]

9 hours ago, Mentat said:

I'd be interested to know his response (my guess is Tajani will simply ignore him, though).

I have to say, I'm with Tajani here. The EU is under no obligation to provide a venue, stage or pulpit for anyone. Specially if this someone intends to make inflammatory comments and is attempting to embarrass an EU member state. They can give their conference in the hotel.

The EU shouldn't take a side. 

They are allowing VOX to held a conference in the Parliament: https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/european-parliament-event-far-right-party-vox-catalonia_356364_102.html

MEP's of the Parliament should be allowed to invite everyone they want to their Parliamant; even if they would embarrass an EU Member State. Spain cannot tell to MEP's representing Belgian/Flemish what they should or shouldn't do.

[Mentat]

13 hours ago, Tijgy said:

The EU shouldn't take a side.

I kind of disagree. The EU's current stance on the issue is that it's a matter of internal policy of the member state, so anything the member state does (unless it's a gross violation of human rights) is good and golden. Thus, if Spain wants to recognize Catalonia's right to self-determination that's great, and if it doesn't, that's hunky-dory. Whatever the Catalan's might think about it... is ultimately Spain's problem and not a EU concern. The EU also says that if part of State secedes from a member state then the seceding part has to reapply for EU membership from scratch. This has not, to my knowledge, ever been put to the test, and there are people who say that, in the case of an amiable secession, it's likely the EU would make things for the seceding state considerably easier. While I kind of agree, I'm sure no one missed the veiled threats the were thrown around during the Scottish referendum campaign (and that was a referendum authorized by the UK parliament).

Anyway, all this is to say that "Spain can do whatever it likes, and if Catalonia secedes, we'd kick them out of the EU" is already pretty clearly taking a side (poorly disguised as considering something a question of internal policy of a member state and thus not wanting any involvement).

I don't think this is a desirable state of affairs. The EU should have a policy regarding territory and state integrity. I know politically this is a very tall order, but this is a problem the EU will have to deal with sooner or later, and they're currently just burying their head in the sand. Now the policy could be aggressively against secession, aggressively for it or somewhere in the middle, but at least they could intervene according to their set policy and everyone would know where they stand. Saying "It's Spain's problem" certainly gives Spain a lot of leeway, but it leaves Spain with a big problem I think it could use some help solving.

Anyway, this is just my opinion (and possibly not a very popular one).

 

14 hours ago, Tijgy said:

They are allowing VOX to held a conference in the Parliament: https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/european-parliament-event-far-right-party-vox-catalonia_356364_102.html

While I strongly dislike Vox, the speakers invited are not currently fugitives from Spanish justice... That said, I'm going to agree with you on this one. Just looking at the title of the conference you can see it's going to be inflammatory and objectionable. They should be politely invited to go hold their conference elsewhere.

 

14 hours ago, Tijgy said:

MEP's of the Parliament should be allowed to invite everyone they want to their Parliamant; even if they would embarrass an EU Member State. Spain cannot tell to MEP's representing Belgian/Flemish what they should or shouldn't do.

I'm sure Spain can't tell Flemish MEP's what to do. MEP's don't own the Parliament, though. It's an institution governed by a set of rules. If those rules say it's president has final say over who does and doesn't get to give a conference then I don't think that's beyond the pale.

The EU shouldn't, in my opinion, do things that are against the interests of one of it's member states without good reason. If you look at the content of what they actually said in this conference I think it's abundantly clear the EU was right to have them seek another venue for their conference. 

[Tijgy]

14 hours ago, Mentat said:

I kind of disagree. The EU's current stance on the issue is that it's a matter of internal policy of the member state, so anything the member state does (unless it's a gross violation of human rights) is good and golden. Thus, if Spain wants to recognize Catalonia's right to self-determination that's great, and if it doesn't, that's hunky-dory. Whatever the Catalan's might think about it... is ultimately Spain's problem and not a EU concern. The EU also says that if part of State secedes from a member state then the seceding part has to reapply for EU membership from scratch. This has not, to my knowledge, ever been put to the test, and there are people who say that, in the case of an amiable secession, it's likely the EU would make things for the seceding state considerably easier. While I kind of agree, I'm sure no one missed the veiled threats the were thrown around during the Scottish referendum campaign (and that was a referendum authorized by the UK parliament).

Anyway, all this is to say that "Spain can do whatever it likes, and if Catalonia secedes, we'd kick them out of the EU" is already pretty clearly taking a side (poorly disguised as considering something a question of internal policy of a member state and thus not wanting any involvement).

I don't think this is a desirable state of affairs. The EU should have a policy regarding territory and state integrity. I know politically this is a very tall order, but this is a problem the EU will have to deal with sooner or later, and they're currently just burying their head in the sand. Now the policy could be aggressively against secession, aggressively for it or somewhere in the middle, but at least they could intervene according to their set policy and everyone would know where they stand. Saying "It's Spain's problem" certainly gives Spain a lot of leeway, but it leaves Spain with a big problem I think it could use some help solving.

Anyway, this is just my opinion (and possibly not a very popular one).

 

If EU takes any side, it should be on the respect of human rights. IMO They are in this case refusing to do this. 

The problem with the right of self-determination (which is in fact a human right - of the third generation) is that it is mostly recognized only for ex-colonies and not for regions in Europe although those regions were never really been able to decide if they wanted to be part of the current nations. 

IMO the EU should protect it's citizens, like the rights of the Catalans regarding their right to free speech, and not the Member States. But the fact it doesn't actually shows (again) the democratic deficit of the Union.

Anyway, they were able to visit - according to me - the most important parliament in Brussels  - Brussels has eight parliaments (Federal (Chamber and Senate), Flemish, French-speaking Community, Brussels Region, European and the three Councils of the three Community Commissions)

 

[Meera of Tarth]

what happened today in the trial? I could not pay attention, I didn't have time

[Mentat]

8 hours ago, Tijgy said:

If EU takes any side, it should be on the respect of human rights.

While the EU does protect human rights, democracy and the rule of law as a matter of policy, it's not really a humanitarian organization. That said...

8 hours ago, Tijgy said:

The problem with the right of self-determination (which is in fact a human right - of the third generation) is that it is mostly recognized only for ex-colonies and not for regions in Europe although those regions were never really been able to decide if they wanted to be part of the current nations. 

The right of self-determination is not one recognized in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union. What you identify as a problem is actually a feature. The UN Charter right of self-determination was meant to protect people under a foreign occupation, certainly not cases like Catalonia (which has always been a part of Spain and enjoys very high levels of political representation and self-government). Otherwise States would not have signed it in the first place. Under international law, self-determination yields to national sovereignty and territorial integrity except in very specific cases. More extreme interpretations of the right do exist, but they're extremely fringe (and not supported by the UN).

9 hours ago, Tijgy said:

IMO the EU should protect it's citizens, like the rights of the Catalans regarding their right to free speech, and not the Member States. But the fact it doesn't actually shows (again) the democratic deficit of the Union.

The right of free speech does not include the right to a venue in the European Parliament (or anywhere else, for that matter...). If the moderators on this internet forum decide to ban me because they don't like what I'm saying or the way I'm saying it they're not impinging on my freedom of speech. This is Ran's forum, and it's up to him to regulate membership. I can always find a different internet forum more aligned with my ideas, start my own forum or blog, etc. Puigdemont can hold press conferences, publish opinion pieces in The Guardian, etc. The notion that his right to free speech is being curtailed is ridiculous.

9 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Anyway, they were able to visit - according to me - the most important parliament in Brussels  - Brussels has eight parliaments (Federal (Chamber and Senate), Flemish, French-speaking Community, Brussels Region, European and the three Councils of the three Community Commissions)

Then all is good It's rather surprising that the seat of the Flemish parliament is in Brussels rather than Flanders...

7 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

what happened today in the trial? I could not pay attention, I didn't have time

Borràs, Mundó, Rull and Bassa were questioned regarding the organization of the referendum (where the ballot-boxes came from, etc.) and the unilateral declaration of independence. Their declarations were mostly that they had no personal involvement in organizing the referendum and that the unilateral declaration of independence was an exclusively political statement that didn't contravene the Constitutional Court.

[Meera of Tarth]

18 hours ago, Mentat said:

 

 

 

Borràs, Mundó, Rull and Bassa were questioned regarding the organization of the referendum (where the ballot-boxes came from, etc.) and the unilateral declaration of independence. Their declarations were mostly that they had no personal involvement in organizing the referendum and that the unilateral declaration of independence was an exclusively political statement that didn't contravene the Constitutional Court.

Thanks!

[Tijgy]

On 2/21/2019 at 8:57 AM, Mentat said:

Then all is good It's rather surprising that the seat of the Flemish parliament is in Brussels rather than Flanders...

On 2/21/2019 at 1:36 AM, Meera of Tarth said:

The history of the Belgian State Structure or the structure itself is quite complicated. 

But Belgium has a parallel federal structure with three regions (competent for agriculture, ...) and three communities (competent for education, ...). The three regions are Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels - each territorial competent for the territory of the region. The three communities are the Flemish, French-speaking and the German-speaking. The German-speaking community is territorial competent for the nine German-speaking communities, the Flemish community for Flanders, The French-speaking community for Wallonia with exclusion of the nine German-speaking communities and both the Flemish community and the French-speaking community for Brussels. 

Map

The Flemish Parliament is actually the Parliament of the Flemish Community. (IIRC) The Flemish Region doesn't have a Parliamant. It was decided the Parliament of the Flemish Community could exercise the competences of the Flemish Region; only the MEP's from the Brussels' Region doesn't have a vote in the decision-making process. To conclude, the Parliament is located in part of its territory.  And they chose Brussels to preserve the old link between Brussels and the Flemish - Brussels actually used to be a Flemish city although to say it still is would be a lie IMHO. Nevertheless, although the number of the Flemish living in Brussels really declined (less than 10 % while they used to the majority), there are still Flemish there like my grandmother, my parents grew up there, a lot of Flemish work there, ... so the city is still very important for the Flemish. 

[Mentat]

On 2/22/2019 at 6:08 PM, Tijgy said:

The history of the Belgian State Structure or the structure itself is quite complicated.

It is indeed, but thank you for the education!

[Meera of Tarth]

On 2/19/2019 at 6:16 PM, Tijgy said:

The EU shouldn't take a side. 

They are allowing VOX to held a conference in the Parliament: https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/european-parliament-event-far-right-party-vox-catalonia_356364_102.html

MEP's of the Parliament should be allowed to invite everyone they want to their Parliamant; even if they would embarrass an EU Member State. Spain cannot tell to MEP's representing Belgian/Flemish what they should or shouldn't do.

Yes it is tomorrow, right?

[Mentat]

Sorry to necro this thread, but the sentencing against the Catalan politicians involved in the secession referendum just came out today (as reported generally in the news, here's a link to The Guardian).

A bit of a mixed bag. They were found not guilty of rebellion but guilty of sedition, misallocation of public funds and disobeying a court order, with sentences of between 9 and 13 years prison and bans of holding public office for most of them. That said, though the prosecution requested the court rule the defendants should spend at least half of their sentence in jail the court refused to do so, which means after having spent a quarter of their sentencing in jail they could be out on probation. Since most of them have already spent two years in prison, this could be relatively soon.

Likely there will be a human rights violation case bought before the ECJ on this issue. There do seem to be some irregularities regarding the judicial process (though in my opinion they're quite minor), so the Catalan politicians might have a case (though the ECJ will only rule on any possible violation of human rights or lack of due process, it will not review the sentencing given by the Spanish court).

 

[Meera of Tarth]

What a shame. Especially for Carme Forcadell,President of The Parliament and the Jordis.